Nazi “enhanced interrogation” techniques are the same ones used by the Bush administration?

People love to compare the Bush Administration to the Nazis, but at least the Nazi Party had some concern for the average citizen (Aryan male ones anyway) — after all, it was at its heart a socialist workers’ party. Our current government is more comparable to Mussolini’s Italy. They were pure corporatists and fascists (which derives from the Italian word “fascii”, which were groups of business leaders initially formed to break strikes and fight socialism).

2,

Hitler H-A-T-E-D commies… It’s why he lost the war and opened the camps…

Socialists CAN be corporatists too. So long as the corps are government owned. Or at least government mandated.

#5 Rob

I think you are confused about what defines a “socialist” government.

Looks to me that they just want their boys to learn how thrilling it was to torture dark skinned folk and get a way with it just like they did in the mid 20th century.

The Bush administration has already flip flopped on global warming and I suspect he will disavow torture before he leaves office.

Tom (#11),
Expanding?!? I am no democrat but what Kool-Aid are you drinking?

Ethanol, let me answer my own question, I have never witnessed so much freedom of speech in my life. A lot of this has been brought by technology-the internet, this blog, youtube, podcasting, skype, documentary film, cable television, satellite radio…If you have an idea, an argument, a complaint..you have never had an opportunity like you do now to protest, or agree, or be funny. This was not true in Hitler’s Germany. This is obvious and it is actually become boring to state otherwise.

Natefrog, I have no interest in defending Bush. If you hate him, good for you. But you obviously have no fear of stating so and that is my point. Your freedom of speech is complete. This wasn’t true even recently here in the US. But under the maligned Bush there is no fear to practice free speech. Again this was not the case in Hitler’s Germany, which is the comparison that I think is ridiculous. Just out of curiosity tell me how the Patriot Act has robbed you of your liberty? And if you could, be specific.

#16: Hey, you were the one that said our rights are only “clearly expanding.” You defend what you said, too. You are aware that the freedom of speech isn’t our only right?

How about this: National Security Letters, sneak and peak warrants, and secret warrants issued in secret courts which can’t be challenged. Hurray for my rights to privacy and against unreasonable searches!

Open your eyes man, at the moment we still enjoy the freedoms, but if you cant see the erosion taking place you are either ignorant, in denial or not paying attention.

#19 – Natefrog, if someone is forcing you into a religion against your will…report him to the authorities at once.

In Indiana it is the authorities that are pushing their religion on us.

Where’s the beef?
Comment by Tom

Between your ears?

J/P=?

Tom, have you not been paying attention to supreme court rulings these last few years?

25. You would be guessing wrong. I know for a fact OFTLO is early 40′s (sorry man), myself, early 50′s a veteran, well travelled and nowhere as naive as yourself.

Tom, your argument is edging closer and closer to “if you aren’t doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear.” And we all know the fallacies inherent to that line of reasoning. . .

To Mike N, thanks you are the first person here who gave me an example of how his rights have changed for the worse since…whenever. But while I’m sure people have gotten onto commercial flights without providing an id, that’s been standard procedure for a long time before the Patriot Act, but to some degree you are right.

To Mark per #25. Sorry if I suggested you are younger than you actually are. That doesn’t happen to me too often anymore, I wish it did. You think I am naive because I don’t think today’s United States is anything like Nazi Germany? How does that make me naive? And as a veteran why would you say something like that?
And since you are older, do you think you have less freedoms today or say in the 1970? Can you give me an example?

