 What?!?! |
Cold water on waterboarding | Philadelphia Inquirer — Interesting. FYI
A former FBI interrogator who questioned al-Qaeda prisoners testified yesterday that the Bush administration incorrectly declared success from extreme techniques such as waterboarding, when those methods actually were slow, unreliable, and led an important witness to stop talking.
Ali Soufan, testifying to a Senate panel from behind a screen, said his team’s nonthreatening interrogation approach elicited crucial information from al-Qaeda operative Abu Zubaydah, including intelligence on Jose Padilla, who was convicted of supporting an al-Qaeda cell.
Soufan said his team had to step aside when CIA contractors took over. They began using harsh methods that caused Zubaydah to “shut down,” Soufan said, and his team had to be called back.
Diesel…she didn’t get the job because of her skills. If that was a requirement, the Dems likely would have another Speaker.
More noise from smart republicans on torture today…Powell’s top aide is talking smack about Cheney too.
#81 OBoB
Obviously the Democrats would like to have someone else. Someone with an IQ above single digits that can speak well in public who isn’t a fucking liar.
I doubt whether we can have that from either of the two ruling parties nowadays.
#80 As Creator, everything is His to do with as He wants to. You have no standing to object…
However,the premise of your complaint arises from your perspective…
To you, death is the end.
To God, when humans die, its only a relocation.
These firstborn were immediately relocated to a much better place.
So everything you allege about God re these children, is a falsehood.
What you see as punishment of them…was rather punishment of their parents…
22 And you shall say to Pharaoh, Thus says the Lord, Israel is My son, even My firstborn.
23 And I say to you, Let My son go, that he may serve Me; and if you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your son, your firstborn. –Exod 4:22f
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; (2Co 5:11 KJV)
You have no standing before God to complain, you are His creation, and He can do with you as He wills. Rather than approach Him with mouth wide open with blasphemies…you should be in fear:
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
(Rom 9:20-23 KJV)
Anyone who would not water board a terrorist to prevent a terrorist attack upon his family is not fit to live.
Its unconscionable any allow their own family die a horrible death…just so a terrorist is not discomforted by questioning.
Its unreality anyone actually do that… I submit Obama would torture, do even worse than water boarding, if he thought that would stop an attack on his kids…
Therefore he is without defense if a terror attack kills Americans, that could have been prevented by a harsh interrogation.
84,
And if the person/people you are waterboarding turns out to be completely innocent, would you not consider the act of randomly torturing people an act of terrorism?
#85 Then compensation is called for…
Water boarding, as proved by KS Muhammed who was had it done over 80 times, doesn’t physically damage…
He survived 80+ water boardings, with no apparent lasting harm.
Those taken for possible water boarding were involved in terrorist attacks, they didn’t find these people at the mall minding their own business.
We don’t stop all law enforcement, just because someone innocent might be inconvenienced.
#83, methinks I hear the chirping of the rare ruby-throated apologist, sometimes known as Alfred1.
As you say, God’s killing of the firstborn male children wasn’t an act against them per se, but against their parents and siblings. How much hatred for those families does it take to intentionally kill their child, or their brother? How do you explain to an inconsolable little boy or girl that their big brother was killed by a god who loves them very much and wants the best for them, despite the fact that he killed their sibling in an effort to coerce the Pharaoh to do his will?
Once you allow yourself to justify the killing of innocent children as a purposeful act of god, it then becomes clear that nothing in the world is so obviously evil that you can be sure it’s not an equally justifiable act of god. According to your line of reasoning, you cannot have any certainty that Osama bin Laden wasn’t acting at God’s behest, because killing innocent people is God’s rightful choice, and God is obviously never required to announce his servants for your recognition and approval.
When a god continually exercises his right as Creator to actively bring pain and suffering to even the most innocent among his creation, for whatever purpose, claims of love and justice ring quite hollow. God ends up looking even more thuggish than the people who invented him.
Perhaps the best use of your “god-given conscience” has always been for recognizing the nature of false gods in the world by the evil they do. You’ve obviously got your conscience switched to the “off” position, Alfred1.
It is interesting how the debate (and apparent blamecasting) has turned from those who planned and executed the torture to some of the people who were briefed on the plan. Pelosi may be a liar, but that does not reduce the Bush administrations condonement, planning, and execution of an official USA torture program.
That stain is on this country’s soul, and every one of you evil anti-american f*cktards that defend torture only make that stain moree ugly and deep. You people better pray I never meet you in public, because I will carry out on you in person the shit you approve of for others. Your pro-torture stance means you support my beating a position reversal from you, right?
