Videos – Who Should You Listen To On Health Care Reform?

Published on October 1st, 2009

Posted by Gasparrini in Health Care, Politics, Video, medical

Should you listen to overpaid celebrities?

Or the people parodying the overpaid celebrities?

124 users responded in " Videos – Who Should You Listen To On Health Care Reform? "

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# 1 Shenzhov said, on October 1st, 2009 at 6:31 am

Wow, you know the Celebrities video actually does a better job of making you want a public option than the Will Ferrell video. I kept waiting for them to say, and you know Jesus actually asked people for an insurance card before he would heal them.

# 2 pedro said, on October 1st, 2009 at 6:35 am

Perfect video. I’ve had just enough from stoopid lefty loon “celebrities”. Not to mention I cannot stand that Ferrel dude. He was good on SNL, but boy is he a sensless little brat.

BTW, if Dems where majority, they’d have passed this reform years ago… oh, wait.

# 3 gmknobl said, on October 1st, 2009 at 6:40 am

a) i bet they weren’t paid for this
b) it doesn’t matter because the celebrities were right?
d) if you have a voice, use it and they are for those who so far have little voice, the majority that want what all other first world nations have, health care for everyone because it’s the right thing to do (and the Christian thing too!)
d) universal health care really is the only way for us to move forward and anyone who says otherwise either doesn’t understand the issue, is a gullible fool or gets paid by the health care industry making it worth their while to ignore what is good for everyone except rich health insurance executives.

# 4 Dallas said, on October 1st, 2009 at 6:43 am

The republican video hit “Single Payer option a Communist takeover and Kills Grandma” is my favorite.

# 5 gmknobl said, on October 1st, 2009 at 6:44 am

yes, i used d twice – DOH!

in my estimation, Will and crew are mostly b list in this video but they are funny

the argument by implication that because they are celebrities makes them wrong is stupid. the argument by implication that because they are privileged make the elitist and therefore against the common man is also wrong and is, in itself an elitist argument – which does make it wrong too

So Gaspar, your apparent point are just wrong!

# 6 Benjamin said, on October 1st, 2009 at 6:50 am

Celebrities are not rocket scientist or brain surgeons.

I stopped paying attention to celebrities when I stopped watching broadcast TV. I have been TV commercial free for over a year and a half and I am better off.

# 7 freddybobs68k said, on October 1st, 2009 at 6:57 am

Listen to them both.

That said the so called ‘overpaid celebrities’ (aren’t they part of that great free market system – which means everybodies paid what they deserve?), are the more correct.

Feels like a vicious loop. Going on again and again.

If every other industrialized nation can do it – that is better health care for less money, then why can’t America? I mean what’s the frickin’ problem?

And yes I’ve experienced it – ie health care in other countries. And yes Americas system is broken.

As an aside – my health insurance went up 40% this year alone, and is now about the same cost as half of my mortgage. I and my wife have no illness, and haven’t been to the doctor in years.

For that and other reasons – I believe people against a public option are either in on it, or just deluded. And yes single payer would probably work best.

Now cos of all of the scaremongering and idiocy – it looks like we’re going to get some half arsed madness, which as someone posted recently, is probably going to be killed by a thousand cuts by the insurance industry. Pathetic.

# 8 jbenson2 said, on October 1st, 2009 at 7:16 am

What a fabulous video response and slap down of the sub-moronic celebrities.

# 9 freddybobs68k said, on October 1st, 2009 at 7:18 am

#8 jbenson2

Clearly it doesn’t bother you that the ’sub-moronic’ celebrities are right.

So what does that make you?

# 10 pedro said, on October 1st, 2009 at 7:24 am

#9 No, they’re no.

# 11 bobbo, are we of science or devo said, on October 1st, 2009 at 7:26 am

What have we got here?

Celebs = message is that Ins Co’s, Big Pharm, and Executives have a vested economic interest in defeating health care reform–a substantive message.

The Non-Celebs = message is complete ad hominem saying “don’t listen to the critics who want changes.”

In a vacuum, the Celebs are the only ones saying “anything” and the Non-Celebs are championing the status quo.

Listen to ALL sources, make up your mind.

# 12 freddybobs68k said, on October 1st, 2009 at 7:27 am

#10 pedro

In light of the fact the universal health care works by providing better, and cheaper health care to all, in all other industrialized nations.

In light of that, how are they wrong?

# 13 Alfred1 said, on October 1st, 2009 at 7:34 am

Not funny…and unimaginative satire…

Fact is, Obama and Congress will not put themselves under the health care they force us all into…these ruling elites also voted to not make it happen till after the 2012 elections, because they know what a poison pill it is.

As Euthanasia, abortion, illegal immigration exponentially increases, and our country fundamentally changes as Government Nanny State becomes tryannical, invading houses to make sure everyone is living healthy…the full extent of the change will drive even American Idol watchers, to the polls…

But then it will be too late…the special interests wanting to keep the profitable tyranny going, will be impossible to overcome…like now, they will have all our representatives bought and paid for the moment they arrive.

And these Hollywood pukes will travel to countries where they can get their own medical.

# 14 filosofixit said, on October 1st, 2009 at 7:36 am

The US spend more money on healthcare (15% of GDP) then any country in the world (except East Timor)

Here in norway we have free healtcare (and private insurance companys and hospitals) and we only spend 8,7% of GDP. And heck, we even live longer then you guys

BTW : We even got real socialists in our government who recently got reelected

http://bit.ly/ZEFsQ

# 15 right said, on October 1st, 2009 at 8:00 am

Filo – #14. Yes, and we in Canada only pay 10.1 %.

http://tiny.cc/hoGNo

“Two differences between the U.S. and the other countries in the study is that the U.S. is the only country without universal health insurance coverage, and the highest cost of malpractice insurance of any nation in the study.”

Alfred “first in line for public option” 1 wants the US to continue this trend. Amazing.

# 16 Alfred1 said, on October 1st, 2009 at 8:03 am

#14 Yes, you all are living large on offshore oil profits…the statists here won’t allow us to drill, not even near the Chinese oil platforms off the coast of Florida.

Our nation is bankrupt…it will not pay for senior health care…Like you do in Norway.

# 17 Eric Morris said, on October 1st, 2009 at 8:04 am

The 2nd video was much better than I expected. I am a Republican and usually we don’t come out with videos produced this well. I hope this video maker keeps it up!

# 18 cornholer said, on October 1st, 2009 at 8:06 am

You probably play with your own feces if you listen to these fools. No one except for the far left wingnuts listen to the child rapist supporting fools in Hollywood.

# 19 Alfred1 said, on October 1st, 2009 at 8:09 am

#15 While the facist nanny state appeals to you…it doesn’t to me.

Like in the movie, Empire of the Sun, the child was asked what he learned in the prisoner of war camp…

“That people will do anything for a potato”

That is you, willing to trade freedom, for health care.

I am not…and those who are not, are many…

Turning out free country, into a facist nanny state will will be peacefully accepted by many…

(Its time to rat me out to Homeland Security…)

# 20 Alfred1 said, on October 1st, 2009 at 8:10 am

Turning our free country, into a facist nanny state will NOT be peacefully accepted by many…

(Its time to rat me out to Homeland Security…)

# 21 freddybobs68k said, on October 1st, 2009 at 8:17 am

#18 Alfred1

So by your idiotic argument, all the other industrialized nations. All of them. Are ‘facist nanny states’.

Do you know what a facist is?

And I assume by ‘nanny state’ – you mean that they do the unspeakable evil of providing healthcare to all their people.

