Judge determines that privately run US Post Offices cannot promote religion.

Published on April 25th, 2007

Posted by SN in General

Courant – April 25, 2007:

A federal judge has ruled that post offices across the country that are run by churches and other organizations cannot promote religion through displays or other promotional materials.

In a decision involving a church-run post office in downtown Manchester, the judge sided with a town resident who said his First Amendment rights were violated by the Christian displays.

The religious displays “put the church’s beliefs front and center, out for the public to see, endorsing the church’s form of Christianity and seeking outsiders to join the church in its mission,” U.S. District Court Judge Dominic J. Squatrito wrote in a decision handed down last week.

The displays “violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment,” Squatrito wrote.

According to court documents, the court found that the contract postal unit run by Sincerely Yours Inc., “is so entwined with the Postal Service that the [contract postal unit's] actions may be considered the actions of the Postal Service.”

33 users responded in " Judge determines that privately run US Post Offices cannot promote religion. "

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# 1 bob said, on April 25th, 2007 at 3:46 pm

Freedon of religon not FROM. Are you liberals afraid of stained glass or what?

# 2 Kevin said, on April 25th, 2007 at 4:04 pm

I’m torn on this one. If they are taking government money, they should not be promoting a religion, but that’s my wacky Libertarian views for ya!

# 3 Jerk-Face said, on April 25th, 2007 at 4:08 pm

1. Can you explain the concept of “freedom of” when the choice is made for you by someone else and then is crammed down your fucking throat? Thanks.

# 4 Podesta said, on April 25th, 2007 at 4:27 pm

‘From religion,’ as bob put it, is in fact part of what the Establishment Clause covers. Not only does the First Amendment protect against the government favoring a particular religion, it protetcts against the government favoring or establishing religion, period. bob could not be more wrong.

I haven’t read the court’s opinion, but it would fit in with the Marsh series of First Amendment cases. If a private entity exercises government like authority then it becomes subject to some of the same requirements that apply to government. Other cases have involved company towns and shopping malls.

# 5 BubbaRay said, on April 25th, 2007 at 4:43 pm

Bet Bertram Cooper is now on 1,000 mailing lists for religious materials. You want mail — dude, you got it. Here it is: Don’t honk off the zealots. Maybe he’ll get the JW’s to deliver his mail.

# 6 rectagon said, on April 25th, 2007 at 5:22 pm

Fundamentatheists unite!

# 7 Misanthropic Scott said, on April 25th, 2007 at 5:50 pm

#1 – bob,

Actually, freedom of religion does and must imply freedom from religion. Any alternative denies the freedom to choose none of the above.

Further, do you honestly believe that the religious displays represent all of the faiths of the world? If not, then any not on display are not free to make their choice. So, were there wiccan symbols there? How about symbols of the Norse gods. I’m an athorist myself, but would be less offended if I felt that all religions were equally represented, still offended, but a bit less so.

What about some scientific symbols for those who choose reason over archaic mythology? I would like to see a symbol of an atom or a half dead/half live cat or maybe a symbol of a supernova that gave us the heavy elements necessary for life.

Or, wait a minute, how about a big bang? We could put up an artists rendition of Zaphod Beeblebrox and Eccentrica Gallumbits; theirs was reputedly the best bang since the big one.

# 8 Don Marsh said, on April 25th, 2007 at 5:51 pm

It’s a good thing the early patriots were allowed to meet in those churches. Now you can do waht the founders intended and cut them off at the knees. Thanks.

# 9 Misanthropic Scott said, on April 25th, 2007 at 5:52 pm

#6 – rectagon,

If you don’t mind, I prefer the term antitheist.

# 10 Jerk-Face said, on April 25th, 2007 at 6:00 pm

6. “Fundamentatheists unite!”

I realize that thinking is hard for you, but the lawsuit was brought not by an atheist, not by an agnostic, not by an unbeliever of any sort. It was brought by a theist who decided he didn’t like someone else’s religious beliefs crammed down his throat every time he decided to mail a letter.

