Belly of the Beast Dept. Christian teens rally to save San Francisco — Progressives Response? Promotion of Sodomy.

Christians as bad as the Taliban? A group which kills others for believing something different than what they believe is the same as people standing up for their values? I think the man meant HE was like the Taliban – restricting the freedoms of Christians. By the way, Jesus even said how can you love me when you don’t do what I say. Don’t try to say Christians are as bad because of the Crusades. That was hundreds of years ago – get over it. What the “progressives” were saying was, “You can’t believe what you believe. You must believe what I believe – morals are relative.” That is intolerance.

Oh, the humanity!!…..”pop culture icons do not represent our values,
Judeo-Christian beliefs are being labeled as intolerant, activists seek to remove God from our schools…We recognize the value of each life, whether born or unborn, and we seek to protect those who are unable to protect themselves”.

“The Crisis: Corporations, media conglomerates, and purveyors of popular culture have spent billions to seduce and enslave our youth. So far, the enemy is winning. But there is plenty we can do. We need to take action. We need to answer the Battle Cry.”

Apparently you can answer the “BattleCry” by purchasing the $20.00 “Branded by God” t-shirts and $40.00 “Warrior” hoodies through their online store. They are in stock and available for immediate shipment. Buy two because when WE do it, we’re not trying to seduce and enslave you….

Creepy? Oh, yeah……

If Christianity was an operating system it would be DOS 6.66. It just can’t handle the apps of today. Christianity is absolutely obsolete.

Followers of organized religion do, and have done, throughout recorded history, coaxed, begged, threatened, tortured, extorted, run guilt trips, bribed with money / sex / promises of rewards and in fact, engaged at some point in just about every possible way of recruiting people to join their mob.

Atheists and agnostics – some of them, far from all or even most – will endeavor to demonstrate to those willing to listen why it is irrational, regressive and counterproductive to the advancement of humanity to suspend logic and reason and to accept ludicrously absurd superstition.

Bandying the word “tolerance” around as if it were some sort of unquestionable virtue is crap. We as a society and as individuals are intolerant of many things. There is no reason why we should tolerate violent criminals. No reason why we should tolerate psychopathic manipulators. No reason to tolerate leaders who would deceive us, impoverish us, enslave us.

Tolerance is only to be extended to those people and things which are, if not good and positive, then at least are not destructive, disharmonious or detrimental to society.

The body of rational people is under no obligation to tolerate those who promote the wrongdoing of illogic and irrationality.

Graham, why don’t you and those who share your beliefs simply look at a map of the world and note the countries where ignorance, violence, and the whole panoply of human misery may be found – you will find, as others have done, that the most civilized of the world’s societies are those where religion does not hold sway.

Better yet, let me offer a favorite illustration of the accomplishments of religion and reason in concrete form, showing by clear example what each brings to humanity’s table: take a good long look at what human rationality builds and what religious superstition does to it here.

In hundreds of billions of years of human existence (that is, billions of human lives lived over the last 2000 years), the absolute, exact, precise-to-the-limits-of-conception amount of evidence of the existence of the Judeo-Xian-Muslim “G-d” or “God” or “Allah” is this much: none. Zero. Zip. Not. One. Single. Subatomic. Particle. Ever. Anywhere. Anytime.

That – if you are sane, and you have functional reasoning skills that haven’t been short-circuited by childhood brainwashing, peer pressure and insecurity – should tell you all you need know.

And elsewhere, life in the real world continued as normal – people kept both their preferred orifice and deepest beliefs as private matters.

Also to #7 LAUREN the GHOTI – you wrote too much, nobody will ever read all that.

Ya. She had me going till the fourth paragraph. Then I realized that this person is not very tolerant of my time.

By, Atheists and agnostics – some of them, far from all or even most – will endeavor to demonstrate to those willing to listen why it is irrational, regressive and counterproductive to the advancement of humanity to suspend logic and reason and to accept ludicrously absurd superstition., are you referring to Mao Tse-tung, Karl Marx, Napoleon Bonaparte, and Stalin, and all the great works they did for humanity?

or are their Atheist/Agnostic versions of Mother Teriasa, Martin Luther King, Ghandi, or William Wilberforce (the Amazing Grace Movie) that I (and perhaps the World) haven’t heard about?

#1 >>Christians as bad as the Taliban? A group which kills others for believing something different than what they believe is the same as people standing up for their values?

