My Way News
– I hate to revist this whole thing, but now this info makes the fuss even more ridiculous. I only run this because of all the people who kept saying she was there looking fondly at the visitors. Turned out she couldn;t see anything. Poor woman.
“This damage was irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons,” said Pinellas-Pasco County Medical Examiner Dr. Jon Thogmartin, who led the autopsy team. He also said she was blind, because the “vision centers of her brain were dead.”
Pat, I’m not sure how you differentiate between diagnosis and medical evaluation, but take a look at the full Frist speech. He has clearly talked to other neurologists, and the video is not the sole basis for saying not a vegetative state. He does use that as additional evidence, but he is doing a good job of explaining things as he saw them at the time. I still say that the underlying facts and allegations are why this case came forward, but Frist’s speech is a strong case by itself.
Thanks meetsy – saves me a long post.
AB CD – Do you get your news from FOX or that jackass Pat Robertson?
Both lied about the facts and Michael Shaivo – and both should be sue to the high heavens.
But wait – I think the republicans are passing a new law that states neo cons and their operatives can slander anyone – but being a “liberal” is a gitmo crime.
impeach Bush!
AB
Did it ever occur to you that the REASON the media was focusing on THIS issue, was because it was EASY. There were people willing to make noise, because the microphone was in their face. (Hmmm, politicians have a TENDENCY to do that, you know? Of course, it makes me wonder what the motive was of the parents…reminded me of “munchausen by proxy”. They were just a little TOO media happy.) But, the point is: WE have phony news….to keep the news people from doing any real work, and to keep the masses occupied. It’s making us stupid.
Other stories: there WAS a baby boy in Texas who had his lifeline pulled…because the Mom had no insurance. He had lungs too small to keep him alive off the respirator. He was NOT brain dead, just needed more air. No money for a lung transplant. Mom couldn’t afford to buy a respirator to keep him at home. The Texas law…(signed by Bush, when gov) said “no money, pull the plug.”
In all fact, there WERE probably hundreds, if not THOUSANDS of people who made decisions to pull the plug on loved ones during the time the Teri thing was in the news. Seriously. People die every day. People have all extreme measures stopped…..people are declared brain dead. People have feeding tubes, and respirators shut down/yanked out.. There was NOTHING particularly interesting about Terri. Seriously.
Well, except she was white, young, and her parents and husband were at odds. But, as for a cause…and as for going on-and-on about WHAT the hubby may or may NOT have been doing is just moronic.
Terri wasn’t going anywhere else. I know of a lot of husbands who step out..without any wife in a coma. Heck, I’d bet, if you were young, alone, and facing that kind of pressure and grief…you’d find some comfort in the arms of another, as well. He was only human. There are worse things….much worse. In fact, would you WANT your partner to wait around, forever, for you? I wouldn’t. What else could he do…you cannot divorce someone who is in a coma, you know?
Plus he didn’t mudsling like the parents. You’re taking the side of the more vocal of the two parties.
The fact that her parents are unable to come to terms with grief and loss…and want to blame and avoid is sad. But we don’t do death too well in this society. We’re pathetic when it comes to honoring DEATH. But, ask yourself, what kind of parents WANT their child to linger on, at all costs? What kind of parents can only think of themselves in a situation like this? How could you sit and watch your child waste away? How well do you think they really KNEW her, anyway? They wouldn’t even acknowledge her eating problem….(losing 100lbs in a year, can’t be much of anything else….it’s a tad “rapid”). Somehow…I think they didn’t pay that much attention to her when she was ALIVE. They protest too much, and they still won’t give it up. I don’t think they are very nice people.
Think! Think about this…. don’t listen to the words, think about the actions. You have a mind, so use it. Seriously, look at the actions. Look at the media circus. You don’t live in a bubble (I hope)…go out, look around, go to a nursing home…visit some of these coma patients. Get a feel for the situation. Thinking is a very good thing to do.
