Guilty of Homicide! Prayer is no substitute for medical care

Published on August 2nd, 2009

Daylife/AP Photo used by permission

Murdered!

A Wisconsin man accused of killing his 11-year-old daughter by praying instead of seeking medical care has been found guilty of second-degree reckless homicide.

Dale Neumann was convicted in the March 23, 2003, death of his daughter, Madeline, from undiagnosed diabetes. Prosecutors contended he should have rushed the girl to a hospital because she couldn’t walk, talk, eat or speak. Instead, Madeline died on the floor of the family’s rural Weston home as people surrounded her and prayed. Someone called 911 when she stopped breathing.

Neumann’s 41-year-old wife, Leilani, was convicted on the same charge in the spring and is scheduled for sentencing Oct. 6. Both face up to 25 years in prison.

Their case is believed to be the first in Wisconsin involving faith healing in which someone died and another person was charged with a homicide…

Neumann, who once studied to be a Pentecostal minister, testified Thursday that he believed God would heal his daughter and he never expected her to die. God promises in the Bible to heal, he said. ..

Doctors testified that Madeline would have had a good chance of survival if she received medical care, including insulin and fluids, before she stopped breathing. They said the 911 call came too late.

Ignorance is a terrible excuse for killing your child.

51 users responded in " Guilty of Homicide! Prayer is no substitute for medical care "

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# 1 zorkor said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 8:04 am

Well atleast in Islam we are told to seek medical help and do prayers both at the same time.
Cant say that for Christians… :p

# 2 Jägermeister said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 8:05 am

It’s not the first time God has ordered his followers to murder their own kids…

Religion and its accessories should be labeled.

(Click photo to enlarge.)

# 3 Jason said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 8:22 am

To zorker:

There is nothing in the Bible that says to avoid a doctor.

This is simply another example of truly blind following of teachings that are misguided at best and grossly negligent or worse in most cases.

Jehova’s Witnesses, Orthodox Pentecostals, Baptist Brides, etc… They all need to SERIOUSLY shake their collective heads.

# 4 Jägermeister said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 8:27 am

#1 – zorkor – Well, Hatred has a tendency of shortening the life of kids.

# 5 N74JW said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 8:39 am

This type of stuff really sickens me. I feel bad for the departed child to have had such a backward and stupid family. Clearly, this is a case of prayer being harmful to the situation.

What a waste… The father should be spend the rest of his life in the slammer, or executed.

# 6 joaoPT said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 8:47 am

On a deeper level we’re all guilty to kill our child, just for the simple fact of having fathered them…

# 7 Raintrees said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 9:23 am

Maybe it’s better they are getting out of the gene pool?

# 8 Mr. Fusion said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 9:24 am

YES !!! Alphie was right. The Democrats killed this child, not prayer. It was that drug abusing dealer Omama that is responsible for baying at the moon like a bay crazed shit. The liberal media are always showing us the evil in heir ways. Kill all socialists!

# 9 ridin the short bus said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 9:29 am

This blog has already taken taken a strange twist in the first few posts..

Their are many families in North America that would have done this, unfortunately, this is the not the first case of not taking the child to a medical facility resulting in death.

And #4, I dont believe your comments are very pertinent.

# 10 bill said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 9:29 am

Diabetes is scary! a HUGE PAIN! but, if you think you have any symptoms or feel like crap check your blood sugar… its easy and relatively painless.

It might be low or high…

Insulin injections are really painless with the tiny needles they have now..

I know. I’ve got it.

# 11 RSweeney said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 9:40 am

I wonder how you angry heathens would react if the family had instead chosen wholistic homeopathic ancient Vedic treatment and the girl had died.

# 12 JimR said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 9:45 am

joaoPT, I think you should go a little deeper still. By your same logic, the father who doesn’t fertilize a particular egg would also be guilty of allowing the death of that potential life.

The father of a child is only responsible to allowing a life to proceed. He can’t be guilty, having committed an offense or crime, of causing both nothing and something for the same inevitable but natural result.

I’m open to criticism from any true philosophers in the crowd.

# 13 pecker said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 9:51 am

If I was this guy I’d be feeling pretty sore. What kind of omnipotent and caring god wouldn’t help out in a situation like this ?
Three possible reasons I can see for this poor child’s demise:
1 – the family wasn’t sufficiently righteous so god made the child sick and die.
2 – the family was good but god is uncaring and was happy to let their child die.
3 – god doesn’t exist or has gone away.

It’s stories like this that make me think I might cancel my subscription to watchtower.

