Comments on: Nazi “enhanced interrogation” techniques are the same ones used by the Bush administration? http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2007/06/01/nazi-enhanced-interrogation-techniques-are-the-same-ones-used-by-the-bush-administration/ General interest observations and true web-log. Mon, 13 Feb 2012 05:43:37 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Ryan http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2007/06/01/nazi-enhanced-interrogation-techniques-are-the-same-ones-used-by-the-bush-administration/comment-page-6/#comment-1041137 Ryan Wed, 19 Mar 2008 06:05:31 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=11732#comment-1041137 Tom, RE: #89 It is the technology of unregulated communication that has enabled the spread and freedom of ideas not any one particular political organization. The most current incarnation of which was, I will conceed, originally concieved by a government organization to replace AM ground transmissions and ensure a proper retaliation launch in the event of nuclear conflict. However, it was later put to use as a communication medium for the general populace and the concept spread far beyond ownership of one particular government entity. As such, I imagine communication will undoubtedly remain free, however it is the fear that one day an individual may be charged for something akin to "Thought Crime" for the free exchange of those ideas that bothers me. This may actually already be happening and as evidence I would like to present the case of Ms. Julia Wilson: A 14 year old girl who, knowing no better, posted what some would call rebellious and childish language befitting the attitudes of a young angst ridden teenager on her myspace page. She had not anticipated result of said rhetoric as a visit from the Secret Service. I am sure this was more than a minor inconvenience for Ms. Wilson, her family, her friends, and possibly even their casual acquaintances who had to endure what I am sure, while not nearly as bad as water boarding, was probably a terrifying round of interrogation. At this point I feel I must point out that I believe terror is a relative emotion and the idea of a visit from the men in the dark glasses would probably frighten most all-American, honest, and law abiding citizens. Tom, I cannot speak for everyone but as for me; it is not the loss of liberty I fear but the punishment and ridicule for exercising that liberty against the will of the rich, powerful, and wrongly influential such as men whose worth is judged by wealth rather than compassion and civic engagement. While I concede that this is not a direct removal of the right to practice my freedom, I feel that it does tend to toss a wet blanket on it when I consider that my views may be subject to ridicule from fellow citizens who imitate the beliefs of these individuals under the premise that it will bring them great wealth and power to end their personal suffering. Ostracism via excommunication is a worse punishment than death and it's easier to maintain. All you have to do is question a few of the neighbors, subtly mention that how the squeaky wheel gets everyone greased, and suddenly you are seen as a trouble maker planning to get the whole neighborhood detained. So, that’s my case for my paranoia and probably Ms. Julia Wilson’s newfound sense of paranoia as well… only it’s not paranoia if they are out for you and they did visit her so I suppose that means we’ll have to find another word for it. I bet you won’t find her musing for the proper words to describe it publicly… although she’s still free to do so… if that’s what she REALLY wants. I eagerly await your reply with a parallel example of "expanding" rights that are useful and that one can act upon. Hopefully, thanks to the wonder of the internet I won't have long to wait... unless I receive a visit from the men in dark glasses for this post… in which case I may never know how lucky you consider us all to be for living in the potential home of the brave and the land of the Tom,
RE: #89
It is the technology of unregulated communication that has enabled the spread and freedom of ideas not any one particular political organization. The most current incarnation of which was, I will conceed, originally concieved by a government organization to replace AM ground transmissions and ensure a proper retaliation launch in the event of nuclear conflict. However, it was later put to use as a communication medium for the general populace and the concept spread far beyond ownership of one particular government entity. As such, I imagine communication will undoubtedly remain free, however it is the fear that one day an individual may be charged for something akin to “Thought Crime” for the free exchange of those ideas that bothers me. This may actually already be happening and as evidence I would like to present the case of Ms. Julia Wilson: A 14 year old girl who, knowing no better, posted what some would call rebellious and childish language befitting the attitudes of a young angst ridden teenager on her myspace page. She had not anticipated result of said rhetoric as a visit from the Secret Service. I am sure this was more than a minor inconvenience for Ms. Wilson, her family, her friends, and possibly even their casual acquaintances who had to endure what I am sure, while not nearly as bad as water boarding, was probably a terrifying round of interrogation. At this point I feel I must point out that I believe terror is a relative emotion and the idea of a visit from the men in the dark glasses would probably frighten most all-American, honest, and law abiding citizens.

