Comments on: Thinking Differently about Electrical Distribution and Power Storage http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2008/07/25/thinking-differently-about-electrical-distribution-and-power-storage/ General interest observations and true web-log. Mon, 13 Feb 2012 05:43:37 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Electric cars http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2008/07/25/thinking-differently-about-electrical-distribution-and-power-storage/comment-page-4/#comment-1469545 Electric cars Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:47:06 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=19301#comment-1469545 It such a nice guide line on electric distribution and power storage. It such a nice guide line on electric distribution and power storage.

]]> By: Meridian Electric http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2008/07/25/thinking-differently-about-electrical-distribution-and-power-storage/comment-page-4/#comment-1331434 Meridian Electric Tue, 09 Sep 2008 08:16:10 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=19301#comment-1331434 Meridian Electric is an international electrical, lighting, industrial supplies and spare parts distributor. We have access to many electrical and lighting products include GE Lamps, Electrical Distributor, GE Authorized Distributor, Hubbell Killark, and GE Lighting Fixtures. Meridian Electric is an international electrical, lighting, industrial supplies and spare parts distributor. We have access to many electrical and lighting products include GE Lamps, Electrical Distributor, GE Authorized Distributor, Hubbell Killark, and GE Lighting Fixtures.

]]> By: Gordon Clark http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2008/07/25/thinking-differently-about-electrical-distribution-and-power-storage/comment-page-4/#comment-1278660 Gordon Clark Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:55:33 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=19301#comment-1278660 I recommend a look at this site: http://www.beaconpower.com/ Grid energy storage in the form of flywheels in vacuum containers with magnetic bearings is happening NOW. What these do is similar to the idea of using electric cars as 2-way power sources while charging. Utilities have to keep some generators spinning at low output to be able to adjust for sudden load or supply changes. Alternative sources such as wind need more of this leveling. Spinning reserves use fuel and are inefficient, running at low capacity. Also they take some time to respond. A huge load change can make an AC generator slow down or speed up so that the 60 Hz (50 in Europe) output shifts in frequency. A small shift makes the output buck the rest of the grid, so protective relays kick the generator off line. Small localized storage, like flywheels or car batteries, can quickly make up for these instantaneous load shifts, without burning fuel. This is worth money to the utility, and a reason that a computerized 2-way power controller in the car chargers would be ideal, as it could ensure full charging overnight while minimizing line voltage fluctuations. A built-in real-time metering system could allow for crediting the customer for providing the load leveling service. It is a win-win situation. High voltage direct current's main advantage is that it does not require synchronizing AC with the grid. This is good for tieing grids together, or sourcing wind and solar power. It has been done in Scandinavia for decades, and there are HVDC lines in my region (New England) that import power from Hydro Quebec. Certainly Al Gore's challenge is doable and should happen. There is no need for any more nukes. The waste is deadly for far longer than 999 years! Here's something else: http://www.lipower.org/newscenter/pr/2006/080206_cable.html A superconducting 138 kV transmission line in Long Island has been running for 2 years now. People, we have the technology. Not in ten years, or 40. NOW. Let's do it! I recommend a look at this site: http://www.beaconpower.com/ Grid energy storage in the form of flywheels in vacuum containers with magnetic bearings is happening NOW. What these do is similar to the idea of using electric cars as 2-way power sources while charging.
Utilities have to keep some generators spinning at low output to be able to adjust for sudden load or supply changes. Alternative sources such as wind need more of this leveling. Spinning reserves use fuel and are inefficient, running at low capacity. Also they take some time to respond. A huge load change can make an AC generator slow down or speed up so that the 60 Hz (50 in Europe) output shifts in frequency. A small shift makes the output buck the rest of the grid, so protective relays kick the generator off line.
Small localized storage, like flywheels or car batteries, can quickly make up for these instantaneous load shifts, without burning fuel. This is worth money to the utility, and a reason that a computerized 2-way power controller in the car chargers would be ideal, as it could ensure full charging overnight while minimizing line voltage fluctuations. A built-in real-time metering system could allow for crediting the customer for providing the load leveling service. It is a win-win situation.
High voltage direct current’s main advantage is that it does not require synchronizing AC with the grid. This is good for tieing grids together, or sourcing wind and solar power. It has been done in Scandinavia for decades, and there are HVDC lines in my region (New England) that import power from Hydro Quebec.
Certainly Al Gore’s challenge is doable and should happen. There is no need for any more nukes. The waste is deadly for far longer than 999 years!
Here’s something else: http://www.lipower.org/newscenter/pr/2006/080206_cable.html A superconducting 138 kV transmission line in Long Island has been running for 2 years now.
People, we have the technology. Not in ten years, or 40. NOW. Let’s do it!