Do you think Jesus would approve or disapprove, of helping your fellow human being whoever they are (even poor people) when they are ill? Would Jesus be a statist/fascist/communist/socialist/nazi in your view?

Would Jesus endorse your concept of ‘freedom’ of paying more for less?

Just curious.

# 22 right said, on October 1st, 2009 at 8:19 am

First in Line #18.
What do you pay for your health care, or do you have any? Me, I pay $54/month for extended HC which includes dental.
I love my freedom as well but I don’t have to worry about losing my home if I get sick.
Can you say Americans are not losing their homes and life savings because of health care costs? No you can’t.

http://tiny.cc/oHQMA

If I am stuck in a hospital for any length of time, do you think it costs me money? Ummm…come on, I’m waiting…

Here’s a quote from the above link which might surprise you:

“Hospital Daily Cash Benefit
If you are confined to a hospital, we will pay you $20 a day, for up to 90 days, from the 4th day of hospitalization, up to age 65.”

We get money. No bills. If you had that, how would your freedom be affected?

# 23 jbenson2 said, on October 1st, 2009 at 8:19 am

freddybobs68k the troll said:
In light of the fact the universal health care works by providing better, and cheaper health care to all, in all other industrialized nations.

Why are hospitals spring up along the northern USA border to service the Canadians?

Why do Canadians travel to the USA for their major health issues?

# 24 Mike said, on October 1st, 2009 at 8:21 am

I can’t believe anybody could be against the health care bill. Sure it is over a thousand pages and very few have read it, but Congress would never do anything stupid. We always send the smartest people to Washington.

# 25 freddybobs68k said, on October 1st, 2009 at 8:26 am

#22 jbenson2

So you couldn’t answer that simple question then.

As to why do some people come to the US health reasons – its not rocket science. Because if you have lots and lots of money you can get great health care. You can cherry pick. The US is a big place, and has some of the best surgeons + doctors and hospitals in the world. IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY.

Thats great and all. But that doesn’t help 99.9% of Americans, or anyone else for that matter.

How do I know that? Because America pays more for worse health care. And I know that because I’ve experienced it – _actually living in other countries_.

So I’ll ask again…

‘In light of the fact the universal health care works by providing better, and cheaper health care to all, in all other industrialized nations.

In light of that, how are they wrong?’

# 26 RRD said, on October 1st, 2009 at 8:27 am

#17 cornholer said “You probably play with your own feces if you listen to these fools.”

It’s always refreshing to listen to the reasoned and intelligent arguments from the American right. They always sound the same.

If I lived in the USA and with my wife’s emergency medical condition, private insurance would have covered some then droped us like a hot patatoe (yes that’s the correct english spelling) and the rest would have cost us our home, business and car.

In Canada none of that happened and guess what, we get to chose whatever doctor we wanted wherever we wanted.

I thank God every day I don’t live in the USA, and yes I am a conservative to boot.

#22 jbenson2 said “Why are hospitals spring up along the northern USA border to service the Canadians?
Why do Canadians travel to the USA for their major health issues?”

This is a totally false claim proven to be a lie and spread by the American Medical Association which is an organization working for doctors well being (money) NOT the public’s.

# 27 pfkad said, on October 1st, 2009 at 8:30 am

Strictly anecdotal, so not worth much, but I’ve lived in five countries and used the health care in four. In my experience, I’d rank the US system near the bottom, both in cost and quality of care.

# 28 Wretched Gnu said, on October 1st, 2009 at 8:37 am

Face it, the celebrities are funnier.

And I love this idea that the insurance giants who are fighting healthcare reform are not “overpaid celebrities”.

# 29 Wretched Gnu said, on October 1st, 2009 at 8:40 am

Celebrities are not doctors, people! Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh – *they’re* the doctors!

# 30 pedro said, on October 1st, 2009 at 8:50 am

#12 Well, here are some points:

Does the US health system need an overhauling: yes.

Should they use or copy the system that other countries like say Canada have: No, or not completely. Those systems were good when they were implemented (mid 70’s in the Canadian example). It’s also currently facing problems. Even so, there are things into the current proposal that would make those systems you want to copy even worse.

Do Pharma and other Corps against the universal health care. Yes & No. Some will benefit, some will not. The reasons could go from plain greed to legitimate concerns.

Is the current solution being pitched by these “celebrities” the way: Hell no!. You’re being herded like sheeple. Not even the Democrats are into it, only the lefty/scummy part.

Bottom line: pay attention to the mockers. Inform yourself. Celebrities nowadays are for hire. I wouldn’t trust them with the time of day.

#14 There are Hospitals in Norway that are currently experiencing budget problems, fusing departments and reducing a lot of overhead, so things are not as rosy as you might see them.

BTW, How’s that Muslim party going over there? When do you legalize Sharia?

#15 And wait how long for an examination? I still remember how dumb a journalist looked doing a piece on a newspaper explaining how happy he was that his MRI only costed him the parking ticket and that he didn’t mind the three month he had to wait to get it. That was, on top of the time needed for the province to OK the MRI machine in that part of the province. And he literally said “but hey, it was free”. Dumbass.

FWIW, provinces are already starting to do things with the private sector because the they are not able to do it by themselves.

#21 Yes, it costs you money. It’s called tax.

# 31 jescott418 said, on October 1st, 2009 at 9:02 am

Do these celebrities even concern themselves with health care? Do then even know what they have? I love how every so often they feel the need to stand up for the little people about a issue they probably know very little about personally. What a joke no matter which side they are on.

# 32 raster said, on October 1st, 2009 at 9:03 am

A parody of a parody, what a great idea!

Too bad the morons that made the follow-up quoted lies and never bothered with facts.

# 33 GF said, on October 1st, 2009 at 9:05 am

Any Soviet Union pensioners/retirees here? How’s that working out for you?

# 34 Miguel said, on October 1st, 2009 at 9:19 am

I am amazed that you Americans don’t want public healthcare… Speechless…

Have you ever wondered what it’s like to have a car accident, be taken to the hospital, be treated there for a few days, and then getting out and going home…

… without paying a dime?

# 35 bobbo, where is sargosso when we need him said, on October 1st, 2009 at 9:25 am

In Soviet Russia: we retire YOU.

# 36 freddybobs68k said, on October 1st, 2009 at 9:37 am

# 29 Pedro

‘Does the US health system need an overhauling: yes.’

Great.

‘Should they use or copy the system that other countries like say Canada have: No, or not completely. Those systems were good when they were implemented (mid 70’s in the Canadian example). It’s also currently facing problems. Even so, there are things into the current proposal that would make those systems you want to copy even worse.’

I’m not arguing to copy them exactly. What I am arguing is that they work in general much better than what we currently have. That’s not a theory that’s a fact.

So even if you did copy them exactly we’d be in a better place than we are now. Yes, it wouldn’t be perfect – just as it’s not in other countries, but it would be better than what we have now.

Most of the arguing you see is that anything like that will screw up America. We’ll lose our freedoms and be nazis or some other kind of madness.

Agreeing that we have a problem is the first stage of fixing it. We can look around the world, and take what works and discard what doesn’t.

Instead we have scaremongering, death panels, and half arsed 1000 page bills.

‘Do Pharma and other Corps against the universal health care. Yes & No. Some will benefit, some will not. The reasons could go from plain greed to legitimate concerns.’

Right. Way I see it is companys live an ecosystem that benefits the people. Not that the people live in an ecosystem that benefits companies.

‘Is the current solution being pitched by these “celebrities” the way: Hell no!. You’re being herded like sheeple. Not even the Democrats are into it, only the lefty/scummy part.’