Tom, I cannot speak for everyone but as for me; it is not the loss of liberty I fear but the punishment and ridicule for exercising that liberty against the will of the rich, powerful, and wrongly influential such as men whose worth is judged by wealth rather than compassion and civic engagement. While I concede that this is not a direct removal of the right to practice my freedom, I feel that it does tend to toss a wet blanket on it when I consider that my views may be subject to ridicule from fellow citizens who imitate the beliefs of these individuals under the premise that it will bring them great wealth and power to end their personal suffering. Ostracism via excommunication is a worse punishment than death and it’s easier to maintain. All you have to do is question a few of the neighbors, subtly mention that how the squeaky wheel gets everyone greased, and suddenly you are seen as a trouble maker planning to get the whole neighborhood detained.

So, that’s my case for my paranoia and probably Ms. Julia Wilson’s newfound sense of paranoia as well… only it’s not paranoia if they are out for you and they did visit her so I suppose that means we’ll have to find another word for it. I bet you won’t find her musing for the proper words to describe it publicly… although she’s still free to do so… if that’s what she REALLY wants.

I eagerly await your reply with a parallel example of “expanding” rights that are useful and that one can act upon. Hopefully, thanks to the wonder of the internet I won’t have long to wait… unless I receive a visit from the men in dark glasses for this post… in which case I may never know how lucky you consider us all to be for living in the potential home of the brave and the land of the

]]> By: getaclue http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2007/06/01/nazi-enhanced-interrogation-techniques-are-the-same-ones-used-by-the-bush-administration/comment-page-5/#comment-931916 getaclue Tue, 25 Dec 2007 01:27:01 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=11732#comment-931916 Who says the U.S. isn't like nazi Germany? Oh, the uninformed... I guess.... well read this people The phrase “Verschärfte Vernehmung” is German for “enhanced interrogation”. It’s a phrase that appears to describe a form of torture that would leave no marks, and hence save the embarrassment pre-war Nazi officials were experiencing as their wounded torture victims ended up in court. The methods are indistinguishable from those described as “enhanced interrogation techniques” by the president. As you can see from the Gestapo memo (click on picture at the top of this post), moreover, the Nazis were adamant that their “enhanced interrogation techniques” would be carefully restricted and controlled, monitored by an elite professional staff, of the kind recommended by Charles Krauthammer, and strictly reserved for certain categories of prisoner. At least, that was the original plan. Who says the U.S. isn’t like nazi Germany?

Oh, the uninformed… I guess…. well read this people

The phrase “Verschärfte Vernehmung” is German for “enhanced interrogation”. It’s a phrase that appears to describe a form of torture that would leave no marks, and hence save the embarrassment pre-war Nazi officials were experiencing as their wounded torture victims ended up in court. The methods are indistinguishable from those described as “enhanced interrogation techniques” by the president. As you can see from the Gestapo memo (click on picture at the top of this post), moreover, the Nazis were adamant that their “enhanced interrogation techniques” would be carefully restricted and controlled, monitored by an elite professional staff, of the kind recommended by Charles Krauthammer, and strictly reserved for certain categories of prisoner. At least, that was the original plan.

]]> By: Jamal hendrix http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2007/06/01/nazi-enhanced-interrogation-techniques-are-the-same-ones-used-by-the-bush-administration/comment-page-5/#comment-897020 Jamal hendrix Fri, 30 Nov 2007 02:28:48 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=11732#comment-897020 just you have some sketchy facts and a tone of writing that says "i am politicly fair if you read enough of my propaganda" doesn't make you legitimate. show me some facts or something concrete to back up these accusations made against the bush administration and maybe I'l take you seriously. Besides if theres a high chance tht someone has useful information that sould save u.s. lives soldier, or civilian then go ahead and torture them. just you have some sketchy facts and a tone of writing that says “i am politicly fair if you read enough of my propaganda” doesn’t make you legitimate. show me some facts or something concrete to back up these accusations made against the bush administration and maybe I’l take you seriously. Besides if theres a high chance tht someone has useful information that sould save u.s. lives soldier, or civilian then go ahead and torture them.