“As bad” is a hard one to defend but…

I personally know many Christian and Muslim conservative fundamentalists and even the stray Taliban. It’s clear to me that these groups have more in common with each other than with we liberals.

#5 If Christianity was an operating system it would be DOS 6.66. It just can’t handle the apps of today. Christianity is absolutely obsolete.

What percentage of the world’s 2.1 BILLION do you know so well that you can make this sweeping proclamation?

#7 Atheists and agnostics – some of them, far from all or even most – will endeavor to demonstrate to those willing to listen why it is irrational, regressive and counterproductive to the advancement of humanity …

Talk of atheistic “enlightenment” would be big news to the THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of my fellow pacifistic Mennonite brothers and sisters who were jailed, killed and starved to death by the aggressively atheistic communists. Why? Because refused to embrace atheism.

In light of the 20th century slaughter by atheists OF MILLIONS OF INNOCENTS, it’s stunning arrogance for any atheist to claim they are more humane or more enlightened than the religious.

#10 I’ve heard the Christian message several times, but there are people dying every minute, going to hell because they’ve never heard about Jesus even once. Christians should be going to Africa, or even to the Middle East where many people still don’t know about the Savior.

Fundamentalist Christians believe that nearly everybody is going to hell but most mainstream and liberal Christians (the vast majority, I should point out) have a much higher view of grace than that.

Remember people — before you make sweeping judgments and proclamations — we Christians make up ONE THIRD OF THE WORLD.

We are at every level of society; at every level of education and intellegence and come in every political stripe. We are everywhere in every country and of every ethnicity, age and, of course, both genders.

Also, we Christians are also both gay and straight — which gets us back to this article. .

Sorry for the rant but — no offense — some of you guys are so ignorant of Christianity yet so opinionated. It’s an irritating combination.

#15 – Since when did popularity make something right? Yes, Christians make up one third of the world….so what? It amazes me that in this day and age there are so many people that hang on to these silly…yes silly…superstitions.

Do you REALLY believe this bullshit? Here, a wiser man summed it up better than I ever could:

“Religion–easily–has the Greatest Bullshit Story Ever Told! Think about it: religion has actually convinced people–many of them adults–that there’s an invisible man who lives in the sky and watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And who has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to remain and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry, forever and ever, till the end of time…..but he loves you! He loves you, and he needs money! He always needs money. He’s all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, but somehow…he just can’t handle money. Religion takes billions of dollars, pays no taxes, and somehow always needs a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy shit!”

Come on, I don’t care how many degrees you have or how many books you’ve read or how many people believe just like you do. If you believe in this crap, then you’re not all there mentally. I’m sorry, I used to have religious tolerance and I respected others beliefs that were different from my own. But not anymore. It’s gotten WAY out of hand and when other peoples beliefs start interfering in the way I live my life, then I have to call them out for what they are.

#1 – “Christians as bad as the Taliban? A group which kills others for believing something different than what they believe is the same as people standing up for their values?”

Spend about a minute reading some of the things Catholics and Protestants did to each other in Northern Ireland for thirty years, and you’ll see what it means.

Neal in Ireland

Whatever,

Why Progressive (NAZI/Commies) don’t like Christians.

Someone that is putting their pecker into body waste, crap, doesn’t want to be reminded of what’s on their pecker?

Homos are Darwin’s answer to Creationalism?

Morals should not be in public arena, we should just by what?

Atheist don’t believe in right or wrong, just what’s efficient?

Atheist aren’t religious, they just have faith that Chrisians are wrong?

Christians are aginst sin, abortion, adultry, fudge packing, theft, jelousy and Atheist are for this?

Christians believe in tolorance, but not participation. Atheist are interested in new victems?

Christians believe in life, Atheist believe in abortion, Youthanasia, drugs, pornography?

Progressives think that the earth was created by hapenstance, but everything else is done by science. That’s why each time science revises their theories it conforms more and more to the Bible (Big Bang)?

Atheist arogantly believe that they created mankind, by mistake and have continued to try to correct it ever since, Stalin/Hilter/Mao/Idi-Amin/Tito/Carter. Sorry the last simply agreed with their interpetation of human rights?

What can you expect from Dehimmi Atheist, if you were to line up eveything satin would be for they stand toe to toe in lock step with him. Of course satin doesn’t exsist, but evil does and here in the states we call it a Democrat/Liberal/Progressive/Commie.