He’s acting the same way you will when your kids come home after being forced to read from the Koran in public schools. You guys have wanted religion in public school for so long, you’re just not going to be happy with the religion that’s taught.

# 11 Misanthropic Scott said, on April 25th, 2007 at 6:36 pm

#10 – Jerk-Face,

Why not the Kama Sutra? It could fill two important lessons, religion and sex education.

# 12 cts said, on April 25th, 2007 at 9:20 pm

It’s things like this that make Americans look like a bunch of nut jobs to those of us of who in the rest of the world. Firstly, your paranoia about religion is simply just silly. Grow up. The presence of religion in your public lives will not destroy your country, Secondly, your USPS is not owned by the government, it is an independent company with monopoly. Your forced separation of church and state does not apply her. And finally, this article refers to privately owned postal outlets. Again, that’s *privately* owned. This is not a public, government service, so your separation of church and state again does not apply.

There are civilised countries in the world that do not force this crazy behaviour. We in these countries do just fine. In contrast, you Americans, with your absurd idea that religion and politics are incompatible, are having all sorts of problems with extremists and fundamentalists on both end of the spectrum. You Americans may want to stop and think about that a bit.

# 13 Phil said, on April 25th, 2007 at 9:57 pm

It still amazes me how backwards the US is. Here in the UK we moved on from bizarre supernatural beliefs years ago, just leaving a few crack pots to keep worshipping the sun.

# 14 lens said, on April 25th, 2007 at 9:59 pm

I’m not sure I agree with the court decision, but it seems that all these cases can be answered by a simple question that you can ask yourself. Would you still defend the religious display if the religion was not yours?

# 15 joshua said, on April 25th, 2007 at 10:44 pm

It always amazes me to read the posts from the anti-religion commentors. Why are you brave souls so afraid of religious symbols if they are just superstition as you claim? Are you all so feeble brained that you can’t look at a cross or a star of david or a muslim symbol without being immediatly overwhelmed with the desire to repent? It’s funny, I don’t have any feelings what so ever when confronted with some religious symbol.

The Europeans above have a great point, this just isn’t an issue in any other western nation. It only seems to be a problem in backwards countries such as the middle east or the U.S.

The constitution is quite clear on this…..we have freedom OF religion and the goverment can in no way favor one religion over another or establish a state religion.
Your problem with religion and those who have a belief system other than science is simply one of your own intolerance.
These sub stations are privately owned and contract with the goverment to perform postal services. They don’t sign contracts saying they must emasculate themselves in order to sell stamps. They are not an arm of the goverment any more than H&R Block is.

Some of you come in here and scream that religion is being shoved down your throats because someone said God bless you to you on an elevator or something just as silly. Geez, grow up, and get a life.

# 16 John Paradox said, on April 25th, 2007 at 11:59 pm

Would you still defend the religious display if the religion was not yours?
Well, I suspect this cartoon would answer that for most.

J/P=?

# 17 John Paradox said, on April 26th, 2007 at 12:01 am

Some of you come in here and scream that religion is being shoved down your throats because someone said God bless you to you on an elevator or something just as silly. Geez, grow up, and get a life

So, when the Muslims come and tell you your wife/girlfriend/sister/mother MUST wear a burkha, you will help her pick it out?

thought so

J/P=?

# 18 jz said, on April 26th, 2007 at 2:25 am

My post office truly believes in freedom of religion and allows ALL religions to be represented. You can find the Christian signs below the Nazi swastikas and above the Satanic cult posters.

# 19 BubbaMartin said, on April 26th, 2007 at 3:06 am

16, Comment by John Paradox — 4/25/2007 @ 11:59 pm

Which cartoon? Link seems to be a ‘main page’.

# 20 Jerk-Face said, on April 26th, 2007 at 3:44 am

15. “Why are you brave souls so afraid of religious symbols if they are just superstition as you claim?”

