The Confederates fought for states rights – the right to keep slaves. Period. Any other issue between the states could have been settled without a war. Even after the war, the south continued to be a bunch of murderous shitheels.

http://withoutsanctuary.org/main.html

Nearly 5,000 people, mostly black males, are documented as having been lynched between 1880 and 1960.

So there may be some minor historical value to the confederate flag, it has as much value in this society as their money. IMNSHO, confederate apologists and those who pine for those days are full of shit.

Too bad Lee’s children let him down.

Sometimes when we are put on a point, we see the error of our ways, but when the situation is more fuzzy, the old comfortable ways of thinking return. Its hard to be “the best person you can be.” Much easier to lazily be the person you have become.

Very subtle. I was about to “go off” on the most relevant fact of the status of being a slave period==but you beat me to it. Well Done. You just need to incorporate that morality a bit more as you review your posting points once again.

There is a huge difference in having an “attitude”/belief versus raising a flag to it. While I’m not proud of anything except my own personal accomplishments, I can “see” being proud (in some way) about things I had nothing to do with, but I can’t see standing around raising flags to it. But such ceremony, as opposed to the underlying appreciations in life, introduce many other different issues.

Live and learn. For grins, I’ll keep this booknote for awhile in case either of us, or someone else, can identify a new take on the issue?

How we form our values, grow and change, become better people over time, is just about the most productive thing we can spend out spare time thinking about.

Ok, rational mode off. Time to return to flaming troll.

The only problem I can see with “Linkage” is A causes B, B causes C, even if C is acceptable then what about D, then E and so on? Eventually something will offend, and if this dictates what you should or shouldn’t do, then like I said before, everyone would be the same. Then so much for the diversity we have that makes us so unique.

I am aware others disagree with me, I wasn’t aware of the extent until this conversation. I am learning a lot. I am also aware that we will never agree on this topic. I also, like you, would like for everyone to agree with me. But, the reality is that everyone will never agree with everything. I guess in a way that’s a good thing. Just because we don’t see eye to eye is no reason to be “enemies”, personally I don’t like having “enemies.” I’m not the “enemy” type. Sort of like the CWRT. People get together with different views and talk about them civilly. Then, afterwards go to Shoney’s, or whatever.
I guess what I am saying is, we just have different opinions, and that’s okay.
I don’t think the survey will change either one of our minds. It will just make us aware of what the general public thinks, and maybe our opinions don’t fit into that as much as we might think they do.

I am going out of state this weekend so I might not get much done on the survey. If I can, I will try to squeeze in a few more interviews. I’ll let you know how it goes.

With much respect, Amathaon

Ties in quite directly to your question of me (which I find interesting out of your context): “What do I want you to do?”

In your context: Its important, or would have been, to have fit your results into statistically valid interpretations. How many people of what race, sex, age, education need to say raising the flag is bad before you should seriously consider not being part of a group that does so? One stranger saying so (such as myself) is not statistically valid, but what if that person was your own grandfather? What if “everyone” said it was wrong? What if 10% said so? Sadly, and parallel to an understanding of history, “facts” still need to be interpreted and fit into frameworks of values.

From my viewpoint, what do I want? I said earlier simply to introduce you to the fact other people do disagree with your position. On some level, emotionally, like everyone else, I suppose I also want everyone to agree with me? Intellect battling with emotions. Teaching myself thru repetition to accept in others what I can’t change.

When you are part of a group that raises a Confederate Flag, yes, you are saying “to some degree” that varies from person to person that slavery wasn’t that bad. Now, you can disagree with that reasoning, but it is the reasoning that people have who do happen to find flying the CW flag repugnant. You can disagree and ignore them, but you shouldn’t further pretend they/we/I don’t exist. Its just different values being expressed in a multi-cultural society. Its not being politically correct. You want to honor your heritage/ancestors/flag and so do the great grandchildren of slaves. Its not PC for them to be revolted by that which represents the bondage they were once held in.

Do you understand what “linkage” means? A causes B which is good but B causes C which is bad. You can’t have B without C. A is pride. B is the Old South and its CW Flag. C is Slavery. In my case, the negative value of C exceeds B, so no flag for me. YOU devalue C, and so B is unfurled and displayed. You tend to state C is bad, but not so bad you aren’t desirous of flying the flag.

I note you conflate pride in your ancestors with the CW Flag, the secession, liberty, your heritage, etc. They are all separate things, related, interacting, but still each separate. Each element needs to be considered and not treated as synonyms for one another.

