The commandments include ‘Thou shalt not kill’, but we still train and maintain armies and armed police forces. Why? Because, distasteful as it may be, sometimes killing is for the good of our society.

The US constitution says free speech is to be protected. Is there no room for exceptions here, when we can accept exceptions to the bible’s commandments?

There is a social value in having taboos. You can tell a lot about a society by the taboos it keeps. A society that has taboos about childhood sex, for example, is a society that wants to protect children from predators. A society that has taboos about symbols associated with xenocide wants to remember and avoid the mistakes of the past.

If you remove the taboo, you make the associated behaviour easier. In the one case, most of the western world has laws banning sexual images of children. In the other case Germany has laws banning images associated with the holocaust. In both cases the goal is the same: Retain the taboo. Make it clear, through law, that the associated behaviour is unacceptable.

There is a spectrum here, without absolutes. Are comments about Islam, such as the ones you say John made, so abhorrent to our society that they should be banned outright? Is child sex so abhorrent to our society that it’s images should be banned outright? Is the holocaust so abhorrent to our society that it’s symbols should be banned outright?

Your choice. Pick where you live and vote for people who agree with you. The Germans have decided. I’ve made my views clear.

Brian.

So I guess you would ban anything that fits that criteria? Maybe we should fine John Dvorak for some of his posts about Islam? Or how about people that make anti-Christian statements?

Anyone know the history of this law? My guess is that this law isn’t really German but was imposed by the US and others who were worried about a return of the Party.

Maybe with America’s much less restrictive freedom of speech, we find restrictions on thought un-comforting, I know I do. Yet, if we look at the history behind this restriction, it does make a lot of sense. When will a sufficient period of time have gone by? I don’t know, but obviously there are still wounds.

The one thing I do hope for is that the memory of what happened during the Nazi’s reign of terror never leave us. Too many have suffered far too much for their lives to be lost in vain.

I’m not going to imply, I can tell you, yes! and the most fundamental of them all is basic right to live. You take this one away and you take them all away – that’s what Nazis did ten times over … this law has nothing to do with freedom of speech.
Let’s imagine something for a second – take 9/11 multiply it by many 1000’s, add to it torture, death by starvation, rape, gas chambers, pseudo-medical experiments, etc. then place swastikas on the arms of those that did it and tell me what laws are appropriate, what treatment should receive those that try to follow the footsteps of those that did it, what treatment should receive those that are only being suspected of “something” (without any proof) …. I guess I don’t have imagine such horrific scenario, I can just look around, look at the laws this government is passing now… and the fact that man in charge still has over 40% (and rising) approval rating tells me more than I ever wanted to know.

Free speech is a concept our society values, and values highly. I agree with that. Free speech is important for the proper functioning of a democracy. The electorate cannot make informed decisions if the government or courts control or curtail debate and communication.

Our society also values life. We will take extraordinary measures to protect people’s lives, and save the lives of people injured. At the same time we will put our emergency services personnel our soldiers lives at risk. We will actively kill people who are a significant threat to our society, so there are things we value above individual lives.

Our society also values liberty. As far as possible people will be left free to travel, to meet with whomever they wish, and have other liberties. At the same time we will lock up people who break our laws. We will exclude, or even deport, people who cross our borders without permission. So there are things we value above liberty.

Is there nothing we value above free speech? I think it is important to remember and abhor the holocaust. Having some taboo symbols helps us to do that. I think that is a small, acceptable, restriction on free speech in favor of another important value.

So yes, I think this is more important and fundamental than free speech.

Brian.

Yea… But you and I both know that damn Hindus are up to no good.

And that’s the point, the USA has a First Amendment that makes freedom of speech mandatory.

Unfortunately, the rest of the world doesn’t have one and even though “civilized” countries may boast of their freedom of speech, the reality is that the goverments can still silence anyone they want just because they can.

IMO, let the germans decided wether allow or now allow that symbol to roam freely.

Comment by Brian — 10/3/2006 @ 1:28 pm

I appreciate everything you said and your cool headed appraisal of the situation commands respect. But I’m confused about something. Are you implying that there is something much more fundamental and important than free speech?

The United States has a few problems. In fact, we almost corner the market on imperfection. There are many valid points that can be made that we suck. Our educational standards are weak. Our executive branch is corrupt, and our legislative branch not too far behind. Our people are slaves to consumerism and corporations are the real shadow government that rules our country…

But we have the First Amendment. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Despite the surplus of commas, it’s truly the one perfect sentence that makes the Constitution beautiful and the nation great. It’s the one unique law that is supreme and absolute and not replicated in any other country.

If America is a beacon of light to anyone in the world, the First is the filiment. Free speech is challenging and laden with risk, but if I nation can accept the responsibility for it, it will be great.

On the historical view: I believe there is a very real and well-founded fear that the lessons of the past will be forgotten, and that the holocaust will recur. There is plenty of food for that fear in the racist and xenophobic comments across Europe as the EU expands. There is a debate here in Ireland again about whether to allow citizens from the new EU states into the country freely. Some of the debate is about economics, much of it is racism and xeonphobia.

Given that background, it is no harm at all to have a constant reminder of the evil of racism and xenophobia taken to the extreme, as it was in Nazi Germany. Maybe that reminder will keep the lessons of the 1930′s and -40′s at the front of our minds, and remind us that we cannot afford to let extreme nationalist or isolationist policies take hold.

So I’d say this is not about free speech. It is much more fundamental and important.

Brian.