It used to be that gays were in the closet. Now it seems that people who voted yes on California Proposition 8 are the ones in the closet. If you admit that you voted yes on 8 to define marriage as heterosexual only, then you are labeled a bigot and a hater. So you can’t tell your friends you voted yes on 8 because they won’t talk to you anymore. And there’s no having a civil conversation with gay marriage supporters to address legitimate reasons why someone might vote yes on 8.
Dbo
My point all along in this is that if you hold the bible up as inerrant and the direct word of God for all to live by then you run into to some severe problems. You do so especially when you reference Leviticus that has all sorts of rules and laws that no one that I know of but the Hassidic Jews live by. If you do not live by those same rules then aren’t you living in offense to God? Put down your bacon! That trip to Red Lobster is the direct ticket to hell! No more blended fabrics or shaving! How does Gad want you farm the land? Well it is right here in Leviticus. I mean really? If you hold up the rules against Homosexuals by quoting Leviticus then you have painted yourself into a corner by not following all the other parts of the book. I have no idea if you do or not, but I think I can make a pretty good guess.
The absolute word of God in Genesis also falls apart when you think about it terms of modern knowledge and science. If you choose to look at Adam and Eve as anything more than a myth then you have to throw away all the provable information on biology, geology, astrophysics, and well basically all modern scientific understanding. Everything that you enjoy is become some human came up with it, by understanding nature, and created it. Not God.
So I will pose to you my original challenge. Because we do not live in a theocracy, make a rational non-religious argument on why Homosexuals should not be allowed to marry. I make my pro gay marriage point by looking at the protection of property, children (if you do not think that gay couples have children you are deluding yourself) and liberty by two people who enter a contract and should have that contract arbitrated under the laws of the State should anything happen. Just like the State looks at a marriage between Straight people. Why should they be treated any different when religion is not part of the State?
Remember keep it non religious. I don’t think you can.
Dbo
It is also a complete myth that this is a Christian nation. Most of the Founding Fathers were Deists. I think that Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, Madison, Monroe, Ethan Allen and Thomas Paine would disagree with you. So like some biblical Scholarship (Jesus wasn’t the only one brought back from death, three guesses on who else was. I know and I am an atheist.) you need a good remedial course in U.S history.
#179
1. He is omniscient. He knows what you are going to do and the beauty is He lets you, free will. You are free to worship Him or not. In all of us there is an empty spot that we try to fill in all sorts of ways. In the end He is the only one that can make you whole.
2. Creation is no myth. It is reality. If you can honestly look at a baby and not be in awe of the complexity of forming a human being and realize that it is not by accident but God’s perfect design than I’m not sure what might convince you, other than an intervention by God Himself. Which He has been known to do on occasion.
3. If you look at earlier comments and read them I have explained that God does not create “birth defects, gay people, people with Downs Syndrome, MS and a host of other at birth maladies”. The first portion of #178 discusses where those things come from. The awesome thing is that God will heal people of those issues and is able.
4. Your quote from Corinthians still applies to all homosexual activity. Look at all the translations “effeminate” equals homosexuality. “Butch lesbians” are in the same category they are behaving contrary to how they were created.
4a. Leviticus 20:10, death for adultery was called for in OT times. Remember that I also stated that we live under grace and we can be forgiven of our sins. Read John 8:1-11 that will give you insight into Jesus’ heart. I am not saying to go and sin or break laws b/c you will be forgiven. We still have laws that we have to obey and if you don’t expect consequences but know that God will forgive. People are usually the ones who are unforgiving.
God doesn’t punish those He doesn’t like. We bring things one ourselves generally b/c of choices we make and also we live in a fallen world. As far as Jesus being hung on the cross, He chose to do that so that we could be saved (John 3:16-17). He bore all our sins so that we could have a personal relationship with Him. The awesome thing about it is that He did it for us even though we were sinners that we might be saved and have everlasting life in Heaven.
Here’s the deal, God defies logic. He takes the foolish things and uses them to confound the wise. I am not saying that logic is not important. God being based on logic and reason gives no place for faith. If I based my relationship with God on logic and reason then I am putting Go in a tidy box and saying God you can only do the things that I can think of with my brain. Fortunately God is bigger than that. The universe is expanding at light speed science tells us. God holds the universe in His hand. Logic and reason cannot explain that. I believe that God gave people the ideas for new innovations not for us to think how great we are but how great the creation is that He made.