# 14 Angry Heathen said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 9:52 am

I hope these religious nuts all die of butt cancer.

# 15 JimR said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 9:53 am

RSweeney, I would be as deeply alarmed and disgusted at the stupidity of those parents as I am now. For diabetes, there is traditional medical treatment that is proven and works. Anything less is a gamble by the parents on someone else’s life.

If you think prayer works, even in the slightest miniscule way, pray for me to stop posting here forever.

[We've been doing that for years, so obviously prayer doesn't work. - ed.]

# 16 Skippy said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 9:58 am

Prayer: how to do nothing and still think you’re helping.

Hope this guy gets raped to death in jail.

# 17 Lou said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 10:26 am

One less nut outdoors.

# 18 joaoPT said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 10:29 am

#12
On the contrary. As death is inevitable, as you permit life to happen (or actively generate life), you are implicitly condemning that same life to death. That’s my point. It’s a chicken and egg kind of dilemma. You either are giving life or taking life. If you refrain from reproducing you’ll be out of this cycle, but then again, only death will come out of it.
There’s basically two ways humans found to deal with this:
Either believe life is something more than just flesh, or believe the individual is of less importance than the kind.
None of this relate to the post at hand, I’m just saying…

# 19 Floyd said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 10:33 am

#11–Quackery is quackery. You named several of them, but there’s plenty of scary religious/pseudoscientific dogma out there.

The classic example you mentioned is homeopathy, in which the sufferer is given a bottle of “homeopathic” remedy that is pure water without any pharmaceutical value.

# 20 bobbo, at the start of a nice day said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 11:22 am

#2–Jag–I dig your comment. I even think zorkor was amused too. He’s like that. A funny Muslim.

#6–joaoPT==thats about as SHALLOW and MEANINGLESS a statement as I could come up with. Causation must be more direct in consequences and without numerous intervening events. Might as well blame the big band, which I assume you do==on a much deeper level.

NO–this issue here for all the bibble thumpers is to recognize just another of daily/constant “in your faces” religious stupidity the atheists have to put up with.

“Sad the girl had to die”==results in most religious idiots including those posting here saying “why do you hate religion” or less pugnaciously but equally stupidly saying “why are you more involved in god than religious people are?”

Hah, hah. If our country/culture wasn’t infused with religion, these parents could have long ago gotten the mental health services they needed.

Course, in the long run, we all die, the kiddie was well on her way to being another useless nutbag, so===hard to get worked up over these things==except our society is awash in the interference these outdated concepts weigh us down with.

# 21 Perry said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 11:40 am

Sad. Poor kid. The rest of you battling fools on here are kind of missing the point. Sad.

# 22 Jägermeister said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 11:55 am

#9 – ridin the short bus

The comments were pretty much on topic.

#20 – bobbo

Yeah, it’s easy for him to point at these religious dorks… but he don’t realize that he’s representing another fucked up religion.

# 23 raster said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 12:15 pm

The idea that a mute invisible entity high in the sky would help is ridiculous.

Everybody knows you take the sick to the healing totem in the heart of the stone forest, and sacrifice a chicken (fried) to the white clad shamans of the red cross demon – sheeh, brainless pagans…

# 24 JimR said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 12:18 pm

Re #15: “We’ve been doing that for years, so obviously prayer doesn’t work. – ed.”

Ooh, oooh, the pain… although… RSweeney could have zang me with that.

# 25 RTaylor said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 12:41 pm

Let it go. When everything is God’s will, how can an outcome be wrong? All prayers are answered, but sometimes it’s no. God took this sick child to Paradise. You can’t win an argument based on someone’s faith. Damn it’s hard enough to win on secular questions.
Throughout history the vast majority of the human race has been superstitious and ignorant. We have a modern education system that continues the tradition.

# 26 Mr. Fusion said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 12:42 pm

#23, raster,

Oh. So that is where all that fried chicken and the occasional virgin comes from. And here I thought it was magic.

# 27 Mr. Fusion said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 12:48 pm

#16, skippy,

Hope this guy gets raped to death in jail.

This guy will spend the major part of his life behind bars. That, and losing his daughter, should be punishment enough. That you would even suggest a fate of death by torture signifies the same sick mindset that caused this girl’s death in the first place.

Don’t worry, puberty is a lot like the measles, you’re bound to get it sooner or later. Then you can grow up.

