TAMPA — Next year, a giant Confederate flag may tower above the tree line near the junction of Interstate 75 and Interstate 4. The Sons of Confederate Veterans wants drivers in the Tampa area to see the massive flag — 30 feet high and 50 feet long — atop a 139-foot pole, the highest the Federal Aviation Authority would allow. It would be lit at night. With the pole already in the ground and building permits in hand, the group is on its way to having what it calls the “world’s largest” Confederate flag in place by mid 2009. The group just needs about $30,000 more, said Douglas Dawson, a division commander. Several nearby business owners don’t mind. It’s history, they say, and it’s on private property.
The county has wrestled with sensitive Confederate issues in the past. In 1994, the Confederate flag was removed from the county seal. Last year, county commissioners recognized Confederate commander Robert E. Lee on the same day they honored a black civic leader. Commissioners later apologized and haven’t since recognized Lee. Flags Across Florida started about eight years ago, after the Confederate flag was removed from the Capitol in Tallahassee. So far the group has two major flags erected: one in Suwannee County along Interstate 75 and one in Havana along U.S. 27.
Adams insists the flag isn’t about racism or slavery. “It’s about honoring our ancestors and about celebrating our heritage,” he said. “It’s a historical thing to us.”
Damn, where’s the Homeowners Association when you need them?
Amathaon–you continue to seduce. So wrong, yet seemingly so reasonable
Ties in quite directly to your question of me (which I find interesting out of your context): “What do I want you to do?”
In your context: Its important, or would have been, to have fit your results into statistically valid interpretations. How many people of what race, sex, age, education need to say raising the flag is bad before you should seriously consider not being part of a group that does so? One stranger saying so (such as myself) is not statistically valid, but what if that person was your own grandfather? What if “everyone” said it was wrong? What if 10% said so? Sadly, and parallel to an understanding of history, “facts” still need to be interpreted and fit into frameworks of values.
From my viewpoint, what do I want? I said earlier simply to introduce you to the fact other people do disagree with your position. On some level, emotionally, like everyone else, I suppose I also want everyone to agree with me? Intellect battling with emotions. Teaching myself thru repetition to accept in others what I can’t change.
When you are part of a group that raises a Confederate Flag, yes, you are saying “to some degree” that varies from person to person that slavery wasn’t that bad. Now, you can disagree with that reasoning, but it is the reasoning that people have who do happen to find flying the CW flag repugnant. You can disagree and ignore them, but you shouldn’t further pretend they/we/I don’t exist. Its just different values being expressed in a multi-cultural society. Its not being politically correct. You want to honor your heritage/ancestors/flag and so do the great grandchildren of slaves. Its not PC for them to be revolted by that which represents the bondage they were once held in.
Do you understand what “linkage” means? A causes B which is good but B causes C which is bad. You can’t have B without C. A is pride. B is the Old South and its CW Flag. C is Slavery. In my case, the negative value of C exceeds B, so no flag for me. YOU devalue C, and so B is unfurled and displayed. You tend to state C is bad, but not so bad you aren’t desirous of flying the flag.
I note you conflate pride in your ancestors with the CW Flag, the secession, liberty, your heritage, etc. They are all separate things, related, interacting, but still each separate. Each element needs to be considered and not treated as synonyms for one another.
You said at #113: “There were no answers that pointed to the “Uncle Toms Cabin” mentality where the slave owners sat on the porch drinking lemonade while the slaves were in the field being worked to death.” /// Yet you did or can google that such things certainly did happen. You don’t own 20 to 50 or more slaves and go out in the fields to get your lace dirty.
At #109 you say: “how you believe the propaganda of the evil slave owner and how he worked his slaves to the point of death then whipped them and made them work more. (Which I know beyond a shadow of doubt was not the way it was) /// Yet you did or can google that such things certainly did happen.
“Values or Ignorance?” I hope its ignorance. That can be cured by reading, doing surveys, googling, talking to people of opposite opinion.
Bobbo, I can see in my quotes that you present how you would interpret them as me saying that abuse never happened. Please know that wasn’t my intent. I assumed that you were saying that this treatment was the standard. I apologize for the misunderstanding. I am aware that abuse did happen, and I am also aware of the “Disneyesque” idea also happened. Neither was the standard, but I believe the standard for the majority of the slave population was somewhere in the middle. I myself am of the opinion that there was a worse atrocity then abuse. That is just slavery itself. I would imagine if I were a slave even under the best “Disneyesque” conditions. I would make an attempt to run away. Just the fact that my life is not my own and would be at the mercy of someone else would be all the motivation I would need to seek freedom.
The only problem I can see with “Linkage” is A causes B, B causes C, even if C is acceptable then what about D, then E and so on? Eventually something will offend, and if this dictates what you should or shouldn’t do, then like I said before, everyone would be the same. Then so much for the diversity we have that makes us so unique.