I think this whole process stinks. And I think the bill isn’t really going to be close to what it could have been. Which is a real shame.

If the discourse could have been rationally about what benefits America and Americans as opposed to big business, or some ideological lunacy then we may have got somewhere.

That withstanding – as half arsed as it is, I still believe its better than nothing and hope that there will still be a public option. Because I can’t see what else is going to make it work efficiently. And please somebody don’t say tort reform, or more regulation on the status quo.

# 37 J. Pennybags said, on October 1st, 2009 at 9:43 am

Or should congresspeople listen to overpaid lobbyists?

# 38 freddybobs68k said, on October 1st, 2009 at 9:44 am

#35 GF

‘Any Soviet Union pensioners/retirees here? How’s that working out for you?’

Is that your intellectual gambit?

The Soviet Union no longer exists. So the answer is no – there are no Soviet Union pensioners/retirees out there, and that’s a guaranteed fact.

Worth broadening your horizons – there are some other significant countries out there like Germany, Japan, France, United Kingdom, Sweeden, Norway, Russia etc. Perhaps you can go find how their pensioners/retirees are doing.

# 39 Alfred1 said, on October 1st, 2009 at 10:07 am

#20 I will take time only to answer whether Jesus would approve…

Jesus commands His followers heal the sick, and alleviate poverty….

He does not command Governments steal from the rich, and give to the poor…that is theft, a sin.

Statists replace private responsibility, charity, with Government run programs, which are inefficient, often counter productive, and always unfair.

If I could, I would insist all who want Government in their life, be granted their wish…perhaps via a check box on their tax return…

But leave the rest of us alone…YOU should be made to pay for your statist programs, you alone “benefit” from them…without involving us…

I would like that…

After you forfeited your freedom, for a check…you should be happy.

I, and millions of Americans, especially those who left statist lands to be free in American, will not trade our freedom, for your “health care potato” (cf Empire of the Sun).

Health care reform…yes,. Government tyranny, no.

Real Health care reform is being proposed by Republicans…check out the Heritage Foundation for details:

http:/heritage.org/LeadershipForAmerica/health-care.cfm

The Democrats aren’t concerned about health care…their plan is to gain more control over us…supplant our freedom, with dependency.

# 40 Alfred1 said, on October 1st, 2009 at 10:09 am

http://heritage.org/LeadershipForAmerica/health-care.cfm

# 41 cornholer said, on October 1st, 2009 at 10:14 am

So how is it that the same people that justify the drugging, rape, oral copulation and sodomy of a 13 year old child would have any credibility to discuss anything?

# 42 GF said, on October 1st, 2009 at 10:25 am

# 37 “freddybobs68k”

Wow, you mean the Soviet Union was crushed by it’s debt and could no longer fulfill it’s obligations to it’s citizens? That’s terrible. Maybe we should get together and create some kind of NGO and call it Remember the May Day Pensioners or something. You’ll be the first to pony up some cash, right? Can you cut a check for $3,800 bucks? Thanks!

# 43 freddybobs68k said, on October 1st, 2009 at 10:25 am

#40 cornholer

Going by your posts here – it seems like you have some kind of perverted fixation on such subject matter.

# 44 freddybobs68k said, on October 1st, 2009 at 10:29 am

#41 GF

No I don’t mean that at all. I mean it doesn’t exist so your question is meaningless.

That and it has nothing to do with health care.

# 45 GF said, on October 1st, 2009 at 10:39 am

# 37 “freddybobs68k”

So, you won’t be sending in that $3,800? That’s disappointing. Damn it, I’m going to have to be blunt here. What kind of cold heartless bastard are you?

# 46 bobbo, where is sargosso when we need him said, on October 1st, 2009 at 10:40 am

#40–cornholder==I don’t care, but are the same people actually doing both? Not “some group of actors” but the actual same people? Does it matter?

#43–freddy==you normally are on target. Here you are missing that when a government takes on too much obligation, it goes bankrupt and fails to deliver. Some say Raygun broke the USSR by creating ruinous weapons/space race. To whatever degree that is true, its a clever analysis to say we didn’t do the same thing to ourselves by that tactic==or maybe not clever at all.

Lets see: Cold War Warrior Raygun with Star Wars Defense + BushtheRetard tax cuts for Rich while deregulating high risk capital skimoffs = financial collapse. Gee, not that hard.

In the end, inflation is the default position of all mismanaged economies and that always hurts the old people most as they can’t “earn” their way out of it.

# 47 fred said, on October 1st, 2009 at 10:46 am

#38 Pope Alfred the 1st

“Jesus commands His followers heal the sick, and alleviate poverty….”

Precisely so. So how in hell (excuse me – how in heaven) do you expect someone who is sick and poor and has no health insurance to become healed?

Clearly (see your statement, above) it is the responsibility of the followers of Jesus (of whom I assume you to be one) to provide, either directly or indirectly, for the healing process.

That is exactly what universal health care is all about.

# 48 freddybobs68k said, on October 1st, 2009 at 10:55 am

#45 bobbo

‘Here you are missing that when a government takes on too much obligation, it goes bankrupt and fails to deliver’

Sure. But that seems a tenuous objection. Why? Because universal health care can cost us less per capita, as it does in other countries. So is the argument that we must have universal health care so we _don’t_ go bankrupt? I’m fairly confident that’s not where GF is coming from. But if so I’m happy for him/her to correct me.

Its also tenuous because such logic isn’t applied to say the continuing war in Iraq and Afghanistan. You might say that Afghanistan was one of the main catalysts for the ‘bankrupting’ of the USSR. Again I’m fairly sure GF is not in his question suggesting that will pull out of Afghanistan. Again I’m happy to be corrected on that point.

# 49 filosofxit said, on October 1st, 2009 at 11:01 am

# 16 (Alfred) Actually we don’t live much on our offshore oilproduction. Everything we (the state) make on oil we invest in foreign companys (Norwegian Petroleum fund) because it would create inflation in our small country. Some say we may never spend the money we make on oil unless we do like Saudi Arabia, which we wont.

All parties except the “progress party” (similar to your republican party) has agreed not to use more than the surplus from that fund.

Because we belive in strich regulations in Norway we have one of the worlds safest and environmental-friendly oilproduction in the world. We are one of the worlds most regulated country and we love it

# 50 filosofxit said, on October 1st, 2009 at 11:10 am

#18 I would say we got freedom even though it is our government who provides us healthcare. We can freely choose which hospital and doctors to cure us and if our national hospitals can’t provide the healthcare we need, the state will pay for our treatment in private hospirals or abroad.

Regulations is not taking away your freedom, its about making rules for how things are done. And if your politicans are’nt corrupt it should benefit you.

I guess the difference between the US and other western countrys is that you have lost all your faith in politicans (If you ever had faith in them?) and by then don’t trust them. If we don’t trust our politicans, we get rid of them.

But I guess transparancy is easier to achive in a small country like ours than in a big superpower like yours…

# 51 filosofxit said, on October 1st, 2009 at 11:25 am

# 29 PEDRO :

Sure some hospitals are having problems, just because the state runs them does not mean we are immune against idiots running them. I have never said it is perfect, but NONE in Norway dies of ANY disease because they can’t afford the treatment. Does our doctors make mistakes? YES. Does our government make mistakes? YES. They are humans!

MUSLIM PARTY? Which party is that? Actually NO representatives from muslim countries got elected to our parlament this year, which every party (except the progress party – similar to your rep.prty) thinks is a BIG democratic problem!

Know the facts before you speak Pedro!

# 52 filosofxit said, on October 1st, 2009 at 11:30 am

Correction to above post:

I meant that no muslim politicians got elected.