# 28 Skippy said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 1:15 pm

Mr. Fusion, wow, touchy touchy. You know the justice system, he’ll be out in 10 for good behaviour. By then, he’ll be out of prison and he can go on with his life, spreading ignorance and claiming god has forgiven him, yet his daughter will still be dead. He should be killed in a manner as painful as that which his daughter suffered.

The sick mindset that caused her death is religion, pure and simple.

And I’m wayyyyy past puberty. Although my wife still thinks I can pretty immature.

# 29 bobbo, playing the evangelical atheist said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 1:36 pm

An agressive/caring legal system would name the idiot church he went to as accomplices and charge them with aiding and abetting. Their punishment? How about every Sunday reminding the flock about this case and how you can be sent to jail for thinking God is so stupid?

For once I gotta give it to zorkor. Every similar faith should be ashamed. Prayer AND science. Who’d a thunk it? Let science do all the work and give the credit to god. Thus have I spake.

# 30 g3brown said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 2:01 pm

Yes the guy was probably a nut. But jail? No way. I don’t like the idea of condemning people just because they believe something different. For that matter, why not jail people that feed their kids bad food, which is the #1 reason people develop diabetes in the first place.

# 31 Jason said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 2:36 pm

Skippy #28 – The sick mindset that caused her death is religion, pure and simple.

Actually, the mindset is arrogance that breeds ignorance. The same problem that the far left and the far right are subject to.

And Bobbo, pragmatically, you are on the right train of thought but in practice, there is a seemingly unending supply of wrong headed logic that would make you want to scratch your eyes out after too much time.

By these peoples standards, I and many other protestants out there are writhing heathens for allowing the witchcraft of modern medicine touch our bodies. And for the total lack of scripture that would support their position, they would still ignore everything from the Bible that I would use to support common sense (As much as some here would claim is a fallacy on its own).

# 32 Skippy said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 2:46 pm

Jason,

“Actually, the mindset is arrogance that breeds ignorance.”

That arrogance comes from believing that praying is better than modern science. The belief that praying helps comes from religion. Hence, it was a religious mindset that killed her.

# 33 ridin the short bus said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 2:51 pm

Jag, I still say that posting a vid of Hamas is not on this subject. They are radical hell bent on killing of for a political view…

The father wanted to save his child, by way of faith, he should have provided medical treatment for his daughter. He believed in a higher power put al of his apples inthast basket. I dont agree with what he did…but…End of story

I dont see how Suicide bombers and indoctination of hate have anything to do with this… did you read all of the comments below the vid on You Tube?…

# 34 Mr. Fusion said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 3:40 pm

#33, short bus,

It is the unfailing belief that “god” will save / provide / or whatever is the same for what happened to this young girl AND the suicide bombers.

What the Jesus freaks overlook is that “god” wanted this girl to die. “God” ignored their prayers simply because he had already made up his mind and gets pissed off when some puny human tries to argue with his plans.

# 35 Jägermeister said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 3:49 pm

#33 – ridin the short bus

I was answering zorkor with that video… not commenting the article.

And as for the relation to the story… Sending your kids to Hamas training or pray instead of sending a kid to the doctor is both child abuse.

# 36 ridin the short bus said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 3:58 pm

It all doesnt matter…

The earths magneticsphere is collapsing and preparing for a magtnetic reversal and we will be unindated with the suns solar winds and great amounts of radiation, so a complete reset is in order…

Unless a meteor gets us first?…

We could pray for that to not happen?…

Religion has caused more death than it has saved…

John Lenon had it right Imagine

# 37 Dallas said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 4:01 pm

That poor girl had the misfortune of being raised by the Christian taliban.

If that lunatic fringe leeches its way into government with a Palin or some other host we are doomed.

# 38 ridin the short bus said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 4:20 pm

Hi Jag,

Aplologies……..

Cheers mate…….

# 39 ridin the short bus said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 4:26 pm

#37
We had Bush… he is/was a born again..Idiot… He should of kept to his drinking…

In a stretch I blame him for 9/11.

Prior to Bush every president had an Envoy or Representative or some dort of effort to create peace in the middle east with a new look or ideas to creat the proper scenario wih simmits etc…

Once bush took power he embrased the Isralies and simply igmored what was happening in the ME. Their were no efforts to try to create peace or Envoy or summits etc… He sat in his office in washington piching himself not believing he was president, When seeing no hipe left…the crazy boys decided to act upon an idea they had in work for a long time..