]]> By: Darrel http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2008/07/25/thinking-differently-about-electrical-distribution-and-power-storage/comment-page-4/#comment-1272989 Darrel Wed, 30 Jul 2008 01:46:56 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=19301#comment-1272989 jescott418 said: "We talk about electrifying large trucks but they drive 600 plus miles a day at 80,000 lbs gross. How is it that a electric motor will pull that?" DAR This is not a problem. Trains are diesel electric. The diesel generates electricity to drive a really big electric motor. We also have a lot of experience with electric buses. Energy storage is the problem. A barrel of oil holds 5.8 million btu, a tremendous amount of energy and very dense. There will not be an easy replacement for transportation. Natural may be the best hope, short term but it's limited as well. Regarding nuke: about 90% of the energy is left in current nuke waste. We can use it in breeder plants but those are politically difficult because of the plutonium they create. Nothing is going to be "shot into the sun." Nepon, another knee jerk anti-Gore bot says: "[Gore] travels around in a most fuel inefficient , wasteful corporate jet going." When you have a full roster of important lectures in Europe it is best to fly. Boat is too slow and riding a bike is not an option. To counter the carbon created he pays money to offset his carbon usage, making him carbon neutral. If you don't understand what this means, look it up. D. jescott418 said:
“We talk about electrifying large trucks but they drive 600 plus miles a day at 80,000 lbs gross. How is it that a electric motor will pull that?”

DAR
This is not a problem. Trains are diesel electric. The diesel generates electricity to drive a really big electric motor. We also have a lot of experience with electric buses. Energy storage is the problem.
A barrel of oil holds 5.8 million btu, a tremendous amount of energy and very dense. There will not be an easy replacement for transportation. Natural may be the best hope, short term but it’s limited as well.
Regarding nuke: about 90% of the energy is left in current nuke waste. We can use it in breeder plants but those are politically difficult because of the plutonium they create. Nothing is going to be “shot into the sun.”

Nepon, another knee jerk anti-Gore bot says: “[Gore] travels around in a most fuel inefficient , wasteful corporate jet going.”

When you have a full roster of important lectures in Europe it is best to fly. Boat is too slow and riding a bike is not an option. To counter the carbon created he pays money to offset his carbon usage, making him carbon neutral. If you don’t understand what this means, look it up.

D.

]]> By: Glenn E. http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2008/07/25/thinking-differently-about-electrical-distribution-and-power-storage/comment-page-4/#comment-1267339 Glenn E. Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:26:45 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=19301#comment-1267339 I think the only non-polluting energy sources we can count on, will be Geothermal and Wave/Tidal. Everything else has too much seasonal variability to generate power at consistent levels, to pay for its upkeep. Earth's deep underground heat is constant. And ocean currents and tides are near constant in some places, off coastlines. Wind and Solar takes a lot of acreage to harvest, and is subject to the weather changes. Another possibility, related to Wind power, would harvesting the atmosphere's electrostatic potential. Take a bit of the punch out of both electrical storms and tornadoes. Unless electric charge is somehow key to rain droplet formation or dispersal. I think the only non-polluting energy sources we can count on, will be Geothermal and Wave/Tidal. Everything else has too much seasonal variability to generate power at consistent levels, to pay for its upkeep. Earth’s deep underground heat is constant. And ocean currents and tides are near constant in some places, off coastlines. Wind and Solar takes a lot of acreage to harvest, and is subject to the weather changes. Another possibility, related to Wind power, would harvesting the atmosphere’s electrostatic potential. Take a bit of the punch out of both electrical storms and tornadoes. Unless electric charge is somehow key to rain droplet formation or dispersal.