# 53 freddybobs68k said, on October 1st, 2009 at 11:34 am

#49 filosofxit

I reckon your explanation is pretty much on the money.

The thing that is perhaps hard to appreciate from outside the US is how much the country is motivated by fear. Fear of your neighbor, fear of the government, fear of big business, fear of losing your job, fear of poor people, fear of immigrants, fear of the devil, fear of drugs, fear of guns, fear for your kids, fear for your stuff and on and on and on.

# 54 Steve S said, on October 1st, 2009 at 11:35 am

I think we should listen to Alan Grayson’s comments on the Republican health care plan.
He should be on SNL. Very Funny!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-usmvYOPfco

# 55 soundwash said, on October 1st, 2009 at 11:41 am

You should listen to no one and do
your own research. -everything on tv is propaganda.

To even entertain the idea of
government run health care at this
time is to admit gross ignorance
of just how deep the corruption
runs in our government today.

The wholesale thievery displayed
in the banking bailouts would
look like child’s play should
we give control of our health to
our BigPharma and Petrochemical
owned government.

Our whole American way of life, let alone our constitution is being corrupted and stolen before our
eyes. Until this is addressed and resolved, their can be no hope of
any kind of universal/government *anything*, let alone health care that will cost less and offer equal to or better quality of care.
Period.

How anyone can even entertain this
idea when our creditors are running for the hills, our economy is collapsing and our government is engaged in selling off control of what few American owned assets are left to foreign interests,
is truly mind boggling.

In order to make an informed decision, you must do your own research. It is the only way you
will ever know the truth about anything.

For instance:
Nobody is going to tell you the so called “death panels” were already
made law in section 804 of the Stimulus bill unless you seek
to learn the truth yourself.

-Ignorance is not bliss, it’s
a death sentence.

-s

# 56 bobbo, where is sargosso when we need him said, on October 1st, 2009 at 11:56 am

#47–freddy==I fear you are correct.

#54–sound==our government is corrupt but that is NO REASON they shouldn’t run health care, corruption and all. Being corrupt is even a benefit.

When something is corrupt, as in everything government touches, it can be found out, rooted out, stopped, and changed–all setting the premise for the next round of outrage and corruption==but still WE THE PEOPLE have a remedy to stop all that despicable unholy corruption.

NOT SO WITH PRIVATE ENTERPRISE. What is corrupt when done by government is “free market capitalism, not to be interfered with” when done by business. Take the DEATH PANELS for instance. When the government does it, its SOCIALISM and must be stopped. When TOO BIG TO FAIL HEALTHCARE CORP does it, they are just looking after their stockholders and you can’t even sue.

A totally corrupt government isn’t the worst thing, and certainly not a debate stopper===just the opposite in all respects.

# 57 Cursor_ said, on October 1st, 2009 at 11:58 am

I’m still waiting for someone who opposes universal health care to explain to me how it is not in the interests of national security and prosperity to have a healthy population?

Still waiting…

Cursor_

# 58 Steve S said, on October 1st, 2009 at 11:58 am

# 52 freddybobs68k said,
“The thing that is perhaps hard to appreciate from outside the US is how much the country is motivated by fear.”
****
Wow! did you ever hit the nail on the head with that one sentence!
*****
-
Quote from the movie “Defending Your Life” (1991)
-
Bob Diamond: “Being from Earth, as you are, and using as little of your brain as you do, your life has pretty much been devoted to dealing with fear.”
Daniel Miller: “It has?”
Bob Diamond: “Well everybody on Earth deals with fear — that’s what little brains do.”
Daniel Miller – “What are ‘little brains’?”
Bob Diamond – “That’s what we call you folks behind your back.”

# 59 filosofxit said, on October 1st, 2009 at 11:58 am

# 52 freddtbobs68k :

Yeah I understand that it is about the money. We don’t like taxes much here in Norway as well, but as long as our politicans spends our taxmoney on things that benefit us we are happy. Only a few rich people in Norway say taxes are “stealing” and even they don’t take their money and “escapes” to a “better” country.

I understand that you have serious problems, but you are a superpower, maybe the ONLY superpower. You have some of the smartest people in the world. EVERY country admires you (BUSH dragged you down quite a bit). You just have to do what you do best – innovate. Make the good things better and leave the bad things behind.

We all love america, just not everything you do.

# 60 pokey said, on October 1st, 2009 at 11:59 am

WOW! So many of you people are SOOOOO wrong! You’re all arguing whether public health care is good or bad, and basing your arguments on current conditions in the USA without it and/or current conditions in other countries that have it. The real issue is not weather it’s good or bad, it’s how would it work IN THIS COUNTRY with THIS GOVERNMENT running it. Our current system is so broken, that it makes me want to cry. YES, WE WANT OUR HEALTH CARE FIXED!!! The problem is that the bill that they have proposed is a pile of shit that will break it far worse. It may even break this entire country… permanently. Why on earth would any of you want ANY health care plan that your government WON’T USE ON ITSELF? Our government is so corrupt right now that it should not be running anything. You people are at each other’s throats because you think the other guy’s elected official is an ass hole. But really he has no representative. Just like you. Our government gave us ALL the finger many years ago, and it’s a finger that they have convinced us to point at each other while they go on with their own selfish plans. But go on fighting amongst yourselves if you’re still stupid enough to think that your government or political party is looking out for you.

# 61 freddybobs68k said, on October 1st, 2009 at 12:06 pm

#59 filosofxit

Communication breakdown!

‘You are on the money’ = I agree with you.

My mistake for using a stupid colloquialism, and worse I can’t speak anything other than English

# 62 bobbo, where is sargosso when we need him said, on October 1st, 2009 at 12:12 pm

Filo and Freddy === miscommunicating all over the place and each making more sense than anyone else on this thread.

Can I get an Amen? NO? Tax break?

# 63 pedro said, on October 1st, 2009 at 12:18 pm

#51 Oh, I know the issue from closer than you think. It’s funny to see everyone protecting their stuff from coworker ’cause they steal things from each other & the Hospital. And not small things, also projectors & medical equip. Just like a third world country.

Guess they think it’s OK because they feel no one really pays.

# 64 ECA said, on October 1st, 2009 at 12:19 pm

reality.
to get insurance from an employer.

1. the employer must give you over 32 hours employment.
2. They must pay Workmans comp, for on the job accidents.
3. they/you must pay YOUR MEDICAL insurance.

BASIC insurance will cost you and the employer over $100 per month. If you want better insurance to COVER the family, its MORE.

According to the health bill, it will cost 7-10% of the employees wages, NO MATTER the number of hours. PAID by the employer(mostly by you and not getting the extra 0.50 per hour) AND it covers the WHOLE family.

ALSO, that if you QUIT or are FIRED or even layd off.. YOU STILL get coverage and so does your family.

The ONLY inequity we have..
is the RICH paying their fair share, as they LOVE private medicine.
THE RICH dont even pay Social security, as they have their OWN retirement funds.
Those retirement funds are PART of the corp/company and IF’ the company WANTS TO NOT PAY or ends up BROKE…these rich folks end up on SOCIAL SECURITY..(ask delta airlines about this)
WE all need to pay into the system. and then it WONT BE BROKE.

# 65 fred said, on October 1st, 2009 at 1:20 pm

#62 Bobbo

“Filo and Freddy === miscommunicating all over the place and each making more sense than anyone else on this thread.”

