John T. Elson, TIME Editor Who Asked “Is God Dead” Dies At 78 Amusing since every site in the world has this story except TIME! (As of this posting.)
The quiet, studious Mr. Elson, who died on Sept. 7 at the age of 78, was an unlikely bomb- thrower, and his article, for those who ventured past the cover, reflected his scholarly bent. Meekly titled on the inside as “Toward a Hidden God,” it began: “Is God dead? It is a question that tantalizes both believers, who perhaps secretly fear that he is, and atheists, who possibly suspect that the answer is no.”
#1 Your argument is non sequitur…leaving someone alone does not affect their nature…hence God can be all God regardless what others do or don’t do.
One cannot say “God is dead” any more than they can say “life exists only on earth.”
#41 I really should proof read…God can be all GOOD regardless what others do, their acts do not affect His nature…hence your argument is non sequitur.
About twenty-five years ago President James McCord of Princeton Seminary declared with exuberance that Protestant theology’s Death-of-God movement was ushering in a “whole new era in theology.”2 Nevertheless, Time magazine’s ominous front cover, which asked the question, “Is God Dead?,” was not really as prophetic as President McCord had thought, but rather, was more analogous to the boy who cried wolf or the emperor’s non-existent clothes. Only five years later, Time on its front cover heralded the sudden revival of evangelical faith among Roman Catholic and Protestant young people with a psychedelic portrait of Jesus of Nazareth, labeled “The Jesus Revolution.”3
The Master’s Seminary: Master’s Seminary Journal Volume 2. Master’s Seminary, 1991; 2002, S. 2:61-62
People die. Ideas live longer than people, but eventually die too. Think of all the gods of history who are no longer worshipped, the ones you actively disbelieve in, and and ask yourself: what’s so different about yours?
#39-JimR-#40-bobbo
Everyone loves a good mocking and you do it so well. However in this case you are working under the false impression that I care what your fate is in the afterlife. I mean if you don’t care then you really can’t expect me to.
Each of us make our own decision… you’ve made yours.
I can respect that.
Has anyone actually read this article? The God is dead movement in theology was a reaction to the stale state of Christian theology for the last 800 years. Well actually 2000 years when you realize that 90% of Christian theology is just a rehash of Greek philosophy.
Since that time various fundamentalist reactions crushed the life out of the exploratory thinking and debate that infused the movement (these guys did believe in God) and it is pretty much dead. For example, Pope Benedict’s entire career is a triumph over liberal theology.
Fundamentalist thinking has replaced traditional and liberal religious thinking in much of the world since that time. For example the replacement of mainstream churches in the US with marketed consumer style evangelicals and the Muslim state in the middle East and Africa. In Western Europe the conservative crackdown in religion has only led to a decline in Christianity.
The only place where liberal Christian theology has survived is South America and has been married to various social theorist and linguistic schools of thought.
$47 Characterizing Christian theology as 90% Greek philosophy, overstates the case by about 80%.
And fundamentalism is the main reaction to the against the remaining 10%, its movement to return to the fundamentals…hence Bible, not Greek philosophy.
Liberal Christian Theology is a contradiction in terms… more precisely, “apostate Christian Theology.”
Theology either is predicated upon scripture (Christian), or its not (apostate).
#48 Thanks Alfred1. You just the proved my point that fundamentalism has crushed thoughtful Theology.
However strict orthodoxy, which is really what you’re pushing, eventually wants to become political and it’s never pretty.
BTW, the word “apostate” is from the greek “apostasia” meaning defection or revolt.
#49 Fundamentalism is applied by those who aren’t, to those that aren’t…it simply means a return to the fundamentals of the faith, the core of which is scripture.
#50 Fundamentalism is a path to Strict Orthodoxy, they are not synonyms.
#51 The NT is written in KOINE Greek which was NOT the classical Greek of the philosophers.
There is nothing stale about scriptural theology, indeed…precisely the opposite is the case…knowing Christ indwelling is exciting, and its He who guides into scriptural theology.
Fundamentalism is about whether a fact is acceptable before you’ve explored it. It can religious. It can be left wing eco-nuts. I don’t care.
Of course, the bible was written in a different Greek dialect than classic Greek since the two were written ~500 years apart. Really dude, use your brain.
Scriptural theology is interesting and fascinating. But it is only one small branch of theology and philosophy.
fundamentalism definition
☆ fun·da·men·tal·ism (-iz′əm)
noun
1. religious beliefs based on a literal interpretation of the Bible, regarded as fundamental to Christian faith and morals
2. the 20th-cent. movement among some American Protestants, based on these beliefs
3. a strict adherence to or interpretation of a doctrine, set of principles, etc., as of a social, legal, political, or religious group or system
http://yourdictionary.com/fundamentalism
You proposed Christian theology is 90% Greek philosophy…and then noted apostasy was from a Greek word…implying the latter proved the former…
Otherwise you are like “Lather” in Jefferson Airplane song…speaking words because you like their sound.