]]> By: Glenn E. http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2008/07/25/thinking-differently-about-electrical-distribution-and-power-storage/comment-page-4/#comment-1267323 Glenn E. Sun, 27 Jul 2008 10:56:59 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=19301#comment-1267323 BTW, I'm all for adding alternatives to the power grid. Just don't exclude the old standbys until they're truly scarce. An idea of mine was to build ocean current power generators off the coast of Brazil and Guiana, to tap some of the currents flowing from the equator toward the Gulf. The bonus might be taking some of the heat energy out of this current, that's responsible for fueling the Atlantic hurricanes. Maybe knock them down a category or two. I think the Caribbean system would be ideal for this. But I'm somebody will claim it'll screw up the weather. Yeah, for the better! Who needs all them damn hurricanes? BTW, I’m all for adding alternatives to the power grid. Just don’t exclude the old standbys until they’re truly scarce. An idea of mine was to build ocean current power generators off the coast of Brazil and Guiana, to tap some of the currents flowing from the equator toward the Gulf. The bonus might be taking some of the heat energy out of this current, that’s responsible for fueling the Atlantic hurricanes. Maybe knock them down a category or two. I think the Caribbean system would be ideal for this. But I’m somebody will claim it’ll screw up the weather. Yeah, for the better! Who needs all them damn hurricanes?

]]> By: Glenn E. http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2008/07/25/thinking-differently-about-electrical-distribution-and-power-storage/comment-page-4/#comment-1267311 Glenn E. Sun, 27 Jul 2008 10:45:21 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=19301#comment-1267311 Well the Supercapacitors sounded promising. But I wondered who controlled their use. It turns that that the patent is assigned to the Diamond Shamrock Corporation. I quote a google search. "Ultramar Diamond Shamrock Corporation (UDS), based in San Antonio, Texas, is the second largest independent oil refining and marketing company in the United States. So once again, a new energy technology is in the hands of Big Oil. Kiss it ever being used to power cars, GOODBYE! I think Al Gore doesn't just want us to stop using foreign oil, or even domestic oil. But also coal and oil shale from Canada. It's all part of his crusade against all carbon based energy commodities. Probably because, they're considerably cheaper than the alternatives, he hopes to profit from. Demonizing CO2 as something destroying the earth climate (which has not been proven), is just an excuse for keeping this country (and third world nations) from exploiting its own coal and oil reserves. Ultimately, he want it all Nuclear! Because that's the only source we know of that's consistant in power generation. And it's also great for escalating the arms race all over again. Because when we're lousy with nuclear byproducts. We're just going to have to do something useful with it. Like make more bombs. Well you can't make a nuclear bomb from a lump or coal, or barrel crude of oil. And neither produces waste that's radioactive for 999 years. So what are we going to do when we're hip deep in spent rods and yellow cake? Ship it off to the moon?! Nice! Then maybe someday that will blow up, like in "Space: 1999". Only it will crash big chunks into the earth. All that, just to avoid a little harmless CO2 (which plants give off every day). Gore needs to stop being the Carrie Nation fanatic of CO2. He's only going to end up causing a world wide depression, and/or carbon blackmarket. I'll bet his clan is poised to be the top smugglers, someday. That's how fortunes are made. Well the Supercapacitors sounded promising. But I wondered who controlled their use. It turns that that the patent is assigned to the Diamond Shamrock Corporation. I quote a google search.

“Ultramar Diamond Shamrock Corporation (UDS), based in San Antonio, Texas, is the second largest independent oil refining and marketing company in the United States.

So once again, a new energy technology is in the hands of Big Oil. Kiss it ever being used to power cars, GOODBYE!