‘Let us make a special effort to stop communicating with each other, so we can have some conversation.’ – Mark Twain

# 66 filosofixit said, on October 1st, 2009 at 1:27 pm

#61 freddybobs68k

I should say sorry; I’m on a ENGLISH website and should have read your post one more time.

#63 Pedro

So you condemn the way we run our hospitals and “stuff” because people steal from their coworkers and hospitals? Sorry, but WTF?

BTW : I’m on my way to a heavy metal concert now. Subsidized by our state, because they think culture should be for EVERYONE!

Peace!

# 67 GF said, on October 1st, 2009 at 1:45 pm

# 48 “freddybobs68k” “Because universal health care can cost us less per capita, as it does in other countries.”
Really? You mean it will be cheaper when it becomes mandatory just like auto insurance became cheaper after it became mandatory.8-|

I’d love to pull out of Afgahnistan. That would mean that Osama has met his demise. I was really happy Obama wanted to expand the war to Pakistan so he could get Osama and we could move on. And hella yes I’m glad we’re getting out of Iraq.

# 68 Tanapangarap said, on October 1st, 2009 at 2:07 pm

It’s a good thing we have those common folk to show us what we really think. And by “we” I mean the minority of Americans from polling for public option support.

# 69 pedro said, on October 1st, 2009 at 2:53 pm

#66 Yes & No. Too much government is as bad as none at all. People there have become desensitized towards public infrastructure. Like the US, things were good but have been declining for a long time.

And government-sponsored music? Thanks, but no thanks (not to mention that the definition of culture & heavy metal kinda not go hand in hand, if you ask me)

# 70 brm said, on October 1st, 2009 at 3:57 pm

#50 filosofxit:

“And if your politicans are’nt corrupt it should benefit you.”

LOLOL

dude, this is like, exactly our problem with big gov’t. That’s why we broke off from England.

but, whatevs. Human nature has changed since then! not.

# 71 freespirit said, on October 1st, 2009 at 4:25 pm

I’m a regular visitor to Dvoraks blog and every-time this issue comes up, I’m amazed by the misinformation that Americans have to but up with – i.e. all of the propaganda /scare tatics from Health insurance company’s and some parts of US politics.

The US is the only Western industrialised country in the world that does not have universal health care. In Australia, if I have a heart attack, from the point I am pick up by the paramedics, until I am discharged from hospital I will be charged ZERO DOLLARS. My treating doctor does not have to get ‘approval’ from a insurance company or the government for my treatment.
Australia is not a ’socialist or communist country’ because we have universal health insurance, in fact our current political party in center right.
My Fiancée is American and she has universal insurance here in Australia. And guess what? Because she earns below a certain threshold, she does not pay any extra tax’s to the government(for her health care). Just think, you can be poor and have health care, which provides the same level of cover as any other person in society.
Currently, I pay the government, via my tax’s a extra
$700/yr for my health care. For the 1st time in my fiancées Adult life she health care plan.
And yes, universal health care is not perfect… but nothing ever is. In Australia health care is universal and basic right not optional and only available to those who can afford to pay.
Think outside the square guys, there is a hold world were health care is free……..

# 72 Alfred1 said, on October 1st, 2009 at 4:52 pm

#71 Non sequitur…our congress and President are not proposing we replicate your health care system here…

they are proposing a massive, government run system, that will bankrupt the country, destroy the quality of our health care, encourage all of Mexico to move here, and kill off our elderly.

That will ensure Democratic Party rule for at least 40 years.

# 73 Steve S said, on October 1st, 2009 at 5:42 pm

#72 Alfred1 said,
“they are proposing a massive, government run system, that will bankrupt the country, destroy the quality of our health care, encourage all of Mexico to move here, and kill off our elderly.”

Well Alfred1 sure helps prove the point that America is all about fear. Be it imagined or real, we pretty much just eat, drink and bath in fear.

# 74 Phydeau said, on October 1st, 2009 at 5:58 pm

http://guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/01/lobbyists-millions-obama-healthcare-reform

According to the Guardian, there are six registered healthcare industry lobbyists for every member of Congress.

The industry and interest groups have spent $380m (£238m) in recent months influencing healthcare legislation through lobbying, advertising and in direct political contributions to members of Congress. The largest contribution, totaling close to $1.5m, has gone to the chairman of the senate committee drafting the new law.

$380 Million can buy a lot of bullsh*t. And people like Alfie and pedro swallow it hook, line, and sinker.

# 75 filosofixit said, on October 1st, 2009 at 6:22 pm

# 69 Pedro :

You may say what you want, but the fact is (and I am quite drunk now) our government does not force us to listen to whatever they think is right for us (like a fascist state you are talking about would) they just want everybody in Norway to have the same opportunity to experience the same as the people in other parts of the country/world (where I come from it would cost a fortune to have a BIG band play for 40-50 people if it was not subsidized). And by the way; the fact that you don’t think heavy meatal is culture says more about you, and by our standards you would be the fascist in this case.

If they were in fact fascists, as you say, they would dictate that heavy metal is not culture and therefore give us Josh Groban or whatever or nothing at all.

MY POINT is that doing something other then what your right wing lobyists are saying does not mean it TAKES AWAY your freedom!

I REALLY apologize for my bad english and that I am drunk. I have to go to bed now, I have go to work tomorrow. My fascist state has dictated to my employer that he can not fire me because I got hangover tomorrow…

PEACE!

# 76 filosofixit said, on October 1st, 2009 at 6:25 pm

To everyone : I really am drunk now. Please pay no attention to me

SORRY!

# 77 Alfred1 said, on October 1st, 2009 at 7:23 pm

#73 U fear the facts…the bills before congress, which they won’t read or post online so we can read, will result in euthanasia, state funded abortion, and massive immigration from Mexico as the illegals are made legal to make them eligible for coverage.

All of them result in rationing health care…and in that scenario, the elderly die so the illegal immigrant can live.

# 78 Rick Cain said, on October 1st, 2009 at 8:06 pm

I think its just underpaid unknown actors in the 2nd video who are bitter about their overpaid and more talented actors in the first video.

# 79 Brknarrow_@yahoo.com said, on October 1st, 2009 at 8:28 pm

All this talk about charity being the “Christian” thing to do . How charitabe is it to give money at gun point or the threat of jatime?

# 80 m.c. in l.v. said, on October 1st, 2009 at 10:41 pm

Hey filosofixit, can you take Alfie with you next time you go to one of your Norwegian heavy metal concerts? I’m sure he’d love these guys:

http://laweekly.com/slideshow/view/192544/1

Good luck with that hangover and your boss tomorrow! LOL

# 81 Alfred1 said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 3:40 am

Hey filosofixit

A thousand Norwegians chased through the weeds, by 3 Swedes.

True or not?

# 82 Alfred1 said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 3:46 am

If the Statists allowed us to drill for oil, and reap trillions in tax dollars, to fund health care…perhaps the opposition to it would be much less…

But no…they insist we all pay through the nose, even the young who, quite frankly, don’t need health care…

They will be burdened supplying aging liberals with cosmetic surgery and penis implants for their ugly women…

I am quite certain most youth would like to pass on that “opportunity”…but NO, you statists will then fine 25 thousand dollars, and if they don’t pay, imprison them.

Imagine, not paying the penalty for liberal promiscuity, by aging baby boomers, keeping them supplied with the AIDS medicines needed to keep those turds alive, warrents Jail time, right after one leaves college, that Obama paid for.

# 83 Alfred1 said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 3:53 am

Rather than bump off the elderly by cutting 500 billion from Medicare, why not waste the aging Baby boomers with AIDS, who were bent over up and down the daisy chain, in every bath house in San Fran, and the LEFT Coast…

That would save trillions of dollars…

It is true, once baby boomer liberals with aids and other STDs are bumped off, and trillions of dollars in medical costs are saved…our center right country might decide to allow the free market continue to serve us well with the best health care in the world.

