Illegals Plague Berkeley Streets

Published on April 21st, 2005

All pics taken today.

You can’t miss these guys, they are all over California. Years ago the INS would round them up or at least make them scatter once in awhile. Now there are many more and it’s all in the open. This shot was taken near the boutique shopping area on Fourth Street in Berkeley. There are a couple of building contractor suppliers in the area and these guys hang out looking for day work. One in ten may speak English, if you are lucky. All get paid cash which they then send to Mexico thus robbing the state of income while demanding free services.

Here is a group one block away having their meeting with the American advisor. These advisors are people who walk around from group to group advising them of their rights and privileges so they know how to get social services and how to deal with the police. Exactly who these “advisors” are I haven’t been able to find out and I suspect they are part of an outreach group, an NGO or who knows who. But they make sure these guys get all the free goods and services they can.

You can clearly see these guys even as you drive by on the freeway.

Further down the freeway in Richmond at the Orchard Supply parking lot you often see anywhere from 10-50 of these guys hanging out. Again, this is clearly visible from the freeway. If I can see them I assume the INS can see them too.

Here I show about 15.

Here’s a typical view from a car in a Berkeley residential neighborhood. All these guys shown appear to be illegals.

Your town is next.

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# 1 Ed Campbell said, on April 21st, 2005 at 4:13 pm

My town has been there quite a while. One of the primo places to hang out is in front of the State Employment Office! Why the hell not?

Management of the state employment system was outsourced to India by the last [Republican] governor. The current [Democrat] governor never brought the jobs back. He does, however, hold his own personal meetings with Vicente Fox about mutual problems — mostly folks who oppose illegal immigration being the “problem”.

We have lots of well-meaning Liberals who get all pissed off at me — outspoken as a Progressive — for “selling out” and wanting legit borders. But, Campbell’s always been a workingclass dude and I have too many friends who work construction — who’ve lost their jobs to illegals who work in peonage for peon’s wages.

The INS isn’t allowed in town, by the way. It’s agin’ local law!

# 2 Frank IBC said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 12:23 am

How are you able to tell that they are “illegal” just from looking at them?

# 3 Jojo said, on April 21st, 2005 at 8:30 pm

Take the 3rd Ave West exit off of 101 in San Mateo, CA. They have a nice big city sign a couple of blocks down that says where the meeting location for “workers” is. This is for people looking to pick up some [mostly] undocumented day workers.

U.S. borders are meaningless these days. Sure, illegal’s help keep prices lower, but the cost is that U.S. workers with limited education, for instance, those that have dropped out of high school, can’t even find menial labor jobs to do. Lowly educated people without jobs often leads to more crime and social unrest.

For instance, the dropout rate in Oakland, CA may be as high as 52% (see: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/04/05/MNGM6C3CB51.DTL )! And Oakland has a sky-high crime and murder rate. Empty minds with nothing to occupy them is always a sure recipe for unrest.

We could, of course, invade Mexico and make them part of the USA. After all, if so many of them want to come here, there shouldn’t be much resistance. They’ll probably greet us with flowers since after the “merger”, they won’t have to travel to the USA. They’ll be “here’ already!

But in reality, the ONLY practical way to address the illegal immigration problem is to institute strong enforcement of immigration laws along with heavy fines against employers who hire illegal labor. However, I doubt our law makers have the backbone to go against their corporate business backers and do this.

But giving illegal’s easy access to our country is only one facet of the problems that will eventually, as a country, tear us asunder.

The offshoring/outsourcing of manufacturing and low to mid-level white collar jobs is what will really do the most damage to our economy and country over time. When educated young people and career changers no longer have an entry point into the work force at the white collar level, more tinder will be added to this fire.

Oh sure, the standard retort is: people will become “innovators”. But how do you learn to innovate? Will everyone graduating from their 2 or 4 year average colleges, do so prepared to innovate? Hell no! It takes years of experience in an industry or specialty to learn the basics before one can even begin to see what needs to be “innovated”. How will this happen if there are no jobs to enter at?

Unemployment figures are artificially manipulated by many governments to seem to be lower than they really are. For instance, in the USA’s case, the unemployment calculation eliminates (doesn’t count) those that are deemed to not be actively looking for work. This “adjustment” is based on a small sample that is extrapolated and is highly inaccurate. Also, anyone over 16 who has worked at least 1 hour during the last survey period is considered “fully employed”. While the government and the mainstream media focus on the banner number (current 5.4% unemployment), the real number is probably closer to 10%. Yes, you can fool most of the people most of the time…

# 4 site admin said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 12:29 am

Frank, I think it’s cute that you make this stupid post. What is your point? That these jokers are NOT illegal? In this case these characters are in an area I frequent and I have chatted with them. I can assure you they have no papers. But I’m glad you need to question the obvious. At least the obvious to locals. That said there is probably one or two souls within these groups who is legal, although I doubt it.

