Courthouse religious display ruled unconstitutional – of course

Published on June 9th, 2009

An appeals court has ruled that a Ten Commandments monument at the county courthouse in Stigler, Oklahoma, violates the Constitution because its primary effect is to endorse a religion.

The 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled 3-0 in a challenge to the monument brought by the American Civil Liberties Union of Oklahoma and by a county resident.

“We hold that the [Haskell County commissioners'] actions in authorizing and maintaining the monument . . . had the impermissible principal or primary effect of endorsing religion in violation of the Establishment Clause” of the Constitution, the judges wrote in a 52-page decision…

On May 18, Gov. Brad Henry signed a measure to place a privately funded monument of the Ten Commandments at the Capitol…

The measure passed despite concerns that it could draw a costly legal challenge and could be interpreted as the state’s endorsement of a religion.

This crap never seems to end, does it?

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# 1 qb said, on June 9th, 2009 at 6:06 am

I’m waiting for someone here to claim that American Law is somehow rooted in Mosaic commandments.

# 2 Savantish said, on June 9th, 2009 at 6:14 am

Why is this monument controversial? The 10 Commandments are engraved onto the Supreme Court building and inside the courtroom itself. It represents divine authority for the rule of law and of self governance. It’s only in the last 30 years that American Society has been hyper sensitive to public religious references.

# 3 Hmeyers said, on June 9th, 2009 at 6:16 am

The 10 Commandments were rather groundbreaking at the time in the sense that they applied to kings and the wealthy as well as peasants.

Prior to the 10 Commandments, the closest you had to the concept of justice was Hammuabi’s Code …

How the 10 Commandments differs is that if you check out Hammurabi’s Code you’ll see that the rich can buy their way out of punishment and instead of losing an eye for an eye, can do wrong and just cough up bucks.

The 10 Commandments really are the foundation of modern law and the concept of blind justice that does not care about the stature of the parties only the facts at hand.

/To any asshat: I’m an atheist and I’m talking in the context of the history of law.

# 4 newrepublican said, on June 9th, 2009 at 6:19 am

And don’t forget about fucking your neighbor’s wife. Truly important in the Bible Belt.

And maybe his mule, too.

# 5 Personality said, on June 9th, 2009 at 6:23 am

Take it down or a Muslim will suicide bomb it?

# 6 BubbaRay said, on June 9th, 2009 at 6:29 am

#5 Please, oh please, then we could build a million of ‘em and get rid of all suicide bombers very soon.

# 7 jccalhoun said, on June 9th, 2009 at 6:30 am

The newspaper website updated the story and adds a lot more details.

From the updated article:
“The monument was funded and constructed by Christians”

“In 2004, then-Commission Chairman Sam Cole stood by the monument after it was dedicated on the courthouse lawn.
‘That’s what we’re trying to live by, that right there,’ he said then. ‘The good Lord died for me. I can stand for him. And I’m going to.
‘I’m a Christian and I believe in this. I think it’s a benefit for this community,’ Cole told a crowd of several hundred people.”

So from the outset they made no pretense in claiming that this was anything other than a religious monument. That the words on it had some connection to legal history is in this case seem to just be an excuse.

# 8 tomdennis said, on June 9th, 2009 at 6:38 am

The ten commandments were written as law to be obeyed. You don’t want your tribe to run amok throughout the land. How they came about may be a story but we use most of these laws in everyday practice. I realize that some of you do not have sense enough to rest on The Sun Day.

# 9 Stinker said, on June 9th, 2009 at 6:57 am

“The monument was funded and constructed by Christians”

Gee, and for just a moment I thought it was funded by a coalition of muslims, and the bahai faith.

# 10 Mac Guy said, on June 9th, 2009 at 6:58 am

I’m an atheist, and I agree that this ruling is appropriate in its scope and interpretation of the U.S. Constitution.

However, what is bringing us to this point? Christians are pushing back for what they perceive is a society hellbent (pun intended) on trampling upon their views AND their rights. When private stores and businesses are sanitizing their “holiday” sales for fear of offending a small number of customers (who need to get a friggin’ life), it’s offensive. It’s almost as though “Christian” has become a dirty word, and the mere utterance sends chills through everyone’s spines for fear of an “uncomfortable encounter.”

For a country whose agenda is tolerance in the world, we seem to be having a bit of trouble with it on our own…

# 11 Mr. Fusion said, on June 9th, 2009 at 7:02 am

#8, tom,

we use most of these laws in everyday practice.

Actually we don’t.

The first few commandments are all bullshit making me worship some fairy tale in the sky. Then there is that ole “covet thy neighbor’s ass” crap when that piece of lard just ain’t attractive at all. “Thou shalt not kill” get’s a lot of excuses why it doesn’t count. Of course your mileage may differ.

The Ten Commandments were just some simple laws provided by and for a simple people to keep them in line. It has nothing to do with modern law and never did.