I think Al Gore doesn’t just want us to stop using foreign oil, or even domestic oil. But also coal and oil shale from Canada. It’s all part of his crusade against all carbon based energy commodities. Probably because, they’re considerably cheaper than the alternatives, he hopes to profit from.

Demonizing CO2 as something destroying the earth climate (which has not been proven), is just an excuse for keeping this country (and third world nations) from exploiting its own coal and oil reserves. Ultimately, he want it all Nuclear! Because that’s the only source we know of that’s consistant in power generation. And it’s also great for escalating the arms race all over again. Because when we’re lousy with nuclear byproducts. We’re just going to have to do something useful with it. Like make more bombs.

Well you can’t make a nuclear bomb from a lump or coal, or barrel crude of oil. And neither produces waste that’s radioactive for 999 years. So what are we going to do when we’re hip deep in spent rods and yellow cake? Ship it off to the moon?! Nice! Then maybe someday that will blow up, like in “Space: 1999″. Only it will crash big chunks into the earth. All that, just to avoid a little harmless CO2 (which plants give off every day). Gore needs to stop being the Carrie Nation fanatic of CO2. He’s only going to end up causing a world wide depression, and/or carbon blackmarket. I’ll bet his clan is poised to be the top smugglers, someday. That’s how fortunes are made.

]]> By: gadgetenvy http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2008/07/25/thinking-differently-about-electrical-distribution-and-power-storage/comment-page-3/#comment-1266763 gadgetenvy Sun, 27 Jul 2008 02:12:56 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=19301#comment-1266763 I have been telling my husband for years we need super capacitors. If you think of the electricity we generate now with solar or wind like water falling over a dam, the problem is when that water is gone, we lose the use of it. With super capacitors, we can save energy produced during slack times for peak demand. The car idea is genius. The car capacitors would also spread out demand on the grid, meaning we don't have to transmit power so far and lose so much energy in the process. I too would like to compliment Marc on the great thought provoking article. -Carrie I have been telling my husband for years we need super capacitors. If you think of the electricity we generate now with solar or wind like water falling over a dam, the problem is when that water is gone, we lose the use of it. With super capacitors, we can save energy produced during slack times for peak demand.
The car idea is genius. The car capacitors would also spread out demand on the grid, meaning we don’t have to transmit power so far and lose so much energy in the process.

I too would like to compliment Marc on the great thought provoking article.
-Carrie

]]> By: fred http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2008/07/25/thinking-differently-about-electrical-distribution-and-power-storage/comment-page-3/#comment-1266487 fred Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:51:29 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=19301#comment-1266487 #48 "All of a sudden we are paying for gas what the rest of the world has been paying for a long time". Just as a point of information, this statement is, unfortunately, inaccurate by a factor of about two. Where I live, we have to pay almost exactly twice the current US price for gas - and this is relatively inexpensive compared with prices in most neighboring countries. People in the US have not yet begun to understand what expensive gas really means and that is precisely why the current discussion is so important and why Mark's views should be discussed seriously. #48
“All of a sudden we are paying for gas what the rest of the world has been paying for a long time”.
Just as a point of information, this statement is, unfortunately, inaccurate by a factor of about two. Where I live, we have to pay almost exactly twice the current US price for gas – and this is relatively inexpensive compared with prices in most neighboring countries.

People in the US have not yet begun to understand what expensive gas really means and that is precisely why the current discussion is so important and why Mark’s views should be discussed seriously.

]]> By: ECA http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2008/07/25/thinking-differently-about-electrical-distribution-and-power-storage/comment-page-3/#comment-1266461 ECA Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:03:47 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=19301#comment-1266461 1 more thing... IF YOU DONT INSTALL IT... the CORPS and GOV will... If the Gov installs it, the CORPS get to rent/run/sell it TO YOU. IF the CORPS do it, they get to run/SELL it to you. you will have NO choice in what you are going to pay. REason for price increases... Is that WHEN they CHANGE OVER... They want the SAMe profit nargin that they have NOW... 1 more thing…
IF YOU DONT INSTALL IT…
the CORPS and GOV will…
If the Gov installs it, the CORPS get to rent/run/sell it TO YOU.
IF the CORPS do it, they get to run/SELL it to you.

you will have NO choice in what you are going to pay.