I guess you think this situation is good, right?

And in the future leave a REAL email address or quit posting on here.

# 5 Frank IBC said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 2:44 am

Well, I would doubt that you’ve had the opportunity to talk to every single person that you highlight in your pictures, so it would appear that you can pick them out on sight. Or maybe all Latino day laborers are “illegal”?

# 6 Frank IBC said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 2:49 am

And for the record, I’m in favor of Operation Minuteman and other efforts to secure our borders. I just think our immigration laws should be made more realistic, so that people who are not security risks and who are willing to work, should not have to wait forever to get a visa.

# 7 Ima Fish said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 4:41 am

John, get with the times, they’re not “illegal”! They’re “undocumented workers”!

# 8 Ed Campbell said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 4:48 am

Incidentally, to add to my post, there are plenty of legal immigrants who can and should be brought into the labor pool.

I work for a small sub-contracting firm — owned by a husband-and-wife team. The hubby’s father was a legal immigrant from Mexico. Our policy is that we hire only folks with Green Cards. Company management policy is all about going by the book.

We only use licensed software. We don’t put folks out behind the wheel of a service truck who have arrests for DUI. We don’t cooperate with customers who want us to “slide” a little on Building Codes or EPA regulations. The company is successful and we all get to sleep peacefully at night.

We don’t follow any of the models suggested by the practices of the thug in the White House.

# 9 Kevin Jolly said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 7:09 am

John –

Did you get a bad burrito or something? You’ve got a real thing about Mexicans going on.

You’re right these guys are all illegal – and they’re looking for work. They’re out there on the corners because contractors, builders, subs, even surbuban husbands, will pick them up and pay them $8/hour to work. You’re wrong with your generaliztion that they’re “demanding free services”. Most of these guy wouldn’t go near anything that looks official – not the emergency room, not a housing office, not the food stamp office – they don’t want to get on any official radar and get sent home. They live 8-10 in an apartment, and share the rent and food so they can save their money.

There’s scammers and scum everywhere – but the vast majority of these guys are good hard working folks who are trying to help their families. It’s fair to blast them for being in the country illegally – it’s not fair to paint them with a broad brush as welfare scammers and social leeches.

Having grown up in Texas, and lived and worked cheek and jowl with illegals I have a hard time understanding the heat you seem to bring to this issue. Jeez – where’s your heat for the drug dealers, gang-bangers, welfare cheats and general scum (illegal and legal) who are a real problem? These guys – are looking for jobs – not stealing your weed whacker.

Or a real issue – why don’t you get fired up about changing your screwy property tax system so you can fund your schools – UCA system was the best in the world – what has twenty years of underfunding done there? Those guys on the corner didn’t do it. Or . . . maybe they did?

# 10 Ivan S said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 7:12 am

How can you tell they are illegal just by looking at them is not a stupid question. I have also chatted with them and not all are without papers. Are you saying we should get rid of all illegal looking people? Out with all mexicans? Even the mexican looking americans?
The fact of the matter is that this is just racism in disguise, I also know a group of english guys at a publishing house I use who are illegally working here, but since they have the right ‘look’ no one would question the right to be here.
Of course we should stop illegal immigration, of course they should be able to fing jobs in their country. (It is not that they wouldn’t love to go back there) But the problems are way more complex than just rounding a few people and getting rid of them.
Our own US goverment wants them here, big businesses want them here, YOU want them here when you pay cheap prices for the products and services we consume that are made with their cheap labor.
And please stop with the myth of “all the services they require” Without papers you can’t get: Unemployment insurance, welfare or food stamps, social security benefits (neither medical nor retirement) income tax refunds or earn income credits. All you can say they get is emergency medical care.
So when you see an illegal in line at the unemployment office….adjust your lenses because that is an american citizen.

# 11 R. Tatmuller said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 7:53 am

Obviously, Frank needs to broaden his reading a bit. Illegal aliens are the major source of these day laborer gatherings. This has been the subject of many dozens of articles in all of the NorCal papers for years.
They refer to them as “undocumented workers” and sob and moan about their need for a taxpayer funded work hall and employment agency.
Just Google the obvious terms.
Oh, and check Concord Ca too – they were recently the subject of a series of articles (which actually tell of some of the problems, though couched in PC-Speak gibberish) by the exceptionally
illegal alien friendly Contra Costa Times (a Knight-Ridder PC rag).
Of course, the articles are always fawning, excusing these people for “only seeking a better life”. What crap! This stupid phrase is so over-used (with a straight face, often crinkled with concern) by the MSM and the various institutional supporters of unrestricted immigration (La Raza, LULAC, ACLU, MSM editorial, etc.), it has achieved joke status.
“You see, they only came for a better life.”
“But they only came for a better life for their children.”
And on and on.
Anyway, Frank, yes they are illegals – if not all, then most.
And if you don’t believe it, go up to some and ask to see some papers.
And, Frank, drop by the emergency room of your local hospital and do the same thing.

