Found in a rundown Boston estate: Barack Obama’s aunt Zeituni Onyango with her heart of Gold

Published on October 29th, 2008

Found in a rundown Boston estate: Barack Obama’s aunt Zeituni Onyango – Times Online — Gee, living right next door. Heaven forbid the US media call Obama out on this.

Barack Obama has lived one version of the American Dream that has taken him to the steps of the White House. But a few miles from where the Democratic presidential candidate studied at Harvard, his Kenyan aunt and uncle, immigrants living in modest circumstances in Boston, have a contrasting American story.

Zeituni Onyango, the aunt so affectionately described in Mr Obama’s best-selling memoir Dreams from My Father, lives in a disabled-access flat on a rundown public housing estate in South Boston.

A second relative believed to be the long-lost “Uncle Omar” described in the book was beaten by armed robbers with a “sawed-off rifle” while working in a corner shop in the Dorchester area of the city. He was later evicted from his one-bedroom flat for failing to pay $2,324.20 (£1,488) arrears, according to the Boston Housing Court.

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# 1 Bandit said, on October 29th, 2008 at 9:38 pm

Dvorak, you live with such a black heart and an angry soul. I (almost) feel sorry for you. It seems the only thing that you take from this story is the hope that it may somehow hurt Obama. Did you ever consider helping out these people yourself? Hell no!

# 2 Simian said, on October 29th, 2008 at 10:04 pm

And what exactly should the media “call Obama out on”?

# 3 Moose said, on October 29th, 2008 at 10:23 pm

I’m sure we could look into McCain’s extended family and find disabled people on hard times with little support. Oh wait, we don’t have to look that far. The Ex-wife with health problems whom he ditched for a younger, better-looking, better-funded model fits those parameters.

Seems to me the people cited in the article are among the many reasons why Sen. Obama is fighting for more and better healthcare access.

# 4 ShadowBottle said, on October 29th, 2008 at 10:25 pm

I guess it worked since I’m posting, but wow. Talk about a bid to stay relevant.

# 5 Uns4ne said, on October 29th, 2008 at 10:28 pm

Oh NO!!

A real person with a real family. What’s America coming to.

# 6 GF said, on October 29th, 2008 at 10:33 pm

Nothing more illustrates the power and the audacity of hope. A story like this warms the heart. Even Auntie Obama can dream the dream. Maybe one day she’ll even vote for Obama. I mean after her paperwork has been cleared up. wink wink

# 7 bobbo said, on October 29th, 2008 at 10:48 pm

I second Simians response: just what is to be called out here? The only way to argue Obama should have any concern for these removed relatives would be if in some way we are all our brothers keeper. That sounds like socialism==you know, caring about other people?

F&ck em! This is America. All capitalists here.

# 8 zefyr said, on October 29th, 2008 at 10:53 pm

I will be kind and help out John C (something I never thought I’d do since I’ve been reading him since I was 16) So, your implying Why didn’t he pay the uncles rent? and Why didn’t he do more to help the disabled Aunt? Do we know if he tried? You’ve got a couple more days John. Take of your Pundit hat and put on your the Real Reporter hat. You’ve been complaining about the state of modern reporting for a while now. Hit the streets and get to the bottom of this.

ps. The only problem I see is worse-case, what does that make him guilty of? Not much it seems to me. Good Luck.

# 9 Simian said, on October 29th, 2008 at 11:30 pm

After reading the article three times desperately trying to figure out what point John is trying to make here, I am wondering if his comment isn’t just an attempt at sarcasm that passed us all by………..

# 10 Karl Rove said, on October 29th, 2008 at 11:35 pm

Hey Dvorak, stop doing my messy work for me!

# 11 Peter iNova said, on October 29th, 2008 at 11:42 pm

How many here are supporting their aunts and uncles, financially?

# 12 SN said, on October 30th, 2008 at 1:26 am

“Heaven forbid the US media call Obama out on this.”

I don’t get it. Everyone, and I mean even Bill Gates has some family member somewhere who isn’t doing well financially. It’s a simple fact of life. I’m not entirely sure why you expect Obama to be any different.

# 13 Max Bell said, on October 30th, 2008 at 1:34 am

Maybe because it’s been a non-stop parade of the sleaziest kind of smears for months and people would simply dismiss such an account out of hand at this stage.

# 14 troublemaker said, on October 30th, 2008 at 2:03 am

It’s “under reported” because it’s a non-story and stupid… just like you are, Dvorak.

# 15 troublemaker said, on October 30th, 2008 at 2:06 am

Moose said:

I’m sure we could look into McCain’s extaneded family and find disabled people on hard times with little support. Oh wait, we don’t have to look that far. The Ex-wife with health problems whom he ditched for a younger, better-looking, better-funded model fits those parameters.

Yep, much sleazier behavior IMO.

# 16 sam said, on October 30th, 2008 at 3:14 am

Wow the Obama bots are out in full force. A news story is a news story. Who controls the news? I thought his brother living off one dollar a month was a bigger story and his wife having a 450$ afternoon snack!

# 17 LinusVP said, on October 30th, 2008 at 3:25 am

I thought it was kind of interesting. That’s all. There there now, Obamabots, and have a little more koolaid. Your saviour is going to be just fine. Juuust fiiine.

# 18 Angus said, on October 30th, 2008 at 3:41 am

Well, hard to reconcile wanting to spread the wealth around without asking why he hasn’t spread his own wealth around to relatives in need. If she’s close enough to quote in his book, she’s close enough to throw out some political muscle in order to make sure she’s ok.