]]> By: Kuhn http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2007/06/01/nazi-enhanced-interrogation-techniques-are-the-same-ones-used-by-the-bush-administration/comment-page-5/#comment-653921 Kuhn Sun, 03 Jun 2007 22:03:31 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=11732#comment-653921 "Eric, if the CIA has a secret prison, how do you know who’s in it? And how do you know why they are in the secret CIA run prison? And if you know all this stuff, just how “secret” is this prison? Just curious. As far as the no fly list being full of Bush protesters, I was unaware of that. If true, that doesn’t sound good to me." "A" secret prison? No offense man, but you obviously have been living under a rock. And I noticed you get your news from 30 second "bits", so I guess that is your TV. Which leads me to my following point and your main argument, freedom of speech. Now while you may think we still have freedom of speech, what good does it do when the media is controlled and serves only those in power? In nazi germany it weren't the "normal people" in the street who were silenced but those who opposed Hitler. And that's exactly what happens in the US. Fascist America in 10 steps: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html This corruption and control goes far beyond the US alone though, and we only need to listen to the right people to know what is going on. "We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries." - David Rockefeller to Trilateral Commission in 1991 “Eric, if the CIA has a secret prison, how do you know who’s in it? And how do you know why they are in the secret CIA run prison? And if you know all this stuff, just how “secret” is this prison? Just curious. As far as the no fly list being full of Bush protesters, I was unaware of that. If true, that doesn’t sound good to me.”

“A” secret prison? No offense man, but you obviously have been living under a rock. And I noticed you get your news from 30 second “bits”, so I guess that is your TV. Which leads me to my following point and your main argument, freedom of speech.
Now while you may think we still have freedom of speech, what good does it do when the media is controlled and serves only those in power? In nazi germany it weren’t the “normal people” in the street who were silenced but those who opposed Hitler. And that’s exactly what happens in the US.

Fascist America in 10 steps:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html

This corruption and control goes far beyond the US alone though, and we only need to listen to the right people to know what is going on.

“We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries.”
- David Rockefeller to Trilateral Commission in 1991

]]> By: BubbaRay http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2007/06/01/nazi-enhanced-interrogation-techniques-are-the-same-ones-used-by-the-bush-administration/comment-page-5/#comment-653448 BubbaRay Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:57:25 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=11732#comment-653448 #95, GW, <i>Godwin's law</i> granted, if you'll grant me Benford's law of controversy. #95, GW, Godwin’s law granted, if you’ll grant me Benford’s law of controversy.

]]> By: Mr. Fusion http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2007/06/01/nazi-enhanced-interrogation-techniques-are-the-same-ones-used-by-the-bush-administration/comment-page-5/#comment-652962 Mr. Fusion Sun, 03 Jun 2007 01:46:02 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=11732#comment-652962 #89, Tom You are still talking about opportunity, not rights. I can buy a 2007 car that get superior gas mileage, more comfort, and is more durable then a comparable 1994 model. My 2007 TV is bigger and gets more channels than the 1994 model. Heck, even my 2007 model wife is bigger then the 1994 model. But none of those technological achievements have increased our RIGHTS to be free from oppressive government. So I ask you again, WHAT EXPANDED RIGHTS HAVE HAPPENED IN THE PAST 13 YEARS? Oh, wait, WAIT <b>WAIT</b>, I have one, Don't Ask Don't Tell. Yup !!! That is a right that didn't exist before. #89, Tom

You are still talking about opportunity, not rights.

I can buy a 2007 car that get superior gas mileage, more comfort, and is more durable then a comparable 1994 model.
My 2007 TV is bigger and gets more channels than the 1994 model.
Heck, even my 2007 model wife is bigger then the 1994 model.

But none of those technological achievements have increased our RIGHTS to be free from oppressive government.

So I ask you again, WHAT EXPANDED RIGHTS HAVE HAPPENED IN THE PAST 13 YEARS? Oh, wait, WAIT WAIT, I have one, Don’t Ask Don’t Tell. Yup !!! That is a right that didn’t exist before.

]]> By: GW http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2007/06/01/nazi-enhanced-interrogation-techniques-are-the-same-ones-used-by-the-bush-administration/comment-page-5/#comment-652712 GW Sat, 02 Jun 2007 22:21:48 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=11732#comment-652712 Godwin's Law Godwin’s Law

]]> By: Will http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2007/06/01/nazi-enhanced-interrogation-techniques-are-the-same-ones-used-by-the-bush-administration/comment-page-5/#comment-652651 Will Sat, 02 Jun 2007 21:35:07 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=11732#comment-652651 @jacobak I'm glad to see someone gets the point. The US has been screwing with the middle east for decades. The Sep 11 bombings came as no surprise in this country. I live in New Zealand - I lived in Urbana-Champagne (Illinios) for a year, before the Sep 11 bombings. Even then, used as I was to a relatively functional and liberal country, the US was shocking to me. Everything, from the food in Wendy's to the news on TV was sanitized, watered-down junk. US citizens lived in blissful ignorance of their country's *own history*. Most of them weren't aware of the Vietnam War, of the Cold War, of sanctions against Cuba...nothing. I, my sister and various friends were dismissed as "liberal hippies" or "nutcases" when we mention non-extreme, well documented historical facts. That's right - US citizens regarded basic analysis of facts as "extreme". Basically everywhere I looked, the country was rotten. Meaningless news, brainless TV, terrible food, ingrained bigotry and racism, corrupt politics, abusive foreign-policy, merciless welfare system discriminatory laws, etc. And everyone there lived in a kind of daze - utterly failing to notice the slowly failing system around them, and engaged in a kind of perpetual game of "keep up with the neighbours". I am never going back. I'd probably be arrested for some arbitrary crime. @jacobak

I’m glad to see someone gets the point. The US has been screwing with the middle east for decades. The Sep 11 bombings came as no surprise in this country.

