“Agree or disagree, like or dislike, at least we have back in the White House someone who is smarter than a fifth grader. Refreshing!”
How long do we have to hear this crap? JCD gets a bunch of grief for his Obama picture earlier, but we still have to read these stupid comments.
Great but a bit too analytical for the majority of dumb Americans. Bush has so dumbed down the process that it was a bit shocking to get so much disclosure and transparency but I liked it.
The one dumb conservative news guy asking about Alex Rodriguez? Oh brother. Obama should have snapped back and said ” WTF are you talking about? Who gives a shot?”.
Obama really hit home that the republicans in Congress are just speed bumps to progress. Still sore on losing the elections and being emasculated. Their idea to do NOTHING is exactly not surprising. They have lots of experience doing nothing.
Articulate, yes. Any new data? The only new thing I heard was his misunderstanding of the Japanese economy and the actions that were taken by the gov’t there…
paddy-o,
please explain Obama’s errors about the Japanese economy.
It is very nice to have an adult in the oval office.
Paddy-o, you get a lot of shit from people here, but I will give you one more chance to demontrate you are more than a disingenuous ass. Please explain exactly what you disliked about Obama’s positions and policies, and I will be more than happy to discuss them with you.
Frankly, I loved every second of the conference. Long-winded to me means talking a lot withoug saying anything. Obama’s answers were extremely well thought out and completely explained with a minimum of bullshit. I enjoyed watching him answer the press questions with sincerity and depth while looking at the person who asked the questions. What a breath of fresh air.
I can predict with some certainty the press conference – along with any other move towards progress and transparency in government – will meet with the usual vocal minority of losers who trudged down the path to ignominy behind McCain a few months back.
The hilarious part is idiots who still stand around and declaim that the New Deal is (was) never going to work. Birdbrains who read no history or economics – fully confident hard times will never affect them and screw everyone else.
I sincerely hope they retain control of the Republican Party. They deserve each other.
#2 Now, the President appearing on TV has an effect on population education. Talk about blaming your faults on others.
If anyting Oprah, talk shows, reality tv and soap operas have more influence on the education of the populus than how a president addresses on TV. They’re all a reflection of their education, not the excess or lack of it.
But perhaps I’m too old fashioned or am able to discern whom to assign responsabilities for things that happen to me…or others.
US asks: How long do we have to hear this crap?
Hopefully we’ll keep hearing “that crap” until Palin runs again, lest the R’s forget what you get with stupid ideologues who happen to be spawn of former presidents.
He explained the principle of Fractional Banking without too much problem, and IMHO made it understandable for a lot more people.
He could have gone a bit further, (one or two sentences to expand upon) however it was the first time I have heard a POLITICIAN explain it sensibly.
We seem to have forgotten what it is like to have to think and comprehend when the President speaks.
I will say, I only wanted to ’spot the highlights” and ended up watching the whole damn thing.
We are in for rough times ahead. Hail Socialism!
As I stated before, this “Stimulus Package” is just an entitlement program. It will ruin the economy because it offers no long-term solution but burdens with enormous long-term debt.
Who’s going to pay for this? The poor? Please!!
So how is this Porkimus Maximus program going to generate new, internationally competitive jobs or businesses?
This should be called the “Temporary Entitlement – Long Term Strangulation Program”.
#5 bartholo. Ignorance is bliss, as you have proven.
“UCLA economists Harold L. Cole and Lee E. Ohanian are among those who believe the New Deal caused the Depression to persist longer than it would otherwise have, concluding in a study that the “New Deal labor and industrial policies did not lift the economy out of the Depression as President Roosevelt and his economic planners had hoped,” but that the “New Deal policies are an important contributing factor to the persistence of the Great Depression.” They claim that the New Deal “cartelization policies are a key factor behind the weak recovery.” They say that the “abandonment of these policies coincided with the strong economic recovery of the 1940s.” Cole and Ohanian claimed that FDR’s policies prolonged the Depression by 7 years.”
“Lowell E. Gallaway and Richard K. Vedder argue that the “Great Depression was very significantly prolonged in both its duration and its magnitude by the impact of New Deal programs.” They suggest that without Social Security, work relief, unemployment insurance, mandatory minimum wages, and without special government-granted privileges for labor unions, business would have hired more workers and the unemployment rate during the New Deal years would have been 6.7% instead of 17.2%.”
Welcome to New Deal II.