# 19 Mister Mustard said, on October 30th, 2008 at 3:42 am

I second Bobbo who seconds Simian. Isn’t this scraping a little close to the bottom of the barrel for some “dirt” on Obama?

Sheesh. So the father who deserted him when he was two has a sister who used to have a good job programming for a beer company, and now lives “in a modest flat”. OFF WITH HIS HEAD, THE DAMNED DIRTY AY-RAB!! MUSLIM COMMIE SYMPATHIZER SOCIALIST!

I repeat: Sheesh. The reason we “have to read this stuff on a blog” is because it’s not newsworthy, and only a partisan hack (or someone looking to collect on a series of poorly-considered bets on who’ll win the election) would think this was of interest to anyone other than an Obama biographer.

I have a number of aunts and uncles, and I doubt they feel that I should be subsidizing their lifestyles.

Maybe Auntie Zeituni Onyango will be able to upgrade to a 10,000 square foot home in Beverly Hills once Obama is elected and starts “spreading the wealth around”.

This post is a new low in Obamaphobia.

HAW!

# 20 keaneo said, on October 30th, 2008 at 3:45 am

So, uh, John – how many aunts and cousins are you supporting?

# 21 Mij said, on October 30th, 2008 at 4:09 am

You out there supporting aunts, uncles or cousins John? Stick to writing about technology. Leave the emotionally ridiculous appeals to the campaigners.

# 22 Ivor Biggun said, on October 30th, 2008 at 4:16 am

Dvorak makes the point I’ve forwarded for weeks now. His minions post pro-marxist stories, while John C. himself brings the other side. Sadly John doesn’t post nearly as often as he should.

# 23 Mister Mustard said, on October 30th, 2008 at 4:52 am

#22 – ‘gor

If this kind of “scandal” is the best the “other side” has to offer, I’d say we’re going to be happily living in a “marxist” world as long as any of us is alive.

Good gawd, man. Obama’s not supporting his aunt and his weird-o uncle, the bodega magnate?

Have you no shame? Can’t you just admit that Obama is the better candidate, and move on? Christ on a crutch. He’s not giving money to his aunt (who already has a roof over her head and three meals a day)? WTF??

Is this a joke?

# 24 pedro said, on October 30th, 2008 at 4:54 am

Now that I know he took care of his family, I’m sure he’ll take care of America. I’m sold!

# 25 Xtended said, on October 30th, 2008 at 5:02 am

Go out and vote 4

O’Hussein or McBalanced

sup to you

# 26 Dallas said, on October 30th, 2008 at 5:21 am

We have a penalty flag on the field.

John, is ineligible to throw that Hail Mary pass for McCain.

Either way, it is so lame it would have been flagged as intentional grounding.

# 27 contempt said, on October 30th, 2008 at 5:22 am

#19 Mister Mustard
>>I have a number of aunts and uncles, and I doubt they feel that I should be subsidizing their lifestyles.

But then you are the great messiah, lord of all there is. They’ll be putting his freakin’ head on Mt. Rushmore before this is over.

# 28 yawn said, on October 30th, 2008 at 5:23 am

You better get used to this, bush butt licker: President Obama

# 29 The Monster's Lawyer said, on October 30th, 2008 at 5:52 am

#18 Anus – “Well, hard to reconcile wanting to spread the wealth around without asking why he hasn’t spread his own wealth around to relatives in need. If she’s close enough to quote in his book, she’s close enough to throw out some political muscle in order to make sure she’s ok.”

Then we’d be reading how Obama spent money from his campaign, office etc.. on relatives.
Sorry John, you can’t have it both ways.

# 30 Wretched Gnu said, on October 30th, 2008 at 5:56 am

I’m confused. How desperate can Auntie be if she contributed $260 to Obama’s campaign?

And why doesn’t she see her situation as injustice? She thinks Obama’s great and won’t say a bad word against him…

# 31 Ron Larson said, on October 30th, 2008 at 5:58 am

I’m not responsible for my aunt. Why should Obama be responsible for his? I don’t understand the point of this article.

In fact, it sounds like she is already on the gov’t dole.

# 32 J said, on October 30th, 2008 at 6:09 am

I’d much rather talk about “Joe the Plummer” who is now McCains foreign policy expert and also has a country music contract. The best part is he probably knows more about foreign affairs than the Republican VP nominee

You Republicans are so fucking pathetic it is almost funny. A half Aunt and Half Uncle and you think of course he should be supporting them? I thought you Republicans believed in everyone supporting themselves? It just makes you bigger hypocrites.

# 33 Mr. Fusion said, on October 30th, 2008 at 6:10 am

John C,

Geeze, most of these comments make my thoughts look mild.

For your sake, I hope you didn’t wager too much on McCain.

# 34 Mister Mustard said, on October 30th, 2008 at 6:21 am

#27 – ‘tempt

>>But then you are the great messiah, lord of
>>all there is.

Are you a monkey? What kind of jibber-jabber is that?

Deal with it, dude. President Obama.

Nobody gives a f&ck if he sends his Auntie a chek each month or not.

That, just like McBush’s doomed Quijote-esque tilt for the presidency, is irrelevant.

# 35 Cursor_ said, on October 30th, 2008 at 6:24 am

I see that from many of these posts that the day is here when people of the past talked about the breakdown of the american family and their standards.

In the days of Dvorak’s parents they would have done all they could within reason to help the family, even if all it was to send clothes or some food. They would help.

My mother’s family would have also done the same and did as they lived through the depression.

I can see the mindset of the baby boomers and post boomers here. Screw anyone else its all about me me me! Yet you will gleefully take any courtesy from the government and from others when you want or need it.