Okay, so let’s say, a miracle, after a 15 year coma…..what sort of quality of life do you think she was going to have? Look at Sarah Scantlin….she did “recover” from a coma. One out of a million. But, she STILL can’t sit upright for 5 minutes. Her muscles have wasted away to the point that it will take YEARS of physical therapy to regain any significant abilities. Just everyday tasks (holding a telephone, trying to eat) cause her pain, frustration, and suffering. She was “lucky”. Forgive me, but I don’t think life is worth living at any cost.
I don’t know….the whole thing should NOT have been in the media eye. I’m suspicious as to why it was. I find the whole thing as uninteresting as the Michael Jackson saga, or anything to do with Paris Hilton. It’s boring. It’s not news. It’s making us a country of idiots — do you really want to be among the moronic masses?.
But, in general, it reminded me of that Bill Hicks joke: “if you want to be so pro-life, blockade the cemetary”. Evidently, that might be the plan.
Frankly I didn’t use either of those sources, but I wonder which of these that I think to be facts are false:
Michael Schiavo is living with a woman other than his wife. He has had two children with this woman, and refers to her as his fiancee.
He collected over a million dollars in a lawsuit to pay for medical care.
In this lawsuit he made no mention of his wife’s intention to not be treated in such a condition. He stopped treatment after getting the money. I don’t remember the time gap but I think it was a few months, putting in a do not resuscitate order as well.
Many neurologists were giving an opinion that Terri Schiavo could be treated, and perhaps even be recovered.
There is a difference between unconscious, brain-dead, and persistent vegetative state.
Terri Schiavo never gave a clear verbal or written ‘living will’ that she was not to be treated if she was in a PVS.
All,
Mr. Dvorak’s site attracts my readership because, although I don’t always agree with him, he presents a lot of material I don’t see elsewhere, and he clearly is very insightful and intelligent. I presented my views on this case based on what I’ve read on the case. I read material from both sides of the issue from various sources. I posted here in hopes of doing a little clarifying of the real issues. In response I got some really good replies that were full of facts, such as #8 and #9.
On the other hand, I also got some responses attacking me directly, calling me a “cop-out” and even John himself calling me a “nutball”. In the rules of debate, attacking a presenter rather than his point of view is an automatic acknowledgement of defeat. Perhaps the reason you don’t get more conservative posts, Mr. Dvorak, is because conservatives know they won’t get fair treatment when they post here.
And for the record, I want to point out that I am not some wacked-out far righter who is adamant that Terri Schiavo be kept alive no matter what. My own grandmother died in a manner similar to hers after a stroke. She was however, able to look my father in the eye several times and say, “Let me die.” So I know what I’m talking about too.
I appreciate those who posted thoughtfully in the spirit of intelligent debate and examining the facts without devolving into name-calling. Perhaps I was wrong and perhaps the articles I read didn’t have all the facts. If everything was done to ensure she was really in a PVS, then the right choice was made. But what I read there certainly left room for doubt. I am glad that the subsequent facts verified the choice that was made was indeed the right one.
AB CD
Michael is indeed living with another woman. Only after spending 10 years trying to rehab Terry.
Of the million dollars, $50,000 was left as of the first court order removing the tube. This is a fact. How much is left now is a point of conjecture.
Of the 10 or so neurologists that actually examined Terry and saw the CAT scans and the NMRs. NONE thought she could ever recover.
The Shindlers brought in four other neurologists during the court battle. The first two agreed with the others. the last two were hired by Pat Robertson. I some how doubt their objectivity.
Regardless of who examined her – all stated that for a person in her condition she was physically in good shape – by which they stated she had no bed sores and no evidence of neglect or abuse. I know from experience how had it is to keep someone like this in that state.
All the court appointed Neurologists save one all thought she was unrecoverable. One or two ( I don’t have my computer to check this) as I remember thought she MIGHT be brought from stage 5 (constant vegetative state) to stage 4 (constant vegetative state with some vocalizations). My mother was in stage 5 and was briefly in stage 4 – there’s not a lot of difference.