I counted 8 times he talked around the question and didn’t answer the question. Pretty much your average political BS.
I’m not saying he is going to be a bad President but he isn’t the second coming and he is going to get away with a lot of crap because the press is way too busy having Obamagasms.
Absolutely. I completely agree. Refreshing because he took time to trails of thought as well as deliberation and built the argument. Intelligent reasoning simply. Agree or disagree, it is good to hear reflection at work compared to the previous loose cannon. And – I blieve the guy, he really means what he say. However, he is in for a tough ride, believing old remedies will work now. It won’t. He has inherited lousy economic policies from 1971 – the snowplow has built up an avalanche and it is all coming down. The sooner he realize he needs to fix what is wrong, the better for us all. Lipstick on a pig is not enough. Your latest conversation with Horowitz gave hints of proof of that. In the meanwhile the rest of us are just watching in awe and amazement, not believing that it all coming down. And this will be cruel. In addition, all the paper money will make Zimbabwe look like a Swiss economy.
I hope for the sake of us all that he can make a difference, with necessary CHANGE though I really don’t see how with the politics he is heralding. Someone should bless us; and we should brace for impact………..
10,
Eight should be easy to list here. Let’s her the questions he talked around. Or are you just trolling?
It would be nice if he would act more like a Democrat and less like a Republican. Compromising with the people that made this mess is like compromising with how many of us will be left homeless and without work. Why doesn’t he say it like it is, if you don’t vote for this the people will vote you out! Then when the next elections happen, make sure all the voters are educated on why they are where they are. All I see so far is a half and half compromising wimp.
# 4 smartalix said, “please explain Obama’s errors about the Japanese economy.”
Look up the Japanese governmental actions to “stimulate” the Japanese economy in the 90’s. Look at the actual result, listen again to what Omama said about it.
Is that clear enough for you?
Fine, he SOUNDS smarter than a fifth grader. But he is pushing ideas that anyone who has studied history know are completely crazy. Keynesian economics as practiced by Herbert Hoover and FDR CAUSED the great depression. Now we have a repeat in the form of Bush and Obama.
This government needs to cut it’s debt, stop printing money and devaluing our dollar and follow the constitution as far as the limits of federal government jurisdiction.
Go look up Glen Becks video on the money supply and how it has skyrocketed in the past year. Scary for our future.
#14, Cow-Patty,
Are you making another claim you can’t back up? You look it up. Obama was quite correct in his assessment.
#9, Ah Yea,
blah blah blah,
I don’t see any links or citations to back up your “quote”.
You get what you pay for
Buyer beware
The pattern was well in place with Obama
A political animal who could speak well and ignore any of the shortcomings of anyone who could help him in his quests
All thought that he was centrist who would come to his senses when elected
Guess not
Its a political agenda of the leftists that takes charge – no matter what the inevitable cost or costs
Look to Canada as a good example of what is to come
It was all there to begin with plain as mud to begin with
Let’s help smartalix a bit.
‘Conservative critics like the Wall Street Journal’s editorial board have been using Japan’s experience as evidence to be wary of stimulus packages altogether. In an editorial last month entitled “Barack Obama-san,” the Journal listed all of Japan’s stimulus attempts, and then intoned: “Not to spoil the party, but [stimulus spending] is not a new idea…How do you say ‘good luck’ in Japanese?”‘
“Another lesson: Don’t forget that the main problem in the United States right now lies with the financial sector. And you can’t necessarily spend your way out of that.
‘If you haven’t fixed the core problem that started it all, which is the real cleaning up of balance sheets in the financial industry, it’s gonna get you nowhere,” says Carmen Reinhart, professor of economics at the University of Maryland.
This means Obama needs to maintain focus on the Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP, even as he launches an ambitious stimulus package. “As long as the finance industry is mired in this overhang of bad debt, we’re not going to get normal lending,” says Reinhart. “And if you don’t have normal lending, many segments of the economy are paralyzed.”‘
http://tinyurl.com/money-cnn-com
Obama’s plan was written by Nance Pelosi and Harry Reid, so what do you expect?
Just because Obama is a great presenter with his heart and intentions in the right place, does that automatically make what he says and does right and good?
The only problem with Obama’s plan is that it addresses symptoms and not the situation that caused the symptoms.
I don’t blame him as he has no experience as an executive and/or data analysis. Having a law degree is great for writing legislation that will stand up but has nothing to do with problem solving.