It was a time in the US where you would help both kin and neighbour. That time is obviously gone from the manner of posts here.

Cursor_

# 36 Mister Mustard said, on October 30th, 2008 at 6:26 am

#22 – J

>>I’d much rather talk about “Joe the Plummer”
>>who is now McCains foreign policy expert and
>>also has a country music contract.

I don’t think you’re going to get any takers on that discussion.

Even though McBush continues to pimp this phoney, most reasonable Repubs (if there are any left, after the past 8 years) don’t want to talk about him.

He’s a punch-line on late-night talk shows.

If there was any one event that sealed the deal on McBush’s defeat, it was bringing up this whack-o neo-Nazi charlatan, Joe “the plumber”. With his plumbing “career”, his $250,000.00 income, his plans to buy the business, and so forth.

Haw! Way to go, Maverick!

# 37 Mister Mustard said, on October 30th, 2008 at 6:30 am

#35 – Cursor

The auntie doesn’t seem to be hurting; she can donate $260 to Obama’s campaign, she has a roof over her head and 3 square meals a day.

What’s Obama supposed to do? Put himself and his family into poverty so that his aunt can live in a nicer place? Sheesh.

And the uncle? Haw! Maybe if he hadn’t gone MIA, somebody would be redistributing their wealth his way. When you go to groud like a chased fox, you can’t expect to get much in the way of charity donations.

# 38 contempt said, on October 30th, 2008 at 6:33 am

#34 Mister Mustard

President Obama… No way dude!

We all know by his past actions that Obama would never send any of his own money to help a relative. Your money, well that’s a different matter.

Your money and he gets the credit. Now that’s the way a democratic party leader operates.

# 39 Mister Mustard said, on October 30th, 2008 at 6:45 am

#38 – contempt

>>President Obama… No way dude!

Read the polls, son.

http://tinyurl.com/57z8ad

Eighty-two days, and President Obama will be walking proud, taking his seat at the desk in the Oval Office.

Thank God Almighty! Free at last!

If you’re looking for a Repug POTUS, you’re going to have to expand your horizons out to 2024. We’ve got at least 16 years of non-fascist presidents ahead of us. And even in 2024, it’s unlikely that the Party of Evil will be able to field a winning candidate.

# 40 contempt said, on October 30th, 2008 at 7:07 am

#39 Mister Mustard
>>Read the polls, son.

Why would anyone believe polls? They are a tool of propaganda used to influence thought. It’s been a long time since they reflected any kind of reality.

It’s a shame you don’t see it, but if you win you lose.

# 41 Angus said, on October 30th, 2008 at 7:25 am

Best Line of the Article: She declined to answer most other questions about her relationship with the presidential contender until after the November 4 election. “I can’t talk about it, I just pray for him, that’s all,” she said, adding: “After the 4th, I can talk to anyone.”

weird. Was she paid off?

# 42 The Monster's Lawyer said, on October 30th, 2008 at 7:28 am

#41 Anus – Either she is getting money or she isn’t. What’s it gonna be.

Innuendo anyone?

# 43 The Monster's Lawyer said, on October 30th, 2008 at 7:32 am

#40 con_man – If the polls were showing your man ahead you would be blathering on about how Obama should just get out etc… Since your man is down all the polls are just crap. Same double sided reasoning that all loser Republican’s share.

# 44 pedro said, on October 30th, 2008 at 7:36 am

#31 Then, you’re not ready to spread the wealth. Go watch the Obamamercial 30 more times.

#34 Oh, c’mon. you already bought a whole shipment of Obama votive candles. Jesus told you to.

Obama: The new St. Martin de Porres
http://tinyurl.com/6lz7er

# 45 Paddy-O said, on October 30th, 2008 at 7:38 am

#18 Angus, “Well, hard to reconcile wanting to spread the wealth around without asking why he hasn’t spread his own wealth around to relatives in need…”

DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO and, gimme all yo money or I’ll put a cap in yo…

Ah yes, Marxism is wonderful.

# 46 Ivor Biggun said, on October 30th, 2008 at 7:55 am

Mister Ketchup and his Obumma-worshippers are delusional if they think his “solutions” are going to do anything but make things worse. We’re gonna be yearning for the days of Jimmy Carter’s economy, with 18% inflation and 12% unemployment. That’s why ol’ Jimmy is giddy at the prospect of Obumma getting in.

As I posted elsewhere, if Obama’s “bottom-up” economics is so successful, why aren’t Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, Russia and North Korea the leading world economies?

If Obumma accomplishes what he intends in his first 100 days (and he will if Pelosi and Reid are still in charge), there will be no economic recovery.

The theory that stealing from the successful and giving to the unsuccessful never makes the unsuccessful rich or happy.

Just like Wayne Huizenga, who is trying to sell off the Dolphins ASAP to avoid Obumma tax hikes, so are the rest of the successfuls prepping for an Obumma administration. I’m thinking that the Cayman Islands and Switzerland are flush with American cash right now. So when Obumma goes to the tap to get it, there won’t be any. And I applaud those who protect what they have earned from Marxist bastards like Obumma.

# 47 Angus said, on October 30th, 2008 at 7:59 am

Anus? Nice, Monster Lawyer, are you like twelve or something?

# 48 bhavekost said, on October 30th, 2008 at 8:02 am

JCD – instructional, not just the article, but the complete lack of debate here on the merits of the article.

# 49 contempt said, on October 30th, 2008 at 8:04 am

#43 Monster’s Lawyer

Polls are news media propaganda. The day the media began using them “as news” was the day I knew the fix was in.