Often I have heard people say out loud the question why is he fighting so hard to kill her when others would care for her. I think there is a simple answer – She stated to him that she didn’t want to be in that state and please make sure she wouldn’t. Do I have proof? No. For those of you are married – how many confessions pass between spouses that only the two of you know? I know that my wife before we were married had many views on life and religion that have changed with time and experience that her mother would now be shocked at if she knew how my wife felt now.
My sources for this are the following – the summaries of the first court proceedings that resulted in the first court order to suspend feeding. This was before it got to be a political farce. These were widely available during the life of this story, but for one CNN interview and a few well done local news stories of Terry, none of the other papers and show seemed to use them – at least the ones I read and saw.
Second there was a CNN interview with the man who had been appointed by the court to coordinate the evaluation of Terry before the first court order. He is the one who stated Terry’s physical state and also told about the finances. In addition he also catalogued all the attempts by Michael to rehab Terry.
Three – During the last days of Terry’s life, when the abject coward Pat Robertson got involved for political brownie points, there was suppose to have been a nurse that over heard Michael say “When is the bitch going to die”. That old anti-Christ Pat didn’t say is that there were two other care givers that came forward after this nurse told her story stating that they (the care givers) have had a conversation with same said nurse and she said to them that “anything she could to save Terry she would do”, including lying. This part of the story was only reported on by Chris Mathews as far as I know, and only once.
Frank,
where did John call you a nutball? I’m not seeing it. Seems to me, he was speaking in general terms.
Sound,
Wow. A lot of good info in that. Thanks for sourcing it too. The article I read from the conservative right was by a neurologist who made the points I made above. But all of this makes me wonder a few things (and I ask honestly seeking the answers, not to try to pursuade anyone of anything).
You mention an NMR. I believe that an MRI and an NMR are the same thing. The name was changed to avoid the panic-inducing term “nuclear”. I believe it is also true that MRIs are the best scan available for imaging soft tissue. If an MRI was taken, would it not show how atrophied the brain was? It seems to me that this test would have laid the arguments to rest. We would have known that she had utterly no hope of recovery and no vision.
This same article claimed that Mr. Schiavo refused to allow her to have an MRI. It did not speculate as to why that was so, and seemed to try very hard to stick to verifiable facts and not stray into opinion. If this is so, it would be a strong indicator that he did not have her best interests in mind.
I don’t doubt that all sorts of allegations were made up by the parents’ side. I’d be even more convinced if Jess Jackson had shown up earlier. As for the remaining money, if the parents hadn’t fought Michael’s attempts, then he would have gotten substantial amounts of money. Now it’s basically all gone to the lawyers. The bigger issue is why did he try to get the money if he knew his wife wouldn’t want treatment? Perhaps the diagnosis hadn’t been made, but it seems to be very convenient timing.
Meetsy, you seem to be saying that people who don’t meet your standards of physical ability should be killed. Vegetative is one thing, but now you’re talking about people who are in much better condition. That’s the part that irritates me even more, the people who just insisted this woman must be killed because her condition was just not worth keeping her alive.
Meetsy,
Normally I wouldn’t go into so much detail. I’m really not a whiner. But since you asked, in #7 Ed pretty clearly labels me a “cop-out”, which I emphatically reject. Nonetheless, in #10, John responds to Ed, about the “low turn-out of nutballs”. Since I was the only one not agreeing with the “party-line” at that point, clearly I was the only one to turn out.
However, right after that John emailed me personally to say “I call everyone a nutball – ask my wife!” I think that was a pretty good reply, gracious in John’s own way. In spite of our disagreements on some issues (not all!), I like John and enjoy his columns and blog. I must. I keep coming back. And I keep posting in hopes of making someone realize that not all conservative Christians are ignorant, feable-minded, far-right facists.