British Common law dates back to the Magna Carta and the concept that no one, including a King, is above the law. Everyone is equal. American law follows this concept. The English Civil War and American Revolution were both fought to prove that point.

# 12 Patrick said, on June 9th, 2009 at 7:04 am

# 3 Hmeyers said, “The 10 Commandments really are the foundation of modern law and the concept of blind justice that does not care about the stature of the parties only the facts at hand.”

Yes, and you’ll find statues of the major religious lawgivers throughout history in the SCotUS building. Kinda ironic.

# 13 qb said, on June 9th, 2009 at 7:05 am

#3 No offence to anyone, but the 10 Commandments have a very small influence on modern law when compared with Codex Hammurabi, Greek, and especially Roman law. I think it’s cherry picking.

# 14 MRN said, on June 9th, 2009 at 7:07 am

What most people forget is that one person’s freedom, religious or otherwise, ends where another’s rights begin.

# 15 Dennis said, on June 9th, 2009 at 7:08 am

Christians have been persecuted for years (centuries) so why stop now?

Hmm, as someone who is rational, and holds themselves to strict standards, and does not feel anyone has any right to spout their religion at me, I feel this is a blight on the Separation of Church and State.

# 16 Patrick said, on June 9th, 2009 at 7:13 am

# 13 qb said, “No offence to anyone, but the 10 Commandments have a very small influence on modern law”

No offense, but you need to do just a little research…

http://tinyurl.com/nnre56

# 17 contempt said, on June 9th, 2009 at 7:20 am

Obama is ripping up the Constitution on a daily basis and this is what you gripe about as unconstitutional?

Some people deserve to be slaves.

# 18 RTaylor said, on June 9th, 2009 at 7:23 am

Judaism believes in the Commandments. The Qur’an reflects the values of the Commandments. There is a need in the vast majority of humans for religion. In fact some atheist have turned that into a religion by crusading against an overwhelming majority. It’s a waste of energy to argue against religion. They have the trump card of faith, which Science can never play.

# 19 killer duck said, on June 9th, 2009 at 7:28 am

#16 a quote from a bible thumper’s book is hardly evidence of anything.
The church and religion is simply instruments of social control, propagated and used by government to reduce the risk of social upheaval.
What’s the difference between Zeus and Jesus?

# 20 Patrick said, on June 9th, 2009 at 7:29 am

# 18 RTaylor said, “They have the trump card of faith, which Science can never play.”

Global warming fanatics.

# 21 TThor said, on June 9th, 2009 at 7:29 am

It is all coming apart…. sense and sensibilty all forgotten and all nitpicking and god knows what… Poor us.

And “One Second After” by William R.Forstchen tells where these anal-retentives will go… eventually

# 22 reality_rules said, on June 9th, 2009 at 7:31 am

#16,

From an Amazon.com review of Federer’s book,

Before you read this book, do a little research on your own. If the Ten Commandments played a role in the formation of the laws of this country, you would hope to see them discussed in the forums where these laws were formulated. For example, the transcripts of the Constitutional Convention, the Federalists Papers, the transcripts of the first meetings of our new Congress, all are logical places where the Decalogue would have to be discussed to claim its role in US history. Are they there? No. The Supreme Court has never cited the Ten Commandments as a legal authority for any of their decisions. Federer’s arguments are fuzzy and dance around the edges of reality. This is not a book for those who want their history without attached agendas!

Not very convincing to me.

# 23 badtimes said, on June 9th, 2009 at 7:36 am

C’mon Patrick- citing a book by Federer?
Fusion’s right re: the Magna Carta.
And how is President Obama ripping up the Constitution? By starting a fourth branch of government based around the Vice President? By asserting the President’s actions are legal by virtue of said actions being the President’s? I think you’re suffering from a Bush flashback.

# 24 Named said, on June 9th, 2009 at 7:52 am

#3,

So, in modern American law and Justice, the moneyed buy themselves out all the time! Skin colour and wealth are the determining factors of guilt and punishment in the US.

# 25 Rick's Cafe said, on June 9th, 2009 at 7:56 am

#11,
Strongest argument is calling everyone ‘else’ a simpleton. Needed that bit of humor, thanks.

# 26 Buzz said, on June 9th, 2009 at 8:04 am

I’ve got a better set of commandments.

A list based strictly on a fusion of Allah, Buddah and all other deities that end in H. There are 506 of them. Three are about human to human behavior, three are about spiritual matters and five hundred are about financial law that either is in place or should be for religious reasons.

Can I put that next to the Classic Ten? You know, for fairness and equality?

# 27 MikeN said, on June 9th, 2009 at 8:09 am

The ACLU and their liberals are busy tearing down religious statues just like the Taliban tore down the Bamiyan Buddha.