# 50 J said, on October 30th, 2008 at 8:14 am

# 45 Paddy the Ignorant Shit Talker

“Ah yes, Marxism is wonderful.”

I would like to see you or any of your troll friends explain how the O’bama plans are Marxist or even Socialist. You need to learn what those thing are before making such nonsensical comparisons. Just so you know, collecting Taxes, in general, is “spreading the wealth around.” Taxes are not Socialist or Marxist ideas.

# 51 Paddy-O said, on October 30th, 2008 at 8:16 am

#50 J, “I would like to see you or any of your troll friends explain how the O’bama plans are Marxist or even Socialist.”

As I’ve explained to you before. My rate for tutoring grade school level classes is $150.hour, minimum 5 hours. I’ll set up a PayPal account and when you pay I’ll start your lessons…

# 52 The Monster's Lawyer said, on October 30th, 2008 at 8:20 am

#47 Anus – Nice comeback. Is that all you got?

# 53 J said, on October 30th, 2008 at 8:21 am

# 51 Paddy the Ignorant Shit Talker

Paddy Cake admits he doesn’t know anything about Marxism or Socialism. Go figure!

You must hate to be shown that you are an ignorant fuck huh?

Your responses are so predictable. Everyone here, I bet, could have predicted that you would respond in just that way because you don’t have a fucking clue about that which you speak.

# 54 Li said, on October 30th, 2008 at 8:31 am

So, Obama has some poor relatives? For shame! Why in the glorious United Socialist Bankers Republic, we only elect people if they are from ultra-rich, old money families. After all, they’ve been doing such a good job so far!

# 55 zefyr said, on October 30th, 2008 at 8:47 am

A Couple of Things. First, can you seemingly literate people who keep throwing around “Marxist” like it means anything in this discussion actually look it up. Taxing is redistributive by its nature in all types of government, as people have vastly different income levels and therefore pay vastly different amounts of taxes, yet are generally eligible for the same level of services from the government. Cooperations, however, definitely get a great deal, especially if they can afford to influence the process.

But, since this post is supposed to be about Obama and his “Folk” lets address it. As an Obama fan I hope I haven’t reached “Bot” status. I actually do find the question of his family interesting. John has also spoken of his brother in Africa being in poverty. As some of you have said It would nice to see that he takes care of his family and too also see him put his money where his mouth is and live up to his own ideals. One of you noted that this side of his family is fairly estranged from him, as his connection to it, his father, left when he was a toddler. However, I know If I could find out whats going on here, I sure would like to see that once he had gained a level of wealth that might allow him to be able to help his estranged relatives, that he not only made the effort to do so, but also began to have contact with them. I agree another one of you that noted people don’t support their relatives like they used to, and its disappointing to many of us with what many might consider to be old fashioned notions of family. Unfortunately, if he is guilty of turning a blind eye, I’m sure he is no more so than most of the populous.

And, speaking of Carter. Man, wouldn’t it be great to have another Billy. What a freak show that was. a quote from Designing Women:

Julia: I’m saying this is the South. And we’re proud of our crazy people. We don’t hide them up in the attic. We bring ‘em right down to the living room and show ‘em off. See, Phyllis, no one in the South ever asks if you have crazy people in your family. They just ask what side they’re on.

I foresee an awesome June-teenth Bar-B-Q/Family Reunion on the White House lawn. Wha? Wha? I know, not PC. Lighten Up. The idea of a family in the White House that is not completely disconnected from how most of us live I find incredible inspiring. Think about it.

# 56 Dick Dawkins said, on October 30th, 2008 at 8:47 am

Perhaps Obama and Michelle should dip into their deep pockets and spread the wealth with family.

Charity begins at home…

# 57 brendal said, on October 30th, 2008 at 8:53 am

Thank you, Mr. Dvorak.

# 58 contempt said, on October 30th, 2008 at 8:53 am

#54 Li

This wouldn’t mean so much had Obama not set himself up as being his brothers keeper. His claims of the need to spread the wealth in order to take care of the least among us seems fine as long it’s not his wealth.

Obama is proving himself to be the worst kind of hypocrite. He is not willing to spread his own wealth, but demands we do it by the government stealing ours.

Obama is selfish and disgraceful and will make an opprobrious leader.

# 59 pedro said, on October 30th, 2008 at 8:54 am

#47 A lot of posters here are that age.

#53 No, He just admited to have learned that you have no clue about basic politics and he’s willing to tutor you for a fee. Maybe Obama can spread the wealth to you and pay for the tutoring?

353 He couldn’t help his family. How can he help America?

# 60 Sweety said, on October 30th, 2008 at 9:19 am

Cow-Paddy,

Come visit me at my site and I’ll let you pay me $150 / hour. Just click on my name and hunny pie, we can forget all about those nasty liberals. I think I might even smother you in love. Smother, smother, smother, …

Email me hunny. I’m waiting for you. (giggle)

# 61 European said, on October 30th, 2008 at 9:21 am

I hope that Obama gets elected, because it will be interesting to see how he will ruin the economy and to watch riots made by naive voters who didn’t get their Obama handouts (like it was in South Africa).

# 62 The Monster's Lawyer said, on October 30th, 2008 at 9:37 am

Don’t fall for it PaddyHo, it’s a commie pinko trap that will make you a liberal! Don’t do it!

# 63 Paddy-O said, on October 30th, 2008 at 9:39 am

#61 Cue Mr. Bill scene. LOL!

# 64 J said, on October 30th, 2008 at 9:53 am

#59 peso

“No, He just admited to have learned that you have no clue about basic politics and he’s willing to tutor you for a fee.”

