I’m torn on the whole issue. The emotional side of me says If a detainee is a murdering terrorist with info that could save lives, then let’s get all Jack Bauer on his ass. But the intellectual side says I don’t trust the government enough to put appropriate limits on what’s done and to whom, plus, the accused should be able to have a lawyer and a trial like Moussaoui. Ain’t nothin’ like living in a (dangerous) catch-22 world.
U.N. panel sees Gitmo as torture
A key U.N. panel yesterday joined European and United Nations leaders in urging the Bush administration to close the U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, saying the indefinite detention of terrorism suspects there violates the world’s ban on torture.
The report by the Committee Against Torture came as the U.S. military disclosed that prisoners wielding improvised weapons clashed with guards trying to stop a detainee from apparently committing suicide.
The panel also said the United States should ensure that no prisoner is subjected to torture.
And then there’s this:
Big Fish: It’s Time To Put The al-Qaida Ringleaders On Trial
Four and a half years after Sept. 11, we are still struggling to decide whether this “War on Terror” should be fought in courts, on a battlefield, or in some black hole in between. The government uses courts to prosecute low-level terrorists: the guys who trained at camps in Afghanistan, or played paintball in the Virginia woods. But it uses the rules of war, modified for its own convenience, to indefinitely hold the ringleaders either at Guantanamo or at so-called “black sites” around the world. Those black sites were appealing precisely because the government intended to hold no trials. There was never a plan for what would happen next.
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The problem with the legal argument—and, to be fair, it’s a point that I have made myself—is that it’s a cop-out. Claiming that torture evidence could taint future prosecutions was, initially, a very good argument against abusing captives. But, years after the torture has happened, it’s somehow morphed into an argument against holding open criminal trials. The government still has a legal and constitutional burden to afford its prisoners some due process. That doesn’t end because it decided to torture them.
#13, James, sorry buddy. That is an urban myth. It never happened except in some strange person’s imagination.
#21, AB CD, There you go again. Inventing things. It is so obvious you don’t know the Geneva convention. Take another pill and quit hallucinating.
Sorry Mr. Fusion, but how can you say they ARE being tortured? You have nothing more to base that claim on than I do to say they most likely aren’t being tortured.
To cite Amnesty International isn’t even relevant. It’s like asking the Democrats to observe the Republicans and give an honest apprasial of what they saw or heard afterwards. Of course those people *claimed* to have been tortured. But where is THEIR proof. And what do they mean by torture? To these people the fact that a female Marine has control over them is considered torture. The truth be told, they are damn lucky they got shipped to Gitmo rather than were kept by the new Afgani goverment. Remeber, the stuff that seems to get lumped under the term *torture* is mild. Maybe it’s scary, maybe it screws with their head, but they still have that head after, they aren’t connected to electric wires from their balls or their penis, they aren’t beaten, or stabbed or legs and arms broken.
AB CD has a point, read the Geneva Convention, these people are insurgants, they are not covered by the niceties of POW rules.
I don’t feel the least bit sorry that they can’t have family visits, and who ever heard of POW’S having lawyers? Ask John McCain who his lawyer was, in fact, ask him how he defines torture. I’m betting he would have loved every minute of this kind of torture if he had the choice.
I know it goes agianst our sensitivities in the west to hold people without trial, or without hope, but this isn’t a civil case, nor are they wanted for everyday murder or mayham. Solitary confinement is only for the worst or most important of these guys, the rest are living in dormitory style jails. We now know that because of the attempt to overcome the Marine guard the day before yesterday.
I honestly believe that we are trying to get the majority of these guys out of gitmo, and when you hear of the god awful torture and stuff, you never hear that over 200 have been sent back to their own countries or to countries that would accept them.
I’m sorry……I’m not heartless, nor am I in favor of depriving people of their proper rights, but you’re asking me to believe these people, who were found in a combatant situation with the enemy, before I believe my goverment……it’s not going to happen, not with these people.
@Comment 4.
…no I don’t…not at all…why would I be shocked if an attempted suicide bomber was arrested/charged?
Jim, in comment 1, was trying to set up a scenario where the box cuttering wielding 9/11 hi-jackers were walking around after having already flown themselves into the building, asking us how we’d feel about that.
Now personally the idea of Zombie Terrorists would shock and horrify me.
As it is, I’m just saddened that I had to explain that to you.