# 28 Olo Baggins of Bywater said, on June 9th, 2009 at 8:17 am

And anyway, there are supposed to be 15 of them.

# 29 qb said, on June 9th, 2009 at 8:18 am

Patrick, have you checked Mathew Staver’s background? He’s probably a little biased. I’d suggest taking a look at Glenn’s Legal Traditions of the World.

# 30 jccalhoun said, on June 9th, 2009 at 8:21 am

The ACLU and their liberals are busy tearing down religious statues just like the Taliban tore down the Bamiyan Buddha.
Huh, that’s funny, I haven’t seen them tearing down the Big Butter Jesus north of Cincinnati. http://roadsideamerica.com/story/9786 If any religious statue needs torn down it is that ugly thing. I haven’t seen them tearing down any religious icons on private property at all…

# 31 freddybobs68k said, on June 9th, 2009 at 8:30 am

Fair enough. It is a religious symbol – and it’s on a government property. There is the separation of church and state. So it should be removed. Simple.

If you want religious symbols pretty much anywhere else, then that’s okay. At a church. Outside a church. In your house. Outside your house. Etc.

So just take the things down, and lets move on.

If you’re worried about forgetting the 10 commandments, then add a few more tablets at home. Perhaps one above your bed (so you can see it when you wake up and when you go to sleep – ‘course).

# 32 R Hastings said, on June 9th, 2009 at 8:33 am

Could we at least have the Catholic version of the 10 Commandments posted? If you want to combine church and state, avoid these heretical fundamentalist amateurs and go with a Church that’s had some experience in the matter.

# 33 Mr. Fusion said, on June 9th, 2009 at 8:37 am

#30, jc,

Damn that thing is ugly. Damn you for sharing.

# 34 Ah_Yea said, on June 9th, 2009 at 8:37 am

Wow!, Badtimes. What rock have you been living under!

“And how is President Obama ripping up the Constitution?”

Hummm, let me see..

“Indefinite Detention”? Or maybe not repealing, nor intending to repeal, ANY bit or piece of the Patriot Act?

What about unconstitutional confiscations?
This is a good editorial, worth a look.
http://tinyurl.com/qc2fk9

What about “Barack Obama described the U.S. Constitution as having “deep flaws” … it was a remarkable political document that paved the way for where we are now, and to say that it also reflected the fundamental flaw of this country that continues to this day.”

Obama did not elaborate on the “fundamental flaw” that persists.”
http://tinyurl.com/5u7xpx

The right to unlawful search and seizure and Habeas Corpus are absolute fundamental rights the Obama administration has either eliminated or is trampling.

Bush wanted to tear up the Constitution, Obama’s brought out the shredder. Who is worse?

Bush Lite doing Bush one better.

# 35 Mr. Fusion said, on June 9th, 2009 at 8:42 am

#28, Mr. Baggins,

Good link. That is one of the more perplexing episodes in our history. I wonder, what ever happened to Sid Caesar, …

# 36 Hmeyers said, on June 9th, 2009 at 8:51 am

@24 Named

The thing that was unique and special about the 10 Commandments was that even the king or the lord of the land had to obey them.

And it was the open recognition that even a king was accountable to a higher calling.

If you look at ancient history, you’ll find all kinds of kings who considered themselves a god in Persia, Egypt, China, etc. and “who could do no wrong”.

The 10 Commandments concept was that it was wrong even for a king to murder an innocent man.

Yes our modern justice, the race and the wealth of a person can affect the outcome. Such is the imperfection of the world.

@13 qb

“the 10 Commandments have a very small influence on modern law when compared with Codex Hammurabi, Greek, and especially Roman law.”

You, sir, need to bone up on your history.

Virtually every civilized nation in the world was at one point in time a colony of a Western power whether it was the Dutch, the British, Spain or Italy.

Most of the non-civilized nations — weren’t!

Coincidence?

# 37 Dallas said, on June 9th, 2009 at 8:56 am

We need to get rid of all the religious shit the Taliban wants to erect on government property.

The church and museums are perfect places to display such relics.

# 38 Ah_Yea said, on June 9th, 2009 at 8:59 am

A little off-topic, but here is another way Obama is destroying our country.

Very good. Get ready to become a has-been country.
http://tinyurl.com/kkygub

# 39 Now for Something Completely Different said, on June 9th, 2009 at 9:00 am

LOL…what a joke. The first FIRST line on that says “Thou shall have no other gods before me.”

Is that a law now? Is that the basis of our legal system? Are Hindu’s jailed for not worshiping Jehovah now? This has nothing to do with our legal system. We HAVE a place for these folks…it’s called a church! OR you can put up 326 of these in your home. Why is that a problem?

# 40 Ah_Yea said, on June 9th, 2009 at 9:05 am

And how about this for ear-marks, pork-barrel politics, and no transparency?