First, I wonder why brendelpuss doesn’t correct your lack luster use of grammar and spelling?

Peso, you and Paddy Cake the Ignorant Shit Talker are the ones saying that O’bama is a Socialist and or a Marxist. That in itself shows the tremendous ignorance of basic politics. I want to understand what make a person so fucking stupid. So, I asked for an explanation. In that explanation, I would find the reasoning he uses to arrive at his uneducated statements.

Since Paddy the Ignorant Shit Talker is renowned for the “evade and give no answer” tactic, I just wanted to toss the dice and see what he knew. What is my conclusion? He knows NOTHING!!

# 65 locomotivebreath1901 said, on October 30th, 2008 at 9:53 am

Krykee Doodle.

The comments are just stupefying.

The hubris and hypocrisy of Obama’s ‘do as i say, not as I do’ spread the wealth nonsense is lost on these obtuse malcontents.

You guys must really love your knee pads.

And we all know that the MSM would never scandalize McCain over a destitute relative.

Willful ignorance, much?

I have to hurl….

# 66 qsabe said, on October 30th, 2008 at 10:18 am

Geeze.. John has joined the sleeze patrol now.

# 67 MasonReese said, on October 30th, 2008 at 10:42 am

I hate poor people just as much as the next guy…. but i hate people who are related to poor people even more.

# 68 Sea Lawyer said, on October 30th, 2008 at 12:12 pm

#55, proportionally equal taxation would be one thing, but progressively increasing rates of taxation is indeed a Marxist tax system, and in fact is the 2nd of the 10 so-called “pillars” he enumerated in his Manifesto of the Communist Party – right after abolishing all private property.

# 69 Paddy-O said, on October 30th, 2008 at 12:17 pm

#68 Don’t do that!

The last time I taught a lib about Marxism he realized what his party stood for and had a psychotic break.

Not good. Although, some libs already know it and are fine with it.

# 70 zefyr said, on October 30th, 2008 at 12:19 pm

#68

Not a unique pillar in any economic system. The father of all economic works below:

“The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state.” Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations

# 71 zefyr said, on October 30th, 2008 at 12:26 pm

#68

PS. I wouldn’t be opposed to a simplified tax system. Given all of the loop holes and deductions its a mess to determine real net tax rates. This is why I think they keep coming up with additional points for the upper tier. Any increased taxes will most likely only effect the top 5% that have exponentially higher incomes than the mean. Here’s an Interesting concept. http://fairtax.org

# 72 Paddy-O said, on October 30th, 2008 at 12:26 pm

#70 ““From each according to his ability, to each according to his need””

Yes, Marx borrowed this piece from Smith and thus, “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need”

# 73 Sea Lawyer said, on October 30th, 2008 at 12:27 pm

#70, again, we are comparing proportionate taxation to disproportionate taxation. A progressive tax system is disproportionate.

# 74 Sea Lawyer said, on October 30th, 2008 at 12:28 pm

#71, I am very aware of the Fairtax, and I support the idea of it too.

# 75 zefyr said, on October 30th, 2008 at 12:29 pm

#68

PPS. To me the defining characteristic of any brand of socialism is the “Planned Economy” portion, not the taxation scheme.

# 76 James Hill said, on October 30th, 2008 at 12:32 pm

Barack Obama doesn’t care about black people, either.

And you thought he wasn’t qualified for President…

(And yes, another thread where liberals fail to contribute anything except hit count. You’re nothing but fodder for the machine.)

# 77 Paddy-O said, on October 30th, 2008 at 12:35 pm

#71 Interesting, but anything tied to absolute $ amounts just encourages the gov’t to create inflation thus negating the benefits listed in the “prebate” section. Classic flaw.

# 78 J said, on October 30th, 2008 at 12:38 pm

# 73 Sea Lawyer

“A progressive tax system is disproportionate.”

Your right. The proportion of benefits for those with higher income is far greater than those with a lower income. We may pay more but we also benefit more. Anyone who says we don’t is a liar or a greedy bastard.

# 79 bobbo said, on October 30th, 2008 at 12:41 pm

#73–SL==the “fair tax” is disproportionate as well.

It all depends on what you compare the tax to.

Earned income? Discretionary Income? Hourly Wage? Passive/Active Income? etc.

In short==there is no such thing as “fair”–only who’s ox get gored, and what a society needs to do to keep the waring classes on their computers and out of the streets.

# 80 Sea Lawyer said, on October 30th, 2008 at 12:41 pm

#75, you cannot separate taxation and property from your economic central planning, as you’ll find it quite difficult to dictate to others what to produce when they possess all of the wealth and capital.

# 81 J said, on October 30th, 2008 at 12:43 pm

So, everyone calling O’bama a Marxist really only has one point to connect him with it. He wants to continue the progressive tax system that we have had in America for a very long time.

LOL So fucking lame!!!! That being the case then McCain is also a Marxist. I don’t hear him saying he was going to discontinue the graduated tax system.

# 82 Mister Mustard said, on October 30th, 2008 at 12:43 pm

#76 – Jimmie Hill

Your poverty is noted.

Just pray that they won’t restrict the welfare criteria, like they did under Bill.

# 83 Mister Mustard said, on October 30th, 2008 at 12:46 pm

#81 – J

>>That being the case then McCain is also a
>>Marxist. I don’t hear him saying he was going
>>to discontinue the graduated tax system.

Of course he’s not saying that.

He’s more of a frigging Marxist Commie pig than President Obama would EVER be.

Take that, Repugs, and stuff it.