# 12 Adrian said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 10:11 am

that’s nothing… almost every home depot and lowes and every other place that contractors and such frequent in Phoenix, Az, constantly has these guys all over the place… The home depot closest to my house has at least 40 or 50 every day, for most of the day.

White guys like me are quickly becoming a minority in Phoenix.

# 13 eddy maddix said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 11:01 am

No idea about the reality of your situation in the USA (probably similar to our in the UK) but a different “spin” on the issue from the NYT.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F7091FFC345B0C768CDDAD0894DD404482

>>>

# 14 meetsy said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 1:27 pm

Frank,
Uhhh….they may be legal, but I doubt it. Most “legals” don’t stand around on street corners, peering into passing cars like hookers looking for a quick buck. Most “legals” don’t loiter around, standing with no apparent purpose, and not “conversing with one another” . Most legals are either in the unemployment line, welfare office, or are picking up recycling and hauling it to the cash exchange points, trying to make enough money to survive. The rest post like crazy on places like Craigslist, trying to find enough work to make rent this month.
It’s a new “tradition” that illegals are the ones who stand around near construction building materials retail stores. If you don’t believe it, come and see for yourself. And, remember, this is ONE street (Hearst Street, Berkeley, CA between 4th and 2nd in the area immediately surrounding “Truitt and White Lumber Company”.) There are several other locations of “illegal congregations” in Berkeley, dozens and dozens in the ajacent town of Oakland, and hundreds through-out the greater bay area.
I don’t know about you, but it’s disconcerting to have unemployed, males standing about, lining the streets. These men have no ties to America, except that they’ve come here for ONE PURPOSE: MONEY. When they don’t get work, what do you think happens? If they get sick….who foots the bill? If they get injured, who pays?
Crime is way up. Thefts, assaults, sex crimes, and the like, not to mention public urination. It’s a little daunting to take a walk with the kids when the street is lined with people who are NOT your neighbors. It can be downright annoying to be a woman and have to put up with the catcalls, the oogling, etc. I’m tired of finding things missing from MY YARD, and my house. I’m not pleased with finding people sleeping in my neighbors backyard. I’m not happy with the wonderful odors of urine on the side of MY HOUSE.
The people MOST hurt by this, though, are the blacks, the legal hispanics, and other immigrants (here legally). So, we aren’t protecting those who need protection MOST.

# 15 Tony said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 2:38 pm

And just for those many fine years of reading, I must say that today is a very grey day for me.

That kind of intolerant discourse that you just wrote on this post, man… You just fell big time.

I am not saying that this theme isn’t important. But you could choose another way to make your point, certainly.

# 16 Robert Blanchette said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 3:12 pm

It’s just as bad in Arizona. One thing worse in Arizona is the tremendous environmental damage the illegals cause. Some guys I work with were out hunting and took some pictures of thousands of abandoned backpacks and other trash. The pictures have to be seen to be believed. The local news ran a story on it a few months ago and showed a picture of a desert wash filled with 15,000 (their estimate) backpacks. Why aren’t the liberals howling about this?

I live 50 miles North of the border and I see Border Patrol parked at the end of my street every day. There are usually 2-4 BP trucks. Last week they apprehended 485 illegals in the sector I live in, and it was a slow week compared to most, thanks to the Minutemen.

What chaps my behind about this whole issue is that people who don’t have to deal with the problem love to tell those of us who live in border states what to do about it. Come live where I live for a while and you’ll change your tune quick. A couple of weeks ago 3 young girls were hurt in a car wreck in a neighboring town. The wreck was caused by an illegal running from the police. He was doing 110MPH in a 35MPH zone and ran a red light. The same week another illegal led the cops on a 70 mile chase at 100MPH+. They finally shot him and put an end to it. We’re living in a war zone in Southern Arizona and the rest of the country just doesn’t seem to get it.

# 17 site admin said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 3:19 pm

As you can tell by reading these comments, many people are in favor of this invasion. Obviously they are not in their neighborhoods and they can afford to feel self-righteous.And I have nothing against Mexicans. Just ones who shouldn’t be here and ones wanting to take over a few states and make them part of Mexico. This an overt and stated goal. Sorry that I can’t be kind gentle about it.

# 18 site admin said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 3:22 pm

Oh..and the rate these guys are usually paid is $6.hr. Or $50 a day. It’s collected typically by a “boss” and who knows how much he keeps.