“Obama, lawmakers want lots of extras in war funding bill”
http://tinyurl.com/nyv5vy

Bush Lite just keeps pouring it on!

# 41 Hmeyers said, on June 9th, 2009 at 9:11 am

@39

“LOL…what a joke. The first FIRST line on that says “Thou shall have no other gods before me.”

You know, chief, back in the ye old ancient times that people couldn’t get their morality from education and there wasn’t reading or writing.

So they needed a scary god to fear.

And the 10 Commandments were written in ancient times.

Should it be surprising the first commandment specifically stated there was no other god?

What good was the 10 Commandments if there were other gods? It was a statement of self-validation.

It is a part of human history, but was — shock! — a product of the times.

How far we have moved ahead that some of us know right from wrong without needing to fear a sky god that might cast down lightning upon us or send locusts to eat our crops or turn our cities into salt!

But we have so much more improvement to do.

# 42 Pinkerton said, on June 9th, 2009 at 9:17 am

For anybody who thinks the Supreme Court has a carving of the ten commandments….

http://snopes.com/politics/religion/capital.asp

[Please drop the WWW from URLs as WordPress doesn't display it properly... plus it's unnecessary. - ed.]

# 43 furrypotato said, on June 9th, 2009 at 9:18 am

Exodus 20:2–17
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me

Makes Bush look like a Boy Scout helping an old woman across the street

# 44 Hmeyers said, on June 9th, 2009 at 9:19 am

Some of my fellow atheists are “religious significance deniers”.

You know, not only are the 10 Commandments the foundation of modern law …

But most literacy prior to this last century came from people learning how to read — the BIBLE!

In the 1700s, 1800s, 1900s … the BIBLE was what people used a tool to teach their children to read.

If you are TRUE atheist, you are a believer in the importance of truth over feeling.

You don’t deny the significant role that religion has had in shaping both the GOOD and the bad in human history.

Religion had a large role in our cultural evolution and to deny it is no different than the religious zealot who denies dinosaur bones because it doesn’t fit his anti-evolution agenda.

Some people, even today, need a religion to tell them what to do and to keep things simple.

The atheist argument is that it can be done with clarity even without it.

# 45 Olo Baggins of Bywater said, on June 9th, 2009 at 9:20 am

Change the commandments to plain English and update them a bit. Or, just go with this well-established list instead:

A citizen is:
Trustworthy
Loyal
Helpful
Friendly
Courteous
Kind
Obedient
Cheerful
Thrifty
Brave
Clean
and
Reverent

# 46 Dave W said, on June 9th, 2009 at 9:22 am

What astonishes me is that the ruling was 56 pages long! How many characters do you need to write “Any fool can see that this is unconstitutional.” ????

Oh, and for those of you who have an issue with “Thou shall not kill” might note that a more accurate translation from the Hebrew is “Thou shall not murder”, which makes a whole lot more sense. But you know how those Christians like to play around with verbage.

# 47 qb said, on June 9th, 2009 at 9:46 am

Olo, couldn’t you just summarize that list as “Canadian”?

# 48 Nimby said, on June 9th, 2009 at 10:02 am

I claim the title of atheist but this monument does not bother me. A set of principles are suggested that would make for a moral world if everyone followed them. And a few more.

However, the more important question is about separation of church and state. I believe if this goes to the SCOTUS it will be found to be Constitutional. The 1st says (in part), “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”

Displaying the 10 Suggestions does not establish a religion. After all, the Big 10 are part of three disparate faiths, Judaism, Christianity and (for the most part) Islam. Displaying the Ten certainly does not keep someone from practicing their own religion.

The First Amendment tries to instill freedom OF religion and not freedom FROM religion.

# 49 Breetai said, on June 9th, 2009 at 10:24 am

If the ACLU Wasn’t trying to ban religion I’d probably be on their side. As far as I’m concerned a pox on both the right and left wing houses They’re both fascists with different goals.

# 50 Gary, the dangerous infidel said, on June 9th, 2009 at 10:47 am

#36 HMeyers wrote “The thing that was unique and special about the 10 Commandments was that even the king or the lord of the land had to obey them.”

I seem to recall that according to Leviticus, both adulterer and adulteress were to be put to death. However, when King David committed adultery with Bathsheba and later he caused her husband to be killed so he could take Bathsheba as his own wife, the punishment was pretty light. God caused their bastard child to suffer and die, but King David continued ruling almost up until his death, with his son Solomon succeeding him. This is but one example.

If the punishment is not equally applied, then for all practical purposes, the law itself is not equally applied, and such was the case with Mosaic law. It really was less “unique and special” than you seem to think.

Truly moral mythology is difficult to write, and the Bible suffers terribly in this regard.

# 51 Benjamin said, on June 9th, 2009 at 10:57 am

I like these anti-religious topics. Religion is evil and atheism is so much better.