I know that a law has been passed that you will have to be cleared by Homeland Security in order to obtain employment. I know that sitting on my motorcycle at a stoplight last night, and looking up at the light and noticing a camera staring back at me and wondering what the person at the other end of that camera is thinking. I know that every time I go through Customs to go to and from my home in the Caribbean, I was profiled and have to be strip searched (this as a result of getting pissy at the ticket counter, years ago because I decided not to board my connecting flight, and chose to drive instead), I have personally witnessed the heavy handedness and a change in attitude of the police (and as an ex Federal Law enforcement officer, I know abuse of power when I spot it). I know that I have to go through forced roadblocks in NM and Colorado, present my papers, have a flashlight shined in my face with suspicion, this NEVER happened to me in the 1970′s. I also know that the mechanism to control is being put quietly into place, because people like yourself dont see a problem with it, it will make us “safer”. Well, it wont. It makes it all too easy for the power in control to abuse. Just wait until you get your National ID card, with a magnetec strip that will contain much of your personal information. It will be great, they will tie it directly into your bank account and you can use it as a credit card too. But dont worry, your “purchases” will not be monitored, because the government wont be interested in collecting data about you. And if you purchase that carton of cigarettes, that data wont be passed on to the insurance companies. This stuff isnt science fiction, it is in your immediate future.

Mark, thank you for you sincere response.
My only objection is your categorization of me. I am an American. If anyone compares my country to Nazi Germany, I defend. That’s all. From the moment that comparison is made, I disagree. Dvorak just does it to get hits, but those who commonly use this rhetorical tool should stop. It is a loser. But they are free to do so…and lose.
Now I also stated that we are more free now than we were in the distant and even near past. And on the front of civil and social rights this is obviously true. So too on the technological front where people can communicate and express themselves in a hundred ways now, where once only CBS News and Walter Cronkite could. Travel too has opened up, not just (obviously behind what used to be the Iron Curtain) but to distant far off places one would only see in movies before, now people routinely vacation in places like Bali and Budapest. I doubt there is any sincere disagreement here. But there is the big Brother aspect that you have clearly stated. Everyone should be on guard, I agree with you. Concerning the National ID, how about just the SS # that really has already become the defacto National ID, no?

In fascist Germany, the Nazi used propaganda and fear to control the people, much the same as the neo Conservative right. Timid people went along to get along. If more people were to speak out against the fascists, just maybe they would have been able to derail the disaster that awaited. Its people who speak out before its too late that we would like to get to, including yourself. I agree it may be a bit of an exagerration to say we are headed to forced labor camps, total police state, etc.., But if will wake people up, then so be it. I love the internet and all the freedom of information it brings to us, I also believe that governments see this as a threat and something they need to get under their control. Like they have with mainstream media, and dont think they havent.

#23 – Tom, I’m not used to being accused of thoughtfulness, so I’m not sure how I should react to that

I’m 40… Around here, I’m in the middle. Are we freer now that in the 50s and 70s as you say… I suppose it depends on who you are. Am I freer? No. Am I repressed or oppressed? Honestly, not as such, not personally, at least, not so much so that I really notice.

Actually. I’m pretty strapped by the dark side a what we like to call a free market economy. I have a full time corporate job. I wear a tie and everything. I live alone. I live very modestly. I don’t own a TV so I pay electric, 1 cell phone bill, 1 rather low car payment, and 1 ISP bill. I’m getting killed by the costs of my company paid health care. I pay more in health care costs each month than I pay in rent.

I’m free. But if you and I are the same age, you will probably live 25 years longer than me (and I’m not making that up) because I am suffering more from poverty than from health issues. My company saves a lot of money by self-insuring and strictly controlling coverage. I think how smart and pragmatic the bosses are every time I see them leave work in their $100K cars and drive home to their million clam McMansions.

Am I a class warrior? You’re goddamn right I am. I work three times as hard as I used to and get half as much for it. I want my economic freedom back. If life for regular people gets worse, I’ll have to start figuring out how to take what I need rather than earning it. Like Jean Valjean, what choice will I have?

But we are likely talking about different kinds of freedom and different experiences, and when I say our rights are eroding, I also mean the rights of others that I have seen (through the media, that we have all seen)

Police violence against citizens “seems” to be on the rise. Police can no longer be held liable for executing warrants on the wrong homes or on the right homes that house the wrong people. NRA folks will argue that gun registration is an infringement (and obviously that predates Bush).

