By SN
Monday April 28, 2008
New York Times – April 24, 2008:
It was not long after a Methodist church put down roots here that the troubles began.
First came visits from agents of the F.S.B., a successor to the K.G.B., who evidently saw a threat in a few dozen searching souls who liked to huddle in cramped apartments to read the Bible and, perhaps, drink a little tea. Local officials then labeled the church a “sect.” Finally, last month, they shut it down.
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There was a time after the fall of Communism when small Protestant congregations blossomed here in southwestern Russia, when a church was almost as easy to set up as a general store. Today, this industrial region has become emblematic of the suppression of religious freedom under President Vladimir V. Putin.
Just as the government has tightened control over political life, so, too, has it intruded in matters of faith. The Kremlin’s surrogates in many areas have turned the Russian Orthodox Church into a de facto official religion, warding off other Christian denominations that seem to offer the most significant competition for worshipers. They have all but banned proselytizing by Protestants and discouraged Protestant worship through a variety of harassing measures, according to dozens of interviews with government officials and religious leaders across Russia.
This close alliance between the government and the Russian Orthodox Church has become a defining characteristic of Mr. Putin’s tenure, a mutually reinforcing choreography that is usually described here as working “in symphony.”
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Here is the point where one needs to understand other cultures deeper than “they don’t do things like us”… Orthodox communities in general arose from the Church-State of the Byzantine Empire. Most predominantly Orthodox countries followed this model (where the head of state is at the same time head of the Church) until relatively recent history, with Russia entering 20th century in such order. In those states, while some tolerance have been offered for long established “rivals” (Islam, Catholic Church,…) any “new fangled” religion is considered a cult (same as many in USA would see Branch Davidians for example). To make things worse, because of the church-state link these “cults” are automatically seen as an assault on the state itself… There is no need for FGB/KGB to enforce such mindset. In absence of education old ways would yield the same intolerance from the local communities.
#21 – dusan maletic,
Interesting points. One thing though, from doing some research for a post on my blog, I found the following subset of definitions, which may be relevant here.
So, from these it appears that all religions are cults but not all cults are religions. In fact, from these definitions, in my opinion, religion is worse than cult.
>>In fact, from these definitions, in my
>>opinion, religion is worse than cult.
Aw, Scottie. You’re so intolerant. Sure, some religions are worse than cults. You should try out my church, though. Peace, love, and understanding; that’s what we practice and preach.
#23 – Mr. Mustard,
I’m merely pointing out that a cult may not be delusional. It may be just the cult of being selfish, i.e. Objectivism.
In fact, definition 4 of a cult states, “a group or sect bound together by devotion to or veneration of the same thing, person, or ideal.”
This could be people devoted to evolution or Albert Einstein. It may just be a fan club. It doesn’t have to be something as
despicabledelusionalirrational as religion.BTW, your proselytizing of your church does nothing to convince me I’d like it any better than any other.
>>BTW, your proselytizing of your church does
>>nothing to convince me I’d like it any
>>better than any other.
Makes no nevermind to me, Scottie. I’m not trying to push my church on you. I’m merely suggesting that you might find some respite from your anger and bitterness (hey, I know you live in NYC, so I understand it) by attending a church of your choosing.
If not, fine. Just call off the attack dogs that want to rip me limb from limb for being a believer. Although I believe in God and Heaven, I don’t want to end up there by being savaged by adherents to the Church of No God. Gosh!
#25 – MM,
Bullshit in the extreme! It’s called the soft sell and you’ve tried it on me repeatedly. You most certainly do care if I find religion. I have no idea why. It may even be from the best of intentions. But, please stop it. And, until you do, don’t call me intolerant.
Scottie, I couldn’t give a flying fuck whether you find religion or not. And if you think otherwise, you’re suffering from pathological narcissism. I care less about whether you find religion than I care about whether you find a good job in a liveable city. And THAT’S saying something. If you want to live int the Armpit of America, go for it. And if you choose to buuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrnnnnnn in a laaaaaaaaaaaake of fiiiiiiiiiiire, go for that too.