#15 wrote: “Also, we Christians are also both gay and straight ”

Man, talk about an existential dilemma. How many prozacs go with that?

#17 3000 plus years after. Now is when you realize is way out of hand? I gather then that it was not out of hand say, 500 years ago.

Youthanasia is teenie Euthanasia, right?

Both sides hav a fundamental right in the USA to be able to assemble and voice their opinions. This does not automatically infer that either side will have its message accepted or that either side will not have its message thought of as contemptable or laughable.

If christians are so up in arms that their messages are being considered foolish or laughable by seculraists, that’s TOO BAD. Jesus said the world hated him before it did his followers, so GET A HELMET people! If you get all bent out of shape and feel like you are being mistreated or thought of as intolerant, then welcome to what Jesus went through! You’ve gotten a taste and you you don’t like it, boo hoo. He didn’t say it was going to be a picnic. So suck it up and keep focused on what he was saying.

I am personally offened every single time a christian barks that they are getting a raw deal when Jesus said they’d get a RAW DEAL. Look if you can’t handle the heat, please go to some other religion. Like buddism where no one really cares what they say or do. But PLEASE don’t be a christian if you can’t take the pain of ridicule or oppression. If this was 150CE they would have been rounded up and killed, BE HAPPY its NOT 150CE. It could be a LOT worse.

If you don’t like the repercussions of having that faith, you should leave it. Otherwise, shut up and take it. Jesus said you WOULD if you LOVED HIM.

It doesn’t matter what the constitution says, its what God said that mattered and he said you WILL SUFFER. Do what he said about fasting and such in the bible. Wash your face, put on an image that nothing is wrong and let NO ONE know you suffer. Bless those that mistreat you and DON’T sink to THEIR level. Yelling and screaming back at them will not do anything at all.

Cursor_

To al bickers, re #7, you’re wrong. I read the whole post. It’s the most coherent and correct post on the list IMHO, though there are a few other good ones.

To Lauren the Ghoti, great posts! I’m glad to see you and some other antitheists speaking out so eloquently.

Ryan, good examples, except that I’m not so enamored of Mother Theresa. My understanding, though I could be mistaken, is that she loved the poverty of the masses, and saw it as a tool by which she could further spread the word of her vision of god. She did little or nothing to alleviate the conditions of poverty she saw around the world.

Laurent the Ghoti, I am surprised that you didn’t point out the significant number of studies now showing a high correlation between religiosity of a society and violent crime in that society. The U.S. is, of course, way off the charts on both counts. But, the correlation exists and holds quite well throughout the developed, democratic nations of the world. The developing nations and non-democratic nations were deliberately left out, at least in the studies I read, to keep to a level playing field where people have the means and the choices available to make such a study worthwhile.

So, if violent crime is higher where religiosity is higher, what does that say about the morals derived from religion?

There are also some very good studies about human moral centers of the brain and morality across a wide variety of cultures. Luckily, our morals do not come from religious works or we’d still be stoning people to death for working on the Sabbath, homosexuality, and wearing wool/cotton blends.

Maybe the Mayan priests will come out to San Francisco and clean up the bad spirits there, after they’re done with Washington DC.

Managing the cult is TeenMania.com, whose broken-home upbringing led to degrees in counseling and… shhhhhh … psychology. He also has an honory doctorate from Jerry Falwell and has George Bush’s ear as a drug advisory committee member sponsored by the gov’t. Sooooo… he’s well versed in manipulation, and since teenagers are so very manipulatable… And, oh my Gosh! You can still be a teen, enjoy rock music, eat junk food, wear t-shirts with stuff written on them, hang out with friends and … oh my Gosh! It’s … it’s… it’s not a cult! It’s God!

#21

Facts and evidence are the answer to creationism.
Homosexuals are a part of nature just as are people that are stupid and people that are born with a high level of intelligence.
Atheists are not religious, they just have evidence that Christians are mistaken.

Atheists cannot be against “sin” until we define what “sin” is. I would bet that there are differing opinions amongst atheists about abortion. Since atheists are not confined to the myopia of a 2 year old watching a commercial, I suspect that the majority have no qualms with homosexuality, feel that adultery (depending on what we mean) is harmful, are most definitely against theft and could care less about jealousy until it leads to actual harmful behavior. I would bet that most atheists would accept euthanasia as being ethical under specific circumstances like the Terry Shavo case and I would suspect that most atheists could care less what you read and watch and what you do while watching it as long as you have the choice to watch and read something else.

