Bloomberg.com: Worldwide — The public in general will see this as another Wall Street fiasco, but the street sees it differently. This guy was a god and apparently the father of “modern Wall Street.” Perhaps that’s the problem with Modern Wall Street.
Let’s just say that finding out that this guy was crooked would be like finding out that Mother Teresa was a hooker. It’s that bad.
Bernard Madoff confessed to employees this week that his investment advisory business was “a giant Ponzi scheme” that cost clients $50 billion before two FBI agents showed up yesterday morning at his Manhattan apartment.
“We’re here to find out if there’s an innocent explanation,” Agent Theodore Cacioppi told Madoff, who founded Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC and was once chairman of the Nasdaq Stock Market.
“There is no innocent explanation,” Madoff, 70, told the agents, saying he traded and lost money for institutional clients. He said he “paid investors with money that wasn’t there” and expected to go to jail. With that, agents arrested Madoff, according to an FBI complaint.
Advice: Suicide Watch.
re:#31,
Thanks bettyjoe, That IS what I meant, it’s important to be human and know yourself.
re:#34,
Bobo, You garden is a hobby, mine is more than that as we enjoy the vegetables year round that I grow (without lots of poisons sprayed on ‘em). Ditto for the grass fed beef we raise. The word “survivalist” is kinda scary with a “Mad Max” vibe. To your words. “Every individual should find their own response” I would add “, but this is what works for me.”
#56 – Bobbolina
I said: Aren’t “Wall Street” and “scam” a tautology?
‘dro said: </iJust like God & Logic
<b?Bobbolina said: yep, that pretty much covers the concept.
Skeedaddy, and a big Wall Street BOO-yah to you, Bobbolina! Even the Master Logician agrees that God and logic are tautological.
“a tautology is an unnecessary (and usually unintentional) repetition of meaning, using two different words that effectively say the same thing twice (often originally from different languages). It is often regarded as a fault of style and was defined by Fowler as “saying the same thing twice”.“. Inasmuch as “God” is from the Old English and “logic” is fromthe Old French, the two words would seem to fit even that criterion.
Huh. Saying “God and saying “logic” is “saying the same thing twice”.
Who’da thunk even Mista Bobbolina, the Madalyn Murray O’Hair of Pretzel Logic, would come to this considered conclusion?
Zounds.
Hmm. Let me try that again.
56 – Bobbolina
I said: Aren’t “Wall Street” and “scam” a tautology?
‘dro said: Just like God & Logic
Bobbolina said: yep, that pretty much covers the concept.
Skeedaddy, and a big Wall Street BOO-yah to you, Bobbolina! Even the Master Logician agrees that God and logic are tautological. w00t! Atheists pwned!
“a tautology is an unnecessary (and usually unintentional) repetition of meaning, using two different words that effectively say the same thing twice (often originally from different languages). It is often regarded as a fault of style and was defined by Fowler as “saying the same thing twice”.“.
Inasmuch as “God” is from the Old English and “logic” is fromthe Old French, the two words would seem to fit even that criterion.
Huh. Saying “God and saying “logic” is “saying the same thing twice”.
Who’da thunk even Mista Bobbolina, the Madalyn Murray O’Hair of Pretzel Logic, would come to this considered conclusion?
Zounds.
#42
Obviously, I disagree. You must use twisted logic (or illogic) to justify spirituality beyond its placebo effects. That is not to say that for many that placebo effect is without benefit, but it is still fantasy.
#44
As typical, you rear your habit of twisting the meaning of common words like religion to fit your own view of the world. Faith healers, cult leaders, witch doctors and others are all byproducts of choosing to accept ideas that have no tangible evidence to support them.
To a person, no atheist cares what any individual believes. If that were all to the discussion, it would stop there. However, the religious have a habit of imposing their beliefs on others including stamping it on coinage, silly prayers during public hearings and schools, preventing research into stem cells and such. It is when those beliefs affect policy that atheists have an issue.
