Say goodbye to individual property rights!

Published on October 22nd, 2006

Posted by SN in General

Reading the news lately you can’t help but get the impression that property rights are a thing of the past. We’ve all heard of the US Supreme Court decision in Kelo, which essentially holds that the government can order us to sell our property, who we have to sell it to, and how much we have to charge.

Friday it was uncovered that Arizona was arbitrarily taking money sent via Western Union and then making people prove it wasn’t related to drug trafficking.

Yesterday I read yet another disturbing ruling by a government. Someone was selling PSPs in Europe that they had bought in Japan. Let me stress this point: They did not steal a bunch of PSPs. They legally bought them! Doesn’t buying something mean you own it?! Apparently not.

Anyway, Sony did not like it so it brought a court action against the reseller. A UK Court determined that because the PSPs were resold “without Sony’s consent” it violated Sony’s intellectual property rights. Apparently buyers of Sony products have somehow lost their rights to resell their stuff.

Of course, that decision isn’t exactly new. It’s currently illegal under the DMCA to modify your Xbox in the US. And way back in 2002 a UK court determined that the supermarket chain Tesco could not buy Levi jeans outside the UK and resell them in the UK. Again and again, IP rights are trumping real property rights.

I can’t help but wonder when the US automotive industry will jump on this bandwagon. Imagine the increased sales of new cars if used cars were made difficult to resell?! That’s essentially what the government of Japan has done to the used car market over there. (see also the “How do I get a car” section of the Japan FAQ here and this article here.) It should be noted that Japan tried to do the same thing with electronics, but pulled back a bit.

Enjoy the property rights you currently think you have. You know, like selling your car or tinkering with your electronics. You probably won’t be able to do these things much longer.

48 users responded in " Say goodbye to individual property rights! "

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# 1 Kind-a-Captcha Sucks said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 5:09 am

Ok, WAY off topic here, but I have to ask. Is everyone else getting this idiotic “Kind-a-Captcha” thing where you have to input like 6 or 7 alpha-numeric code just to post here?

It just sucks…get rid of it John. Or have I been flagged for some reason…making me jump through a hoop just to post?

# 2 DeLeMa said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 6:20 am

Initially, I had to do the same thing but lately, I musta been granted a cookie or some-such as I can post without the robo poster catcher schtuff…maybe it’s my lack of grammatical finesse ??

# 3 woodie said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 6:27 am

Usually, it’s only the first time — in my experience. And if you show up w/same Commenter info [in Wordpress] there’s rarely any need for repetition. Saying that, there may be additional modifiers at this site.

# 4 DeLeMa said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 6:27 am

On topic..as best I can anyway…
This is the stuff most near and dear to the constant burn in my bum.
It’s wrong and “they” know it so, how come none of the idiots supoosedly running these corporations can figure out how they’re f***ing future generations ? I truly don’t get it. Is it true that the current philosophy for corporate types is everything should be copyrighted by somene, including all the natural resources on this planet ? I used to love sci-fi but, I don’t need to read what I live with. Can I catch a cab to the next planet ?

# 5 DreDub said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 7:34 am

The depths of human greed never ceace to amaze me.

# 6 doug said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 8:22 am

on topic – IMHO, unless you are granted outright ownership rights over an item (resell and fair use), I don’t think it should be advertised as for sale.

no more, ‘Own “Over the Hedge” on Tuesday, October 24!” The advertising should be required to state “Obtain a limited license to ‘Over the Hedge’ on Octobert 24, with the following restrictions …” some rapid-fire disclaimers like on prescription drug advertising.

it is false advertising to assert that we will be allowed to own these items if we pay for them, when in fact we only have a very limited right to use. therefore, it should be disclosed at the outset.

# 7 Pedro said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 9:02 am

Very good idea Doug. False advertisement is a way to get this idiots

# 8 lou said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 9:28 am

Ah the hypocrisy forum rides again! First off IT’S A COMPLEX WORLD OUT THERE, WITH COMPLEX ISSUES .

1. Some license/laws/controls are needed. #6, I hope we can all agree on an ethical basis that buying the copy of Over the Hedge does *not* give you the right to make unlimited copies and give or resell them. Do not assume “fair use” is such an acknowledged concept, there are many people on both sides of the issue.

2. As to the PSP issue, the gray market (quasi-legal imports) is also a complex issue. For example, I think that drug companies should be allowed to sell to 3rd world countries at below cost, without having to worry that those drugs will come back to the 1st world on the gray market. The “one-same price” for everybody in the world is surely not the most, humane.