#19, Ah Yea,
Still don’t have a plan? Still don’t understand what Japan did? Still prefer the policies that failed us so miserably over the last eight years?
paddy, Ah_yeah may not be highly opinoinated, but at least he explains his positions. You just blather a lot.
So, Ah_yeah. I read the criticisms, and note that they are all conservative voices. Frankly, the conservatives had their shoit with the economy, and I agree with the President that we must re-invigorate the economy, and many economists agree that infrastructure spending does just that.
You both have a point, but its not the whole picture. Fixing the system is a long term complicated prospect. TARP and the stimulus is the 1st step. The lesson to be learned from 90’s Japan was 2 fold – Doing nothing and riding it out doenst work. Throwing money at the problem doesn’t work by itself without reform of the system. This is step one to stabilize the problem short term.
All…
A great visual guide to the debt problem… Espeically the little tiny “injection” at the end…
http://guardian.co.uk/business/dan-roberts-on-business-blog/interactive/2009/jan/29/financial-pyramid
[Please drop the WWW from URLs as WordPress doesn't display it properly... plus it's unnecessary. - ed.]
Throwing money at the problem doesn’t work by itself without reform of the system.
# 22 smartalix said, “paddy, Ah_yeah may not be highly opinoinated, but at least he explains his positions.”
That’s because Ah_yeah is very patient with those who lack any education. I assume in my posts that readers have at least a 6th grade education so I don’t explain the obvious nor link commonly known data.
Example: Politician A says, “A sphere has 8 plane surfaces.” I may post something like, “Can you believe how stupid Politician A is?”
Now, your reply to that post would probably be: “Explain why you think Politician A is stupid and where are your links to why his statement is stupid.”
Need I say more?
#26, Cow-Paddy,
Need I say more?
Yes. Simply because you like to invent shit. Your reputation is well known. And it ain’t purdy.
Example: Politician A says, “A sphere has 8 plane surfaces.” I may post something like, “Can you believe how stupid Politician A is?”
–snip—
Need I say more?
Please don’t, because what you’ve done is just described the classic troll.
Re: Japan
Franklin D. Roosevelt was elected President of the United States in 1932 with the mandate to get the country of the Depression. In the end, his more effective actions were the same ones Japan needs to take — namely rehabilitation of the banking system and devaluation of the currency.
Ben Bernake, 1995
DEVALUATION OF THE CURRENCY?!?!?!
This is the same guy who is advising Obama. We are in deep sh*t.
Anybody on this board who thinks that devaluing the currency is a good thing is insane.
Here is a short but accurate picture of Japan’s problems:
Conclusion for those who don’t know how to click:
What Can We Learn from Japanese Crisis?
* Cutting interest rates and higher government spending are not guaranteed to kick start an economy if structural problems remain.
* Asset booms and busts can be very destabilizing. But, people and governments tend to ignore them. It is easy to convince ourselves in our case it is not a bubble.
* Government support for ailing firms often only prolongs the agony.
Alright, the effen “spam” filter ate my post. Let’s break it into pieces.
*
Michael Darby exposed the wing nut theory that the New Deal did not help America out of the depression.
If the New Deal actually extended the Great Depression, we might wonder, why was Roosevelt reelected three times?
http://tinyurl.com/ct5dts
Marshal Auerback wrote:
The government hired about 60 per cent of the unemployed in public works and conservation projects that planted a billion trees, saved the whooping crane, modernized rural America, and built such diverse projects as the Cathedral of Learning in Pittsburgh, the Montana state capitol, much of the Chicago lakefront, New York’s Lincoln Tunnel and Triborough Bridge complex, the Tennessee Valley Authority and the aircraft carriers Enterprise and Yorktown.
It also built or renovated 2,500 hospitals, 45,000 schools, 13,000 parks and playgrounds, 7,800 bridges, 700,000 miles of roads, and a thousand airfields. And it employed 50,000 teachers, rebuilt the country’s entire rural school system, and hired 3,000 writers, musicians, sculptors and painters, including Willem de Kooning and Jackson Pollock.
Then there is Paul Krugman, winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
Krugman said in an interview with ABC News. “Government spending is the only surefire way to create employment.”
…
When asked what he would spend the money on, Krugman said it’s not up to him to name specific projects but that they should quickly create jobs and create a lasting improvement in the economy.