All these stories are reported in the major media. I’m not gonna footnote my memory. You know about the alleged drug dealing grandmother in Atlanta. It was blogged heavily here, what, about a month ago. I’m aware of high profile incidents of police killing innocent and non-threatening people (typically of color (an example of a group with apparently fewer rights than others as a result)) in Chicago, New York, Atlanta… and if you watch major headlines, you probably are too.

Yes, I can go where I want. I can travel inside the lower 48 pretty effortlessly except by plane, and I am white and my van is modest and un-rusty, so I don’t typically get hassled by the cops for driving too close to rich people. That isn’t a freedom everyone has.

Privacy. I can’t even get a telephone without having to worry that my phone records will just be handed out to whatever government agency feels like the 4th Amendment has been repealed.

I’d like to own property near the downtown and have a home there. I sure hope a private bio-tech firm doesn’t decide they want to be there too. They’ll just pay off the city council to abuse the doctrine of eminent domain and take what is mine.

Ask a small business owner if they feel like they are burdened by more regulation and red tape than ever before.

Ask a parent what happened when they sent their kid to school with a few tablets of Tylenol because the child had some discomfort from a recent dental surgery.

Often, more conservative folks will tell me about how free we all are. That’s very true for the straight an narrow who follow all the rules like a teacher’s pet. The status quo are quite free because they never want to do anything abnormal anyway.

In Indiana, a recent divorce case resulted in a judge awarding joint custody of a son to a father on the condition that the father never expose him to “non-traditional” religious activity or risk losing custody. The father was Wiccan. Here’s the rub. So was the mother, and they had no disagreements over religion or custody.

You might think the “In God We Trust” plates are no big deal, but then, you might be a Christian. I am not, and I don’t trust in God, and I don’t appreciate my money being used to promote Christianity by the state as is happening in Indiana.

Our president has effectively suspended habeas corpus and operates prisons for people who might, maybe, we don’t know, be terrorists. We seem to champion torture now. This is all for a Crusade against a fundamentalist religion, Islam, being waged by fundamentalist Christians. I see what Christians do with power. What will they do with me once they are done with the Heretics? Maybe the same thing the Muslims would do to an infidel like me?

We get talked to in short monosyllabic syllables in the voice of arrogant adults scolding children. We used to be the richest nation on Earth with the highest standard of living and absolute mobility, and we were a beacon to the world. We used to lead the free world. Now we are just disrespected thugs and we appear to be preparing to treat our own citizens they way we’ve began treating others.

Am I a free adult, free to make adult decisions and do adult things? If you think so, then lets share a toast. We can do that. But what if my vice of choice were marijuana, rather than the status quo choice of alcohol?

Show me where off the grid is…

Am I free? Pretty much, within reason, as long as I color inside the lines. But I can see the writing on the walls and I’d rather fight it now, than later when those comparisons to Nazi Germany seem much more obvious to everyone.

But how free are we? How many of us are afraid of the cops? How many are afraid of the government? How many feel powerless to affect change? How many feel disenfranchised, disillusioned, disaffected, and dismissed?

So… How free are we? How free are we going to be next year… a year after that… in five years… How free is fear?

OFTLO – Very nice rant. Unfortunately we’ll have to bill you for the space you used in the blog. You can just send your payment to me.

#42 – OFTLO – wow… eloquent and accurate. Thanks. And for those who don’t think the constant erosion of liberty has any consequences for the populace… geeze… go back to your Will & Grace reruns. Watching the news isn’t making any impression at all.

John Mitchell, Nixon’s first AG, was right: “This country is going so far to the right you are not even going to recognise it,” He said that in 1972, I think.

Thanks guys… I’m honestly humbled by your reaction to my post, which I didn’t realize was so long untl I finished it.

KVolk,

You know, it does seem like me life sucks. A side effect of diabetes is depression. But no matter how bad my life seems to me sometimes, there are millions more who would love nothing more than to live as well as me. When you are focused on your own trouble, its easy to miss your fortune.