#87 You are a moonbat…so reason will not stop your barking…
When God relocates a human being, from this world, to the next, ITS NOT KILLING in the sense you require for God to be evil or unjust.
Its His right to do with His how He wills and you have no standing to complain.
#86, Ayatollah1,
#85 Then compensation is called for…
What? No criminal charges? An assault is an assault. There is no justification for law enforcement assaulting someone they have in custody.
How does someone sue the American government when they will use their “secrets” powers to prevent any trial from even taking place?
Water boarding, as proved by KS Muhammed who was had it done over 80 times,
Lets make an analogy. Mohamed Ali was hit in the head many times by very strong men over his career. Can we use that as an excuse to say beating you about the ears is OK because it doesn’t cause permanent damage?
Or how about the mental aspect. Did all the bullying you went through as a kid damage you later in life? Don’t answer, we know the end result.
Those taken for possible water boarding were involved in terrorist attacks, they didn’t find these people at the mall minding their own business.
Oh, another one that knows all the secrets. We are discovering more all the time about how many people were tortured. It has been reported that every person that was detained in Guantanamo was tortured. Of the over 800 that were there at one time, approximately only 60 are a serious danger or ever had any valuable information. That adds up to a hell of a lot of innocent people tortured. For your pleasure.
A sizable number, we don’t really know how many, were abducted by Afghan Warlords and sold to the Americans for the bounty. They could have been enemies of the Warlords or just innocent people in the neighborhood.
We don’t stop all law enforcement, just because someone innocent might be inconvenienced.
And we don’t stoop to the level of the terrorist to accomplish terror. We don’t allow “law enforcement” to shoot innocent people on whims. We don’t let law enforcement extract revenge. We have a legal system in this country. And that is what differentiates a civilized society from the lawless, tribal warfare you wish to install.
Why do you hate America?
#88 Its those who would allow their own families be tortured and killed…so that their fellow terrorists not endure a harsh interrogation.
I don’t believe Obama would refuse to use torture, even worse than water boarding, if it would save the lives of his daughters.
Therefore he is without excuse if terrorists slay Americans in an attack that could have been prevented had we still employed harsh interrogation techniques…
If he would do it for his family,then he should be willing to do it for us.
#90 I’m not defending every aspect of Gitmo…I don’t have time.
This is about water boarding, and the fact none of you would really not use it, if it could save your family from death.
None of you…or you aren’t fit to live.
Therefore you all should stop the hypocrisy.
Repeating two cornerstones:
1. There is no god, and if there was, he should be contested.
2. Hypotheticals like the “ticking bomb” used to discuss torture are very misleading to those with IQ’s of 150+. We with lower IQ’s remember that such hypotheticals begin with “if” and in real life, those if practically never occur. Further, such Teen Age Agression is very short sighted aimed at winning a battle with no view towards the war.
Silly hoomans.
#93 Bobbo!
1)God is and He is infinite, that renders every possible challenge “no contest.”
2)Although its hypothetical to you…its still a valid question as the principle involved is at play…
If water boarding is OK to save your family, then its ok to save your neighbor’s family.
So you wouldnt mind being waterboarded, or beaten, or any other form of torture that doesnt leave any permanent PHYSICAL effects, if a child on your street goes missing.
93#
In other words…if you state unequivocally you would not use harsh interrogation to save your family from a terrorist attack…from certain torture and horrible death…
You would not life your finger to cause even minor discomfort to a terrorist who knew how to stop the attack.
THEN you are not hypocritical when you decry our use of waterboarding…
BUT then you are not fit to live.
The always-entertaining Alfred1 wrote “Its [sic] His right to do with His how He wills and you have no standing to complain.”
You should print that up on a religious tract and start ringing doorbells. Your cult would grow quickly, I’m sure
#95 False analogy…we aren’t talking about missing children…
We are talking about terrorist attack.
Now if you refer to a molester who has a child buried alive…after abusing him…I have no problem with water boarding to save the child…
I would gladly port the technique over to the realm of law enforcement…which is why you probably wouldn’t vote me in as Prosecutor or any elected office.
#97 You have no legal standing before God, to critique His use of what is His.
He made all things…He therefore has the right to do anything He wants with it.
That’s why terror should seize you whenever you contemplate Him and His ways.
#97 Satan’s challenge illustrates this…he does not say God has no right to do as He wants with His, rather satan tried to prove God made mistakes…therefore was not God…and hence had no right to act as God, even over what He made.
In other words…its not a contest, satan loses in any contest against INFINITE God.
Its satan trying to use God against Himself…His consistency, His truthfulness…as God defines God as one who cannot make mistakes…if God did make a mistake, then He would rule Himself not God.
Then satan would be allowed to have the earth.