I live in New Zealand – I lived in Urbana-Champagne (Illinios) for a year, before the Sep 11 bombings. Even then, used as I was to a relatively functional and liberal country, the US was shocking to me. Everything, from the food in Wendy’s to the news on TV was sanitized, watered-down junk. US citizens lived in blissful ignorance of their country’s *own history*. Most of them weren’t aware of the Vietnam War, of the Cold War, of sanctions against Cuba…nothing.

I, my sister and various friends were dismissed as “liberal hippies” or “nutcases” when we mention non-extreme, well documented historical facts. That’s right – US citizens regarded basic analysis of facts as “extreme”.

Basically everywhere I looked, the country was rotten. Meaningless news, brainless TV, terrible food, ingrained bigotry and racism, corrupt politics, abusive foreign-policy, merciless welfare system discriminatory laws, etc. And everyone there lived in a kind of daze – utterly failing to notice the slowly failing system around them, and engaged in a kind of perpetual game of “keep up with the neighbours”.

I am never going back. I’d probably be arrested for some arbitrary crime.

]]> By: srqrebel http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2007/06/01/nazi-enhanced-interrogation-techniques-are-the-same-ones-used-by-the-bush-administration/comment-page-5/#comment-652615 srqrebel Sat, 02 Jun 2007 20:54:51 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=11732#comment-652615 #88, Eric: Those are quite chilling assertions that you made... could you please provide the source(s) of that information? #88, Eric:

Those are quite chilling assertions that you made… could you please provide the source(s) of that information?

]]> By: PK http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2007/06/01/nazi-enhanced-interrogation-techniques-are-the-same-ones-used-by-the-bush-administration/comment-page-5/#comment-652454 PK Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:02:46 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=11732#comment-652454 I think your all a bunch of tin foil hat wearing nut jobs. Keep up the good work. With out people like you the rest of us would have no one to laugh at. I think your all a bunch of tin foil hat wearing nut jobs. Keep up the good work. With out people like you the rest of us would have no one to laugh at.

]]> By: Tom http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2007/06/01/nazi-enhanced-interrogation-techniques-are-the-same-ones-used-by-the-bush-administration/comment-page-5/#comment-652421 Tom Sat, 02 Jun 2007 17:14:35 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=11732#comment-652421 Eric, if the CIA has a secret prison, how do you know who's in it? And how do you know why they are in the secret CIA run prison? And if you know all this stuff, just how "secret" is this prison? Just curious. As far as the no fly list being full of Bush protesters, I was unaware of that. If true, that doesn't sound good to me. Eric, if the CIA has a secret prison, how do you know who’s in it? And how do you know why they are in the secret CIA run prison? And if you know all this stuff, just how “secret” is this prison? Just curious. As far as the no fly list being full of Bush protesters, I was unaware of that. If true, that doesn’t sound good to me.

]]> By: Another Tom http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2007/06/01/nazi-enhanced-interrogation-techniques-are-the-same-ones-used-by-the-bush-administration/comment-page-5/#comment-652417 Another Tom Sat, 02 Jun 2007 17:05:20 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=11732#comment-652417 Aside from the obvious posts full of empty sentiments that are not researched or thought about at all, this is a refreshing thing to read. I am slightly happier to see that there are still people in America who realize that "freedom of speech" isn't just "freedom to rationalize all of my fears without justifying them" but can be used to actually increase one's knowledge and hence form one's own opinions. Kudos, and remember: the rest of the world is watching. Aside from the obvious posts full of empty sentiments that are not researched or thought about at all, this is a refreshing thing to read. I am slightly happier to see that there are still people in America who realize that “freedom of speech” isn’t just “freedom to rationalize all of my fears without justifying them” but can be used to actually increase one’s knowledge and hence form one’s own opinions. Kudos, and remember: the rest of the world is watching.