3. As to the Intellecutal vs. Real property rights questions, its a new world out there, and this forum should be ahead of the times, not behind it. Basic point: Intellectual Property is pretty much the only property these days (with some obvious exceptions, such as Real Estate). When things are manufactured in the 3rd world at extremely small percentages of what they sell for, let us all understand that the value is in the IP, not the RP.

I’m not at all an advocate for governmental control of the markets, but we have to make decisions like that as a country, and hopefully do what’s best for us in the long run, not just the short run.

# 9 gquaglia said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 9:36 am

I can’t help but wonder when the US automotive industry will jump on this bandwagon. Imagine the increased sales of new cars if used cars were made difficult to resell

Yeah kinda like Vista, 2 installs then it won’t work anymore. The auto industry could try this (only allowed to sell the car once) and state it has to be that way for safety reasons. Or they could lock it down, so you couldn’t do any modification or add anything to the car that wasn’t dealer authorized. DMCA would back them up. I can definitely see this coming.

# 10 Olivia O. said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 9:41 am

I was surprised three years ago to find that the Sony radio I bought did not belong to me. It said so right in the owner’s manual. Now that it’s broken maybe I should send it back to Sony and let them dispose of it. Too bad I threw away the (over)packaging.

# 11 doug said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 10:28 am

#8. Ownership is a ‘bundle of sticks.’ each stick represents a different property right – right to use, exclude others from using, sell, duplicate, and so on.

if you ‘buy’ a DVD, you are down to a very few sticks, so you dont ‘own’ it the way you own many of your other possessions. I just think that the advertising should accurately reflect that. Or more realistically, if media producers are faced with the prospect of accurately describing what their customers are buying, would lighten up on their opposition to fair use.

And no, nobody would think that they could make unlimited copies, but one could reasonably assume that one had the right to make a disposable copy for the DVD player in the minivan, or rip it to play on your PSP or video iPod.

but you don’t.

# 12 malren said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 10:49 am

We’ve all heard of the US Supreme Court decision in Kelo, which essentially holds that the government can order us to sell our property, who we have to sell it to, and how much we have to charge.

Not quite. Kelo is worse than that. Eminent domain always said that we could be fored to sell and a court could set the price. Kelo now breaks the one caveat that the public and government always had regarding eminent domain: that the land taken would be for PUBLIC USE. Kelo now allows the land to be taken and sold to private developers to be used in a for-profit, privately owned venture.

THAT, my friends, in one of the things over which we fought the American Revolution. Here we are a scant 230 years later, codifying one of the basic reasons against which we fought into law. And you can’t blame the Republicans or Democrats for this one; last poll I read was that uniformly, across party lines, 74% of all people disapproved of Kelo. This time 5 of the Supremes went out on a limb unsupported by anyone.

# 13 dusan maletic said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 11:02 am

Posting #8 shows how our rights have deteriorated in our own minds. I’ll post my common sense on items #8 mentons:
1) Very good comment, but it leaves out the crucial detail… Producers of the content went way beyod the fair use and got (via highly paid lobbying groups) laws in place that restrict how I can use content purchased from them, reducing the rights courts already have given to the users in the past… Severe punishment of violators COUGHT in the act should be the protection, not me beeing unable to listen to the music on whichever device or watching video at its best via whatever device. Worst example of already existing and court-confirmed rights beeing violated.
2) World market is already totaly globalized. Market should regulate prices. If I purchase item A whereever in the world legally and legally import it (paying taxes/dues) wherever else, I should be able to resell it. Prescription drugs example: chemical companies should set realistic prices. Fact that they can sell very cheaply in third world shows that they are ripping off the first world. Why should they be protected in such ripoff? Even if the first world is rich.
3)Good point, but that fact does not allow anyone to restrict what can be done with the physical item containing IP as designed. Particularly when the context is irrelevant to the IP (example of the Sony preventing resale of their Japanese units in EU… Which part of IP was violated? Did anyone rip it out or alter it ? NO…). Again, protect IP by severely punishing violators, not by restricting my lawful use.

# 14 doug said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 11:05 am

#12. Kelo is only an incremental expansion of eminent domain power. the definition of ‘public use,’ has been getting broader and broader, until it included everything the public was allowed to use, even if it was in private hands, like a shopping mall or football stadium. In past days, states could even delegate eminent domain to private parties, allowing railroads to force sales of property to lay tracks, because the public was allowed to use their trains.

in a nutshell, Kelo was bad, but not revolutionary. seizing property to build an apartment complex is not all that different from seizing property to build a bowling alley.

were I to limit eminent domain, I would limit it to seizures for public -owned facilities like army bases or hospitals and require ANY private owners, whether building condos, railroads or strip malls, to obtain voluntary consent for sales.

