Greg Allen says:

>> # 10 jescott418
>> AKA does anybody remember the $10000 toilet seats?

… and don’t forget the gold-plated toilet seats in the matching “his and her” Gulfstream 5s the insurance company execs get for denying care to their customers.

>> We all know government does not spend money or manage it efficiently.

The right wingers who have been propagandized by th emeid think they know it!

America already has single-payer healthcare (Medicare) and it has far lower overhead than does conservative for-profit healthcare.

And this is only common-sense since Medicare doesn’t have insurance companies skimming off BILLIONS of dollars while adding no value to the system.

Conservative healtcare is a gigantic rip-off.

LibertyLover says:

#61, Please supply a sourced link backing up your rediculous claims.

Not until you tell me why you would let 10 people die to save your wife.

Until then, you don’t have the right to ask me anything or demand of me anything.

For that matter, you don’t have the right to talk to me until that question is answered.

So, quit avoiding the question and answer it.

Misanthropic Scott says:

#55 – Loupe Garou,

… health care is a right (love to know where that came from).

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness perhaps? Any idea how to have any of the above inalienable rights without basic health care?

Just how much are the productive members of society expected to provide for the “have nots”, health care, food, housing, transportation? Why should anyone work?

So, presumably you prefer a society with no roads, no schools, no police or firefighters, no trash removal, no sewage, no public water, etc. etc. etc., right? Good luck with that. Try Somalia. They seem to be doing fine without a government, at least according to the freedom to starve libertarians. Of course, the state department has a little bit different take on the situation.

http://tinyurl.com/6gs2jg

Misanthropic Scott says:

#65 – LibertyLover,

Why is health care so expensive in this country?

1) For profit health insurance companies have no interest in reducing real costs. Their interest is in raising premiums and denying care at every opportunity. Often this results in higher care costs later, which are less likely to be borne by them.

2) Fee for service rewards medical providers for providing lots of care, not quality care. If someone has a recurring illness, that’s a good thing in that they keep paying for visit after visit after visit. It also rewards unnecessary procedures and questionably necessary procedures, giving us statistics including the highest number of Cesarean sections in the world, as one of many examples.

3) We truly do reward innovation in this country. Just think of the level of innovation to keep coming up with illnesses for the new drugs being created. See restless leg syndrome and female impotence for examples. Also, consider the level of innovation required to keep changing the molecules in the medication ever so slightly each time the patent expires, even if the original version was a tad better and safer.

LibertyLover says:

#66, … health care is a right (love to know where that came from).

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness perhaps? Any idea how to have any of the above inalienable rights without basic health care?

Do you know how hard it is to pursue happiness without a car?

You need a car to get a job.

You need a car to get to the grocery store.

You need a car to go other places on vacation.

You need a car to take your kids to the doctor (what good is free medical insurance without a way to use it?).

You need a car to do just about anything in this country unless your idea of happiness is staying at home.

I hereby proclaim the Federal Government needs to provide everyone in this country a free car. Of course, we’ll also need free insurance that pays for gas/oil/maintenance because preventative maintenance is better than overhauling the engine later.

Give us a break, Scott. You are really scraping the bottom of the barrel when you use the “pursuit of happiness” line.

The man who wrote that line, Thomas Jefferson, understood that when he stated in his 2nd Inaugural Address:

“[Our wish is to ensure]…equality of rights maintained, and that state of property, equal or unequal, which results to every man from his own industry, or that of his fathers.” [bold added]

This is the man who wrote the Declaration of Independence. If anybody should really know what that means, it’s him. He knew people would not end up equal in life. They are only created that way.

You are advocating “Equality of Outcome.”

The document you slander is about “Equality of Opportunity.”

So, presumably you prefer a society with no roads, no schools, no police or firefighters, no trash removal, no sewage, no public water, etc. etc. etc., right? Good luck with that.

Those are State functions, not Federal.

Federal Health Care is not a responsibility of the Federal Government. I no problem with any State that wishes to try it.

Misanthropic Scott says:

#70 – LibertyLover,

Do you know how hard it is to pursue happiness without a car?

Strawman!!

This depends on where one chooses to live. Where I live, car ownership is below 50% of the population. I can get to the store on my feet. I can get to my job on my feet, a bicycle, or a train. I can rent a car at many locations nearby if I need one.

There are many walkable towns in the U.S. where a car is not required for the basics of day to day living and happiness.

http://walkscore.com/

There are many more in more civilized countries of the world where GM has not actively dismantled the public transportation systems.

http://tinyurl.com/6oex4n

It is only here where the government is of the corporation by the corporation and for the corporation that anyone might even begin to fall for your strawman automobile argument.

Try replacing car with water and you’ll have a far better analogy.

As for equality of outcome, certainly not. I’m advocating that certain basics are required for anyone to survive at all in the modern world. Healthcare is one such necessity. Until you try living without it, you should not advocate that other people should.