Why are all the hospitals called things like Lutheran Hospitial, or St Mary’s, or St Jude’s, or Methodist Hospital. I have never seen a hospital called Athiest Hospital.

# 52 Gary, the dangerous infidel said, on June 9th, 2009 at 10:59 am

If the Ten Commandments hadn’t been the guiding light for our founders, we’d surely be a bunch of thieving, adulterous, lying murderers who perform our acts of evil even on the Sabbath.

Whew! We really dodged a bullet!

# 53 Once again said, on June 9th, 2009 at 11:03 am

The Constitution aside, what I object to is the tendency of religious groups to push their believes on everyone else. I don’t like it even if my believes are the same as the one “advertising” his/hers! Belief what ever you will but keep it to yourself, in your church, at home etc. but do not go door to door, “brand” public places or anything of alike.

# 54 Hmeyers said, on June 9th, 2009 at 11:03 am

@Gary

Let’s say that the story is true or at least sort of true (who knows).

Stalin never suffered any consequences for his evil, neither did Mao.

If the story of David in the Bible is a true-ish story a Jewish king, yes he was a bad guy but it’s a handed down attempt at history.

The story itself certainly wasn’t an example for morality.

Half the Senators and wealth rich men in this country think they are a god.

I do believe that in ancient times that powerful kings believed they were gods and could do no wrong. I believe they were probably vindictive, etc.

The stories in the Bible aren’t necessarily well-written, but Aesop’s fables and a lot of Greek mythology has some mighty bad stuff in it as well.

I’m saying the 10 Commandments was one of the most successful — at least in the long run — early attempts to codify morality.

In the ancient times, law was always written by a king or a “god”.

But law written by the king tended to exempt himself — the way Congress exempts itself — at least up until Roman times with dual consuls and medieval times with the Magna Carta.

# 55 Laserdisc said, on June 9th, 2009 at 11:21 am

Please keep all religious displays out of our government buildings. That’s what homes and churches are for.

The Bible isn’t about historical or scientific fact… it’s suppose to be a repository of stories to help calibrate your moral being.

Some people may refute it but honestly, who are you kidding?

# 56 JimR said, on June 9th, 2009 at 11:36 am

Interesting take on the 10 commandments re American law.

“… the Founding Fathers made it clear that Roman law and English common law were the basis of American law, and American Founders also refuted the claim that either Christianity or the Ten Commandments were the basis of English common law. Modern historical analysis provides the same conclusion.”

Lots of legal reference and history. A good read IMO.

http://rationalrevolution0.tripod.com/articles/ten_commandments.htm

# 57 Todd Peterson said, on June 9th, 2009 at 11:36 am

Totally unacceptable to have the ten commandments in front of a Courthouse. The courts should be based on the law, not some made up crap from the middle east.

It makes me sick.

# 58 righteous indignation said, on June 9th, 2009 at 11:48 am

The Bible is a horrible book to allow your children to read. Stories such as selling your daughter, sacrificing your son, daughters rape their drunken father, incest, rape, all sorts of nasty things we would freak if were in a cartoon on TV.

# 59 JimR said, on June 9th, 2009 at 11:58 am

I also don’t buy the complaint that Christians are unjustly under attack. I grew up in a Roman Catholic household, went to RC schools, unwillingly went to church every Sunday, attended catechism, went through all the catholic traditions… and I can tell you first hand, that most catholic parents had no problem slapping, punching, kicking their children (ages 5-16) for saying god, or damn. If you let slip that you didn’t believe in adam and eve, or that you didn’t believe in god, you were severly reprimanded, suspended from school, fired from your part time job, and almost always faced physical punishment at home (of which I avouded and was lucky to have rare and sensible parents). Atheists were considered pure evil. No difference considered between a lying thief and an atheist. That stigma has slowly waned as people are becoming more enlightened on the pure hypocrisy of organized religion.

# 60 Troublemaker said, on June 9th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

Belief in religion is a MENTAL ILLNESS.

All signs off it should be scrubbed entirely off the planet for the health and safety of all humanity.

# 61 Miss_X2 said, on June 9th, 2009 at 12:47 pm

They should have put it in the law library.

# 62 Hmeyers said, on June 9th, 2009 at 12:52 pm

@ Troublemaker, Laserdisc and other wannabee atheists

“Please keep all religious displays out of our government buildings.”

Now, if there is no god then how can these be religious documents?

They are simply historic human documents. Like a statue of a Greek god.

If the state capital has a statue of Zeus or Athena sitting around … do we consider it religious? No.

If you are an actual atheist, how can any documents be religious documents? We all know they were made by man.

I love how some of you guys claim to not believe in a god and also fear some old document from 4000 or so years ago.

Consistency, people!

# 63 Patrick said, on June 9th, 2009 at 1:15 pm

Also, what line in the Constitution says that there can be no displays (statues, etc.) of a religious nature on public property?