TIA

# 84 Sea Lawyer said, on October 30th, 2008 at 12:52 pm

#79, No matter how rich or how poor you are, every dollar you spend is taxed equally under the Fair Tax. What makes the tax “progressive” in nature is the rebate, but since everybody gets the same rebate I’ll reluctantly swallow it as it’s still fundamentally better to tax consumption than to tax productivity.

# 85 Sea Lawyer said, on October 30th, 2008 at 12:54 pm

#81, I didn’t know Obama was Irish.

# 86 Paddy-O said, on October 30th, 2008 at 12:56 pm

#78 J “We may pay more but we also benefit more.”

Hmm, as I’ve gotten along in life and pay more & more in taxes, I’m still stuck with the same level of taxpayer funded services as someone who pays less in taxes. Actually, many services aren’t available unless, you pay less in taxes.

Ergo, you are wrong.

# 87 J said, on October 30th, 2008 at 12:56 pm

# 84 Sea Lawyer

“it’s still fundamentally better to tax consumption than to tax productivity.”

We don’t tax productivity we tax income. The two are unrelated. One does not have to be productive to have an income.

# 88 J said, on October 30th, 2008 at 12:57 pm

85 Sea Lawyer

O’bama is a South Side Joke!!! I think it is funny.

# 89 J said, on October 30th, 2008 at 1:02 pm

# 86 Paddy Cake the Ignorant Shit Talker.

It figures a dolt like you wouldn’t understand the concept. It isn’t about social programs dipshit.

# 90 zefyr said, on October 30th, 2008 at 1:12 pm

#86 I would say the laws that protect your business interests/wealth qualify as services the average worker doesn’t use

# 91 Sea Lawyer said, on October 30th, 2008 at 1:16 pm

#78, I’m heartened to see that the notion is still alive and well that nobody earns what they have or that goals, ambition, ability, intelligence, motivation are never better explanations for what people achieve in life than that they simply found and exploited a juicier government meal ticket.

Who’s more greedy, the guy who just wants to keep more of his own money, or the guy who wants to use the power of government to take somebody else’s?

# 92 bobbo said, on October 30th, 2008 at 1:23 pm

#84–SL==since you switched subjects, I will assume you agree that the fair tax is as disproportionate as any other tax==all depending on what it is compared to.

Productivity? Like inheriting a fortune and living off the interest? THAT kind of productivity? or like getting a multi-million dollar bonus while the company tanks and lays off workers? THAT kind of productivity?

MY OPEN CHALLENGE TO ALL REPUGS: Would you rather pay marginally more on income over $250K or get a small rebate on an income of $40K?

Futher==would you rather make $40K a year by substituting your health working in a coal mine for a wage, or make $250K by trading bonds?

Wealth creating, wages, “fairness”==all VERY SUBJECT to definitions. If you are well off you should be happy.

Paddy Dumb Shit is concerned because someone with a health problem might get socialistic medicine that he doesn’t personally benefit from. LET ME ASK YOU THE SAME QUESTION AS ABOVE:::: Would you rather be sick with a government health program, or healthy and not need it?

You social/marxist call outs are all basically very spoiled children who don’t understand the benefits you receive from society. You think you “earned” it all yourself and deserve to keep it all while other people lack basic services.

Little cretins.

# 93 LibertyLover said, on October 30th, 2008 at 1:28 pm

#91, Who’s more greedy, the guy who just wants to keep more of his own money, or the guy who wants to use the power of government to take somebody else’s?

Well put. I think that sums up the entire argument in one, succinct sentence. Again, well put.

# 94 J said, on October 30th, 2008 at 1:32 pm

# 91 Sea Lawyer

Nobody? No. Just many that don’t. Show me a rich man and I will show you someone who has lied, cheated, inherited, or done some unethical things to get there. With VERY VERY rare exceptions.

As to the point of my post. There are tons of people that earn all their income from being nothing but money changers. THEY PRODUCE NOTHING!!!!!!

# 95 J said, on October 30th, 2008 at 1:35 pm

# 92 bobbo

Thank you bobbo you said what I am too tired to say.

# 96 Paddy-O said, on October 30th, 2008 at 1:35 pm

#90 “I would say the laws that protect your business interests/wealth qualify as services the average worker doesn’t use”

If I’m a portrait painter from home there is no laws/services that protect me more than my next door neighbor, even if I make twice as much and am taxes 3X as much…

Try again. Like I said, false. Especially evident when except for #90, the responses are insults not legit answers…

Very telling….

# 97 bobbo said, on October 30th, 2008 at 1:36 pm

#93–LL==heh, heh. Its MINE!! ALL MINE!!!

Little cretins.

# 98 zefyr said, on October 30th, 2008 at 1:40 pm

#93, the “guy who wants to use the power of government to take somebody else’s?” doesn’t necessarily want that, he just realizes thats how the system works and he wants to survive. You seem to keep insisting that the wealthy do not receive any benefits from the government, much less any benefits above and beyond what the little guys uses. A trillion plus was just given to the banks, and go figure, they aren’t even loaning out the money. Now, ask yourself who the biggest thieves are.

# 99 zefyr said, on October 30th, 2008 at 1:43 pm

Also, lets be pragmatic here. Where do most of our tax dollars go? Literally the answer is The Defense Industry. Over Half the Federal Budget!

# 100 J said, on October 30th, 2008 at 1:43 pm

# 96 Paddy Cake the Ignorant Shit Talketr

It isn’t about what the government provides you dumbass. It is what society provides because you are rich.

# 101 Sea Lawyer said, on October 30th, 2008 at 1:48 pm

#92, Bobbo, you are a fucking idiot.