That the NT is Greek is irrelevant to the question whether Greek philosophy exists therein, the philosophers didn’t speak KOINE Greek, the language of the NT.
It is the goal of all Christian theology to be Scriptural, that is, be consistent with Scripture.
It is a fact Christian groups have strayed from limiting their theology to what is taught in scripture, incorporating philosophy.
Hence the rise of fundamentalism as a reaction against that.
Philosophy’s premises carry no weight with the apostles or Christ…it is irrelevant to their teachings:
18 And also some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers were conversing with him. And some were saying, “What would this idle babbler wish to say?” Others, “He seems to be a proclaimer of strange deities,”– because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection.
19 And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new teaching is which you are proclaiming?
20 “For you are bringing some strange things to our ears; we want to know therefore what these things mean.”
21 (Now all the Athenians and the strangers visiting there used to spend their time in nothing other than telling or hearing something new.)
22 And Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects.
23 “For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ What therefore you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.
(Act 17:18-23 NAS)
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
9 For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
(Col 2:8-9 NAS)
Alfred1, you’re starting to see the light.
First appeal to authority: “a strict adherence to or interpretation of a doctrine, set of principles, etc., as of a social, legal, political, or religious group or system” sounds pretty similar to “Fundamentalism is about whether a fact is acceptable before you’ve explored it.” Thanks for agreeing with me.
On the philosophical front you’re going in the right direction but you’ve got to realize that there was more than one philosophical school in 800 years of Greek history at that point.
The dominant Greek philosophical schools in the Roman Empire were (wait for it) Epicureanism and Stoicism. (OK, there was skepticism, but that’s another story). Of course, this pissed of the Greeks (the Vulcans of the Empire) and the Jews. When Christianity showed up the Socratics found natural alignment with Platonic teachings and so Saul/Paul and the other Roman hating misfits married the two together and, voila, Christian theology was born.
Neo-Platonism ran for several hundred years through Augustine and Plotinus and made Christianity more legit in the empire because it had educated Greek thinking back it up – in other words, not just a smelly Jewish sect. Of course it didn’t hurt that Roman Emperors neo-Platonists because that would imply political thinking among the Christians, right?
Then the dark ages showed up, bummer. Eventually those darn Muslims showed up in Spain and reintroduced Greek philosophy (and zeros) to Europe. Christianity grabbed Aristotle and that whole categorical/logic paradigm and the Parisian school ran with it. This led eventually to Aquinas, the Summa Theologica, and of course the 5 proofs for the existence of God which you’re so fond of.
Unfortunately this also took over scientific thinking for the next few hundred years so we ended up burning witches because they weighed the same as a duck. Even then, religion and science didn’t mix. Eventually Descartes, Kant, and a bunch of other drunks waylayed the academics and their natural philosphy, beat the crap out of Aquinas, got science back on track, and pushed Theology back into it’s happy Platonic existence. Platonic Theology was also a favourite of Protestants while the RC’s still clung to their Aquinas until the mid 20th century. See “Is God Dead” story in Time.
Latley Ayn Rand, Whitehead, and Sartre beat the shit out of Kant and Descartes, but then they were just showing off. Of course Greek skepticism has been reborn lately (it also flourished in Roman times) and has been seal clubbing everything it can find, including God. Hello Libertarianism.
So when you read the Acts of the Apostles and see the reaction of cool kids of philosophy in those days, you start to see the conflicting schools of thought. Paul didn’t hate all Greek philosophy, just those Romanized limp-wristed, bed-wetting Epicureans and Stoics.
#55–qb==Bravo. If I had unlimited wishes from the Genie, one of them would be to “really” understand the weave and warp of what you have posted. Sadly, I only impercive bits and pieces.
bobbo, I wouldn’t even think about it. I wasted too many years studying philosophy – I should have studied beer making. Beer is closest thing I’ve seen to a proof for the existence of God.
#57-qb-Beer is closest thing I’ve seen to a proof for the existence of God.
Granted, good beer is important.
After reading with great interest a few of your and Alfred1 posts I find it a bit tragic that you have accumulated so much book knowledge and still fail to grasp what is really important.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not disagreeing with your statements just that it’s sad you don’t know what to do with the information you’ve no doubt spent a lifetime collecting.
Just knowing historical facts is useless unless you can also form it into practical application. Perhaps enlightenment will one day come your way.
WOW, MOM, WOW. Beer brings us all together. ha, ha. One of Dodds best summary statements. Greeks had an expression about too much philosophy making someone indecisive (or something), and knowing what one is talking about does make one tend to avoid the easy answers that many others rally around.
Good thing is, one can have philosophy and beer, and even god. or not.
#58 Dr Dodd
You may be enlightened. I’m not sure I’m enlightened, or ever will be, but I’ve never been happier – and your comments have only made me more so. Thank you and I acknowledge the Buddha within.
#59 bobbo
The older I get, the more I appreciate beer. I mean, I’ve always like beer but I’m increasingly amazed at the variety and creativity that people into brewing. It’s art and science celebrating in your mouth.