# 64 Mr. Fusion said, on June 9th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

#54, Meyers,

Stalin never suffered any consequences for his evil, neither did Mao.

While that is totally irrelevant, neither did Nero, Ivan the Terrible, Catherine the Great, King George III, Louise XIII, Cecil Rhodes, . . .

I’m saying the 10 Commandments was one of the most successful — at least in the long run — early attempts to codify morality.

I understand your point but do disagree. This was an attempt to control a certain group of Hebrews into following their leaders without question. This is less about morality than subjugation.

Remember, “Thou shalt have no other Gods before me” implies that at that time there were other Gods. By declaring the wrath of God would hurt them if they disobeyed could keep most in line.

# 65 jccalhoun said, on June 9th, 2009 at 1:42 pm

Now, if there is no god then how can these be religious documents?

They are simply historic human documents. Like a statue of a Greek god.

If the state capital has a statue of Zeus or Athena sitting around … do we consider it religious? No.

If you are an actual atheist, how can any documents be religious documents? We all know they were made by man.

I love how some of you guys claim to not believe in a god and also fear some old document from 4000 or so years ago.

Yes because it is the documents that they have a problem with and not the people who believe in them and want to make everyone believe in them…

# 66 Benjamin said, on June 9th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

# 60 Troublemaker said, on June 9th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

“Belief in religion is a MENTAL ILLNESS.

All signs off it should be scrubbed entirely off the planet for the health and safety of all humanity.”

So almost every hospital will need to be shut down. St Jude’s Children’s Hospital, Methodist Hospital, Lutheran Hospital, St. Mary’s Hospital, and all hospitals with religious names being “scrubbed entirely off the planet” would not do much for the “health and safety of all humanity.”

I don’t see any Atheist Hospitals. I guess there would be no hospitals anymore.

The Salvation Army Thrift Stores would have to be shut down, so there would be no place for low income people to buy used clothing.

Many homeless shelters and canned food kitchens places are run or were started by churches. Those would go away. Most charitable giving in this country comes from the various churches.

Many of the schools and hospitals built in (the countries in ) Africa and other third world countries were built by missionaries. Many of those people learned to read because a missionary taught them how.

Religion has done a lot more good than bad.

# 67 JimR said, on June 9th, 2009 at 2:20 pm

Benjamin, just change the names of the *publicly funded* hospitals would be a good start. Publicly funded hospitals should have nothing to do with theism. The General Hospital is an obvious example that you couldn’t come up with.

Hospitals like St Jude’s Children’s Hospital are funded by public donations, INCLUDING atheists.

# 68 tcc3 said, on June 9th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

If these religious organizations are so righteous, they’d do it anyway. Because it helps people.

Why does it have to be done in the name of god, or not at all? Why not be good for goodness sake?

# 69 tcc3 said, on June 9th, 2009 at 2:36 pm

Also, as for secular charities?

Toys for Tots
American Cancer Society
American Red Cross

God does not have a monopoly on compassion.

# 70 jxe8bv said, on June 9th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

Who cares, leave it up.
“tax the churches, tax the businesses owned by the churches” .. Zappa

# 71 Hmeyers said, on June 9th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

@64 Fusion

“This is less about morality than subjugation.”

First, although you may be right about that you don’t know.

There have been benign philosopher kings that cared about their people and maybe some of them even believed a god entrusted them to care for them.

Look at King Arthur … “The Land and the King are one.” Although fiction, that attitude had to be somewhat common that some rulers legitimately cared for their people.

Either way, 4000 years ago man was only about 2 or 3 steps out of the caveman era and they certainly needed the threat of a skygod for many of them to grasp any ideas of morality.

—-

But Fusion, putting that aside …

Atheism means you don’t believe in religion.

Isn’t it odd that many atheists spend all their time fighting and arguing over a god that doesn’t exist?

A peculiar use of time, I’d say.

Over the course of the future, religion will play a less and less prominent role in the world the same way so very few people remain that actually believe in horoscopes, vampires, bigfoot, voodoo, potions or superstition.

All the Kings Horses and All the King’s Men can’t put that egg back together again.

I think many of the people that are religious are more sentimental about their religious roots and the role that as children religion revealed interesting tales of morality and learning.

And I think the people that grow out of religion do it on their own.

As a result, I don’t see any religion as a threat and it is more a game of showmanship by some.

But that is of course only my view.

# 72 fulanoche said, on June 9th, 2009 at 3:21 pm

When is someone going to put the Bill of Rights in front of a courthouse?

# 73 Gary, the dangerous infidel said, on June 9th, 2009 at 3:43 pm

#71 HMeyers wrote “Isn’t it odd that many atheists spend all their time fighting and arguing over a god that doesn’t exist?”

It’s a worthwhile pursuit, although I think you probably overestimate the number of people who spend all their time in it.