But it’s life. Some days we revel in it and some days we are lucky to just cope with it. I used to be better off and I am smart and I am working on getting back to where I once was.

Without too much detail, I’ll say its an amazing lesson to learn what a few simple challenges not met well can result in. I went from a spacious hi-rise condo overlooking Lake Michigan in Chicago, with a woman I loved dearly, to being completely flat busted and holed up in a gracious friend’s spare room in Ohio in very short order, all as a result of events I honestly had no control over.

But I do have control over what I do to recover and I’m doing well and plan to be doing better. When you really see success and failure from every angle, you either get really bitter or really compassionate. I have bouts of both, but I’m pretty sure I’m permanantly a liberal now.

I believe in personal responsibility and self reliance. But I also believe in civil and social responsibility and I believe that fidelity to my fellow citizens of the world is a mandate we must all adopt. We need to stop asking, “What can I do to have a better life?” and start asking, “What can I do so we all have an opportunity for a better life?”

Working toward ending a culture of violence and conspicuous consumption is a good step forward. If done right, it’s probably also a good step toward ensuring we continue to enjoy and expand our liberties and extend this philosophy of liberty to truly oppressed corners of the Earth.

This rare flower power moment will not soon be repeated

#48, This rare flower power moment will not soon be repeated

Comment by OhForTheLoveOf

Your latest post made it in before my #49, so I didn’t have a chance to read it. I also have a rags to riches to rags to riches to rags bunch of stories, and doctors and lawyers have screwed me out of just about everything. But, hey, I realized I still have (some of) my family and a few living friends (absolutely the most important things in life) and I can still walk and fly airplanes IFR and research astronomy and cosmology (pays the bills) and occasionally go fishin’.

Depression is a debilitating disease, but just bantering around with the crowd here helps a bunch (if you ignore the insults and negative junk). Good luck and keep up the insightful and wacky posts!!

Well Tom, let me see.

Ten years ago I could drive to Canada to visit relatives, show my driver’s license and be allowed across the border, both ways. Need passports now.

I could buy some airplane tickets and fly to anywhere in the US, no problem. Today, I have to show all my ID and hope that I’m not on some list the Government won’t publish.

I could get a job with the Federal Government and not worry about being non-religious or an independent. Today, I really should be a born again Jebus freak and a member of the Republican party.

I didn’t have to worry that the police could just break down my door and shoot with no repercussions, other then one of those nasty civil lawsuits. Today, well, they can. And do.

It used to be that I could count on my physician making a correct diagnosis. Today, we have the Republican leadership making a medical diagnosis based upon a few seconds of video and passing a law based on the result.

I used to check out books from the library. Now, I don’t know if the library has been forced to reveal what books I borrowed but can’t tell.

My telephone records were confidential, by law. Today, the Government just asks the telephone company to hand it over, no warrant needed.

I used to telephone friends. Today I don’t know if the NSA is listening to what I discuss with my brother.

I could always stand proud when with foreigners and tell them what a great justice system we have here in the US. Today I am embarrassed that we rounded up thousands, of mostly Muslims, and held them on fraudulent “witness warrants”. Then we rounded up hundreds more and held them for years without access to legal aid, without charge, and without any rights. All the time in confinement they have been tortured.

Tom, this is a short list. To me, however, it doesn’t appear that our “rights” are expanding.

I don’t usually take it upon myself to get involved in any kind of discussion like this, but I can’t let it go.

Of course we still have our freedoms, for them to be abruptly removed would cause all of america to take up arms in protest of the government. However, you can tell that the media is being carefully controlled in such a way that people are distracted from what is really important. Every time you turn on the tv you are force fed loads and loads of bs from so called reputable news sources, who find more time to talk about sports starts and american idol than they do about political affairs. And if you don’t believe me, just think about the number of important news stories about the current administration that you can find and read about on reputable news sites on the internet that are completely blacked out and not covered on any US news station.