I am aware others disagree with me, I wasn’t aware of the extent until this conversation. I am learning a lot. I am also aware that we will never agree on this topic. I also, like you, would like for everyone to agree with me. But, the reality is that everyone will never agree with everything. I guess in a way that’s a good thing. Just because we don’t see eye to eye is no reason to be “enemies”, personally I don’t like having “enemies.” I’m not the “enemy” type. Sort of like the CWRT. People get together with different views and talk about them civilly. Then, afterwards go to Shoney’s, or whatever.
I guess what I am saying is, we just have different opinions, and that’s okay.
I don’t think the survey will change either one of our minds. It will just make us aware of what the general public thinks, and maybe our opinions don’t fit into that as much as we might think they do.
I am going out of state this weekend so I might not get much done on the survey. If I can, I will try to squeeze in a few more interviews. I’ll let you know how it goes.
With much respect, Amathaon
Amathaon==there you go again. Being (almost) totally reasonable.
Sometimes when we are put on a point, we see the error of our ways, but when the situation is more fuzzy, the old comfortable ways of thinking return. Its hard to be “the best person you can be.” Much easier to lazily be the person you have become.
Very subtle. I was about to “go off” on the most relevant fact of the status of being a slave period==but you beat me to it. Well Done. You just need to incorporate that morality a bit more as you review your posting points once again.
There is a huge difference in having an “attitude”/belief versus raising a flag to it. While I’m not proud of anything except my own personal accomplishments, I can “see” being proud (in some way) about things I had nothing to do with, but I can’t see standing around raising flags to it. But such ceremony, as opposed to the underlying appreciations in life, introduce many other different issues.
Live and learn. For grins, I’ll keep this booknote for awhile in case either of us, or someone else, can identify a new take on the issue?
How we form our values, grow and change, become better people over time, is just about the most productive thing we can spend out spare time thinking about.
Ok, rational mode off. Time to return to flaming troll.
Having grown listening to the lies of the united states about the CSA, we are still here and we are not going away because some racists want to destroy our heritage. We will fight harder against racists like you.
“Lady”===yes quite a few lies. Both Lincoln and Grant (as was General Lee) were uniquely admirable in thinking their enemies where not eternal and that the peace should be honorable and not seek retribution as was/is the norm in history.
Too bad Lee’s children let him down.
This is the only country in the world where a defeated government can still fly its flag. Speaks well for our freedom of speech, but not much about our acceptance of reality and understanding of history.
The Confederates fought for states rights – the right to keep slaves. Period. Any other issue between the states could have been settled without a war. Even after the war, the south continued to be a bunch of murderous shitheels.
http://withoutsanctuary.org/main.html
Nearly 5,000 people, mostly black males, are documented as having been lynched between 1880 and 1960.
So there may be some minor historical value to the confederate flag, it has as much value in this society as their money. IMNSHO, confederate apologists and those who pine for those days are full of shit.
You northern mother fuckers are dumber than shit. Incase yall didnt know good ‘ole Abraham Lincoln owned his own damn slaves. The Leader of the Union. If the leader of the previous Utopian society owned slaves then I highly doubt the Civil War was because of slavery. The slaves were treated much better in the south than they were in the north. But again there were slaves there too. And the industrialized north needed the slaves. The slaves / plantations provided the north with their cotton and other materials needed to manufacture shit.But now we have a nigger president so the white people have to pick the cotton. Great job northern bitches.
127,
and YOU DONT LIKE good hard work?? AND PAY of NOTHING??
@Jack Flanders (comment#4)
Your threats against American citizens are proof, with no doubt, that YOU a terrorist. And, as more proof, you are too much a pussy to leave an e-mail address. No worries. Your terroristic threats against the people of my country will be posted alongside your physical address and phone number. America has had enough of your self-hatred and you will no longer be tolerated!
This is the very best country in the world. But!!….the confederacy had the vision of what a country of newly formed Republicans ( started by Lincoln) would bring and it’s here. Commercialism,Commerce,Industrialism,Big Banks. You say whats wrong with that ?, let me explain….Greed,world dependance,Illegal Immegration,over Immegration,Disloyalty,dishonor,laws of other lands incorperated into our laws,Masked people getting drivers licenses,Children ruling the household,being abl;e to stay on your parents insurance policy until you’re 27…….and finally ,the only end result….anarcy. We should’ve listened to the Confederacy. PS, they weren’t out to invade the North. Stonewall said ” while we would never send our soldiers to invade anothers land ,so we will never allow others to invade our country.
ur fokn rasist son of a!!!! bitches!!!!!!!!!!!
Alright people I’m tired of hearing all this bitching about the Rebel Flag being a sign of slavery and shit like that. I’m hear to say that the youth of the South wear Rebel Flags because it REPRESENTS THE SOUTH!!! Nothing more nothing less so just get over your own selfish bull shit racist viewing ways and catch up with the rest of the fucking world. This is one thing that pisses me off is when people talk bad about stuff they don’t know a damn thing about and its happening alot now days.
Natefrog , you are one of the most uneducated folks i have ever laughed at. You butcher the English language while claiming to know history, it’s just incredible. Libtards like you are the useful idiots of today