# 84 NOT Alfred1 said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 4:30 am

Alfred1, the best reason abortion is legal.

If you were shown to those currently opposing a woman’s right to control her own body, there would never be any argument about it.

# 85 pedro said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 4:39 am

#71 said: “… if I have a heart attack, from the point I am pick up by the paramedics, until I am discharged from hospital I will be charged ZERO DOLLARS.”

… But then said: “…Because she earns below a certain threshold, she does not pay any extra tax’s to the government(for her health care)…”

So, explain me again how this is “free”? Unless you can explain to me how paying a healthcare tax equals not to paying an insurance premium, you’re out of touch with how the world works.

#74 Working hard for another day with extra ration, I see. The only one eating what the masters are feeding here is you. And not content with that, you want more. Keep fooling yourself.

#75 I have not said that your country is a “facist” state. What I said was that too much government is a huge risk, as it is letting lose a bunch of Corp. morons doing whatever they want. A balance has to exist in order to stop abuses from any one side.

Yes, right now your government can balance itself between politicians, but there’s too much of a chance for government abuse.

And for as much as I find heavy metal fun, culture it ain’t.

If you want to play in front of 40 or 50 people, you can do that in a bar, no need for a government subsidy. Now, if that music is a hobby rather than a way of life (this would be closer to culture), then I understand your need for daddy government’s help.

And congratulations on having a government that allows you to be so irresponsible. It’s good to know that you can have no sense of responsibility and that your union (or was that government?) supports you. I know your company is going to be very happy on how productive you’ll be with that hangover.

BTW, I’ll be going to your country again pretty soon (not thanks to a government), to get misinformed once more.

# 86 Alfred1 said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 4:44 am

#84 Testy, aren’t we…allowing STD AIDS infected Liberals pay for own medicine, or die…saves trillions…which can then be spent giving ACORN and illegals free medical care…which they will promptly bankrupt by trying to get a prescription high.

I think it just…

# 87 Kintaar said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 5:36 am

The title should begin with “Whom should you listen to,” not “Who should you listen to…”

The pronoun “who” needs to be in the objective case because it is the object of the preposition “to.” One way to recognize this is to change the title into an independent clause (like a statement) by rearranging the words. “You should listen to whom…”

# 88 Alfred1 said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 5:47 am

#87 That’s nice, now back to fact Obama wants the young to pay for penis implants in ugly liberal women…

What do you think about that…if they don’t, they get fined $25,000, and if they don’t pay that, jail.

Isn’t that nice.

They will also pay for AIDS treatment…while they are complaining about fat people, and those who smoke, how about those who suck dicks, against Government advisory it wasn’t good for their health?

# 89 freddybobs68k said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 5:51 am

#88 Alfred1

Wow.

I now understand where you are coming from and its not a happy place.

# 90 jbenson2 said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 5:54 am

freddybobs68k proudly claims by using anecdotal comments:
How do I know that? Because America pays more for worse health care. And I know that because I’ve experienced it – _actually living in other countries_.

Wow! Big Whoop!

Well, two can play that game. I worked in Northamptonshire England (Northants) for a few years and saw the horrendous queues for the local dentist. I’ve seen the nurses wearing sweaters in hospital trying to stay warm. I’ve seen the outrageous 18-month waits my employees had to endure for elective surgery. I’ve heard the doctors complain about the restrictions they work under.

When hypocritical multi-millionaires like Will Ferrell sarcastically complain about other multi-millionaires because they didn’t like how they made their money, I know the wacko-left has lost the argument.

Ferrell thinks it’s OK to make hundreds of millions of dollars speaking the words other people wrote on camera, but running a company that pays for other people’s health care should be something that only earns one just enough to get by.

# 91 freddybobs68k said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 6:30 am

#90 jbenson2

Whats good for the goose… If its ‘Wow! Big Whoop!’ then why recant your apparently worthless ‘experiences’? Can’t have it both ways.

The fact is that universal health care as practiced in the majority of the industrial world is cheaper and provides better care to the majority of people. Thats what all the studies show including the WHOs show.

And that backs up my experiences, of both living in the Uk and the US. It also backs up my extended families experience – who live in the Uk.

It also backs up my experiences in working and staying in Germany, Spain and Switzerland.

You can get all mad about it and stamp your feet, but there it is.

So if you discount all experience other than your own as worthless – then perhaps you’d like to show the studies and the explanation of how what the US has works better – in efficiency and health care provided to the majority of people – to the rest of the industrialized world.

Now that’d be interesting.

# 92 Alfred1 said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 6:34 am

#89 Just being fair…Obamacare will tax/punish/imprison fat people, for not losing weight…smokers, for smoking…anyone who doesn’t eat the gruel liberals say is good for them, when they get sick…they will be punished…

Probably with long waits…so they die.

But AIDS infected people were just as guilty of ignoring the warnings…but as just about all of them are liberals…they will get Cadillac treatment.

So also transgender folks…they must be accommodated… otherwise you must be a right wing extremist.

If we must force the young to pay for our health care, enslaving them…then it should be fair…

Just as fat people, smokers, must die because they ignored all the warnings…so must the STD infected…they ignored similar warnings.

Its only fair…

To everyone but the young that is…good thing we aren’t young anymore…right? Imagine if we had to pay thousands a year for old people’s health care!

That would have ruined the American experience for us! We would have felt like slaves….aren’t you glad we dodged that bullet?

# 93 Alfred1 said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 6:37 am

Gotta hand it to baby boomers, not content with bankrupting the country, saddling their children and grandchildren’s children with impossible debt…now we are going to make THEM pay for OUR health care…

Aren’t we cool?

# 94 freddybobs68k said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 6:40 am

# 92 Alfred1

That’s great and all, but if its true – why does the rest of the industrialized world have universal healthcare and in doing so live longer, healthier lives. And pay less?

If what your saying is correct – surely, surely it should cost much much more, and people should live much shorter lives?

Assume I’m stupid. Spell it out for me. I want to understand how it works.

# 95 Alfred1 said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 7:04 am

#94 Your argument would be sound IF we weren’t comparing apples and oranges…they don’t taste the same.

What is being proposed in Congress is not like the rest of the industrialized world…

Forget what Obama said about “his bill,” that doesn’t exist…everything he said about health care…is unreality.

The various bills being considered, are all big Government boondoggles…that will fail to deliver, and bankrupt us…

We have the most incompetent representatives this nation has ever had…it would be best for all of us, if they just went away and did nothing…then perhaps the economy would be allowed to recover…instead of being beat down with all the new taxes these incompetents want to levy against it.

They can’t read the bills they sign, because they entire is beyond their intellectual capacity…

Having them do health care is like a chimp fixing your computer…the same net result will be achieved.

# 96 freddybobs68k said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 7:31 am

#95 Alfred1

‘Your argument would be sound IF we weren’t comparing apples and oranges…they don’t taste the same.

What is being proposed in Congress is not like the rest of the industrialized world…’

Okay fair point. So can I assume that you would then be for it if it was something more like in other industrialized countries?

I mean I agree, in that what I understand of the bill it’s half arsed. And that’s a damn shame.

But I want to get this straight – assuming we had a bill for universal health care more like other industrialized countries, that was short enough so the average person (including members of congress) could understand it, you’d be for that? Ie – in principal you are for it?