]]> By: Tom http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2007/06/01/nazi-enhanced-interrogation-techniques-are-the-same-ones-used-by-the-bush-administration/comment-page-5/#comment-652415 Tom Sat, 02 Jun 2007 17:03:13 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=11732#comment-652415 Mr. Fusion, thanks for taking the time to look deeper into this long thread and to take my argument seriously. You asked me and I told you, if you don't agree, fine. But please don't tell me to "put up or shut up" when we are both using our freedom of speech, it makes you look - hypocritical. I have taken time to respond to nearly every comment, of course I will respond again. Yes, you could have been a pamphleteer back in Jefferson's time, or could have opened a newspaper 40 years ago. But my point is since 1994 the internet and other technology have given you greater opportunity. And people are using the opportunity more, not less. Dissenting voices have more listener ship, not less. Just look at the popularity of Michael Moore, even Dvorak. Yes in 1994 these guys had a voice, but nothing like they do today and I would argue technology has a lot to do with it. This entire discussion would never had been possible in 1994. We might have read this article in the paper. I would have responded with a letter the following week. You would have responded the week after that and no one would know what we were talking about (not that they do now.) If you want to say, well that has nothing to do with rights in the constitution, fine. The effect is more freedom, more dissent, more opportunity, less negative repercussion for dissenters... and more bellyachers! Mr. Fusion, thanks for taking the time to look deeper into this long thread and to take my argument seriously. You asked me and I told you, if you don’t agree, fine. But please don’t tell me to “put up or shut up” when we are both using our freedom of speech, it makes you look – hypocritical. I have taken time to respond to nearly every comment, of course I will respond again. Yes, you could have been a pamphleteer back in Jefferson’s time, or could have opened a newspaper 40 years ago. But my point is since 1994 the internet and other technology have given you greater opportunity. And people are using the opportunity more, not less. Dissenting voices have more listener ship, not less. Just look at the popularity of Michael Moore, even Dvorak. Yes in 1994 these guys had a voice, but nothing like they do today and I would argue technology has a lot to do with it. This entire discussion would never had been possible in 1994. We might have read this article in the paper. I would have responded with a letter the following week. You would have responded the week after that and no one would know what we were talking about (not that they do now.)
If you want to say, well that has nothing to do with rights in the constitution, fine. The effect is more freedom, more dissent, more opportunity, less negative repercussion for dissenters… and more bellyachers!

]]> By: Eric http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2007/06/01/nazi-enhanced-interrogation-techniques-are-the-same-ones-used-by-the-bush-administration/comment-page-5/#comment-652379 Eric Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:37:33 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=11732#comment-652379 To #11 - Tom. - Freedom of speech? Freedom to associate freely and travel? Are you aware that there are people in our secret CIA prisons for being friends and family members of suspects? or that if you show up at a Bush public appearance with an anti-Bush sign you will be put on the no-fly list ? Eric To #11 – Tom.

- Freedom of speech? Freedom to associate freely and travel?

Are you aware that there are people in our secret CIA prisons for being friends and family members of suspects? or that if you show up at a Bush public appearance with an anti-Bush sign you will be put on the no-fly list ?

Eric

]]> By: Tom http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2007/06/01/nazi-enhanced-interrogation-techniques-are-the-same-ones-used-by-the-bush-administration/comment-page-5/#comment-652366 Tom Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:19:08 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=11732#comment-652366 To Jacobak, that sounds like a horrible experience. Mark, in an earlier post said something similar. If people are being detained, searched without cause unnecessarily or otherwise intimidated at the US border, then that is wrong and a loss of freedom. Now I like to play tennis and often bring my tennis bag with me when I travel. And the bag looks like a odd shaped knapsack that I wear it on my back. If I am on a short trip I put all my stuff in the bag and bring the bag on board. After 9/11 I was pulled aside, singled out and given the wand treatment every time I flew with the tennis bag. I always assumed it was because the bag made me look suspicious, or maybe I had bad luck. I never thought my rights were being taken away and actually I was glad to cooperate. But this is much less severe situation than you and Mark are describing. To Jacobak, that sounds like a horrible experience. Mark, in an earlier post said something similar. If people are being detained, searched without cause unnecessarily or otherwise intimidated at the US border, then that is wrong and a loss of freedom.
Now I like to play tennis and often bring my tennis bag with me when I travel. And the bag looks like a odd shaped knapsack that I wear it on my back. If I am on a short trip I put all my stuff in the bag and bring the bag on board. After 9/11 I was pulled aside, singled out and given the wand treatment every time I flew with the tennis bag. I always assumed it was because the bag made me look suspicious, or maybe I had bad luck. I never thought my rights were being taken away and actually I was glad to cooperate. But this is much less severe situation than you and Mark are describing.

]]>