So did Green’scam…
#59
You cannot be serious. You are blaming Bush for the financial crisis? Why don’t you blame him for hangnails while you are at it? The Bush Administration has mentioned on multiple occassions over the past eight years that a financial crisis might be coming if more regulation and oversight was not created. It was Congress (both Republican and Democrat) that failed to do anything about it. What about the Congressional oversight committee that was created after Enron? Where were they?
#64 – Thomas
>>To a person, no atheist cares what any
>>individual believes.
Take that up with Bobo. Or are you saying he’s not a card-carrying Atheist? Hmmm?
>>Faith healers, cult leaders, witch doctors
>>and others are all byproducts of choosing to
>>accept ideas that have no tangible evidence
>>to support them.
Just as Pol Pot, Josef Stalin, Mao, and other world-famous ethnic cleansers are all byproducts of accepting to choose the tenets of their Atheistic faith. And exterminating all those who don’t worship at the alter of Atheism. For further information about the unspeakable horrors perpetrated in the name of Atheism, see e.g. :
http://www.scholarscorner.com/apologia/deathtoll.html
>>However, the religious have a habit of
>>imposing their beliefs on others including
>>stamping it on coinage, silly prayers during
>>public hearings and schools, preventing
>>research into stem cells and such.
Well gosh. I’m religious, and I don’t promote any of those activities. Go figure.
#67–Mustard, stop being so tedious. You obviously think it is funny, but no, its just tedious. What your particular beliefs/actions are is pretty irrelevant in a general discussion unless you specifically are charged.
Current flap over posting the atheist sign in Washington State Courthouse demonstrates the issue Thomas fairly points out. Protestants post their Jeebesus rant ON STATE PROPERTY and then object when atheists do the same. Saying “God Exists” is recognizing the universal truth, but saying “God Does Not Exist” is hate speech, lacks decorum, and doesn’t recognize the christians rights to practice their religion without being harassed.
What a bunch of dildoes. Not happy to be able to practice their religion 24/7 as they please, they aren’t happy unless they can inflict their superstition on other people and they call it harassment to be disagreed with.
Yea, I know, you don’t live in Washington.
#68 – Bobo
>>What a bunch of dildoes
Are you the Anti-Quayle, Bobo? The word is spelled “dildos” – to wit:
http://www.babeland.com/dildos (NSFW)
>>Mustard, stop being so tedious. You obviously
>>think it is funny, but no, its just tedious.
Oh, I don’t think it’s funny, Bobo, I think it’s pathetic. The burning anger you exhibit at the mere existence of people who find strength, solace, and satisfaction in their spiritual beliefs is sad beyond words.
>>What your particular beliefs/actions are is
>>pretty irrelevant in a general discussion
Then why do you continue to rail against Jeebus (whom you seem unwilling or unable to stop calling “Jeebesus”)? My beliefs about Jesus seem to be a big prickly burr under your saddle, and you miss no opportunity to berate me on your supposedly superior beliefs.
>>Protestants post their Jeebesus rant ON STATE
>>PROPERTY
I’d be interested in seeing where Protestants have posted a “Jeebesus” rant on state property.
As to the Washington State Courthouse flap, I haven’t heard of it. Obviously you Atheists are more interested in what we Christians are up to than vice versa. I’ll take a look into it later, but I have a feeling that (provided there’s any fire under that smoke) it’s going to turn out to be some whacka-doodles just trying to stir up trouble. You know, like when Stalin killed all the believers? A fringe element, looking for their 15 minutes. Not representative of the majority of Christians.
#67
The number of deaths caused under the guise of religion by the religious is orders of magnitude more than Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao due specifically and solely to a person’s religious beliefs combined. It is a history that goes back almost to the foundations of civilization. The vast majority of deaths caused by these three men were because of perceived political threats or to further political agendas not because of pure religious hatred. I’m sure they did kill people because of religion but *that* number is substantially less than all the people they killed.