RE: Christian “tolerance”
You mean the same Christians that feel that homosexuals are evil? You mean the same Christians that tortured people to confess they were worshipping Satan? You mean the same Christians that think that everyone not baptized is going to hell? You mean the same Christians that sent armies into the middle-east to “liberate” the holy land? You mean the same Christians that felt that childhood indoctrination was not enough and thus had “Under God” stamped on everything to thwart the “evil” atheists? You mean that kind of tolerance?

RE: Creationism
I’ll leave that for another day. Suffice to say that scientific theories on the Big Bang are ever changing and due to the recent discovery that the universe is not only expanding but do so at an accelerated rate, there have been challenges to the single Big Bang theory.

RE: Human Rights
Read after me very carefully: Hitler was a CATHOLIC not an atheist. He was a fanatically, frothing-at-the-mouth Catholic that felt that he was doing God’s work by killing almost six million Jews.

Thomas – RE: Human Rights
Read after me very carefully: Hitler was a CATHOLIC not an atheist. He was a fanatically, frothing-at-the-mouth Catholic that felt that he was doing God’s work by killing almost six million Jews.

Adolf Hitler was as much a christian as Hussein was a muslim and Kei-Shek was a buddist!

JUST because someone SAYS they are this or that about themselves does not MEAN they are that. We all know of wolves in sheeps clothing and cannot for a second think that is what they truly are.

There has to be PROOF by actions to know if it is true or not. Hitler’s actions were NOT of a christian by the standards set by Christ. But then neither are MANY leaders christian by that criteria. But PIETY is GOOD for politics. Always has been since shamans came around. The leader professes the shaman is right and the shaman supports the leader. Its been there ever since there was religion.

Is it true, look at the pudding. There’s the proof. If atheists place faith
into Hitler being a real christian, then they can also believe in ANYTHING. Ergo just as retarded as they claim others are.

Cursor_

#7, Lauren, I read your post twice. Good post, and excellent points!

#37
Hitler was a practicing Catholic. He went to church regularly, consulted with priests and wrote extensively about his beliefs in Mein Kampf. He ruled over the former Holy Roman Empire. Hitler was considered by many, including the Pope, as being very pious.

If we are going to go down the road of stating that people are Christian only by how closely they follow the ideals set down by their prophet, then it should be clear that no Pope (with the possible exception of Peter) were or are Christian. No where does Jesus say anything about massive accumulation of wealth, consolidation of power or creation of “holy armies.” Furthermore, we need only reach back into the Bible to find numerous examples of accepted, even encouraged torture and brutality to support the argument that Hitler was doing “God’s will” in a way consistent with Christian beliefs.

Thus, your argument that Hitler was not a Christian simply because he acted in ways contrary to Christianity is empty. You cannot logically (granted I realize I’m talking to a religious person where logic is not highly regarded) argue that all bad people that claimed to be Christian are not “really” Christian and thus claim Christians are actually “good” while at the same time claiming that bad people of other beliefs are evidence that those beliefs are bad. You are attempting to revise history to fit your view of the world. Sorry that simply doesn’t work. Hitler was a Christian just as the Crusaders and the Inquisition.

#1 has it right.

Why do people get upset when “Christian” (I put it quotes because the terms is more nominal then an actual description) assemble or rally to a cause.

Last I recalled “Christianity” is not a requirement in this country? Last I recall “Liberals” can have their own rally? Which group is being the hypocrite here?

As far as intolerance, each group set its rules for inclusion. I’ve meet more militantly intolerant Liberals then in any other group. That is certainly my read of the postings here.

Liberals tend to be some of the most angry people in the world, always looking for a cause, because they have no cause of their own. They exist just to be angry, because they don’t fit in anywhere else. So they always throw stones, hence the working definition of a liberal.

#43 noname writes about liberals, saying “They exist just to be angry, because they don’t fit in anywhere else. So they always throw stones, hence the working definition of a liberal.”

At least when these people you’re calling liberals throw stones, it’s only a figure of speech. When people of faith throw stones….. well, you’ve read the Bible — it’s a blood sport

Maybe I’ll beg off with the same excuse proffered by some of the Christians in this thread. Those aren’t really true liberals doing those non-liberal things, just as the “Christians” who killed so many people in God’s name weren’t really true Christians.