An extreme danger posed by worship of the god of Abraham is that the “holy scriptures” (Bible or Koran) depict this god commanding his servants to kill others in his name. Therefore, anyone who worships this god believes that there is a Creator, and he has the authority to order deaths on earth, not just waiting to punish people in the afterlife. Dutiful obedience to the Creator may require believers to kill others, just as depicted in the scriptures.

This give extraordinary power to anyone who can convince others that he is God’s oracle (or prophet). Is it true that every such religious killing has been the result of actual communications with the Creator of the universe, or have followers occasionally been fooled into performing acts of violence dreamed up in the minds of evil men who merely posed as God’s oracles?

Do you really think this isn’t dangerous?

# 74 ridin the short bus said, on June 9th, 2009 at 3:44 pm

This subject alway brings out allot of ferver… But the point is not religion as most here are harping on. The point is the Constitution and it guarantees a seperation between church and state… thats it!! and to be seleective about what you want to take from the constitution is a dangerous game.. If you want to pray fine,,but keep it out of the court room or any implication it may be in the court room.. Simple.. and I think most of you here should actually go and READ the Constituion instead of touting the Bible.. these are 2 disctinct subjects and should remain seperate. Have a Nice day….:-)

# 75 Patrick said, on June 9th, 2009 at 4:15 pm

# 73 Gary, the dangerous infidel said, “Do you really think this isn’t dangerous?”

It’s a little less dangerous than extreme political ideologies.

# 76 Hmeyers said, on June 9th, 2009 at 4:19 pm

@ Gary

“Do you really think this isn’t dangerous?”

Most of the people who join cults are troubled people or think they have no other alternatives in their life.

This is what makes them vulnerable.

Raise the standard of living in the world!

You never see a cult in an affluent and educated neighborhood.

It’s always the people that life has taken a crap on. They desperately need to BELIEVE there is meaning to their life.

In recent history, this tends to be countries in the Middle East and places like Palestine because the standard of living is terrible.

Case in point, the super depression of the 1930s and Adoph Hitler in an economically collapsed Germany.

Or the Cult of Mao (<— hey, no deity required there!) that rose in the 1960s in the wake of 20 million people starving in China.

The struggle for survival and shattered dreams is what brings dangerous cult movements that are a threat to people.

It can take many forms other than just religion, with scapegoats like “The Jews”, “The Infidels”, the “Non-Believers”, “The White Man is keeping us down”, etc.

Most people are good, it is during tough times that extremism finds its many forms — and I bet it can happen without religion.

As in ultra-nationalism.

Or whatever the hell the IRA was about in Ireland.

# 77 Grandpa said, on June 9th, 2009 at 6:20 pm

This isn’t crap John. This is 86% of the population imposing their will on our laws and lives. Soon you will see more and more heated discussions about issues like these as the Republicans whip their constituents into a voting furor in preparation for the next big election.

# 78 Nimby said, on June 9th, 2009 at 7:15 pm

# 76 Hmeyers said, “You never see a cult in an affluent and educated neighborhood.”

Uhh, Scientology?
Roman Catholics?
Etc.

# 79 Xanthippa said, on June 9th, 2009 at 7:22 pm

OK – a little step back…

How many of us would feel safe in a world where the majority of people elevated ‘divine law’ ABOVE the secular law of the land? And felt no duty to obey the secular laws, because they ‘answered to a higher law’?

It really does NOT matter if it is Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus or ANY other religious fanatics! They are scary, because they believe themselves to be ABOVE OUR LAWS!

THAT is why displaying religious laws on the lawn of a secular courthouse is unacceptable – regardless of anything else (history, accurate or otherwise)!

Few small points:
1. The Koran is NOT – not even partially – based on ‘The 10 Commandments’
2. Buddah (however spelled) is NOT a god. Buddhism is an a-theistic religion: it does not address the existence of God(s) in any way, as it considers such matters to be irrelevant.
3. The Christian Bible contains TWO – MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE – sets of ’10 commandments’! Read your Bibles! Exodus 20:2-17 AND Exodus 34:1-28 each contains THE 10 Commandments… I have read them – they are NOT the same! IF it is important that these ’10 Commandments’ be placed in houses of secular justice – for historical reasons – then placing only half of them is just as wrong as not placing any!
http://www.heterodoxy.com/societyofchristians/ten_commandments.pdf
4. ‘Atheists’ – by definition of the word: nay, by the VERY FORMULATING of the word as it was invented by its author – means ‘ABSENCE OF BELIEF IN GOD’. It therefore does NOT imply ANY ‘belief’ by any atheist: implying atheists hold specific beliefs is inaccurate and erroneous. By definition.

# 80 Nimby said, on June 9th, 2009 at 7:34 pm

Oh, oh, oh: I forgot:
Mormons?

# 81 Hmeyers said, on June 9th, 2009 at 8:07 pm

@Nimby

I knew someone would mention Scientology.