# 19 meetsy said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 3:50 pm

I think it’s sad that there are people defending illegal aliens. Why not just open the borders and let ANYONE IN? Why not all of the criminals and perverts and predators, murders, and thiefs from ALL COUNTRIES? Why not people who are against our country and want to destroy it? Why not open the floodgates and let everyone…from everywhere in the world…come to our shores with no controls, no thought, and, certainly, no background checks? Why play favorites with Mexicans?
Heck, let’s let the whole world invade our country……it’s racist to ONLY allow and defend those who are from our southern border. What about Asians, Africans, ….you name it? Wouldn’t that be “fair”?

# 20 Frank IBC said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 3:56 pm

Most “legals” don’t stand around on street corners, peering into passing cars like hookers looking for a quick buck.

Most legals are either in the unemployment line, welfare office, or are picking up recycling and hauling it to the cash exchange points, trying to make enough money to survive

This is a joke, isn’t it? “MOST” legals?

And what’s the difference between “making a quick buck” and “making enough money to survive”?

Much of the nuisances generated by these informal day labor sites are due to the way that they are set up (i.e., furtive operation on street corner/parking lot, changing week by week). Communities that have created sanctioned day labor sites, with facilities, have all but eliminated these nuisances.

# 21 Frank IBC said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 4:06 pm

And I have nothing against Mexicans. Just ones who shouldn’t be here and ones wanting to take over a few states and make them part of Mexico. This an overt and stated goal.

Wow, I’m impressed. Not only can you determine their immigration status, from several hundred feet away on a freeway, but you can also rule out the possibility that they are Salvadoran, Honduran, Guatemalan, Bolivian, etc. etc.

# 22 Pat said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 4:41 pm

Tony

I fail to understand what you mean by “intolerance.”

“Illegal” aliens are, as the name suggests, here illegally. That means they are breaking the law. The same as someone that would rob a bank, sell meth or speed, or speed recklessly are breaking the law.

Their presence is a drain on the entire country. They hurt everyone by being here; the poorest the most. We spend BILLIONS of dollars in law enforcement policing against their being here and then after they arrive.

I have no sympathy with any of these people.

# 23 Ed Campbell said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 6:28 pm

I’ve told this story enough times; so, John, forgive me if I’m repeating it, here. I work construction. One of my best buds started working here [northern New Mexico] in 1990. The general contractor he worked for trained him for a particular craft — just a tad above laborer; but, it paid better.

He left for a couple of years to work for a friend of his out in San Diego; but, that fell apart — and he returned home. He’s born and brought up in New Mexico, by the way. Downstate.

He came back around 1993 and returned to the same GC to see if they needed help. They welcomed him back — said he had a great work history — there was only one change. Now, that they were relying almost exclusively on “undocumentados” for their framing crews, he’d have to take a $2 an hour paycut to get his old job back.

He told them where to stick their job.

That’s everything about what illegal migrant work is about. It’s cutting wages, you don’t pay the illegals any benefits, either. It’s as sleazy as any business practice can be — and it’s endorsed by both of the Tweedledee-dumb political parties. Yes, it’s illegal and the laws haven’t been enforced for the same time period. Employers don’t take a real chance with the law unless they know they can get away with it.

# 24 Michele said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 7:30 pm

JoJo and Meetsy made alot of good points. If you think the problem is bad in Berkeley, you should see what is going on in the rest of the country. It is no longer a border states problem. The illegal migrants are spreading into every state in the union. The illegal invasion from Mexico is one of economic migrants seeking a better life and who can blame them? However this is not good for America and why should America take on the burden that Mexico refuses to address? The illegal Mexican migrants are largely poor and uneducated people who can only do menial labor jobs.. but as time goes by, they have come to fill many jobs that traditionally an American kid with a high school education would have wanted. Their pressence and ability to work for very little money has made these jobs untenable for Americans. I am talking about traditional trade jobs like construction, roofing, tree trimming, landscaping, pool cleaning, auto repair, and virtually any type of manufacturing job – you name it and they are displacing American workers. Americans are not lazy, they want a job that pays a fair wage. The pressence of illegal aliens willing to work for pennies has litterally lowered the wage scale and made these jobs really unaffordable for Americans. In addition, illegal aliens coming into California have high birthrates and are costing the state of California $10.5 billion a year in health, education, and welfare services, including incarceration. Mexico won’t even take back their own criminals and are harboring many who’ve committed serious crimes like murder. Legal immigration is also a big problem in this country – the H1-B visa program is allowing 1000s of workers from foreign countries especially India to come here and take American jobs (greedy corporations are busy firing your American neighbors and replacing them with H1B visa applicants from foreign countries who will work for a fraction of the wage – and this is currently legal). For example I have read that the amount of unemployed tech workers is equaled by the amount of H1B visa holders coming in to replace them. Too much immigration is responsible for pollution, over-consumption of natural resources, urban sprawl, traffic, higher housing costs, and over-crowded schools…. The overcrowding is forcing the state of Calif. to build schools at an unprecedented rate. MALDEF (Mexican American Legal Defence and Education Fund) estimates that 40% of the K-12 children in California are Latino, for example….. There are a number of websites to learn more about these problems like FAIR.org (Federation of Americans for Immigration Reform, NumbersUSA.com, etc.) I think Mexico needs to quit exporting their population. They need to advocate birth control. They are over-populated and unable to provide jobs for their people. We, as Americans, need to really stand up on this issue because our economy and environment are being irreversibly negatively impacted. This is really an uphill battle because you have banks and corporations who want the illegals here so they can make money off them. They’ve got congressmen in their back pockets. These “open-borders advocates” on Capitol Hill are willing to sell their country for a buck and are (currently) busy trying to push for an amnesty plan or work (bracerro) type program. Any type of program that will legalize the illegals coming here to work, is nothing but a slow-motion amnesty. The USA needs to seal the border and change the way citizenship is granted. Many come here and have babies (“anchor babies”) which are automatically give US citizenship. So then you have a complicated situation where the parents are illegal and could be deported but the kid is not deportable. The answers to these problems, I don’t need to remind everyone, are fairly complex. It is not racist to want to protect your borders and monitor who comes in the country – all countries do this. Why are Americans called “racist” if they want to stop illegal immigration? This is an issue of economic and environmental survival that all Americans should be concerned about. It is not racist to worry about the ill-effects of illegal immigration coming from a particular country. It just so happens that the invasion is coming from Mexico. Anyway, thank you for continuing to focus and comment on this issue.