“I’ve been impressed with people who are talking about upgrading the rail system for freight,” Krugman said. “Freight rail is a success which is hindered by small but extreme bottlenecks. So that’s an example of a kind of project that would spend money but also provide a lot of long-term benefits to the economy.
# 28 Olo Baggins of Bywater said, “Please don’t, because what you’ve done is just described the classic troll.”
Which is why I try not to respond to question from smartalix.
31, 31,
Naturally, all these Milton Freedman adherents don’t see the value of government except as a means to eliminate civilisation and Pinochet tried to do in Chilean under the “Chicago Boys”. Alan Greenspan admits that his methodology of loosening credit “broke” and that he was wrong.
Keynes was always right though… Unfortunately, Keynes makes slow wealth, but healthy socities. Case in point, every single instance of your examples would never be undertaken by a for-profit enterprise since the return on investment would be way too long. Just look at sports stadiums. If the taxpayers don’t build the stadium, the owners just pack up and leave.
Dallas said “Obama really hit home that the republicans in Congress are just speed bumps to progress.”
Even speed bumps serve a purpose. They force you to slow down and look around. Sometimes thats all it takes to keep from doing something really dangerious or stupid…
#22: Here are some thoughts about “infrastructure neglect” (try Googling the phrase, it’s not just bridges):
Infrastructure, meaning things that government normally takes care of such as roads, sewer systems, bridges, levees (Katrina and severe flooding come to mind), government buildings, and similar things, have been woefully neglected for about 30 years. With the exception of toll roads and bridges, infrastructure needs work (see the I-35 bridge collapse in MN). This neglect is because new infrastructure is “flashier” than repairing the older stuff.
Repairing or replacing infrastructure is a good idea, as it puts people to work and extends the life of these structures. Good long term maintenance plans after the structures are modernized would help as well.
#33, Named,
Good points.
If the taxpayers don’t build the stadium, the owners just pack up and leave.
Aahh, the power of addictions.
#33, Case in point, every single instance of your examples would never be undertaken by a for-profit enterprise since the return on investment would be way too long. Just look at sports stadiums. If the taxpayers don’t build the stadium, the owners just pack up and leave.
And your point is? If I knew the government would build me a stadium if I said I wouldn’t, you can bet I would say that.
#29, Loser,
From your link.
What Can We Learn from Japanese Crisis?
* Cutting interest rates and higher government spending are not guaranteed to kickstart an economy if structural problems remain.
Interesting. So it would appear that Obama investing in infrastructure is the correct move.
However, in my humble opinion, cutting interest rates and increasing government spending will not necessarily ever kickstart an economy if the basic tenets of the financial engine are broken. In our case, there is so much money tied up in bad debt and fraud and those running the financial sector are only thinking of themselves instead of the good of the country. We need to fix that engine.
All of our business philosophy has to stop thinking about “maximum return to the shareholder” and start thinking about what we will be making tomorrow.
37,
My point is this:
Private enterprise puts their money into instant gratification projects with high returns and little to no risk. Example… BOA got billions in taxbucks and what did they do? They bought a toll-road in Spain. They didn’t give the money to risky entrepreneurs in the US of A.
So, when the economy failed because of private enterprise, government has to step in and give the common person a chance to make solid money to put back into the economy.
Amazing how quickly Obama caved and changed ‘Hope and Change’ to ‘Fear and Loathing’
Check out the striking Presidential leadership differences between FDR and BHO.
#38, Poison Twin,
Interesting. So it would appear that Obama investing in infrastructure is the correct move.
They weren’t talking hardware. They were talking the structure of the financial system.
All of our business philosophy has to stop thinking about “maximum return to the shareholder” and start thinking about what we will be making tomorrow.
I agree with you to a certain extent.
Government support for ailing firms often only prolongs the agony.
Part of your before-mentioned thinking should be to let the weak die off or be absorbed.
#20… Much like your modern American medical system! Aren’t we all accustomed to getting some drugs to mask the symptoms yet not fix the underlying problem???
In a magical twist of irony today, CNN is running a story on how illegal immigrants claim that they can’t even make it in the US any longer.
#39,
So, when the economy failed because of private enterprise, government has to step in and give the common person a chance to make solid money to put back into the economy.
The economy failed because the Fed kept the interest rates low while the federal government pushed banks to give out risky loans.
The only way to make solid money is to produce something.
Too many big words. My head hurts.
Boy, what a great economic recovery plan. Don’t y’all agree?