Just my silly theory… but yes we already had one… Cheny….no comment.. just evil

# 40 joaoPT said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 5:01 pm

#20 Bobbo…
I do blame the Big Band…cos they invented swing…

To get to the issue at hand here:
If the father was a real parent instead of a religious nut job, He’d sell his soul to the devil so that his daughter would get well. Instead he chose to cling to his own beliefs. That’s faith. And that, in my view of things is the best and the worst aspects of religion: the sense of confidence. You need it so you don’t get nuts with anxiety but, on the other hand it makes you self righteous.

# 41 deowll said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 5:13 pm

Luke was a Doctor. He advised one guy to drink a little wine for his stomach’s sake in a letter/book of the New Testament.

I have no clue where the we don’t need Doctors came from.

Yes, you pray for the sick but then you pray for rain in a drought. It doesn’t mean you don’t irrigate nor get medical help. Few of these do this crap when it comes to broken bones.

# 42 Dallas said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 5:30 pm

#39 I’m with you.

Sadly, the Christian Taliban parasite has taken over the GOP host organism.

However, the American people was able to isolate the host and cut it from further damaging the surrounding country and world.

We must be viligent as the parasite wants to enter again in 2012.

# 43 ridin the short bus said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 5:41 pm

The System is Problematic in nature… but thanks Dallas.

Sad the Little girl had to die.

What do the Amish Folks do in these situations or the ultra religious folks living on Compounds in Places Like Texas/Idaho/Arizona?

Just Curious…..

# 44 jesus freak said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 5:41 pm

I guess I consider myself a Jesus freak. I don’t mind the label, but it does bother me when we’re called idiots. God gave us medicines and technology for us to use. I see nothing wrong with Christians who trust in God and pray for healing; however, God’s answer isn’t always yes. I agree and think it was very wrong for these people not to seek medical attention, but do not stereotype all Christians as “religious nuts.” Why do so many people hate Christians? Why did so many people hate Jesus? Sin and evil has occupied too many of our hearts. There are so many lonely people who hurt every day. God will take care of you if you give your life to him. What do I have to loose? What if all of you are wrong and I am right? Consider where you’ll be after death.
Do you really believe the Bible is fiction? It has been around longer than most books. There is more research to support Creation in comparison to the research to support other scientific theories. Do your research. Prove me wrong!

# 45 ridin the short bus said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 5:51 pm

#43 as long as you dont vote for the likes of a candidate or his carbon copy just becuase he too is a Jesus Freak?.. It seems thats how we got into trouble the last time.. and He was an Idiot…

Religion has littler or no place in government, because rational decisons cannot be properly made when influenced by religion.

# 46 bobbo, evangelical anti-theist said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 6:14 pm

#44–jesus freak==your humanistically oriented New Testament Loving Jesus is just a gateway religion for all the evil mascarading as the one true word.

How to tell?

Anything that places anything else before people is evil. Such things as god, eternity, salvation.

YOU can/will think whatever you like. It becomes hateful only when you force your baseless ideas onto other people==like the girl who died from completely curable conditions.

Not any love/kindness there at all, just stupid religion. Very hateworthy if anyone has the time for such negativity.

# 47 Dallas said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 6:33 pm

$43 Beats me what they do. It’s a mystery but that’s why Thomas Jefferson wanted them clear out of government.

#44 J Freak. I have many Christian friends – they are not Christian Taliban and they respect individual freedoms. Similarly, I distance myself from radical gay and black activists.

I have no problem with Christ and Christians in general. I have a problem with Christ’s “helpers” who impinge on my rights and use ‘good Christian’ as a fascade for their fucking bigotry. Do you realize how many millions of people have been killed under that banner?

# 48 Zybch said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 6:49 pm

#44 Either you’re being sarcastic, or you actually believe the lies spouted from your leaders hook line and sinker and have never actually read the bible yourself, just the select passages you are told to read.
Religion is ONLY a nice quick way to keep the ignorant subservient and (mostly)docile.
Just because a book has been about for a while does NOT mean that it is more accurate or truthful than something written later. In fact its generally the other way around.

Remember, a scientific theory is a detailed explanation of how a scientific law operates. Not a theory in the usual sense. The sooner you ignorant god-botherers become less ignorant about that then then sooner us non-brainwashed folks will give you the time of day.

And wrapping your entire lifestyle around a bet (pascals wager) is an idiotic way to live, especially when there is no evidence that your god exists outside of ONE book who’s claim of truth seems to come from the fact that the book says its the truth.
I might as well claim I’m the ruler of the universe and back that up by also saying that as the ruler of the universe, everything I say is true, so therefore I *AM* the ruler coz I say so.