So what are you missing out on? How about NATIONAL SECURITY PRESIDENTIAL DIRECTIVE/NSPD 51 and HOMELAND SECURITY PRESIDENTIAL DIRECTIVE/HSPD-20, which give ol GW dictator like powers in the event of a vaguely defined national castastrophe? Or about the recent contract negotiations the administration has had with the former engineering subsidiary of Haliburton, commissioning them to build “camps” to safeguard citizens in the event of a national catastrophe?

They are just simply waiting for the right moment to finish eroding everything this country was built on, and I find myself hoping more and more that we will make it to the 2008 elections without a hitch.

Tom, re specifics.

Remember back to 2004. Because of the hoopla Bush had kicked up about the war you couldn’t have a rational conversation saying it was a bad idea. War protesters were “unpatriotic”. Dinner parties were nightmares.

Now more specifics. Because of Bush most the world thinks Americans are evil bastards. Outsiders confused the government with the people, and from their perspective they are right. And this makes me less safe.

More specifics. I have to wait sometimes hours for a “sideshow of security” at airports because of silly rules that add no security. Shoe scanners? C’mon this has nothing to do with it.

I can’t email with security as I know it’ll be picked up by the gvt. Not fake, true.

I can’t have some types of research go forward on diseases that I may die of because Bush gets has to pay off the religious lobbies that got him into power.

OK, want some more? I got thrown out of the country for 3 months on a stupid visa issue because a newly empowered border guard used the situation to have some power games.

Specific and personal enough?

What about the left and all the rights it takes away from us?? They raise taxes so much, what happened to the right i get my money that i worked for?? Why do they raise these taxes, so they can pay for more wasteful programs to help the illegal immigrants and the poor who do nothing but rely on these programs to survive, why should i have to pay for their survival?? They should work if they are able. They are illegal, so they work they do is not taxed, they put nothing into social security or medicare, but i do, how is that right??
The lefties complain how high gas prices are, do you know why?? Because for 3 decades they have fought and sucessfully made it so there have been no new oil refinaries built. They want cleaner energy, like wind turbines, do you know how many wind turbines you would need to meet energy demands?? The whole state of Massachusetts would have to be covered, and thats for todays energy needs, demand is only going up.

It makes me mad how people blindly fight for the “rights” these terrorist detainees have, hello people. they have no rights they are not citizens. These people want nothing more then to kill you, and when the government tries to protect you, all you do is whine how they are depriving people of the rights. What about my right to live, if these terrorists want to take that away from me, then the government should do anything in its power to prevent that. Who honestly cares if the government is tapping your phone lines (why would they bother in the first place??) if your doing nothing illegal there is nothing to worry about.

To Mr. Fusion, Good point about not being able to get into Canada without a passport. That is a bummer. But a lot of your other points just are not true. Since when do you need to be a Republican to get a Federal job? I don’t think we have a single Republican working at my Post office. Your doctor can’t give you a proper diagnosis because Bush won’t let him? Are you serious? I was asking for and received stories of how people had lost freedoms since…Bush’s presidency or the Patriot Act. Everyone here seems real afraid to go to the library now. It’s a long thread, but if you have time I stated how our rights have actually expanded as the country has gotten older. I’m sure you disagree, but check out what I said, if you have a moment, instead of just assuming you know my position.