The link you provided is obviously from someone, like yourself, that really does not grok atheism. You have proven yourself incapable of grasping the concept of a lack of belief as compared to belief. The article you provided is more evidence of the same as shown in this early statement: “It is obvious that Atheism cannot be true”. Atheism is not a statement of truth any more than a disbelief in Santa Claus is a statement of truth. Atheism merely states that all claims as to the existence of a deity are lacking. No atheist would ever state that atheism alone would bring a more humane world. Do you believe walking under a ladder is bad luck? No? Has getting over that superstition made you any more or less humane? Similarly, just because some realizes that theist claims are nonsense will not make them a more humane person. Conversely, just because someone becomes religious *also* will not make them a more humane person.
# 70 Thomas said, “The number of deaths caused under the guise of religion by the religious is orders of magnitude more than Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao due specifically and solely to a person’s religious beliefs combined.”
Well, atheism is fairly new. The 1st hundred years when nations were ruled by that philosophy caused more deaths in a given time period than ANY religious inspired wars, etc.
#71
First, lack of belief is a universal concept. Second, atheism certainly goes back to at least the 5th century BCE Greece. That covers most of recorded history whereas superstition has been around, as far as we know, as long as man.
It is often hard to separate murder purely for religious reasons and murder in order to further political agendas. Often religion used as an excuse for political murders.
#70 – Thomas
>>The link you provided is obviously from
>>someone, like yourself, that really does not
>>grok atheism.
Just as your talking points from the Atheist Newsletter were prepared by someone that really does not grok “religion”.
To equate modern-day, run-of-the-mill Unitarian Universalists or UCC members with the raging hordes of the Inquisition or Ted Haggard or abortion doctor shooters, shows a failure to grok on the same order of magnitude as Bobo’s.
>>Similarly, just because some realizes that >>theist claims are nonsense…
Again, your dismissive and judgemental claims of superior knowledge put you in the ranks of intolerance as Bobo and the fringe theists you belittle. I have never criticized Atheists for their beliefs. But believe you me, I’ve taken a shitload of guff from them for mine. If you don’t believe what I believe, fine. STFU and leave me and my fellow believers alone.
If you have a beef with King Ferdinand of Aragon, or Ted Haggard, or the guys who shoot abortion doctors, or the pedophile priests, take it up with them. I hold no truck with them either.
#74
Having once been religious myself along with many people I know, I can safely say that I understand quite a bit about the religious mindset. It is not terribly complicated to understand why people become or remain religious. It has more to do with comfort and belonging than it does truth. The vast majority of people that consider themselves religious have never analyzed their beliefs critically and have no desire to do so. Ignorance is bliss as they say.
Modern faith healers, cult leaders, the Inquisition and abortion doctor shooters all have a common thread. They all have either accepted a tenet based on zero evidence or take advantage of those that have. So, while certainly not equal in their behavior, they are equal in the core flaw which drives their behavior.
I can be tolerant and sill dismiss theist claims as nonsense. Tolerant simply means I afford you your right (and fight for such right) to disagree and to have your own beliefs. It does not mean I must accept them or elevate them to any point of validity. I am tolerant of people that believe the world is 6000 years old but I do not have to accept their superstition as truth nor do I need to accept policy based on such nonsense.
I and all atheists to a person would love to leave theists alone in return for the same treatment. However, theists insist on imposing their beliefs on everyone. Silly phrases on money, prayers during court, swearing on Bibles, Ten Commandment placards in government buildings etc.
#54 Is it not? You mean to tell me that God & logic are not like the same thing? I thought you were telling before that they were like one. They worked so well along that they were like the same thing. Is it not? Please tell me I’m wrong.
#55 My bad. Thanks for clarifying.
#59 Usually, true believers like you are enterteining, but pinning the awful Bush admin to this Bozo makes as much sense as a hooker with a rosary.
#67 You really want to pair them with one of the most ardent Christ followers? That fella called Adolf, remember him? That he even went looking around for that funny dagger used to make sure Jebus was sent back to his dad? Or a little before his time? How ;bout the Crusades? The Inquisition? (look out sin).
politics and religion in the same thread..
-there was no way an exposion of thoughts
would not occur. -wonder what a “traditional chinaman” would have to add to this thread..