# 25 Frank IBC said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 8:12 pm

Ed Campbell -

Sounds like your friend is too proud to work?

# 26 R. Tatmuller said, on April 22nd, 2005 at 8:33 pm

This Frank we have here is much like all of the Franks that we have in this country, so indoctrinated with “open border”, “they’re here for a better life” dogma from the MSM and the aforementioned illegal alien support groups, that they cannot think, they cannot analyze, they seem anumeric – in other words they are effective idiots on this issue – that or intentionally perverse, in pursuit of some unknown agenda, personal or public, who knows.
We have hundreds of articles and studies on the issue of immigration, legal or not, that consistently and conclusively prove that the excessive levels we have had forced upon us for the past 10-20 years is wrecking this country – wrecking it’s cultural cohesion and identity, it’s public institutions, it’s tax base and it’s physical plant.
The Franks in our country, however, chose to ignore all of this and focus only on stupid, nitpicking foolishness like “how do you know they’re illegals?”, “how do you know they’re Mexican”, and other pointless dissection of the obvious.
This is the kind of misdirection these Franks use, because they can never respond to the facts and numbers of this situation – it’s either this crap or “came for a better life” or “that’s racist” or “we’re all immigrants”.
Franks of the world, forget all that petty horseshit and think about what is happening and it’s many trendlines.
Here’s an easy little creative exercise for Frank:
Imagine that you are in a the emergency room after a nasty auto accident. You arrive and find it filled with non-paying illegal aliens and immigrants and a few insured citizens. You are last in line, Frank. Now, tell us how many in line ahead are illegal and how many are legal. Well, it turns out that only 65% are illegal and of those, only 80% are Mexican.
Well, Frank, look, you won one. They’re not all illegals after all!
John would have been wrong!
And what exactly does that have do with whether you live or die?
The point is, immigration is out of control, our systems are failing due to the overload of non-paying, non-assimilating,
non-English speaking immigrants and we, as a society, will fail if we do not stop it and start returning illegals home.
The time for nitpicking and dissection of the obvious is well over.
We, nor any country, has any obligation to accept any warm body who shows up at it’s border.
Not to mention pay their medical, education, food, employment halls, prisons and all else at no cost to them.
To get back to the emergency room example, Frank, if you had insufficient insurance, you would pay with every thing you and your family owned – and with our wonderful new bankruptcy bill, you’d be paying the rest of your life.
The illegals you feel you must protect will pay nothing.
If we don’t quit listening to the Franks, we are doomed.

# 27 Jojo said, on April 23rd, 2005 at 3:23 am

Good post Michele (though some paragraph breaks would sure have been nice)!

The crux of the problem is that humans, as a general statement, are short-term focus animals. Our society and cultures are designed around short-term reward. Always has been, though with the instant information capabilities of today’s modern world, this is more evident now that it has been in the past.

These days, companies run mainly quarter to quarter, always searching for ways to increase revenues and profits. As we’ve come to see, there are many ways to accomplish this goal. Companies can sell more products but there is a natural limit to how much of a product an economy can absorb. They can create new products but this is an expensive proposition and most product introductions aren’t successful. Since most large companies aren’t really innovative, the only other choice is to find some way to reduce costs to increase profits. After companies have gotten as efficient as they can by honing their existing operations, all that is left are layoffs, outsourcing or offshoring, all of which damage both local and nation economies.