a. Torture doesn’t work particularly well. Our intelligence has been wrong time and time again as a result of these methods. The same can be said for other countries who have implemented these methods. They seem to work because we have forced confessions and lots of innocent people to hang, but it’s a sham. That has been fairly well documented. Check out Amnesty International’s work if you don’t believe me.
b. I have a lot of rights. I probably haven’t been personally effected very much. Does that mean I shouldn’t mind when other people are stepped on? If I have the blessing of freedom, doesn’t that mean that I should work so others should have it? Don’t I have that obligation? I guess I could be selfish like Dan and say, in effect, screw everyone except me. But I’m not like that.
c. why does everyone get so butthurt when the Germany comparison is made? Don’t you think Germans were sitting around having this exact same conversation about their country during Hitler’s rise to power? “well, it’s not like we’re X, Y, or Z. That could never happen here.” Bull crap. When the people are not vigilant to protect against that happening, it will happen. That is the course of empire, and history has proven it with every single superpower EVER. We are not an exception, and when we cease to be an exceptional people we will go the way of every other empire.
d. People like Dan really, really terrify me. I won’t engage with him; he’s a lost cause and I don’t have an interest in converting someone so willfully retarded. Tom I would carry on a dialogue with, because it’s possible. I may disagree with him, but he listens respectfully and tries to engage in useful dialogue. I appreciate that. But our world will end in the hands of the little men and women like Dan who are willing to sacrifice everyone else for the sake of extending their own selfish little lives for a few days or weeks or years. Yes, I will whine when our government deprives people, anyone, of their human rights. These rights are not contingent on what someone has done or citizenship in the United States. I am not saying terrorists should walk free, but I AM saying that torture demeans us all and destroys the fragile fabric of our humanity. I AM saying that secret prisons and the suspension of ANYONE’S habeus corpus erodes the rights of us all. I AM saying that Osama bin Laden should not be tortured if he is caught. Do I want to have high tea with him? No. Do I want him to pay for violating the human rights of others? Yes. But that can be accomplished without walking all over the rights of us all. We can have justice in accordance with the moral high ground, standing for something larger than him rather than stooping to his level. We have done it in the past, and we can do it in the future too. Unless we succumb to the fear that would destroy us all.

Colin, I’m confused. You were thrown out of the country by an over empowered border guard over a visa issue. And you were accused of being unpatriotic at dinner parties for objecting to the war in Iraq. But if you need a visa to be in the US your not a citizen, right? So how can you be unpatriotic for objecting to the war if you are from a different country? That doesn’t make sense. Also, at which airport did you encounter this long delay. I made six separate flights to major US cities this May and encountered no waits at security. And how does any of this make the US like Nazi Germany?
And last which disease is Bush preventing research on? And how do religious lobbies profit from this lack of research on these diseases? That’s the craziest thing I’ve ever heard.

Mr. Fusion, I was supposed to know you were talking about Terry Schiavo when you stated you couldn’t get a proper diagnosis from your Doctor? I don’t know you short hand forgive me. Ditto for the comment about only Republicans are able to get Federal jobs, I had no idea you were talking about the fired US Attorneys.
I started making my point about the expansion of freedoms in the US around comment #14. Let me know if you like it. What a long strange trip this has been, but it filled up a rainy day for me.

You fail to see my point Ben, terrorists are out there cutting the heads off of live people and out parading and celebrating it while we sit here and bicker over whether people we have caught fighting the United States on the terrorists side should be held captive. You people fail to see we are at war. Those people choose to give up their freedom when they saught to commit crimes against America. I guess your one that feels every criminal held in prison should be let go then also??
I can see it happening already when the next terrorist attack against the United States happens, you will all blame Bush. Why didnt Bush prevent this? Why didnt Bush know?? I wonder why.

You attack my feelings on how my money is used. Is there anything wrong with myself wanting the money i earned in my hands??

I have no problem with immgrants wanting a new start and an oppurtunity. But when they break our laws, they have no place here.
I would like to see you come up with a way to combat terrorism without infringing on anyone’s rights, you cant without security screenings, ID cards, ect. If you let these people walk freely amoung you, how are you going to know who they are or what they are doing??
Without the patriot act, you would have to get a warrant and let the terrorists know you are tracking them, hmmm kind of eliminates the element of suprise. If they know their phones are tapped, do you really think they are going to spout over the airwaves about their attacks and such??? No.