Regarding the 5th grader comment, Do you know that George Bush is at 90-95th percentile in intelligence? His SAT score was 1200, equivalent to about 1280(out of 1600) today.
Then again, I guess you consider 90% of the public to be below average.
Looks like Obama admitted Biden is a blathering idiot.
47,
Bush isn’t stupid, he just doesn’t care enough to learn. (Although I’d love to see a link to his SAT scores, I got a 1270 myself back in ‘80.)
As for his public speaking, Obama speaks at a level THREE GRADES higher than Bush. Someone did the analysis, and you can, too!
This country is far better off with Bush gone, and the GOP is just a bunch of one-trick (cut taxes) ponies who are too stupid to learn new ones.
Well, it passed the senate and the Dow drops more than 350 pts. So much for confidence.
Here’s an interesting snippet from the WSJ concerning this quarter’s stim pack:
The centerpiece of their plan is $1.1 billion of the $825 billion stimulus package for studies to compare different drugs and devices to “save money and lives.” Report language accompanying the House stimulus bill says that “more expensive” medical products “will no longer be prescribed.” The House bill also suggests that the new research should be used to create “guidelines” to direct doctors’ treatment of difficult, high-cost medical problems….
…Mr. Daschle argues that the only way to reduce spending is by allocating medical products based on “cost effectiveness.”…
Private companies should take the lead in conducting these studies. Yet they have little incentive to do so, since the Food and Drug Administration prevents firms from publicizing most of their findings, even to groups that pay for health care. The FDA should create a safe harbor for claims that medical companies make to expert purchasers (including Medicare) based on the results of comparative studies….
Bills should be no longer than 2 paragraphs. 600 pages is too much room to hide crap like this.
# 44 LibertyLover said, “The only way to make solid money is to produce something.”
And violation of the concept you stated is the root cause of 99.99% of our economic problems. Wonder why Obama, with his Harvard Law degree, doesn’t realize this?
seemed to me as soon as the scripted speech was off the teleprompter, he was all thumbs.
the ONLY difference, between the obama and bush administrations is that obama’s will be “open and transparent” about robbing the country and tax payers blind.
like my father used to say.. “hide it in plain sight”
-nice to see they added provisions in the bill for the coming food and water shortages this fall and summer. :s
-s
i’m going over the senate version now..
hey can anyone point/show me an *easy way* to
a consolidated source of where all the Bills/Acts are?
the senate bill references many other bills/acts and its making it difficult to get a grasp what is being described w/out constantly hunting down references…
is there a place (other than govtrac) that has the senate bill and all the other bills it makes reference to in one spot or download?
thanks,
-s
( i cant possibly see how all those who voted
on this bill had time to go over and read it.
the house version was 400+ pages, the senate looks to be 700+ -not including referenced bills/acts)
to
#47, Lyin’ Mike,
Let me understand this. Are you saying that someone who runs several companies into the ground, runs a professional baseball team into the ground, runs two wars into the ground and then nearly ruins a whole effen country is really just a smart guy?
The way you put it we might just be better off with a Fifth Grader.
Cow-Patty,
# 44 LibertyLover said, “The only way to make solid money is to produce something.”
And violation of the concept you stated is the root cause of 99.99% of our economic problems. Wonder why Obama, with his Harvard Law degree, doesn’t realize this?
Maybe because he is smarter than you and Loser.
Adam Smith, in his seminal work The Wealth of Nations, described wealth as “the annual produce of the land and labour of the society”. This “produce” is, at its simplest, that which satisfies human needs and wants of utility. In popular usage, wealth can be described as an abundance of items of economic value, or the state of controlling or possessing such items, usually in the form of money, real estate and personal property.
I’m sure glad they don’t have Leibertarians and poopcycle salesmen running the Treasury. we would remain in the mess we are in for ages.
2 Comments regarding Bush’s intelligence:
1. Intelligence is just a tool. Like a dump truck. If you use your dump truck to carry horseshit from place to place, it doesn’t matter much how big it is.
2. Intelligence correlates to empathy. In such regard, whatever Bush’s dump truck is full of, and however large it is, and where ever its is going, the correlation is violated in Bush’s case.
That happens with the rich and the LIEBERTARIANS quite often.
Haha, I think everyone should now just post their SAT scores and whoever has the highest wins the argument.
I’m with whoever said “Hope” has switched to “Fear”. What a way to drive the economy – have the president tell us we’re screwed!