Consumers, on the other hand, want prices as low as possible. Many are willing to hold their noses and accept their neighbors job loss, the degradation of their local communities and schools as unemployment rises as companies cut back on local employment or offshore operations, accept illegal workers, shoddy labor practices and products (anyone ever wonder why so many products (go check out The Sharper Image, for example) only have 90 day warranties now?), all to save $$.

There are many stories in the media and on the net about how Wal-Mart has a reputation as a predator company, treating their workers poorly, paying low wages, giving minimal, if any benefits, getting most of their shoddy products made offshore in low-wage countries like China, etc., so that they can offer us the lowest prices. Yet many people still continue to shop there and the company continues to expand. Why should/would the company change if people are willing to accept such poor labor practices?

Politicians generally have little backbone these days and are unwilling to stand-up for principle if it will cost them contributions or votes. They want to keep business happy because it is business that supports them with contributions, junkets and consultant work when they leave politics. OTOH, they also have to keep their constituents happy because it is they who vote and elect the politicians. If politicians could legislate it so that only businesses could vote, then they wouldn’t have to worry about the people in their districts!

Companies want more profits, consumers want lower prices and politicians want to be elected/re-elected. We are all looking for short-term gain, unable to see the BIG PICTURE, unwilling to acknowledge that every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction, unwilling to recognize the cascading damage we are doing to our society. If you want more profits, then either more product has to be sold or costs have to cut. If you want lower prices, then products have to be produced at a lower cost.

I could write pages and pages about how the quality of our lives are much worse than they were 10, 20, 50 years ago. Yes, we have all sorts of information and technology now that we didn’t have access to in the past, but we also have less time to process this information, to enjoy life, to have fun, to spend time with our families, to take vacations, to sit back and relax, to think and to ponder. In most families these days, two people must work to support the family. Commute times to work can range from 1-4 hours per day cutting into free time. For those with a non-union job, it seems that 50 hour weeks are expected. And many families live on the edge, mortgaged to the hilt, maxed out on credit, living paycheck to paycheck with little or no savings. Many children are coddled and pampered, rewarded for any small thing so that their egos don’t get hurt. Our environment is slowly being destroyed and human created global warming is working its havoc upon us. Our society has become dysfunctional.

We can only sit and watch what’s left of our world, as we know it, fall apart. At some point, things might get so bad, that “the people” will rise up in arms. However, if you look at say, a country like North Korea, apparently it will have to get a lot worse here before something like this will happen. People there are starving en masse and suffering greatly under an oppressive dictator, yet would rather cling to what little life they have than to rise up and fight, even if it means they might lose their life.

Put this all together and what we have is a long-term recipe for economic disaster here and eventually throughout the world, as I tried to describe in my first post up above. There is absolutely no way that these problems can or will ever be be solved in the USA under the present economic and political structure.

Global commerce and technology is enabling the “lowest common denominator”. Western, first world countries like the USA are being reduced in economic power and affluence while 2nd and 3rd world countries are seeing their levels rise. Somewhere, an equilibrium will be reached. I’d wager that many of us will wind up poorer and not very happy with our circumstances, compared to where we were in the past.

# 28 Tony said, on April 23rd, 2005 at 8:26 am

Pat,

I described John initial post by “intolerant discourse” because I couldn’t imagine J. Dvorak making a point in such a way.

There is something very wrong in this country. We’re loosing our humanity. We should find a way to fix it.

I’m very disappointed. In fact, I just canceled my PCMAG subscription. (John’s column was the reason to get it.)

# 29 Pat said, on April 23rd, 2005 at 11:37 am

John

I’ve noticed over the past while that nothing gets your reader’s attention like “illegal immigration” does. Though I have not actually taken statistics, it appears that at least 90% of the respondents agree with your position.

Reading these posts, I have seen so many comments well put. Cases this emotional too often bring out instinctual, base, inarticulate responses.

I thank you, on behalf of all of us, for giving us a chance to vent over something so important.

# 30 Jojo said, on April 23rd, 2005 at 1:57 pm

Yup, nothing like illegal immigration, evolution, religion of outsourcing/offshoring to get the blood boiling! Happens in every net forum all the time.

But the point is – what are we going to do about this particular problem?

These discussions go on and on but little happens. It’s easy to point out the problems in anything, much more difficult to propose workable solutions or take action to be part of the solution. One thing is sure, if we do nothing, then nothing will change and things will only continue to get worse.

I like what is happening down on the border in Arizona – citizens taking a stand! We also need to write to our legislators and we need to have some massive demonstrations. We need to have current laws enforced. Companies and individual people that employ illegal labor need to face heavy fines and/or jail time.