Still … they aren’t killing (a lot) of people as far as I know.

# 82 MikeN said, on June 9th, 2009 at 9:10 pm

So it is unconstitutional for Barack Obama to be talking about Jesus so much? He’s done it more than George Bush.

# 83 Gary, the dangerous infidel said, on June 9th, 2009 at 10:50 pm

#82, by mentioning Jesus so much, I think Obama is still just trying to reassure people that he’s not the secret Muslim terrorist that far-right wackos implied he was. Has it worked yet?

# 84 Uncle Patso said, on June 10th, 2009 at 1:56 am

Thing is, if they _really_ wanted to have (and keep) a display of the 10 Commandments by their courthouse, they know how to do it: include it as one of several lawgiving scenarios from history. But that’s not the main idea here.

Their main purpose was to start a fight.

There was a hilarious bit on last evening’s rerun of the old Drew Carey improv show “Whose Line Is It Anyway?” In a game called “Scenes from a Hat” in which random scenarios are pulled from a hat and acted out by the cast, Carey pulled out one that said, “Something to say that will _always_ start a fight.” So Ryan Stiles walked out to center stage and said, “… Y’ wanna fight?”

That’s exactly what the Haskell County, Oklahoma commissioners have done here. They don’t really care about the marker at all, except as a vehicle to stir up trouble and rile up “the base,” and I’m always amazed that none of the news reports talk about that angle.

# 85 Great American said, on June 10th, 2009 at 2:21 am

This Blog is bullshit…where’s the real news?

# 86 Great American said, on June 10th, 2009 at 2:23 am

I believe in a living Constitution DUR DUR DUR.

# 87 Mr. Fusion said, on June 10th, 2009 at 6:22 am

#71, Meyers,

The first part I think we agree but are just using different views and words.

Atheism means you don’t believe in religion.

I stopped to respond right there.

First, and very important, atheist is the word used to describe me by someone else. I don’t accept that word anymore than I consider myself an infidel or gentile.

Call me what you want, those are your definitions, terms, and conditions. Just don’t expect me to agree with those terms.

I now return to finish your post

# 88 Mr. Fusion said, on June 10th, 2009 at 6:38 am

#71, Meyers,

Part II

As I said in #87, we basically agree.

Where I lean towards the subjugation side and opposite the morality side is most of the stories teach no morals.

Sodom and Gommorah? No morals, just do what God tells you to.

Jacob’s ladder? Don’t do drugs before bedtime?

Jonah and the big fish / whale? I tell you, ya jes gotta have faith. (And maybe after Faith, you should try Becky)

Noah and the great flood? So if you don’t believe in God, he is going to kill you.

The Good Samaritan is the only one I can think of where there is some morality.

I should add I enjoyed your post. Well framed arguments and fun to read.

# 89 Hmeyers said, on June 10th, 2009 at 9:36 am

Thanks Fusion

# 90 ArianeB said, on June 10th, 2009 at 1:32 pm

#2 “It represents divine authority for the rule of law and of self governance.”

IMHO, we should replace all public displays of the 10 commandments, with the 10 most important laws of physics.

# 91 bobbo said, on June 10th, 2009 at 1:56 pm

Always good to post that there is no such thing or need of god, and that if he did exist, he would only be a powerful alien to defeat.

That cornerstone reiterated, the stupidity and evil or religion has long been noticed and therefore announced as declining as man becomes more aware. It just ain’t happening. Religions are consolidating, once there were many, fewer now. This feeds fanaticism.

Biology v Theology==which is more likely to end culture?

# 92 Hyrneson said, on June 10th, 2009 at 7:40 pm

“This crap never seems to end, does it?”

I’ll tell you what, when a court doesn’t put a granite marker stating “There shall be no other God before me” as inspiration for how law should be done, then yeah, this crap will end.

It’s this basic lack of understanding that keeps the Creationist thinking that Creationism is a science. Theology is neither secular law nor science and neither should be substituted as a base for the other.

# 93 Gary, the dangerous infidel said, on June 10th, 2009 at 8:30 pm

I think the most telling moment of the video is when she is on the ground, shrieking in agony, and the cop yells “Put your hands behind your back or you’ll be tased again!”

To me, that indicates a desire that goes well beyond mere control of the situation, which he already has at that point. He’s insisting that she completely submit to his authority and command. By that time, she may very well be incapable of the muscle control necessary to put her hands behind her back, but the officer has expressly left himself the option to tase her again if her muscles can’t comply.

They’re both quite lucky that she didn’t break her hip when she fell to the ground. Many women her age never recover from a hip fracture.

# 94 Gary, the dangerous infidel said, on June 10th, 2009 at 8:38 pm

#93 Triple oops!!!

I plugged this into the wrong window. You’d be impressed if you saw it in the right thread

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