And if not why not? Because in your previous mail if I’m reading it correctly – you think it is better, its only obamas ‘bill’ and the ‘incompetent’ representatives which are the problem.

# 97 Alfred1 said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 8:33 am

#95 Yes, I can support real health care…

What our incompetent congress is proposing is not about health care…its about their power.

They are the most corrupt (and incompetent) congress we have ever had…I have no doubt they will bankrupt the country just as they bankrupted the economy…refusing to enforce existing regulation…for money…and spending money…for kick backs…

They spend spend spend, because overseas, they gain property property property…where the FBI can’t go.

Republicans in general, conservatives in particular, are not against health care reform…

We have excellent ideas how to accomplish that, WITHOUT GIVING UP OUR FREEDOM, and without bankrupting the country:

A Principled Path to Rational Health Care Reform

Congress will soon unveil legislation to reform the health care system. The policies outlined by President Obama during his campaign and those being discussed in Congress would centralize control over the health care system in Washington.
By Nina Owcharenko…

The Obama Health Care Plan: More Power to Washington

Senator Barack Obama’s health care plan is laden with new regulations and government authority that would leave Americans with even less control of their health care dollars than they exercise today. A better course would be to transfer control of health care dollars to individuals and families, both to empower individuals to make informed choices and to enable the marketplace to respond rapidly to their needs and wants.
By Robert E. Moffit, Ph.D. and Nina Owcharenko
http://heritage.org/LeadershipForAmerica/health-care.cfm

# 98 smittybc said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 9:31 am

#94
Well you are just wrong. So I will spell it out for you. Life expectancy is not a good indicator of judging any medical care system. There is a lot that goes into the life expectancy number that isn’t really health care related. You need to look at the system when someone gets sick to see how the system works. Read this paper from the University of Penn. repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context=psc_working_papers

According to the World Health Organization it’s accurate that we spend the most money than any other nation, but also according to the WHO the US is #1 in patient responsiveness. This means we spend the least time waiting for care, and that contributes to a more efficient and effective recovery. It also means we are the most responsive to patients needs in choice of provider. We recover more often, go
back to work and continue our careers for longer periods. This is part of the reason Americans are the most productive people on the planet.

The US totally dominates Europe on all kinds of cancer survival rates. Prostate Cancer for example mortality is 184 percent higher in Canada than in the United States, 604 percent higher in the U.K., and 457 percent higher in Norway (for poster #14). When contrasted with some of the same developed countries (Canada and Britain), Americans have better access to new medical technologies as well, including those that fight cancer.

We also have access to the all the advantages of the latest technology. Nearly 80% of all global drug development occurs in the US, which may be why our cancer survival rates are higher and we have more people benefiting from new medications. In fact, we’re responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations. Now many of our friends around the world refuse to pay for this drug development and arbitrarily price fix drugs or threaten to breach the drug patent, which does cause us to shoulder more of this cost. That’s a problem that nobody is talking about.

But leave it to a leftist to look at our situation and say “Yep it’s broken.” Sure there are problems but none will be solved by having the government take it over. One thing is clear though. It’s certain that the people that will for sure benefit from a takeover are the 500 some odd politicians in Washington that ironically will not subject themselves to the same system. Does that sound like it’s on the up and up?

# 99 pedro said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 9:37 am

#98 Get ready to be called wingnut and other niceties the lefty loons use here to try repel reality

# 100 bobbo, don't confuse a LIEBERTARIAN with facts said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 9:47 am

98–shittty==all you have identified is that if you have money, you can spend more of it in the USA. Life Expectancy is made up of many factors. If we excel the world in our healthcare, then could you identify the other factors we fail on? Clean Water? Vaccines?==well, maybe so given thinking like yours. What other factor does the USA do so poorly on that it drags down our world class healthcare? Hummmmmm?????

You just demonstrate one more nauseous time that “you have yours, so screw everyone else.”

Pedro’s pretty smart, and you have him fooled, but not the average liberal who can tell shit from shinola.

# 101 freddybobs68k said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 9:57 am

#98 smittybc

‘Well you are just wrong.’

Really? How so?

You don’t seem to be denying the US system costs more. You also don’t seem to want to take into account that it costs less per person when everybody is covered.

So the only thing you are arguing is the quality of health care. Okay thats fine – I mean I agree you can get great health care in the US, you just have pay much more for it.

Therefore you can have everybody have good health with universal healthcare. It will cost you less. AND if you want additionally great healthcare, you can get additional health insurance. That is broadly how it works in other industrialized countries. Moreover – in the Uk you can I believe get money back from the government if you do want to go solely private.

So whats the beef? Hows the US system superior again?

In the paper you cite – it also agrees health care in America costs significantly more. And then argues the results are at best ‘comparable’. Even if that were true – and I think the study is warped as it presumably only applies to people with health care – in best case your argument based on the paper is in America we pay towards twice as much for the same result.

I think paying twice much for _at best_ the same result amounts to ‘broken’.

# 102 jbenson2 said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 11:08 am

freddybobs68k still clings to his outdated beliefs:

Freddy, get with the times and check out the news today.

The future of Obamacare? Just look to England to see how socialized medicine really works (or does not work).

You have to pay more and work longer and get inferior coverage.

The British Free health boondoggle is forcing a radical reform of pensions and a rise in the national retirement age.

Just peachy! Right Freddy?

http://bit.ly/2nIB2Z

# 103 freddybobs68k said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 11:40 am

#102 jbenson2

So you’re not going to argue the points. Just avoid them.

Idiotic. Soooo lets take what your saying as true.

In the Uk they pay 8% of GDP. Note their GDP per capita is less.

In the US it’s 16% (from the paper from smittybc).

So they pay less. Dramatically less than they do in the US.

And yet you. You jbenson2 – apparently the man of the minute – figure that that has implications on pensions, and therefore Uk health care is a ‘British Free health boondoggle’. Err doesn’t that mean we’re screwed – as we pay more? So good point – the Uk has problems with paying for it even though they pay less than half of what we do. Brilliant.

Anyways. Why not get back to the crux of the issue. Which is that the other industrialized nations pay significantly less and at worst get similar health care (assuming smittybc’s skewed paper) but generally – by child mortality, length of life etc get better health care.

I never described it as perfect.

And then the article you cite. Okay – so why do you think the Uk (and the US for that matter) has all of these problems.?You may not be aware of this but a large section of the Uk economy is the financial sector. Far more than the US. Recently you may have been aware of an economic crisis – arguably created by the financial industry. The Uk has been hit comparatively hard because the financial sector is a larger part of the Uk economy.

So do you want to try and figure out what the root cause of what is going on in the uk? Why financially it may be struggling? I’ll give you a clue – its not the NHS. Why + how can I be so sure?

BECAUSE IT COSTS MUCH LESS THAN IT DOES IN THE US.

Less than half per capita.

So lets try again.

Universal health care as practiced in other industrialized nations, costs significantly less, everybody is covered, and they arguably get better healthcare (or worst case as good as if you take smittybcs paper at face value).

Why do you think the US cannot achieve the same? Why don’t you think this is a good thing to have? I mean – whats the problem? I don’t get it.

# 104 jbenson2 said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 11:44 am

Freddybaby

Just like you have done, I presented anecdotal information, facts and details. The difference is that I have supplied current and up-to-date links, not hackneyed cliches that are spit out over and over by the liberal left.

# 105 freddybobs68k said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 12:06 pm

#104 jbenson2

‘The difference is that I have supplied current and up-to-date links, not hackneyed cliches that are spit out over and over by the liberal left.’

I feel I have to constantly repeat myself – because it’s not refuted it seems – universal health care costs LESS, covers EVERYONE, and arguably provides BETTER HEALTHCARE.