Longer term, we need to change the way our political system operates, by either voting for better politicians or creating a viable 3rd and possibly 4th party. As it stands now, there is little difference between the current Republicans and Democrats. Both parties are pawns of corporate business.

In other words, it’s time to start “walking the talk”.

# 31 Ed Campbell said, on April 23rd, 2005 at 5:09 pm

Too proud, Frank. What an elitist, self-serving, holier-than-thou remark.

Tell me, how big a paycut are you willing to take, right now, to keep your job? And, then, after you kiss your boss’s butt — do you think it stops there? My bud’s ex-boss doesn’t pay ANY bennies, now. Are you willing to give those up, as well?

You sound like someone who never had to make a choice like that — and probably lacks the courage, respect for principle, or integrity to do it.

# 32 Ed Campbell said, on April 23rd, 2005 at 6:09 pm

You know, I thought an example would illustrate what workingclass folks face with the inrush of illegal migrant labor. I guess that was too subtle for the beancounter mentality.

How about numbers, then? Our county population is 160,000. Local politicos count 15% of that to be illegal. That’s 24,000 people who send a big chunk of their pay back “home” without paying taxes into the system. But, their kids are in the school system, the parents fill the ER of our local hospital — remember no insurance with these jobs, now. And they’re not taxpayers. They have social security numbers, legal or otherwise. But, no income tax, federal or state, is being paid.

Construction is the 4th largest employer in the county, we estimate 2/3 of work crews are illegal. About 10,000 American workers, native-born or naturalized [a significant fraction in NM] lost their jobs in the last 10-12 years, replaced by illegal workers.

That’s one county in one sparsely populated state. Does that mean anything, Frank? Or does the old Ayn Rand sort of ethic rule your egregious world? “I’ve got mine. Screw you.”

# 33 Frank IBC said, on April 23rd, 2005 at 6:13 pm

Imagine that you are in a the emergency room after a nasty auto accident. You arrive and find it filled with non-paying illegal aliens and immigrants and a few insured citizens. You are last in line, Frank. Now, tell us how many in line ahead are illegal and how many are legal. Well, it turns out that only 65% are illegal and of those, only 80% are Mexican.

Well, given that this scenario is in your imagination, not mine, it would be quite silly for me to disagree with your imaginary numbers, wouldn’t it?

# 34 R. Tatmuller said, on April 24th, 2005 at 2:48 pm

QED, Frank

From my last post:
“The Franks in our country, however, chose to ignore all of this and focus only on stupid, nitpicking foolishness like “how do you know they’re illegals?”, “how do you know they’re Mexican”, and other pointless dissection of the obvious.”

# 35 meetsy said, on April 24th, 2005 at 7:54 pm

Tony, Frank(s)
Guys…I don’t know where YOU are coming from. Clue me in.
It’s not racist to point out that illegals are coming across the border in untold numbers, large numbers. It’s common knowledge, acknowledged by our government. It’s a fact. It’s also a fact that on any given day there are aliens, not here legally, who are receiving services that suck up the spot that one of our legally here, under-funded Americans (be it immigrant, or not) will now not have access to. Our schools are pumping out an exceptional number of minimum wage workers….with no skills, lack of basic spelling/grammar/math/knowledge skills. So, it’s not like we don’t have an endless supply of our own low wage labor. However, if an illegal immigrant is in that spot…where does that home-grown low wage earner go? To welfare. So, it costs ALL OF US….we might as well just send our money to Mexico, and save the middle man.
I’m not against Mexico. I think the people below the border are just great. But, I am against providing NO FUTURE for black, hispanic, asian …undereducated, underserved, and the ones taking the brunt of the illegal labor force.
I’m for the under guy. I think John must be too, or he wouldn’t have posted the photos. So, Tony, what’s your beef? You racist? You hate Blacks or something? Whats the deal? And Frank(s) I think you guys are just trying to stir up trouble, or sitting on your lily white a**es in retirement. You ain’t gettin’ it, are you?

# 36 jojo said, on April 26th, 2005 at 10:25 pm

A photo I took today that I mentioned in my first post in this thread and a link to a hard hitting article from about September 2004 (author doesn’t use dates) on the subject:

The Overwhelming of America
http://www.martynemko.com/pub/articles/Guestworker.shtm

http://www.fototime.com/FA816161B3FBE78/orig.jpg

# 37 ink said, on May 1st, 2005 at 7:06 am

Adrian’s experience at the Home Depot is not unique. The Home Depot here in Concord, CA, has 50 or more illegals every day hanging around two entrances to the parking area. Plus, smaller groups will be found at the main interesections along the two major east-west thoroughfares into the downtown. There must be at least 100 young men standing around waiting for “something” in the morning hours along these roadways. This problem isn’t going to fix itself, and it’s clear that the Immigration Service and courts are overwhelmed and unable to effectively deal with the problem we already have in country. To the degree that our laws are hindering local, federal and state law enforcement from getting this problem under control, the laws need to be changed to take the handcuffs off of all levels of law enforecement, and remove the burden being placed on the court system.