Where did i ever say “screw everybody but me”???
I support liberating Iraq and Afghanistan. Those people enjoy much more freedom now then they ever did before the United States came in. Is Iraq a violent mess right now?? Yes, but the people there are free now and its up to them to decide their future, you cannot deny that they are more free now then they were under Saddam. So how am i being selfish there?? You people all want to run from Iraq and let the insurgants take control, how is that fair to the Iraqi people??

Mr. Fusion, concerning your use of libraries: Sorry, I thought everyone was using the library less since the internet is such a great source for information. Obviously, people still use libraries. Your other points on government being able to access personal information also warrants concern.

I’m sorry but when you said i was being selfish i thought you were referring to my tax arguement. Either way i responded to how i am not selfish on taxes nor am i selfish with my rights. I showed you how i am not acting in a manner of “screw everybody but me” attitude, but all you do is attack me for appearently not listening to you because i oppose what you are saying, sorry Ben, just using a little freedom of speech here, something you lefties forgot when you decided to hang Don Imus.

You must be pretty rich to not care about taxes, but for the 99% of the rest of us, we do.

I find it hard to listen to you when all you do is attack me personally instead of the points i am making. All you are saying is how i apparently dont listen, kind of hard to listen what you are saying when all you say is i dont listen.

Nazis drove VWs.

Where is the original German text?

It would be easy enough to post it for all to see and determine whether or not this is just another hack job.

Tom, you’ve done a good job at getting other people to explain their positions. Could you kindly now offer the same courtesy by being more specific when explaining your position as it relates to the article mentioned in this entry? I can understand how people get upset by unfair comparisons of the Bush Administration to Nazi Germany. However, regarding interrogation techniques, I don’t believe that this specific comparison is wholly unfair. If they use the same techniques, same justification, how is that an unfair comparison? I’m not trying to be obnoxious here, I would just like clarification on a point of view.

#66, Tom

I asked where you posted the freedoms or rights that have expanded. Your post doesn’t give any examples. Sure you might use the internet. That is a technological advancement, not a right. Courts have ruled that people may be denied use or access to computers and not everyone has ready access to a computer, so there is no right there.

From #14, I have never witnessed so much freedom of speech in my life. …If you have an idea, an argument, a complaint..you have never had an opportunity like you do now to protest, or agree, or be funny

Just plain wrong. I have always had the opportunity to protest, bring the matter to a politician’s attention, write a pamphlet, or even start my own newspaper. In fact, until recently, I could even go on a TV or radio station to offer a rebuttal to any editorial they broadcast; can’t do that today.

So what rights have expanded since 1994 when Republicans took control of Congress. Note I’m doubling the time frame of Bushes tenure in office.

Tom, quick now. You are being called to put up or shut up.

Previous post (#81) should be a reply to #77-80; apparently a post got approved somewhere while I was typing. . .

#83, Jacobak Terrorists are humans with a breaking point just like anyone else. Having experienced enough suffering and degregation, they reacted violently.

That is just absurd, Terrorists taking the life of other humans for religious (or any other) beliefs can never be justified. Good Grief !!

To Jill, good point. I reacted not to the article but to the comparison you mention, which I stated was ridiculous and a bad cliche that I would like to see ended. Others defended the comparison. I further went on to say that rather than having freedoms taken away during my lifetime spent in the US, I have seen a dramatic gain in freedom, for me, for you, for black people, for working women, for foreigners, for gay people, for handicapped people, etc. Believe it or not, I thought these points were obvious, but people disagreed, I think honestly so, and a healthy discussion followed.
My position on torture is I am against it. My position on this article is I would question it’s source and it’s validity. Gunter in post #76 brings up an interesting point.

To #11 – Tom.

- Freedom of speech? Freedom to associate freely and travel?

Are you aware that there are people in our secret CIA prisons for being friends and family members of suspects? or that if you show up at a Bush public appearance with an anti-Bush sign you will be put on the no-fly list ?