Why are you right-wing-religious nuts so afraid of nudity and sex? They’re both completely natural. I propose all Post Offices should henceforth sell sex gear. Buy a stamp, get a dildo. Mail a letter, get some porn. We’ll see how you guys like having stuff crammed down your throat. (Actually, you guys probably like it that way, but you’re too uptight to admit it!)

# 21 bac said, on April 26th, 2007 at 5:26 am

According to the article, a contract postal office should be kept separate from the main business or function in the building. When someone walks in the building there should be an obvious break between the two operations.

What needs to be determined in the Sincerely Yours Inc. case is just how separate were the operations?

Also according to the article, it was not an atheist that brought Sincerely Yours Inc. to court. It was a person of the jewish faith.

I guess the jews are just as intolerant to the christians as atheists.

# 22 Misanthropic Scott said, on April 26th, 2007 at 7:19 am

#15 – joshua,

You asked, “Why are you brave souls so afraid of religious symbols if they are just superstition as you claim?”

My answer is that I do not fear such symbology. I fear religion and its followers. I fear because of the crussades, the inquisition, abortion clinic bombings, doctor shootings, jihad, and all other killing in the name of religion.

We are a violent species. We kill for all sorts of ideology, including non-religious ones, such as communism. Religion simply provides one more way that humans divide Us from Them. It is always OK, often pre-ordained by a mythical sky spirit, to kill Them.

We must realize instead of embracing divisive and sectarian ideologies that we are all Us. There is no Them. Humans went through a bottle neck about 70-80,000 years ago. There were only about 3-7,000 humans on the planet at the time. We are thus all very closely related. We are all cousins or closer. We have an incredibly small gene pool.

So, when I am subjected to godvertisements for a sectarian, divisive, and violent religion in government facilities in a country founded upon the principals of not establishing a national religion, I am offended.

# 23 dvorak fan said, on April 26th, 2007 at 8:05 am

I don’t care if the contract stations are privately owned. I don’t think ANY business that is not itself a religion (because let’s face it, religions are businesses and that’s all they are) should be displaying or promoting religious ideas to it’s customers.
It is not the place of a business owner or manager to take it upon himself to proselytize to his customers.
For example, when I go to the dentist and sit in that chair, I should not have to be subjected to religious programming on the TV placed unavoidably in my field of vision and listen to the “go god” banter of the dentist and dental assistant. I came to get my teeth worked on, not to go to church!

# 24 OhForTheLoveOf said, on April 26th, 2007 at 8:34 am

#13 – Geeze… Listen here Union Jack , we wouldn’t have this Bible Thumper infestation if you had banished your damn Puritans to some remote island instead of sending them to the New World.

# 25 Shawn Milochik said, on April 26th, 2007 at 8:40 am

Okay, so I read through the article and the posts here. I don’t see anywhere where it said whether or not they receive government money. Did I just miss it?

If they do receive government funds, then they shouldn’t have any religious message forced upon their clients. If they do not receive any of my tax money, then they should be able to do what they want. It is the right of every individual to choose not to patronize any private business for any reason.

For the record, I’m an atheist.

Shawn

# 26 John Paradox said, on April 26th, 2007 at 9:40 am

Which cartoon? Link seems to be a ‘main page’.

Frazlsnatz…. use the date selector for 08/02/05…

J/P=?

# 27 John Paradox said, on April 26th, 2007 at 9:43 am

Humans went through a bottle neck about 70-80,000 years ago. There were only about 3-7,000 humans on the planet at the time. We are thus all very closely related. We are all cousins or closer. We have an incredibly small gene pool.

But.. I thought the Earth was only 6,000 years old?

Trivia question: Xians say we are all descended from Adam and Eve, but there’s a more recent ‘bottleneck’ according to the Bible. Can you ID the event? and the family?

J/P=?

# 28 Misanthropic Scott said, on April 26th, 2007 at 10:09 am

#27 – John Paradox,

Noah and his little ark with 2 of each of the 10,000,000 species on the planet, right? (Oh yeah, don’t forget, 7 pairs each for the kosher animals.) Pew that place must’ve stank. And what about enough food for all of the animals?