“We” voted for change
Another word for “Chsnge” is
REVOLUTION
Wow. I decided to read these posts with the hope that the majority of the intelligent people who read John’s blog would be supportive of a young, smart, progressive President. What a shame to see so many negative, closed-minded people. There isn’t much “Hope” for this country if even half of our people have this sort of negativity. Maybe because John has the persona of the Cranky Geek he tends to attract people who look for bad in everything or like to pick things apart.
Please don’t waste time replying to this post for my benefit. I can’t bring myself to look at these comments again, it just makes me lose faith in America. I may stop listening to John because obviously I don’t share much in common with his audience.
Well maybe red state hillbillies didn’t listen to Obama, but at least the blue staters and the liberal elite press actually bothered to.
That means thoughtful analysis and discussion with a healthy dose of debate amongst the smarter of us.
Meanwhile at Fox News: Cover yer ears martha! Its words, big words! Mean old Black man make me feel stoopid! must not listen!
#59
One can be loyal to one’s country and still disagree and critique its leaders. So some people don’t like Obama or don’t like his policies. That’s life in the big game. So where you see a young, smart and progressive President I see a smooth, well-spoken socialist (mostly, he did begin to act petulantly when confronted by reporters about the bailout plan).
So no, all of the name calling and negativity here won’t change the world until all the nerds here get out of their mother’s basement and act…but they won’t…
So now you say he ruined the Texas Rangers too?
They were in first place when he left.
Obama looked scared and he conveyed fear. Not presidential, not calming. As much as anything, economics is psychology and confidence. The President needs to reassure and he did not. And Geithner today looked too young and had no plan. It is no wonder that the market tanked today. These guys better get up to speed soon.
#58 He said change, you got change. He didn’t specify towards what…but change is.
#59 Please, show me the positive outlook not from the package itself, but the market’s reaction to it. LEt us see you rationalize it.
And, send us a big “hello” once you get started on your temp bridge-building job.
That Republican plan didn’t work. How about this Recovery Plan
Don’t you love blind demagogues that believe anyone with a critical posture on their god’s policies has to be a repugblican?
I don’t know if they’re that dumb because they saw too many Bush’s addresses or too many Obama’s.
…or both!
Nah, I think is your love for fidel. Tell me, have they done that hemorroidal surgery Michael Moore was helping you get done on the island?
#55, Poison Twin,
Adam Smith, in his seminal work The Wealth of Nations, described wealth as “the annual produce of the land and labour of the society”. This “produce” is, at its simplest, that which satisfies human needs and wants of utility. In popular usage, wealth can be described as an abundance of items of economic value, or the state of controlling or possessing such items, usually in the form of money, real estate and personal property.
Thanks for proving my point. Notice that “wealth [is possessing] money”. You can’t have solid money by printing it to pay workers on make-do jobs because they aren’t producing anything.
[Non sequitur begins]
I’m sure glad they don’t have Leibertarians and poopcycle salesmen running the Treasury. we would remain in the mess we are in for ages.
[Non sequitur ends]
Let me pull a Paddy-O and help you out some:
I sure wish we had Libertarians running the Treasury. We wouldn’t be in the mess we are in now.
There. Fixed it for you.
Loser,
Maybe I should mention you’ve lost it.
Money is not the only form of wealth. Maybe to Leibertarians, but not Americans. Yet your claim is that the only way to make “solid money” is to produce something. You are wrong on both the philosophical level as well as the practical level.
Many people make money by lending it out to others for a rate of return or portion of the profits. They don’t produce anything, but they make money. Others make money by buying something and selling for a higher price. They don’t produce anything but they make money. Others will do something for money, serve food, drive a truck, teach, clean hospitals. Nope, they don’t produce anything either.
*
Then there is the problem that solid money is the only form that may be produced. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
Solid money is either coinage or paper money. They may be readily exchanged for goods, services, or debts. BUT, your solid money makes up only a very small percentage of the wealth in this country.
Most of America’s wealth comes from intrinsic values. Oil in the ground can not be readily used or even extracted, yet it does have a value. The same with other commodities, gold, hydro power, the Mississippi River, and expensive paintings in the National Gallery. None of these may be deposited in a bank or can be converted into money without a process but they still have value which translates to wealth. None of them were “produced”.
You will need to do better if you think Leibertarian Economics could work.
#74, Poison Twin,
Maybe I should mention you’ve lost it.
We’ve all lost.
Money is not the only form of wealth.