Finally, I do believe people voted for Prop 8 based on their beliefs/religion. They see the bigger picture, the benefit to the public. Thankfully my state already has banned gay marriage so I did vote and it counted. As for God’s will, it will be done. The great thing is He works through people and I get to participate in making it happen as do countless others. We need only to be obedient to His Word and listen to what He says.
I will not be checking these comments any longer since I am having to restate things to the same people. If you want to know Jesus better read these books in the Bible (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). 1 Corinthians 13 is also a good place to find out what God thinks about love. It give insight into how we should live our lives. God Bless.
#183
1. If he is omniscient, then he already knows what choices you will make before you make them. In that scenario, free will is an illusion. You are simply making the choices he knew you would make well in advance of you making them.
2. The creation story in the Bible is a myth and it isn’t even original to the Jews nor is it the only creation story in the Bible. Your mind is truly clouded by religion if you believe it to be a factual representation of how creation occurred.
3. Did or did not your deity create everything? The Adam and Eve MYTH in no way explains maladies over which there is no choice unless you are suggesting that your deity included these sorts of non-choice maladies in his punishment for Adam and Eve’s mistake in which case your deity is truly monstrous.
4. Where exactly does effeminate equate with homosexuality or even not normal? I see nothing in your Bible which clarifies that. As far as I can tell. you are injecting that interpretation into the discussion with absolutely no foundation. Some straight men are effeminate. Some gay men are not. Sorry, but you do not get to reinterpret the meaning as you wish. If you are going to use the Bible as the only source of information, then you do not get expand on the meaning of words whenever you wish.
4a. Where exactly does Jesus say that death for adultery is no longer necessary? The simple answer is that he does not along with a host of other items in Leviticus which according to your interpretation means they are supposedly still in effect and yet generally ignored.
> God doesn’t punish those He doesn’t like.
Really.
Looking past the Egyptians for a moment, after Moses came down off the mountain and saw the people worshiping the golden calf, your deity then plagued the people (Exodus 32:35). Then there is:
Leviticus 14:34
Leviticus 20:2
Leviticus 21:16-18
Leviticus 25:44-46
Leviticus 26:15-39
Numbers 1:51
Numbers 11:1 – Burn people that complain. Nice!
I could go on. The stories about your deity’s punishments are legion.
Again, if you deity is omniscient, he already knows what choices you will make before you make them. In fact, he knows every choice you will make throughout your entire life before you are born. That is what is meant by omniscient. Thus, when he punishes you, he is punishing a being he created and that he knows will defy his will and yet he lets it continue. That is sadism.
> Here’s the deal, God defies logic
That is a cop out. Since you cannot reconcile the massive inconsistencies in the Bible nor the inconsistent nature of your deity, you are throwing your hands up and simply claiming “Well, he defies logic.” Nonsense. Past Christians used logic to try to explain the inconsistencies (Moore, Augustine etc). Logic is the cornerstone of communication and understanding. The problem is that your religion defies logic by design to keep the masses in the dark.
> Finally, I do believe
> people voted for Prop 8
> based on their beliefs/religion
On this we agree. No question that the religious swayed the vote out of fear and ignorance.
> They see the bigger picture
No. They saw the picture they wanted to see while trampling on the rights of the minority.
> We need only to be obedient
> to His Word and listen to
> what He says.
You are not seriously suggesting that your deity “told” you to vote against gay marriage? Where in the Bible does it command people to vote against measures contrary to your deity’s will? As far as I know, there is nothing about voting in the Bible.
Beyond refraining from voting, I suggest you take the time to actually read the Bible critically and not through rose colored glasses if you are able. Look for contradictions. Look for mistakes. Look for inconsistencies and vagueness. I think you find it far more error filled than you first imagined.
Dbo
i am sorry to see that you are throwing up your hands, taking your toys and going home. I am sad to see that you could not answer any of the questions posed to you in a critical fashion that involves just a little bit of thought put into instead of parroting the same things over and over. Maybe that is why you are frustrated, you do not have any answers that require thought. You choose instead to live on a world of black and white where you do not question the authority that has been taught to you. That is fine. That is your right to live your life as you will without restrictions. I only take umbrage when people like you try to impose their will based solely on what is their faith, without a critical eye on what that means for society at large. I wish you luck and hope that you can gather the strength to begin to question things. if you do start to question and still believe than that is great. Some of the greatest thinkers went through the same process (my favorite being C.S. Lewis) but do not surrender your brain to what others tell you. That is truly a sin against God.