#43
[Liberals] “exist just to be angry, because they don’t fit in anywhere else. So they always throw stones, hence the working definition of a liberal.”

I’m always fascinated by the American English usage of the word liberal.

The Oxford Dictionary defines liberal as “willing to accept or respect behaviour or opinions different from one’s own; open to new ideas”.

Reading some posts here, one might assume that the definition would be closer to “bright red, raving communist”.

When and why did this innocent little word become so debased and distorted – or does this tell us something about the centre of gravity of American political opinion?

In the end, all these teens will get drunk and wake up with a sore anus.

#37,
If atheists place faith into Hitler being a real christian, then they can also believe in ANYTHING. Ergo just as retarded as they claim others are.

If it requires placing “faith” then they aren’t atheists. It would be those that place “faith” in things that can believe in anything regardless of how irrational or “retarded” (geeze, how juvenile that word is, typical Christian reaction?). That would include the religious wing nuts.

I don’t care that Hitler was Catholic or Stalin was atheist. They were bad people who had their own values and human life wasn’t one of them. The only justification for killing is in self defense, something both the Bible and Koran do in spades, with their god’s justification.

#52, Li,
You make compelling arguments about faith. For the simple reason that we are incapable of proving every point, we must have some faith. Yet, my faith is all based upon something physical or provable. I can’t prove that my wife has never had an affair, yet I have the utmost trust that our relationship is and has always been strong enough to make that improbable.

To have trust that others have performed their job is fundamental in our society. When one of the people that report to me say they completed a task I take them at their word. I don’t need to verify. The same is when I read a piece of research. Only if I am more then interested would I ever research the citations provided. I trust the peer review to do their jobs. Yet, I want all those citations in case I want more information on that specific thought. All this is based on trust, not faith. Trust requires something verifiable as a base. Faith merely requires an explanation without having any foundation.

Most arguments here dealing with faith tend towards religious faith. There is no proof or evidence for their belief other then what they believe. This is the faith many people find dangerous and destructive. I recommend you re-read post #17 by None.

Morality is not owned by any one group. Nor can following that morality make you a follower. To follow non violence isn’t a faith based idea, it is a matter of self preservation. If we kill everyone, then the species will die off. The same may be said about assault, theft, or any anti-social behavior fitting into group dynamics. It is for the sake of the group or society that we have common morals.

#53, Mr Fusion… nicely said.

Damn..typing too fast..that should read: “…there is a difference between faith and trust…”

#56, Of course non-violent protest will only work in societies that have a conscience. Otherwise it may become a matter of self defense.

Did the white Southern racists have a conscience when MLK confronted them with pacifism? No.

Did the British colonists have a conscience when Ghandi confronted them with pacifism? No.

Pacifism is the most powerful when there is absence of conscience because it nurtures and demands it of your enemy — which creates the possibility of real change for the better.

#60 This is the secret. The only true Christians aren’t very ‘religeous’ as it now means, as that means exclusion and judgement, which is contrary to loving everybody. Saying “I am saved and you are going to hell.” is taking God’s work and making it our own. But few churches avoid this fatal hubris.

#29 said: “I am surprised that you didn’t point out the significant number of studies now showing a high correlation between religiosity of a society and violent crime in that society”

Yeah, right!!!

#35 said: “…Atheists are not religious..”

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. Atheist believe in science, facts & themselves.

#46 because they weren’t jews. And if you go and ask the Church of Jesus of Latter-Day Saints, you’ll see that Jesus appeared to the North American Indians.

#59
> Did the white Southern racists have a conscience when MLK
> confronted them with pacifism? No.

On the contrary, the nation as a whole most certainly had a conscious going back to the Civil War with the abolitionists. In the 60’s the fact that there were numerous protests in favor of Civil Rights is a clear indication that the nation as a whole was willing to entertain open debate about the issue and be swayed by examples of unjust treatment.

> Did the British colonists have a conscience when Ghandi
> confronted them with pacifism? No.

Similar to above, because the British allowed for open debate and considered themselves a “civilized” society, the effect of violence against Ghandi’s non-violent protest clearly contributed to the British relinquishing control of India. Had it been Hitler’s Germany, Ghandi would have been executed along with most Indian without remorse or feeling.