Just one little thing regarding this. The United States of Americas’ Constitution only applies to citizens of the United States of America. And if you are not a citizen of this great counry, guess what?? The protection of the Constitution DOES NOT apply to you. So this blogs main point is moot. Now if the person is a citizen, then guess what, the Consitution does and will apply. But in that case, the person would/should be identified as a tratior, and guess what the penalty for that is???? You guessed it, DEATH. The only punishment in the entire US Consitution. Wow, that seems rather simple. But you friggin Libs, make this much more diffacult than it needs to be.
Always nice to hear from a neo-con on his way to morphing into a neo-nazi, jeremy.
All those other pieces of paper — treaties they’re called — are just as meaningless as a “constitution” in the hands of a thug who says executive power uber alles.
But, you wouldn’t complain about something that “historical”.
WOW MOSS, it only took you 15 words to get to a personal attack!! You know, you have nothing really to add, when you resort to personal attacks!! GREAT JOB!!!
Point taken bilze (regarding friggin libs). However, that being said, it was a statement directed at a group, and not a single individual.
As far as the main diaologe here, I really dont care what the government is doing to those people. Once again, they are not American Citizens, and they are out to kill us/our way of life. And btw, they are getting treated better than any other time in history in warfare. Lemon Peppered Chicken, and lines pointing to Mecca, Not too shabby, ask the WWII prisiners if they woudl have like to have Lemon peppered chicken!?!? I can guarentee they would have traded the dirt rice with maggots for it. In fact, the Jappaneese didnt even give them the abilty to pray. Took the bibles and so forth away. We furnish copies of the Koran (Quaran, Coran, however its spelled) I am tired of hearing from the mambee pambies, who have no recollection of history, or knowledge of it. I would not even care if we kept them there for internity. However, thats not an acceptable solution.
Torture, ask the Americans that have been killed by acts of terror if their families have been suffering the torture of their loss. Ask the innocent citizens of many other nations of they are experiencing torture at the loss of their family members. You cry about human rights violations and torture at Gitmo, you support closing Gitmo. When you son or Daughter Dies in the next terrorist act because a prisoner was released from Gitmo I wonder will you still think these people are Human and deserve any rights. This act of closing Gitmo is nothing short of criminal, I am a Veteran of 25 years in the military, I have lost friends because of these monsters and you want them put back in action. Where is America heading? You people are nuts. Release them and you risk more death, did the Americans in 911 die for nothing? will innocents around the world continue to die for nothing. You people who support this action sicken me.
A Vet.
some were innocent,that’s the point!your country has totally brainwashed everyone into anti-east….if you didn’t interfere it wouldn’t happen.
A rational human being
and by the way SHADONE, the government for which you risk your life is responsible for those terrible events. They could have stopped it but didn’t.
It’s a weak mind like yours which allows these things to continue.
Nothing changes until people realise the lies which are pumped into their heads 24/7.
America is an antagonist and is more responisble for the sorry state of this world than anyone and until you and others like you can realise this, the tragedy won’t end.
#28–Shadone and UNCLE DAVE: “When you son or Daughter Dies in the next terrorist act because a prisoner was released from Gitmo” //// A lot more likely the next killed Son or Daughter will be because we unilterally for no good reason invaded Iraq, failed to establish law and order, and used torture. The establishment of Gitmo alone is hardly even a footnote.
Uncle Dave–I know you think moral relativity is a crime against good thinking and morals. Should amuse you to fall victim to it.
Bobbo, are #28,#22 popular opinions in the US?
I find it so difficult that people can be so blind to something so obvious.
#32–Jimbo==only a valid survey could show that. My own “gut” feel is that such attitudes are very prevalent. Americans form their personalities off TV and right now one of the most iconic characters is “Jack Bauers (Bowers?)” a spy type guy who “bucks the system” by violating direct orders and killing and torturing whoever is in his way to get the bad guy.
He is quoted as if a real person by most of our political leadership.
He has otherwise rational people like Uncle Dave on the ropes about the morality/pragmatism of torture.
Its not “America” that will corrupt/is corrupting the World, but rather Hollywood and Business forming the consuming culture of avarice and class envy wrapped in religious self-righteousness.
But as I said===we need a valid survey cause I’m just projecting my own prejudices. Thanks for the invitation to do so.
anytime,
thank YOU for the posts, extremely informative, keep it up
#34–jimbo==My posts are not informative. The are attitude and opinion pieces most often even somewhat detached from “facts.” Its all interactive and definitional but facts are easily manipulated whereas morals should be constant .
The big trick is choosing the right morals. The most often failure there is substituting religion for morals which is the devils trick. ((Devil = Agent of God)).
If we talk long enough, I’m sure to piss you off. Thats my goal, but to do it honestly.