MikieV says:

#34: “Can you imagine ANY POSSIBLE CASE where torture is warranted, or is it an absolute bar? One innocent victim, a bus of kiddies, a building of office workers, the EAST coast==no limits at all?”

Yes, I can imagine a “possible” case where I would advocate torture of a suspect.

I only have three problems with torture debate:

1. TV shows e.g. “24″ & movies e.g.”Dirty Harry” go to great lengths to show us why we should have no pity for the dirtbag e.g. he has “a bus of kiddies” in danger.

We are expected to believe that -anyone- the US has tortured, or will torture, is harboring information that could save American lives.

In a nutshell, I can imagine a scenario in which I feel torture would be justified, but I am not convinced that -all- the people we tortured actually held any information that would justify the torture we inflicted on them.

2. The nut-jobs who are desperately trying to protect Bush’s public, official assertion that the US doesn’t torture.

At first they went all PC on us, saying that it was “harsh interrogation techniques” – not torture.

When that fails, they then come to the defense of torture – because torturing an enemy of America is okay as long as it saves American lives.

And, now I’m supposed to believe Cheney when he says American lives were saved… when he was also leading the chorus that “the worst of the worst” were in Gitmo – when the worst were actually in the secret, “black” interrogation sites – and not brought to Gitmo until the public was made aware of the existence of the “black” sites.

3. This crap about how we “waterboard our own troops for training, so it can’t be considered torture”

If people can’t understand the difference between waterboarding our own troops – in controlled circumstances – versus being waterboarded while imprisoned by an enemy… then those people are clueless f*%ks.

Are our own troops kept awake for 11-days at a time?

“Slapped” on the abdomen – i.e. “Whee, its just a pink belly like you got at summer camp!”

Slammed into walls – as long as a rolled-up towel is used to prevent neck injuries?

Our troops -know- they are in a training exercise, and even if they are accidentally injured, they know they will be given immediate medical attention.

The people who we have tortured know they may be treated for their injuries, but only so that the “interrogation” can continue.

Think about that, for a bit, and then tell me waterboarding is the same thing we do to our troops – for “training”.

contempt says:

War is an ugly part of life many judge through the spectrum of ignorance. They cry injustice from the safety of distance making irrational and emotional claims built upon a false structure of caring.

Many fool themselves by demanding we fight a civilized war, then when the next round of death and destruction rains down these same people are always the first to whine. “Why wasn’t anything done to stop this?” They conveniently forget their sorted part in crushing national vigilance after the fact.

So, as you stand knee deep in blood and charred body parts of your friends and family remember what your have asked for and received… a civilized destruction you can feel good about because you cared more about the enemy than your fellow citizens.

bobbo says:

Now for the extra points==after defining torture and the VERY LIMITED circumstances where it even “might be” warranted, THEN we get to decide whether or not the benefits of torture are outweighed by other policy considerations.

Those of you with concrete certainty between your ears need not engage in this ultimate determination. You just don’t have the horsepower.

Off topic==but sure does remind me of our moral position on paying ransom for terrorist captives: “USA NEVER pays ransom.” But you’d have to think Raygun had a sense of humor to appreciate the values in contest on that one.

Wretched Gnu says:

“So, as you stand knee deep in blood and charred body parts of your friends and family remember what your have asked for and received… a civilized destruction you can feel good about because you cared more about the enemy than your fellow citizens.”

This has been the justification of every totalitarian regime in history, bar none.

Lou says:

Shep is the only normal guy over at FOX TV.

jbenson2 says:

Blah, blah, blah.

Bottom line.

Waterboarding was not classified as torture in 2002. There is no case here.

Mr. Fusion says:

#52, Benson

Waterboarding was not classified as torture in 2002. There is no case here.

There have been several court cases, civilian and military, where water boarding was defined as torture. The last in 1994 where a Texas Sherrif received 10 years in jail. And no, George Bush didn’t give the guy a Governor’s Pardon either.

bobbo says:

#54–cursor==”The end cannot justify the means. We are not animals. We walk on TWO legs, not four.”

EVERY end has a means. EVERY means has an end. Some ends/means are justified and some are not.

We ARE animals. With a brain. Use it.

MikeN says:

Hey, I thought Fox News was a monolithic neo-con network? How could they have two views if ‘fair and balanced’ is a joke?

I think the two views applies to liberals: If Bush does it, it’s bad, if a Democrat does it, it’s OK.

Or in Nancy Pelosi’s case, if there’s no cameras it’s ok. If there’s an audience to demagogue, it’s bad.

Mr. Fusion says:

#55, Bpbbp,

EVERY end has a means. EVERY means has an end. Some ends/means are justified and some are not.

Not all Means are good. Nor are the Ends all good. BUT, when you can justify the evil means because of some beneficial end, you are still evil.