Eric

Aside from the obvious posts full of empty sentiments that are not researched or thought about at all, this is a refreshing thing to read. I am slightly happier to see that there are still people in America who realize that “freedom of speech” isn’t just “freedom to rationalize all of my fears without justifying them” but can be used to actually increase one’s knowledge and hence form one’s own opinions. Kudos, and remember: the rest of the world is watching.

I think your all a bunch of tin foil hat wearing nut jobs. Keep up the good work. With out people like you the rest of us would have no one to laugh at.

@jacobak

I’m glad to see someone gets the point. The US has been screwing with the middle east for decades. The Sep 11 bombings came as no surprise in this country.

I live in New Zealand – I lived in Urbana-Champagne (Illinios) for a year, before the Sep 11 bombings. Even then, used as I was to a relatively functional and liberal country, the US was shocking to me. Everything, from the food in Wendy’s to the news on TV was sanitized, watered-down junk. US citizens lived in blissful ignorance of their country’s *own history*. Most of them weren’t aware of the Vietnam War, of the Cold War, of sanctions against Cuba…nothing.

I, my sister and various friends were dismissed as “liberal hippies” or “nutcases” when we mention non-extreme, well documented historical facts. That’s right – US citizens regarded basic analysis of facts as “extreme”.

Basically everywhere I looked, the country was rotten. Meaningless news, brainless TV, terrible food, ingrained bigotry and racism, corrupt politics, abusive foreign-policy, merciless welfare system discriminatory laws, etc. And everyone there lived in a kind of daze – utterly failing to notice the slowly failing system around them, and engaged in a kind of perpetual game of “keep up with the neighbours”.

I am never going back. I’d probably be arrested for some arbitrary crime.

#89, Tom

You are still talking about opportunity, not rights.

I can buy a 2007 car that get superior gas mileage, more comfort, and is more durable then a comparable 1994 model.
My 2007 TV is bigger and gets more channels than the 1994 model.
Heck, even my 2007 model wife is bigger then the 1994 model.

But none of those technological achievements have increased our RIGHTS to be free from oppressive government.

So I ask you again, WHAT EXPANDED RIGHTS HAVE HAPPENED IN THE PAST 13 YEARS? Oh, wait, WAIT WAIT, I have one, Don’t Ask Don’t Tell. Yup !!! That is a right that didn’t exist before.

“Eric, if the CIA has a secret prison, how do you know who’s in it? And how do you know why they are in the secret CIA run prison? And if you know all this stuff, just how “secret” is this prison? Just curious. As far as the no fly list being full of Bush protesters, I was unaware of that. If true, that doesn’t sound good to me.”

“A” secret prison? No offense man, but you obviously have been living under a rock. And I noticed you get your news from 30 second “bits”, so I guess that is your TV. Which leads me to my following point and your main argument, freedom of speech.
Now while you may think we still have freedom of speech, what good does it do when the media is controlled and serves only those in power? In nazi germany it weren’t the “normal people” in the street who were silenced but those who opposed Hitler. And that’s exactly what happens in the US.

Fascist America in 10 steps:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html

This corruption and control goes far beyond the US alone though, and we only need to listen to the right people to know what is going on.

“We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries.”
- David Rockefeller to Trilateral Commission in 1991

Who says the U.S. isn’t like nazi Germany?

Oh, the uninformed… I guess…. well read this people

The phrase “Verschärfte Vernehmung” is German for “enhanced interrogation”. It’s a phrase that appears to describe a form of torture that would leave no marks, and hence save the embarrassment pre-war Nazi officials were experiencing as their wounded torture victims ended up in court. The methods are indistinguishable from those described as “enhanced interrogation techniques” by the president. As you can see from the Gestapo memo (click on picture at the top of this post), moreover, the Nazis were adamant that their “enhanced interrogation techniques” would be carefully restricted and controlled, monitored by an elite professional staff, of the kind recommended by Charles Krauthammer, and strictly reserved for certain categories of prisoner. At least, that was the original plan.