Benefits I receive from society? I presume you are referring to the society that more than anything is defined by its respecting the sanctity of rights to life, liberty and property? The society that has created the greatest standards of living the world has ever seen because it left people alone to pursue their own goals based upon their abilities. The society whose economic freedom and competitive markets drove technological innovation to higher and higher peaks in pursuit of greater productivity and efficiency – which is the real reason why nobody now is toiling away in factories 18 hours a day, despite what the typical union line is.

Is that the society you are referring to? It must not be, since property rights mean nothing as long as you can find a more compelling use (in your mind) for it than he who actually earned it. Yes, I must be nothing more than a cretin, because I refuse to accept that your perversely claimed “right” to healthcare or any other service you cannot provide for yourself places some legitimate claim of obligation on my part to provide it.

# 102 Paddy-O said, on October 30th, 2008 at 1:53 pm

#100 J “It is what society provides because you are rich.”

So, if I’m a painter and Joe is a painter and I decide to paint more (work harder) than Joe. I sell more to a buyer. My WORK has provided more. Society hasn’t provided me more, I have produced and EXCHANGED more.

You are OWNED.

# 103 bobbo said, on October 30th, 2008 at 1:56 pm

Silly childish cretinish rich people need to understand that when the gulf between the classes gets wide enough the lower class will revolt. Thats because “basically” we homo sapiens are all the same. We will not starve to death while someone behine a big stone wall feeds grouse to his hounds.

Economic theory–how to produce the most wealth for the most people. Most theories do not advocate skewing 22% of the wealth into the top 1% of people. Such disparity simply doesn’t work.

Take my examples from above. Given the mandated choice==I personally would rather make $40K per year trading stock than make $250K per year digging coal==yet our society is arranged just the opposite.

By and large the RICH get police services, secure banking services, ordered enforcement of contracts thru the courts, protection from foreign enemies, stable world economies===all things the poor and middle class get less of or don’t need at all.

The profit motive and the wealth it unleashes should not be confused with small minded cretinism that thinks they owe nothing back.

Wealth gained “thru the system” as in for profit CEO’s is highly suspect and should be controled as in CEO’s should not earn more than 40X times the average companies emplyee. You say thats not fair???? Stupid and unequal how those rich cabal members make it in society.

Much different is Paddy’s example of an artist. One artist paints cats all day long and is poor. The other paints dogs and is poor. A third paints Campbell Soup Cans and is very rich. Now thats a free market. All the other free markets are actually “regulated” and regulated poorly in favor of the uber rich.

# 104 Sea Lawyer said, on October 30th, 2008 at 2:00 pm

#98, I’ve never said the wealthy don’t gain any benefit. The government exists to protect our rights from violation by others, and in that we all benefit, or at least we should. But where concerning taxing of income is concerned, as unideal as it is to me, I’d be more than happy to have a single flat percentage tax on all income, with no exemptions. 10% of a 300k income is significantly more than 10% of a 25k one, and should be more than fine to meet this “the rich pay more because they receive more benefit” mantra.

# 105 J said, on October 30th, 2008 at 2:09 pm

# 102 Paddy Cake the Ignorant Shit Talker

You still don’t get it do you. Well, all I can say to you is enjoy being poor or middle class.

As to your pointless and goofy post. I am willing to bet that I work less and make about 100X than a factory worker makes. How exactly does that fit into your work harder make more theory. I know people that don’t EVER work and yet make more money than you will ever even dream of making. Does that fit your theory of how it all works?

# 106 Paddy-O said, on October 30th, 2008 at 2:14 pm

#105 J “You still don’t get it do you.”

Can’t explain his own assertions.

OWNED!

Go to bed now.

# 107 bobbo said, on October 30th, 2008 at 2:16 pm

#104—SL==SHOCKING SIMPLY SHOCKING!!!!

TELL ME ITS NOT TRUE—– you’d rather have a discretionary income of $270K per year than %22,500?

AMAZING!!!!!

wHAT A GUY!!!!

Yes, its a free society that offers to let poor and rich equally sleep under bridge trestles and eat moldy bread.

What a self centered cretin.

# 108 pedro said, on October 30th, 2008 at 2:18 pm

BTW whatever happened to “Is not what the country can do for you but what you can do for your country”?

This modern liberals seem to have lost their sight. Just saying.

Post #83 is the blog equivalent of someone closing his eyes, putting each index finger in his ears and going “lalalalalalalalalalalalala”

#95 You say tired, I say incapable.

# 109 bobbo said, on October 30th, 2008 at 2:22 pm

#108–Pedro==becoming very sophisticated in your word choice. You finishing up your college work or what?

Actually, in context, I believe paying taxes so as to support a social safety net IS what the rich can/should do for their country without bellyaching. In fact, I believe most of them do.

Its only the fantasy rich posers like Joe the Plumber who really complain about paying taxes and vote against that from which they would personally benefit.

Red state voters–total retards.

# 110 J said, on October 30th, 2008 at 2:27 pm

# 106 Paddy Cake the Ignorant Shit Talker

I charge $500 per hour for tutoring about money issues.

LOL

I will give you one and you can figure the rest out on your own.

For instance. Due to my family wealth, I was guaranteed a a college education from a prestigious university. Pretty much anyone I wanted. All I had to do was not fuck up. As long as my GPA was positive, I was in. I didn’t have to try real hard. I just couldn’t fuck up. Exceptions are made for those with money and a low GPA. LIKE G.W. BUSH

Juxtaposition to a poor white kid. To get into any one of those universities they would have to score high on their entrance tests and also maintain a high GPA. That means all things being equal I had a tremendous advantage. Not to mention if the poor white kid didn’t get a scholarship or government grant they couldn’t pay for it. I didn’t have to worry about any of those. Although, I was offered them.