# 15 Brenda Helverson said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 11:39 am

I can’t help but wonder when the US automotive industry will jump on this bandwagon . . . .

I was shopping for a rebuilt engine for my 1991 GMC Jimmy and came across a request to support a Congressional bill that wopuld prevent car manufacturers from limiting technical and other service information on their automobiles to authorized dealer repair shops.. After reading the bill, I surmised that this was already becoming a problem.

# 16 BgScryAnml said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 11:51 am

WE THE PEOPLE, end up with this kind of crap because the Republicans and Democrats allow special interest; RIAA, THE BIG 3, INSURANCE COMPANIES, ET AL, to write legislation.

# 17 Mike Voice said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 11:56 am

Someone was selling PSPs in Europe that they had bought in Japan.

Funny how their market being global has made this possible.

How long ago would an electronic device for the Japanese market have been useless to someone who does not understand Japanese? i.e. menus and button labels?

Now, “universal” icons – or just colors – are used, and the firmware can switch the menus to any of several languages – so central manufacturing can supply a worldwide market.

If you want to mess with someone, borrow their digital camera and change the language to something else – and see if they can reset it to the “factory default” [meaning: marketing region] language… without looking at the manual.

e.g. My Nikon D50 can be set for: Deutsch, English, Español, Français, Italiano, Nederlands, Português, Pусский, Svenska , Two types of Chinese (Simplified and Traditional? Mandarin and Cantonese?), 日本語, and 한국어. [gotta luv unicode support in browsers]

But – since it was sold by Nikon USA – it defaults to English when reset.

The D50 example just goes to show the court case is not an “intellectual property” issue, it is a “market segment” issue. No different than the region encoding on DVDs.

# 18 DeLeMa said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 1:04 pm

#8. Hogwash ! When I can’t backup s/w for my own safekeeping and I have to rely on the whimsical goodnature of some mega-conglomerate to keep my business running I get really perturbed.
Your statements smell a whole lot like nationalism/protectionism, imho, certainly not very forward thinking. I get a great idea for a spiffy new product, I get a patent and then, I sue anyone who even remotely looks like they’re incorporating my idea ? Is that how all these “new world” concepts work ?!? Looks like just another avenue for corporate lawyers to justify their existence…..again,imho.
#14. No potshot here but, the creeping increments of laws, such as kelo, don’t excuse us from stopping or preventing them. At least, I fail to see any real benefit to the “public” when they appear to make it easier for politically connected, high dollar campaign contributors to acquire some poor slobs’ home and property simply because he can’t afford to compete?
You know, I keep reading this blog because I find the comments to be (for the most part) well thought out and researched replies to on-going issues that really and truly disturb me. I don’t have a lot of time to sift through a bunch of different sites nor are there many in my location who have the time or inclination, as may be, to converse with and get a little reassurance that someone in charge has a freaking clue about what they’re doing to us little guys. I feel like a masochist in this society which probably wouldn’t be all bad but, I can’t afford to keep paying for the beatings I’m getting. Someone send money !!

# 19 JimR said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 1:17 pm

Just to read what some of you post, you’d think you weren’t living in a democracy. Your government represents the people who voted them in. If government actions are so damaging to the majority, they shouldn’t last long unless indifference to your cherished “freedoms and rights” isn’t as important to the majority as you think. Voting apathy seems to support this idea. Get more involved in real politics and organize yourselves like the special interest groups and lobbyists do and you won’t have so much to complain about. Freedom has always been and will always be something you have to fight for. I see a lot of bellyaching on these threads, but few suggested pragmatic solutions or reports of personal progressive action.

# 20 malren said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 5:14 pm

Your government represents the people who voted them in. If government actions are so damaging to the majority, they shouldn’t last long unless indifference to your cherished “freedoms and rights” isn’t as important to the majority as you think. Voting apathy seems to support this idea.

Do you not understand that Kelo was a Supreme Court decision, and that Supreme Court Justices are not elected?

# 21 doug said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 5:39 pm

#18. no potshot taken, but my point was this – there was hysterics about kelo, but anyone who thinks this is particularly new hasn’t been paying attention to the last 150 years of takings caselaw. reading kelo itself reveals how thoroughly this power has been abused.

# 22 doug said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 5:41 pm

#20. but the taking of property is done by elected officials. thankfully, unlike the violations of many of our other rights, this offense against the right of private property has not gone unfought – many states are passing legislation to limit hte power of eminent domain.