You said at #113: “There were no answers that pointed to the “Uncle Toms Cabin” mentality where the slave owners sat on the porch drinking lemonade while the slaves were in the field being worked to death.” /// Yet you did or can google that such things certainly did happen. You don’t own 20 to 50 or more slaves and go out in the fields to get your lace dirty.

At #109 you say: “how you believe the propaganda of the evil slave owner and how he worked his slaves to the point of death then whipped them and made them work more. (Which I know beyond a shadow of doubt was not the way it was) /// Yet you did or can google that such things certainly did happen.

“Values or Ignorance?” I hope its ignorance. That can be cured by reading, doing surveys, googling, talking to people of opposite opinion.

I never said “slavery wasn’t that bad” those are the words you used. In fact if you look I said the exact opposite. “Freedom for everyone” (I think that’s about the 10th time I said that.) I am not interested in honoring slavery, but I am interested in honoring my ancestors. Has nothing at all to do with slavery. I think the most intelligent comment that relates to this issue posted so far on this message board (you and myself included) is “Northern Response” on 10-08 and all he did was to fly by and post. He doesn’t sound like he is pro confederate but he hit the nail directly on the head.

I googled “treatment of slaves on plantations” and “slave master relationships”, “relationships between master and slaves” etc. I found sites where they say it was horrible, no food, no health care ect…and I found sites that say things were great, plenty of food, good hours, good health care, and everyone was happy ect… also I looked for what percentage of households owned slaves and found numbers like 5%, 10%, 25%, and 33%. If you want me to I can find this out for sure. I could go back to the archives and keep count on the question “did you or your parents own slaves?” I know that it wasn’t many. (Probably wouldn’t be this weekend, but next.)
“On a typical plantation (more than 20 slaves) the capital value of the slaves was greater than the capital value of the land and implements.” I don’t know if the numbers are right but I don’t see any thing to dispute here. (If this value is true do you really think someone would cut the slave’s hamstrings? Really?)
“Understanding slave schedules is made easier when the researcher makes note of the number of slaves owned by an individual. Streets states that millions of slaves lived either as the sole Black inhabitant or in a small unit on small farms scattered throughout the slave states. [2] Genovese asserts that only half of the slaves in the South lived on “plantations” with twenty slaves and only one-fourth of the slaves lived on large plantations with fifty slaves [3].” Again I am not sure on the numbers but I don’t see anything to dispute.
And I have heard testimonies from the slaves themselves. There were cameras in the 30’s, 40’s, and 50’s. It wasn’t that long ago. I’m not even sure why I bothered with this paragraph as I have already said I’m not interested in honoring slavery, but rather my ancestors. And as far as what my ancestors were fighting for. It really wasn’t an issue.
I am glad to report that this time your links opened.

My heritage is my children’s heritage also. Yes it is looking back, but also ahead. I don’t expect you to understand this.

Until next time, Amathaon

Slippery slope indeed to cast a person as the opinions they hold, or the activities they engage in. You think “I” am hateful because I say that YOU are engaged in honoring a tradition that is entwined with SLAVERY that is an ABHORENT institution. YOU say slavery wasn’t that bad because the typical sourthern slave owner worked just as hard as the slave he owned? That’s not even sophistry, that’s just plain stupid. You have been brainwashed. And I mean brainwashed in the most complimentary way possible. Otherwise you would just be mean, evil, and twisted.—Like David Duke.

I do wonder what came first, your Disneyesque vision of plantation life ((No—the slaves were happy picking cotton and singing)) or your pride in Southern Heritage that somehow finds a need to lessen the terrible reality that underpinned the entire Southern experience?

Just google (treatment of slaves on plantations) and keep that pure heart of yours open.

On some loose threads, looks like “factually” you are wrong about the typical master/slave ratios:

Number of Slaves:
http://members.aol.com/Jfepperson/stat.html
On a typical plantation (more than 20 slaves) the capital value of the slaves was greater than the capital value of the land and implements.

http://www.aagsnc.org/columns/oct99gems.htm
Understanding slave schedules is made easier when the researcher makes note of the number of slaves owned by an individual. Streets states that millions of slaves lived either as the sole Black inhabitant or in a small unit on small farms scattered throughout the slave states.[2] Genovese asserts that only half of the slaves in the South lived on “plantations” with twenty slaves and only one-fourth of the slaves lived on large plantations with fifty slaves.[3]

When people deny the Holocaust of 68 years ago when eyewitness testimony is still available, I guess it is unavoidable the CW will get its own whitewash as well.

As far as taking back what is rightfully yours- – - thats backwards looking. Your kiddies future is in the opposite direction.