That is ONE of the benifits of wealth that society offers.

# 111 LibertyLover said, on October 30th, 2008 at 2:31 pm

#99, You might want to look at this.

http://tinyurl.com/9e24r

# 112 Paddy-O said, on October 30th, 2008 at 3:00 pm

#110 J “That is ONE of the benifits of wealth that society offers.”

No, that’s a benefit that your families work provided.

OWNED

# 113 pedro said, on October 30th, 2008 at 3:33 pm

#109 So where do the people receiving government welfare/taxbreaks enter in that phrase? Or was it to be applied to only a part of the society?

And, according to a supposedly Canadian poster somewhere, I’m proof positive of the failure of the American education system. Go figure.

#110 Let me guess, you fucked up.

# 114 Li said, on October 30th, 2008 at 3:46 pm

These arguments are tiresome. We have trillions being stolen from us by the bankers, we nearly had a nuclear war with Russia a little while ago, the climate is changing, the bees are disappearing, we’ve got journalists and protesters roughed up at the conventions, iffy voting practices, we have people starving while there is plenty of food. And taxes are the best thing you can think to argue about? Oh you poor rich people and your burden; come back and whine at me when it’s 91%, like it was under Ike.

# 115 Rick Cain said, on October 30th, 2008 at 3:53 pm

George W Bush has a half mexican cousin who was accused of harassing and beating his ex-wife.

How is this relevant? it isn’t but its about as relevant as this obama expose’

# 116 Paddy-O said, on October 30th, 2008 at 4:34 pm

#114 LILI said, “come back and whine at me when it’s 91%, like it was under Ike.”

Yeah, life sucks when Dems control congress for more than 4 years. LOL!

# 117 zefyr said, on October 30th, 2008 at 11:46 pm

#111

According to the Center for Defense Information, the US outlays for defense as a percentage of federal discretionary spending, has from Fiscal Year 2003 consumed more than half (50.5%) of all such funding and has risen steadily.

Some of the key reasons it is hard to find a
chart that accurately represents Defense Spending:

The recent invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan are largely funded through supplementary spending bills outside the Federal Budget, so they are not included in the military budget.In addition, the United States has black budget military spending which is not listed as Federal spending and is not included in published military spending figures. Other military-related items, like maintenance of the nuclear arsenal and the money spent by the Veterans Affairs Department, are not included in the official budget. Thus, the total amount spent by the United States on military spending is higher.

# 118 J said, on October 31st, 2008 at 6:44 am

# 112 Paddy the Ignorant Shit Talker

“No, that’s a benefit that your families work provided.”

So, the poor white kids parents didn’t work hard enough at the factory and therefore their kid doesn’t get that benefit?

You are so fucked up!!

# 119 Mr. Fusion said, on October 31st, 2008 at 4:44 pm

#101, SL,

Yes, I must be nothing more than a cretin, because I refuse to accept that your perversely claimed “right” to healthcare or any other service you cannot provide for yourself places some legitimate claim of obligation on my part to provide it.

The problem is that you still want some programs to be paid for by society. Police, fire protection, snow removal, military, parks, courts, bridges and roads, harbor dredging, etc. Picking and choosing which services you want to participate in is a little difficult when most of them are inter-meshed.

If the majority of Americans want a single payer health care system, I can think of no reason why we shouldn’t have one. If the majority of Americans want to build ten new super aircraft carriers then great to that. Just because you will never get to fly off of one of the new carriers is not a satisfactory reason to halt the project.

# 120 Mr. Fusion said, on October 31st, 2008 at 4:49 pm

#102, Cow-Paddy Ignorant Shit Talking Sociopath,

You are OWNED.

The height of your contribution to this discourse.

There are several posters that I disagree with. I will credit them as having made intelligent and thoughtful posts. They are still wrong, but I do acknowledge their contribution. Your contribution? Right, you are owned.

# 121 Paddy-O said, on October 31st, 2008 at 5:01 pm

#120 LOL!

Good argument. ROFL

# 122 Mister Mustard said, on October 31st, 2008 at 5:05 pm

#121 – O’Furniture

You may not like The Fuse’s arguments, but he’s right. He OWNS you.

# 123 Paddy-O said, on October 31st, 2008 at 5:06 pm

#122 “You may not like The Fuse’s arguments, but he’s right.”

Nothing to like or dislike. He didn’t present a counter argument. LOL

# 124 Mister Mustard said, on October 31st, 2008 at 5:13 pm

#123 – O’Furniture

>>LOL.

Giggle giggle. Titter titter! Snicker!

Je suis desolé, mon ami, mais tu es possédé.

Go gack to thinking about 2024.

# 125 GF said, on October 31st, 2008 at 9:57 pm

This just in, how did I know, Auntie Obama is an ILLEGAL ALIEN. She’s living in public housing that U.S. citizens should be getting and she gave Obama a $250 illegal campaign contribution.

Way to go O bama!

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D945TEE01&show_article=1

# 126 pedro said, on November 1st, 2008 at 2:56 am

#125 You beat meto it! Seems that Obama not only did help her (and we were badmouthing him here, apologies for that) but will surely help her once he gets into office. And his stance about illegal aliens had no secret agenda.

After all, she helped him in that book of him.

# 127 AG said, on November 11th, 2008 at 4:02 am

“The comments are just stupefying.”
Ten percent of the people exist so that you don’t need to spend time with the other ninety percent.

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