# 23 JimR said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 6:17 pm

In answer to your question, Supreme Court Justices rule on laws that elected politicians make. It would seem logical to lobby and support politicians who would pursue changing such laws so they are less vague/open to interpretation, and more palatable where individual rights are concerned. To take it further, if the fears i see expressed on threads like this one and more so the Western Union money grabbing fiasco, are valid, why not organize and fight for it. Look at France VS Apple.

# 24 Greymoon said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 8:01 pm

I own what you are reading now. By reading this you agree to send me one (1) US Dollar. I reserve the right to charge you more at anytime in the future. Failure to pay will result in reasonable charges to collect debt.

Have a nice day.

# 25 bob muggles said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 9:09 pm

24 – Greymoon. I sent the $1. Let me know when you get it. I post marked it Greymoon, USA. Maybe Santa Claus will deliver it.

# 26 joshua said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 9:27 pm

#12…….Malren….actually what you can blame are Liberals. The 4 Liberals on the court voted in favor of Kelo…joined by the one Centrist.

# 27 Greymoon said, on October 22nd, 2006 at 11:45 pm

#25
It has been received postage due. I have authorized Santa Clause to collect his fees plus another US Dollar since you obviously read it twice.

Copyright 2006 Greymoon, All Rights Reserved.
Names, characters, businesses, organizations, places, events, and incidents are used fictitiously. Any resemblance, to actual persons living or dead, events, or locals is entirely coincidental.

# 28 joshua said, on October 23rd, 2006 at 1:51 am

I have to mention that the part of this topic posted is just plain wrong. The Sony part. I was reading the BBC new online and found the real story.
The real reason Sony said it would sue to stop the sale is simple……they had already planned for a 2007(March) delivery date of the new units to the E.U……and this would have violated their rights as copywright holder, for the Chinese guy to sell the playstations ahead of Sony.

Here is the link to the story…..it explains it much better than I can.

SN….imflammatory headlines and write ups are so cheap blog stuff.

# 29 joshua said, on October 23rd, 2006 at 1:52 am

and i completely forgot to post the link….lol

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6076354.stm

# 30 Bekende Vlaming said, on October 23rd, 2006 at 4:16 am

I am not familiar with the case, but I assume that SONY’s actions are based on its copyrights and/or trademarks.
As an owner of copyrights and/or trademarks, you control the first commercialisation in the European Union of products incorporating such copyrights and/or trademarks. This legal rule does not affect ownership rights on the products an sich.
To state that the resellers lost their right to resell the copyrighted/trademarked items in the European Union is plainly wrong, since they never acquired that right in the first place: they could only acquire that right by buying such items in the European Union, id est items that were commercialised in the European Union with SONY’s consent. You can argue whether exhaustion of intellectual property rights should be limited to the European Union or should be worldwide, but this is where the law stands at this time.

# 31 AB CD said, on October 23rd, 2006 at 7:43 am

>can’t blame the Republicans or Democrats for this one

Republican appointees voted 4-2 against, and Democrats were 2-0 in favor.

The auto industry banning used cars is already happening. Just look at verious states emissions rules.

# 32 OhForTheLoveOf said, on October 23rd, 2006 at 2:04 pm

SN: I haven’t read this whole thread yet, and don’t plan to comment this time out… I hate seeing personal freedoms abridged and we all know that I think corporations are too powerful, so I really have nothing fresh to say…

But I do want to say that I really like that you’ve posted a position in several paragraphs with embedded links to related articles. It feels more like a real blog, and I think you are the other editors here should actually “write” more. Anyone can read the news. The perspectives offered about the news is more interesting than the news itself and helps generate better discussion I think… (in spite of the first three comments)

# 33 Sandy said, on November 7th, 2006 at 11:30 am

its easy for you to say!

# 34 Shorn Arkham said, on November 26th, 2006 at 10:36 am

Bloody Americans!

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# 36 TIHZ_HO said, on January 22nd, 2008 at 3:45 am

#1 Kind-a-Captcha Sucks –

Well why not register then? Once logged in you are free to post.

*************

“Your government represents the people who voted them in.”

More to the point “The people get the government they deserve.” I believe Thomas Jefferson said that and how true it is!

Look at what a mess everything is and then look how engaged the general population is in running the country. Yep…!

You don’t need to be a member of Mensa to understand that.

Cheers

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# 43 Inchirieri Masini said, on February 9th, 2009 at 4:15 pm

Good point, but that fact does not allow anyone to restrict what can be done with the physical item containing IP as designed.

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It is the price we pay for taking all the shit we can from the newspapers. Yes we do.

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# 47 Alexandra Bucuresti said, on November 25th, 2009 at 1:28 am

It would seem logical to lobby and support politicians who would pursue changing such laws so they are less vague/open to interpretation, and more palatable where individual rights are concerned.

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