State versus federal is not a big issue to me. Certainly we have interstate highways that are federal and the FBI for interstate law enforcement. I fail to see the huge deal that everyone makes over the level of government providing basic services. Certain things today are provided at the local level, such as our pathetic school system. Certain things are provided at the state level. Certain things are provided at the federal level like our excellent interstate highways. In general, I don’t care much except to say that some states really get shafted under the current system and it does prevent us from becoming a democracy.

LibertyLover says:

#72, This depends on where one chooses to live. Where I live, car ownership is below 50% of the population. I can get to the store on my feet. I can get to my job on my feet, a bicycle, or a train. I can rent a car at many locations nearby if I need one.

Interesting. Then saying insurance is too expensive and everyone needs “free” insurance is as well. My insurance is substantially cheaper than most everywhere else in the country.

Let’s get everyone with expensive insurance to move to a place where it’s cheaper and we can get everyone without a car to move to a place where they don’t need one. What a great idea!

Try replacing car with water and you’ll have a far better analogy.

Now that you bring that up . . . why pay taxes for a public system you have to buy water from?

As for equality of outcome, certainly not. I’m advocating that certain basics are required for anyone to survive at all in the modern world. Healthcare is one such necessity. Until you try living without it, you should not advocate that other people should.

Health care is available, right now, to anybody who needs it.

If the Federal Government didn’t have so many damned regulations, the costs would be a lot lower and this “problem” wouldn’t be a problem.

State versus federal is not a big issue to me.

I know. Fortunately, people are starting to realize the difference and the word is getting out.

Certainly we have interstate highways

Which should be paid by the States. Bribe money paid for them.

FBI for interstate law enforcement.

You need it for, well, interstate law enforcement.

I fail to see the huge deal that everyone makes over the level of government providing basic services.

Because it is not in their charter.

I want my free car!

Certain things today are provided at the local level, such as our pathetic school system.

You won’t get any argument from me on that.

School vouchers!

In general, I don’t care much except to say that some states really get shafted under the current system and it does prevent us from becoming a democracy.

You don’t want a democracy, hoss.

The founding father knew this and specifically tried to avoid it.

Misanthropic Scott says:

#74 – LL,

Wow. I knew you and I didn’t see eye to eye on almost any issue in the world. However, I’m quite surprised that you would make comments like these:

Health care is available, right now, to anybody who needs it.

This is complete and utter bullshit. I can’t believe you even had the balls to type it. You can’t possibly believe it.

School vouchers!

That’s your fucking answer??!!? Are you really insane? How about school standards. Instead of local little stupid fiefdoms deciding whether it is OK for their children to learn the difference between science and stupidity, how about just having real educational standards … kinda like the ones every nation in the world that is kicking our asses in education have. You know, the standards that leave our children so ill-prepared to compete in the real world that they can barely say “would you like fries with that?”

But, go ahead and support your stupid school vouchers. You think you know what the founders had in mind? It sure as hell wasn’t giving you government money for you to give to your local church so they can fail to educate your brats.

And, yes, regardless of what the founders thought, I don’t think that it takes four Texans to equal one Wyomingite. That’s just dain bramaged.

LibertyLover says:

#76, Health care is available, right now, to anybody who needs it.

Tell me someone, you know personally, who needed an operation or anything else, who was actually refused treatment?

School vouchers!

That’s your fucking answer??!!? Are you really insane? How about school standards.

And who gets to set the standards? Some bureaucrat in Washington? It should be handled at the State level. How they decide it is none of Washington’s business.

Besides, where in the Constitution does it state that the Federal Government is responsible for educating the kids in this country?

But, go ahead and support your stupid school vouchers. You think you know what the founders had in mind? It sure as hell wasn’t giving you government money for you to give to your local church so they can fail to educate your brats.

BWAHAHAHA!!!

Where do you think the “government money” comes from? Me, you, Bill, Joe, Sarah, etc. And they don’t get a say in how it is spent on their kids? They don’t have a choice, Scott, on where they send their kids. They are stuck sending them to whatever rathole happens to be down the street.

A voucher is nothing more than a tax refund to allow parents a choice as to whether or not they want to send their kids to a better school instead of the monopoly system run by the government.

There is a reason the teacher’s union is afraid of vouchers — it will make them accountable. We can’t have that, now can we?

The doctors near me do not do pro-bono work. It just doesn’t happen. Don’t be stupid. They’re in business. Besides, you don’t make policy based on a single case or even both of the doctors in your one-horse town who treat people for free. That doesn’t happen much in the rest of the world.

I live in the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex. And yes, they are in business. But they’ve also taken the oath. Believe it or not, there are people who actually care about other people and are willing to do something about it instead of lecturing from a keyboard.

How many homeless people have you offered your couch to over the last few years? Oh, that’s right — it’s easier to legislate someone else doing it.

ObamaFan says:

That’s why I consider Obama to be conservative. As long as the free market is allowed to compete with the government, it is not socialist. It seems inconsistent for someone to assert that government is screwed up and can’t manage things, and then on the other hand to be afraid that people will swarm to a public option. Traditional conservatives like me embrace more options and more competition for the end user.