I still like the far side comic of Noah saying, “Well, so much for the unicorns. From now on, all carnivores will be confined to C deck.”

But actually, isn’t it all members of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic religion who go by the Adam and Eve thing? It’s certainly all of the Judeo-Christian subset.

Also, my version of the story:

Adam and Eve had two sons. The end.

# 29 Jerk-Face said, on April 26th, 2007 at 1:59 pm

21. “I guess the jews are just as intolerant to the christians as atheists.”

You cram religious crap down our throats and yet you claim we’re intolerant? Oh yeah, we’re the bad guys. The fact that you are completely intolerant of any other faith or belief system is completely irrelevant.

I’m really looking forward to the day when religion is mandated in public schools and your kids are forced to read from the Koran and pray to the east. I’ll be laughing so hard I’ll probably shit my pants. But it’ll be worth it.

# 30 TJGeezer said, on April 26th, 2007 at 3:00 pm

Forgot who said it but – “fundamentatheist” is word Kurt Vonnegut would have had fun with.

I don’t care if a private post office that gets no government subsidy displays religious crap on the walls. Euro snobs may think the American fixation on separation of church and state is laughable and low-class, but they’ve never seen personally how violent and intolerant those faux “Christians” can get when they think they have the upper hand. Maybe that’s why in their superiority they’re allowing fundamentalist Muslims to dictate so much of their public policy. I don’t wish them ill, but if they keep the way they’re going I expect sometime to have occasion to say “I told you so.”

# 31 Jerk-Face said, on April 26th, 2007 at 3:17 pm

30. “I don’t care if a private post office that gets no government subsidy displays religious crap on the walls. ”

You apparently don’t know this, but there really is no such thing as a private post office. The USPS has a legally mandated monopoly on the mail service. If you want to mail a letter, you have to use the USPS. You want to receive mail? You have to use the USPS. You ever wonder why FedEx doesn’t leave packages or envelopes in your mail box? it’s against the law. Only the USPS can leave stuff in your mail box.

If Wal-Mart decided to push a Christian agenda, I wouldn’t care. I could always go to K-Mart or Meijer, etc. But when a government mandated monopoly starts pushing an agenda, that’s when I do care.

There’s two ways to enable tolerance for other people’s points of view. One way is to include everyone’s view. But that’s impractical. The other way is to make it neutral to points of few. That’s what the separation of church and state is all about. We can’t please everyone, so the best we can do is to not favor anyone.

Under this system if you want to buy stamps, you’re free to do so without having anything crammed down your throat. If you want to pray to Jesus, you are free to go to the church or closet of your choice.

The only people who are not happy with this system are those intolerant souls who are not happy unless they’re cramming their beliefs down someone’s throat. Yep, I’m talking about Muslims and Christians.

Ironically, they are the first to complain about sex or violence on TV. For some reason they never want anything unpleasant crammed down their throats. Probably sexual frustration, I’d guess.

# 32 Podesta said, on April 26th, 2007 at 4:48 pm

Could DV put the name of the commenter at the top, instead of the bottom of the comment? If I had realized that long, vacuous screed was by Joshua, I could have anticipated it would be worthless and skipped it.

As J-F pointed out, delivery of mail is a function of federal government, as is regulation of transportation and commerce in general. I am not surprised that the Europeans posting to the thread have no grasp of the U.S. Constitution, however it is kind of embarrassing that so few Americans have taken time to familiarize themselves with this relatively short document.

One of the striking things about this episode is the selfishness of the attitude expressed by the denomination operating the post office. If it had any real sense of Christian charity, it would be pleased to provide a needed service without the proselytizing.

# 33 Mr. Fusion said, on April 26th, 2007 at 7:55 pm

#31 & 32,

Well written, I totally agree.

J-F, good argument.

Podesta, I loved your first paragraph, it gave me a good chuckle.

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