REason for price increases…
Is that WHEN they CHANGE OVER…
They want the SAMe profit nargin that they have NOW…

]]> By: Marc Perkel http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2008/07/25/thinking-differently-about-electrical-distribution-and-power-storage/comment-page-3/#comment-1266313 Marc Perkel Sat, 26 Jul 2008 18:13:12 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=19301#comment-1266313 Go to maxwell.com and you'll see 3600 farad caps. Go to maxwell.com and you’ll see 3600 farad caps.

]]> By: Rich http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2008/07/25/thinking-differently-about-electrical-distribution-and-power-storage/comment-page-3/#comment-1266168 Rich Sat, 26 Jul 2008 17:30:13 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=19301#comment-1266168 The diagram of the capacitors said 31 Farad!!! Jeeee-zus!!! The diagram of the capacitors said 31 Farad!!! Jeeee-zus!!!

]]> By: Ron Larson http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2008/07/25/thinking-differently-about-electrical-distribution-and-power-storage/comment-page-3/#comment-1266042 Ron Larson Sat, 26 Jul 2008 16:04:56 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=19301#comment-1266042 Regarding disposal of nuclear waste. I want to see more creative solutions to get the waste off the planet. Strapping it to a rocket is not an option. As mentioned, rockets and Shuttles can and do fail. I was thinking that the savings could build a space elevator. Then material could slowly and safely be lifted to low orbit, then moved to high orbit for staging to inter-solar transport. Regarding disposal of nuclear waste. I want to see more creative solutions to get the waste off the planet. Strapping it to a rocket is not an option. As mentioned, rockets and Shuttles can and do fail.

I was thinking that the savings could build a space elevator. Then material could slowly and safely be lifted to low orbit, then moved to high orbit for staging to inter-solar transport.

]]> By: Marc Perkel http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2008/07/25/thinking-differently-about-electrical-distribution-and-power-storage/comment-page-3/#comment-1266041 Marc Perkel Sat, 26 Jul 2008 16:04:31 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=19301#comment-1266041 MikeN, True if they get really cheap then we don't need to use car storage. I'm thinking that the price will come down to where they are still expensive, yet cost effective enough to put in cars. And the idea is that car would already be plugged in most of the time charging so that are already there. Why buy more capacitors when you already have them connected to the grid when cars aren't being driven? Obviously power charging stations, hospitals, data centers, and other high priority users would have their own capacitors. And - I might be dead wrong about cars as batteries for the grid. But the concept of electrical grid storage I think is the important point. MikeN,

True if they get really cheap then we don’t need to use car storage. I’m thinking that the price will come down to where they are still expensive, yet cost effective enough to put in cars. And the idea is that car would already be plugged in most of the time charging so that are already there. Why buy more capacitors when you already have them connected to the grid when cars aren’t being driven?

Obviously power charging stations, hospitals, data centers, and other high priority users would have their own capacitors.

And – I might be dead wrong about cars as batteries for the grid. But the concept of electrical grid storage I think is the important point.

]]> By: MikeN http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2008/07/25/thinking-differently-about-electrical-distribution-and-power-storage/comment-page-3/#comment-1265993 MikeN Sat, 26 Jul 2008 15:22:06 +0000 http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=19301#comment-1265993 Yes nice article Mark. The detail about cars just irritates me for some reason. I see no advantage, yet so many are pushing it. A cost benefit analysis of putting in 2 way capability would show it's not worth it I think. Ignoring that, just consider the cost of a single capacitor for a car. If it is very high, then it is not worth putting it in a car. If not, then you can build extra ones cheaply and just use those. Yes nice article Mark. The detail about cars just irritates me for some reason. I see no advantage, yet so many are pushing it. A cost benefit analysis of putting in 2 way capability would show it’s not worth it I think.
Ignoring that, just consider the cost of a single capacitor for a car. If it is very high, then it is not worth putting it in a car. If not, then you can build extra ones cheaply and just use those.

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