(weren’t they hindu at the start?)
-that’s all. i have little knowledge of ancient history or religion(s)
#53,57 – bobbo
-thank you for input. however, your not seeing the bigger picture. i’m trying to instigate curiosity
amongst the divided here. i have a knack for recognize patterns. -after spending several hours on the DOJ website, looking at the case files of many sates, i’ve found over a hundred cases of various mortgage and *funds* frauds.
what does it mean? -i’m not sure yet. but it appears as far back as 99 (that i can find) these scams have been proliferating.. i’m wondering if the all the phony (inflated) mortgages are connected to the rippoff scams, or are they one in the same. -just at opposite ends of the overall scam.
on the surface, it seems one cannot exist without the other. plus, a key factor that is needed in both, is a loan officer to sign off on the mortgages. -and they are (ultimately) part of a bank..
anyway..here..scroll the list of NJ 2008 cases..if your bored.. i’ll put it all together..if my PC doesnt die first..major power issues have been killing all the electronics in my house..UPS doesnt seem to help..
gotta run..
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/nj/press/2008releases.html
#74 – Thomas
>>Having once been religious myself along with
>>many people I know, I can safely say that I
>>understand quite a bit about the religious
>>mindset.
Having once been an Atheist myself along with many people I know, I can safely say that I understand quite a bit about the Atheist mindset.
I’ve been through the bold and saucy phase, being hip-and-happening, avante-garde, a little bit dangerous, existential intellectual blah blah blah. Blah. If you live long enough, you may come to realize that there’s more to existence than things you can punch up on your pocket calculator.
>>I and all atheists to a person would love to
>>leave theists alone in return for the same
>>treatment.
You keep mentioning this “to a person” nonsense. Did you share that tenet of Atheist belief with Pol Pot, Stalin, or Mao? YOU may be happy to leave theists alone in return for the same treatment, but that is certainly not a universal point of view among adherents to that faith. Trust me. I’ve taken enough bullshit from adolescent-acting blusterers quoting Marxist talking points like “the opiate of the masses” (or “Die Religion ist das Opium des Volkes”, for the truly egg-headed) to realize that. As though they’d actually read Marx’s “Contribution to Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right” to know what he was talking about, or the Marquis de Sade’s “Juliette”, to know where the saying came from. Bunch of blowhards, pissed that Mommy made them go to church, and acting out.
Of course, not every Atheist is that way, or like Mao Tse Tung. Just like not every believer (nor even every Christian, for that matter) is like Ted Haggard, King Ferdinand, or the abortion-shooting doctors.
>>However, theists insist on imposing their
>>beliefs on everyone.
Pffffttt. Now I KNOW you’ve been hitting the Christmas eggnog early. In fact, Bobo is pouting and stomping his foot because he doesn’t even know what my beliefs are, and has a hard time berating me and ridiculing me for them (you might want to tell him about your “Atheists…to a person” theory). I can’t think of a single “theist” I know personally who does that. I’ve heard that a kid I went to high school with is that way, but I steer clear of him (as do most people). I hear about some people like that in the news; of course I hear about the murdering Atheists there too. I just don’t know any personally.
>>So, while certainly [theists are] not equal
>>in their behavior, they are equal in the core
>>flaw which drives their behavior.
Does that same principle apply to Atheists? The murderers? The rapists? The ethnic cleansers? Or is it only the evil theists who are all alike because they purport to share one thing in common?
The bigger the lie, the more it will be believed.
It seems that Madoff Investment Securities LLC, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all meet that threshold for believability. I’ve heard that the returns can be simply incredible.
# 76 ” i have a knack for recognize patterns. -after spending several hours on the DOJ website, looking at the case files of many sates, i’ve found over a hundred cases of various mortgage and *funds* frauds.”
LOL, This pattern is pretty obvious, just look around, but go for it.
You have a good idea though. It is possible to get a unstructured web mining tool and point it at these urls and query the results.
No mention yet on this discussion about Madoff’s former NASDAQ tenure (I mean, aside from the head note).