# 38 Jojo said, on May 1st, 2005 at 12:13 pm

The laws are not going to get changed anytime soon. We need to enforce the laws that already exist.

The Minuteman project is good because it brings and keeps media attention on this matter. One can only hope that eventually, the government, politicians and law enforcement will get the message and start doing their jobs.

We need to take two actions to put a stop to this problem:

1. Any company/person caught employing illegal immigrants must pay a heavy fine for the first offense. Subsequent offenses must invoke heavier fines, jail time or even shutting down the company and confiscating all assets if they don’t get the message.

2. Round these people up at all the places they congregate, check for valid ID/papers and if they don’t have them, immediately put them on a bus and ship them back down south. During the roundup and transportation process, they get nothing other than bread and water to eat. Maybe fingerprint them also and build a nice database for them.

If they keep coming back and get caught again, then we’ll need to hold them somewhere where it isn’t very comfortable for a while until they get the message. Maybe a tent compound in the desert somewhere, again with only bread and water to eat? The real incorrigibles who keep coming back, get to spend time in a real prison.

And maybe for each one that is caught, we also deduct $100, $1000 or whatever amount makes sense from the economic “handouts” we give to Mexico each year.

There’s a solution to every problem. One just needs to have the backbone and WILL to apply it. I say it is time to stop playing games with this issue.

# 39 B. Phillips said, on May 17th, 2005 at 11:29 am

Ran across your site by pure accident. Had to do a ‘double-take’, as it
looks EXACTLY like Mesa, AZ!! They congregate in many places, but
the main one I have run across is near Mesa Dr., and Broadway. I had
a horrible experience there..was going to pick up son who had dropped off his classic VW at a VW shop. Driving my husbands small
truck, there were at least 15 of them who had jumped up into the bed of the truck….evidently thinking I was there for day laborers!! Scared the HELL out of me!! Know exactly how that young Sgt. Haab, who was
in the desert of S. AZ, at a rest stop, walking his dog, and was accosted by illegals who thought he was a coyote. Our lard-arse
Sherriff Arpaio arrested him!!! Arizona is a pit, and allows this to go on.

# 40 Techniac said, on June 19th, 2005 at 10:11 am

What about a Northern Chapter of Save our State ?

Concord California will be ruined by the influx of illegals…Spreading all the way up Monument Corridor to Willow Pass Road road near Park and Shop.

North Concord is next ….

When the Concord Navel Wepons Station construction starts 15-30 thousand new homes, it will be a real mess here…

I will move before I have to drive by 100′s of Mexicans every day standing on my local streetcorner.

The schools are crap…

Concord is begining to SUCK.. Little Tiajuana Mexico

# 41 JR said, on September 12th, 2005 at 12:16 pm

The companies or individuals that hire the illegals standing around in our communities need to be exposed. A civilian action group photographing the license plates and the vehicles that are stopping and hiring these guys and posting them on a common web site or sending the info to local authorities. When I complained to my local city government here in Concord I was told they were just honest hard working citizens going to and from work. Go figure.

# 42 Techniac said, on October 16th, 2005 at 7:52 pm

Is there anyone in Concord interested in some activities to expose the illegal alien problems ?

JR look at SaveOurState.org

techniac

Time to get busy !

# 43 Techniac said, on October 17th, 2005 at 6:51 pm

http://www.kirkbytv.com/index2.htm

Take a look at this Vidio footage ….SaveOur State counter protesters

# 44 Ralph said, on October 26th, 2006 at 8:06 pm

I don’t see nothing wrong with these people looking for a job! at least the are not stealing from people. If I’d need them, I ‘d hire them!

# 45 G. Bird said, on January 27th, 2007 at 2:07 pm

The average age for the American work force is now something like 25-28 years of age. These Mexicans are from 16-18 on average and the US Government wants them here because it is run by Big business not the people.They want a strong healthy work force for low pay and no benifits so they can become even more powerefull.They already have plans on making Mexico part of the United States. This is part of the new world order and the reason being to create ethnic wars in the United States so they can come in and take away your guns. The new world order is the Masons, the inner circle and their plan is world takover and controll. Thats right, they are setting up the anti-christ and we know Christ will come for his church before this all takes place. Find out what all these politicians are all doing and then you will understand. Read: http://WWW.Rense.com/general74/cafrss.htm and http://www.Rense.com/general74/whatr.htm And if you really want to read http://www.planetquo.com/The-George-H-W-Bush-JFK-murder-Connection then read http://www.nephos.com/NIMBy.htm God Bless

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