I’m just trying to look out for your best interests. If you reject that, it’s no skin off my nose.
Shubee (#19),
First off I am not a Seventh Day Adventist, but EVERY church, political group, cult (per Misanthropic Scott’s reference above, and Scott you will like they preach separation of church and state..), etc. has differing groups within. Your link is to one man who clearly was more conservative than the church he was attending. Too bad for him, and maybe he should have found a church he liked instead of the approach he took. And wow, paint an entire church based on one experience of one man. That’s like saying that I knew a Democrat who was said something cruel to another Democrat, therefore all Democrats are crap and should rot. You Shubee, are a moran.
My experience with Seventh Day Adventists has been almost entirely positive. It might do you well to actually learn about them. http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/statements/index.html
Oh and btw, Scottie: You’re intolerant. I guess that comes with living in the Armpit of America, eh?
Adding to my post above. The Seventh Day Adventists also have one of the best relief organizations in the world – http://www.adra.org – and they actual help people without proselytizing. Oh, and it isn’t my opinion about them, here is their independent rating – http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=8078
#27 – MM,
Good. Then stop suggesting that I can get anything other than delusions from your religion. Thanks.
And, I don’t live in the armpit. I live next door to it. NJ is the known as the Armpit of the Nation or the Garbage State.
#29 – MM,
Pot meet kettle. You’re exactly as intolerant as I am, no more, no less.
All these limp negative articles about religion.
Suggestion: Post articles about some real real religious nut-cases like Jeremiah Wright.
Dana Milbank from the Washington Post said:
The Rev. Jeremiah Wright, explaining this morning why he had waited so long before breaking his silence about his incendiary sermons, offered a paraphrase from Proverbs: “It is better to be quiet and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.”
Barack Obama’s pastor would have been wise to continue to heed that wisdom.
It just keeps getting better and better.
Joe Kline from Time Magazine just released the following statement:
Wright’s purpose now seems quite clear: to aggrandize himself–the guy is going to be a go-to mainstream media source for racial extremist spew, the next iteration of Al Sharpton–and destroy Barack Obama.
Great article.
All this hoopla about Jeremiah Wright. Who in the hell cares about this guy? He never existed until 2 months ago.
Learning about the loony fringe few is the not the problem. It’s the massive religious institutions that need be dealt with.
What’s all this hoopla about Jeremiah Wright?
Oh, I don’t know.
Could it possibly be that it could be a reflection on the judgment skills of the potential next President of the USA?
# 28, 30. Oftentimes, what cults say about themselves in public is different than the real world within. If you believe that you have a real insider’s view of the Seventh-day Adventist corporation, try to refute The Seven Faces of Seventh-day Adventism.
Shubee,
I am not a Seventh Day Adventist and therefore have no interest in refuting your website and your problems with the church.
All in all, this believer would hate the idea of any ‘Government Church’ be it the Russian Orthodox, or the Church of England.
That a candidate has faith, I would expect it to influence them. Thats a given, they’re an individual.
But the hunting down of churches by a governement. I don’t like. “With malice towards none, and charity to all”, like Abraham Lincoln, should be the standard of the day.
#32–jbenson==he made those comments and expressly said “so I waited for the media to keep talking and show itself to be foolish until they attacked (what amounts to his theology).
Then he was asked if muslims go to heaven and he said “other sheep have I who are not of this fold”. I googled this out of interest and the pro-god sites that are usually objective don’t really cover what this means.
I just assume that as in 99.9% of issues, you can find language on both sides in the bible. Almost like it was written by Hillary.
# 36 Thank you ethanol for admitting that your understanding of the Seventh-day Adventist church’s oppressive nature is at best superficial and irrelevant.
That they’ve selected a religion that will hew to the company line doesn’t change the fact that this is another example of totalitarians shutting down religion. Liberals in this country do the same thing when they say ‘I love religious people when they do A,B,C but hate the ones that do X,Y,Z