Agreed.
Many people make money by lending it out to others for a rate of return or portion of the profits.
Correct. However, that interest has to be backed by something produced. If not, we end up with what we have today.
Interest paid on speculation with nothing to back it is insane.
Our money supply should be tightly tied to our GDP.
Others make money by buying something and selling for a higher price. They don’t produce anything but they make money.
I agree. However, see my note above concerning speculation. You can only do that so long before the whole system collapses.
Others will do something for money, serve food, drive a truck, teach, clean hospitals. Nope, they don’t produce anything either.
Serving food it a form of production. It is the end result of the production of the food.
Driving a truck is a form of production. It is the end result of the goods produced and getting them to market.
Cleaning hospitals is a form of production.
It is the end result of selling medicines, etc.
All of your examples show a classic misunderstanding of the economic system. You can produce all you want, but you still have to sell it. The act of selling is part of the cost of the goods.
Teaching is not production but a necessary act to ensure the next generation knows how to produce. I guess, technically, you could roll the cost of teaching into the overall cost of all good produces because you have to pay taxes which ultimately increases the overhead of producers.
Then there is the problem that solid money is the only form that may be produced. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
Solid money is either coinage or paper money. They may be readily exchanged for goods, services, or debts. BUT, your solid money makes up only a very small percentage of the wealth in this country.
Quit taking things so literally. By “solid” I don’t mean something heavy in your hand.
Most of America’s wealth comes from intrinsic values. Oil in the ground can not be readily used or even extracted, yet it does have a value. The same with other commodities, gold, hydro power, the Mississippi River, and expensive paintings in the National Gallery. None of these may be deposited in a bank or can be converted into money without a process but they still have value which translates to wealth. None of them were “produced”.
And all of this has to do with producing solid money how?
You are confusing wealth with money. I never said that money is the only form of wealth. I said the possession of money is wealth by paraphrasing what you posted.
#75, Loser,
All of your examples show a classic misunderstanding of the economic system. You can produce all you want, but you still have to sell it. The act of selling is part of the cost of the goods.
You are wrong again and again. You told us that only production can make sold money. Money is only a representation of value. It is, however, an easy and consistent way to measure wealth and value. Make all the autos you want, until they sell they aren’t anything. The act of selling is not production nor is it always related. Real Estate and god are two areas that come to mind.
Economics refer to “Goods and Services Produced” to determine national value. The act of selling a vacant piece of land is just as important as producing the lumber that will be built on that land. For the Realtor though, he produced nothing.
The waitress is a service person. She did not produce anything. The same with the truck driver, teacher, or hospital cleaner. Neither transportation, education, nor health services produce anything. They are services. You can even add Bank Teller to that short list.
You are confusing wealth with money. I never said that money is the only form of wealth. I said the possession of money is wealth by paraphrasing what you posted.
In #44 you wrote
The only way to make solid money is to produce something.
Was that taken out of context?
Then in #73, you wrote
Thanks for proving my point. Notice that “wealth [is possessing] money”. You can’t have solid money by printing it to pay workers on make-do jobs because they aren’t producing anything.
I did not prove your point because it is wrong. Money is not created only through producing goods. Money is just wealth converted into a numerical index, usually accompanied as or expressed in, the form of currency.
If my house is worth $200,000, that doesn’t mean I could take it to the bank and trade it for a nice stack of bills. But it is still worth that much. To get that I would need to convert it through the sale of the house to a willing buyer that has that much money. But my house is still valued at $200,000 as far as my estate is concerned whether there is a willing buyer on the doorstep or not.
If the government builds a park, that park has value that is easily expressed in dollars. If they upgrade a building to make it more energy efficient, that work has value. If they plant trees for wind breaks etc. there will be value added. It doesn’t matter that the money is borrowed or not, something of value has been done and it can be numerated or expressed in dollars.
#76, Poison Twin,
The only way to make solid money is to produce something.
Was that taken out of context?
Kinda. I was talking about overall. Sure, you can increase your personal stash of cash through appreciation and the like, but ultimately the money to pay you for your increased value home has to come from somewhere.
Where does that money come from? It has to come from production. When 2/3 of your GDP is services, it all collapses because the money is not solid.
I stand by my statement. If you don’t believe it to be true, just look at what caused the mess we are in. Jobs going overseas, people “making money” instead of earning it through the use of speculation, etc. This country doesn’t produce anything but service jobs. The economy isn’t sound because the money isn’t sound.