How anyone can take these supposedly holy books seriously with their lies (the world is flat), inaccuracies (pi=3) and absurdities (the first couple of pages have conflicting accounts of creation), is beyond me.

For example:

1 God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day.
Yet he didn’t make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). 1:3-5

2 Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). 1:11

3 In an apparent endorsement of astrology, God places the sun, moon, and stars in the firmament so that they can be used “for signs”.
This, of course, is exactly what astrologers do: read “the signs” in the Zodiac in an effort to predict what will happen on Earth. 1:14

4 “He made the stars also.” God spends a day making light (before making the stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day’s work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars. 1:16

Faith is fine, but blind faith sure isn’t.

# 49 Glenn E. said, on August 2nd, 2009 at 8:20 pm

This ruling could also be a serious blow to the dyanetics crowd (you know who I mean). They often prescribe treat of medical problems with little more than vitamins and massages. I believe they showed up with this crap in NYC, to “treat” the 9-11 rescue workers. Which probably did nothing for their respiratory problems, they didn’t know they had. Shame on NYC officials for funding them.

Not all religions discourage genuine medical treatment. But I suspect that the ones that do, are thinking more of saving their followers the money, so they’ll have more for donations. Any church or cult following that does this, one should immediately abandon. And one shouldn’t take on a new one, without knowing all the details of what they believe about modern life. And be careful of a double standard. Like giving you one story at first, and a different story the longer you’re with them. That “progressive revelations” crap is just clever lying. It should be all up front, and out in the open, from day one. Whether you can “handle it” or not. And not holding back some details, just to keep from losing new recruits. And BTW, the US military is guilty of pulling this, with the high schoolers.

# 50 Another Jesus Freak said, on August 3rd, 2009 at 5:20 pm

#46 : You have obviously been offended or hurt by someone using the Christian name. For whatever was done or said, I apologize for them. I don’t know you, but believe it or not, I do love you. God is love. Jesus said to love God with all that you are, and to love your neighbor. By putting God first, you are placing a huge value on human life. What about a homeless person you might run across, do you value them as much as your family, friends, yourself?

One problem I do have with using the terms “Religious” or “Christians” is that until you live it out, they are just words. I can say that I can jump over a 4 story building, but it doesn’t mean that I can. I believe that people use these terms, and many others, as a way to make them feel better internally.

#48 : I love you as well.

There are several ancient history texts outside the Bible that place Jesus as a real man, and in the same time, and in the same area. The Bible also describes tribes and cities that were thought to be part of the “Bible Myth”, but were later discovered to be true. I’m glad to see that you opened the Bible. Later on, Jesus explains that God’s understanding is above ours. But you don’t believe that. No matter what I say, or what points I use, you will still not believe. You don’t want to give up the life you lead. I will pray for you my friend.

If people don’t believe in creation, the what do they believe, evolution? That everything started in a puddle, and something evolved, but what did it evolve from? And how many thing evolved from that puddle, there are quite a few animals, and many of them could not be more different. There must have been more than one puddle.

# 51 Vuong said, on September 30th, 2009 at 10:24 am

Have enough faith.

A lot of people try everything to show that they truly believe in Jesus because they believe that if they truly believe in Jesus then He will listen to them and let them have what they wish for.

If they do not get what they wish, the common answer is that they do not have enough faith in Jesus. It makes sense; however, if they wonder how much faith is enough? Nobody will answer them directly except repeating the same “If…” It means that they have enough faith when they get what they wish for. It means that the whole thing is a catch 22. You get what you wish for if you have enough faith but you have enough faith when you get what you wish for.

For hundreds of years, millions of Christians made their wish with belief that they truly believed in Jesus. They included Popes, priests, pastors, and some persons who became Saints. Most of them did not get what they wished. Is that true that they did not truly believed in Jesus?

Furthermore, if all of people said above did not get what they wished because they did not have “enough” faith then who will?

Pope has the highest ranking in Catholics so his faith must be higher or at least equal to other Christians. If Pope still does not have enough faith, then the others are hopeless.

Many people tried to show that they truly believe in Jesus by even scarifying their own children. They tried in vain and a lot of children suffered or even died needlessly because nobody can achieve a catch 22.

Some people wished and got what they wished for but it does not means because they have “enough” faith. Non Christians who did not believe in Jesus also got what they wished too.

Please let the public know the truth so no more people especially children suffer needlessly because someone desperately tries to prove that he or she has enough faith in Jesus.

Vuong Binh Hong

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