Let’s talk about these in particular because they are good examples what the current administration is trying to accomplish.
If the government builds a park, that park has value that is easily expressed in dollars.
Agreed. However, what does it produce later on? Entry fees? Where do the people who make the money to pay the entry fees get that money from? They have to produce something, somewhere down the line. Otherwise, the government has a really nice looking park that no one visits because they can’t afford the entry fees.
If they upgrade a building to make it more energy efficient, that work has value.
And how do you do that? You buy something that is produced — windows, more efficient compressors, etc. Something was produced to do that.
And then you have to ask yourself how the work was actually paid for? Somebody has to produce something to pay for the contractors and the materials. Otherwise, you have any empty, energy inefficient building.
If they plant trees for wind breaks etc. there will be value added.
Somebody has to spend the time producing the trees in the first place. This goes back to my original statement about the selling (in this the case, including the installation of) the trees. It is part of the process.
It doesn’t matter that the money is borrowed or not, something of value has been done and it can be numerated or expressed in dollars.
Unless it is due to production of something, somewhere down the line, it is not sound, though.
Before you can start talking about sound money, you have start talking about production. With the Fed pumping out trillions of dollars with no production to back it up, eventually, those dollars will be worth less and less as they depreciate in value. That $200,000 you made from selling your home yesterday may only get you $50,000 in goods tomorrow. If you base wealth on the pure numerical values in cash you have on hand, then sure, you are correct. But you have to look at what that money gets you — less and less because the money isn’t sound.
That being said, I’ll revise, and admit that in my haste, I didn’t put my exact thoughts in this blog:
“part of wealth [is possessing] sound money”
Loser,
You are still wrong. Money is only one form of wealth. Other forms are equally valid expressions of wealth. Wealth, and money, may be accrued any of several ways. Production is just one and even then, not always a given.
Learn some basic economics. It has been several years since I sat in an Economics class but geeze, it is so easy to see you are on some bent theory that doesn’t hold water.
#78, Poison Twin
Money is only one form of wealth.
We agree on that.
What I am saying is that money (not wealth) must be backed by something substantial such as production.
You seem to be confusing the two.
You seem to be confusing the two.
Nope. You are the one confused. You wrote
The only way to make solid money is to produce something.
Now you have changed your mind and are now writing
What I am saying is that money (not wealth) must be backed by something substantial such as production.
You are all backwards. Money is just something that has a value attached. Other than that it is just a piece of paper or metal. But the Government has put its value behind what is circulated as money.
Wealth, and I’m repeating myself, is the value of everything. Oil in the ground, my house, a piece of the desert, a park, an automobile -sold or unsold, a bar of gold, a $10 bill, or that check with my name on it for $1,000,000 you are sending my way. 
Yes, American wealth is partly backed by the production capabilities of the US. It is also backed, and probably much more so, by the resource potential of this land.
There is no wealth created by the service sector. That is a mere exchange of money from one hand to another. But Production creates WEALTH not money. That wealth is only expressed as money. That auto may be sold at the sticker price or for substantially less, depending upon how bad the customer wants it and the dealer needs to part with it.
Money is just something that has made the barter system a whole lot easier.
The true believers voted for “hope and change”
‘Change’ apparently means stuffing the cabinet, staff and justice department with Clinton retreads and lobbyists.
‘Hope’? Primarily, the press conference was the use of FEAR to coerce people to accept a poorly conceived plan (to spend tomorrows income) that bypassed all of the usual processes (committee hearings anyone?) to account for the budgeting and thorough analysis of said plan, which is one giant tower of special interest provisions. The congressional budget office has stated that very little of this money would have any impact on the economy for 18-24 months.
http://tinyurl.com/ckh3xg
http://tinyurl.com/da2m7u
Why is it that all of our money must be funnelled through D.C. first, so that the idiots running the place can pretend they know how to control the economy? Why not give us all a tax break and let the economy be run by the people, who will spend or save their money as they see fit, with more immediate results. I believe that the collective intelligence of the people is wiser than a bunch of professional demagogues manipulating our money in order to achieve only one goal: Re-election.
#80,
Holy Crap! You didn’t call me a name!
I shall return the favor:
Mr. Fusion,
Money is just something that has a value attached.
That is very true. But if you want to make more of it, you have got to produce something to justify its creation.
Or do you believe that you can create all the money you want on a printing press and not worry about its true value?
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