Stop flapping in the wind – and come up with a coherent argument, and I’ll be happy to hear it. If you’ve got this great apparently ‘up to date’ evidence to refute the point then lets see it.

Prove the statement wrong. I’m happy to change or modify my view on new evidence. So bring it on.

# 106 freddybobs68k said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 12:19 pm

#104 jbenson2

And whilst I’m at it – if you want to win an argument you need to be able to argue.

This is how an argument works. I make a point, and then you make a counter point, and if I can counter that I will do and so on and on, until hopefully some conclusion is reached.

In this forum you bring up a counter point to the original assertion. I make a counter point to that and then you give up.

Its not exactly convincing stuff. And certainly not winning material.

# 107 smittybc said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 12:29 pm

#101

You are wrong because what you state is just not the case. Insuring more people will cost more. Having the government take over health care will result in lower quality of care and ultimately cost more because government is massively inefficient, there has never been an economic model that suggests otherwise. Assurance Maladie (French care) ranked overall #1 by the WHO has been in the red since 1989.

I give you mortalities on cancer (primarily because of how cancers are collated more precisely between countries) and you say they those rates are comparable. I think 200-500 percent mortality differences are significant, you don’t. That’s fine, we disagree.

If you are looking to control costs, you have to look at what is driving costs. The main drivers for costs are:

1) The indiscriminate and wasteful use of technology and testing.
2) Our prices for drugs, devices, and services that are dramatically higher than in other industrialized nations (primarily because we as consumers place a high demand on our providers for these).
3) Administrative overhead.
4) Defensive medicine.

Two of these three things are demand side problems and are very hard to correct. Certainly if the government took it over, it would be harder to correct.

I accept the premise that our health care prices and overall costs will not likely ever be as low as other industrialized nations simply because of our higher GDP (economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/14/why-does-us-health-care-cost-so-much-part-i/) . But the GDP gap explains only part of it.

But we are just kidding ourselves to think that the government will give us the savings we need to maintain the current quality but reduce the price. This is simply not how government health care has ever worked. All we will accomplish is making matters even worse when costs continue to explode and the new promises we will have made to those today become unaffordable in ways that will make our current health care system look like a bargain.

If we want to get real, it will take a head-on assault on these above 4 problematic villains. That will likely require us to deal more directly with the demand side as well as the supply side. The politicians have no chance at a solution.

If you are really interested (unlike bobbo the child who is only interested in dogmatic idiocy hence I rarely respond to the drivel) in savings in healthcare you should listen to this:http://www.rwjf.org/pr/product.jsp?id=35368

# 108 freddybobs68k said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 12:47 pm

#107 smittybc

Okay – that’s interesting + I’ll check out the link. Hopefully the thread won’t be dead before I can see it, think about it and respond.

# 109 meetsy said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 2:27 pm

this all sounds so much like when they broke up Ma Bell (for our own good). Prices skyrocketed, service degraded, and now the various carriers are getting away with murder. Get one of those “special offer” mailers for some low phone service, lately? They say $19.95 unlimited nights and minutes. So, sign up…and what do you get? A bill for $59 bucks. They add in this tax, that tax, this service fee, that service fee, blah blah blah. That was illegal when the phone service was REGULATED.
Our health system is already broken, but taking a hammer to it and breaking it further (to benefit whom? The insurance giants? The for-profit hospital foundations) is not going to help us. It’s a joke, and a sham. If it weren’t there wouldn’t be so much noise, and so much talking president head on the airwaves.

# 110 meetsy said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 2:30 pm

#50…try using your argument with NO HEALTH INSURANCE.
I can’t afford $300 a month for myself and another $200 each for my kids. Seriously, dude, health care costs more than food, and if I have to chose between that and food, guess what wins out.
You cannot chose any doc/hospital you want if you have no way of paying…..and, if you have assets, the hospital won’t talk to you, because they can get government money for you. You have to either have enough money for insurance, or be without any money.

# 111 tedknaz said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 3:50 pm

Fucking right wing nutjobs drive me crazy.

# 112 pedro said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 8:52 pm

#111 I feel for ya. Lefty loons do the same to me.

# 113 bobbo, actually an expert Chef AND health care Executive said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 9:30 pm

#107–smitty==accurate slurs aside, that is one of your better posts. Expertly twisted to remain irrelevant, but still pretty good.

Freddy–please post back with your evaluation. I’m not going to listen to a 78mb file. Smitty advertises it as about how to save money in health care. “Traditionally” thats not what RWJF is all about and the web page that links to the audio program is not about savings==so I smell a pile of red herring.

smitty–if you have the attention span, let me deconstruct your argument and demonstrate why I scorn you. You say: “You are wrong because what you state is just not the case. Insuring more people will cost more.” ==== NOT once we get rid of the for profit system and replace it with government run healthcare. Those stats are in. USA pays 16% of GDP and leaves 45 Million uncovered. OF COURSE, if you extended THAT program to everyone the system will cost more but that is no one’s plan except the Repuglicans pushing their masters bankruptcy plan for America. The high cancer survival rates in the USA don’t factor in the number of people who die from untreated cancer because that is a “chronic condition” that you cannot get care for thru the Emergency Room–cancer is not an emergency. The Repuglican Health Care plan applies==go Home and die Quickly.

What I don’t understand is why someone smart enough to obviously avoid facts and conclusions that get in the way of a desired outcome as you do is not smart enough not to. I can assume greed as a paid shill of the Ins Co’s, but I can’t assume stupidity.

Real puzzzler.

# 114 bobbo, actually an expert Chef AND health care Executive said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 10:17 pm

So, not a Friday Night Drinker like I used to be, I started to listen to the RWF audio program.

At 2:40 the bias appeared: “Aligning Key Players” in the health care arena which included “the payers.”

Any presentation wishing to Align the Payers of health care with anything but the dust bin is not worth listening to.

The first 2 minutes pretty well confirm what Freddy has been posting and the rest of the non-shill world already knows. The USA health care system sucks in full view of 37 other health care systems that are up, running, working, satisfying most of their citizens.

Only in america.

# 115 Thomas said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 11:27 pm

I’m waiting for the left to explain why this must be done at the Federal level. Obama seems to want to turn the entire industry on its head without any existing US system as a basis. There is nothing stopping the States from implementing a single payer system.

Right now, there are only one or two States that have any kind of health care system in place and in every case it is bankrupting the State and in no case has it reduced cost. Given that the US is already bankrupt, what makes anyone think that a similar plan won’t bankrupt the US? I know that France for example, is dealing with massive budget issues directly related to their health care offering.

Say it until you finally get it: the US is B-R-O-K-E. No money would be an improvement. We have less than no money. A bum on the street has a higher net worth than the US. We are trillions of dollars in the red. When the total national debt including all obligations like social security is less than 10%, then, maybe, we might, possibly consider discussing some sort of universal health care coverage. Until that time, the best solution is to pass health care legislation to foster competition, improve regulation of insurance companies, encourage the States to implement some sort of plan to cover their constituents so that in the future we might have something on which to base a Federal solution and most importantly: STOP SPENDING MONEY WE DON’T HAVE.

# 116 meetsy said, on October 2nd, 2009 at 11:42 pm

but..if we didn’t spend money that we didn’t have, we’d have no money at all.

# 117 ECA said, on October 3rd, 2009 at 12:27 am

Food for thought.

This is by far the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation I have ever read. His references to history are accurate and clear. Not long, easy to understand, and well worth the read. The author of this email is Paul E. Marek.

A German’s View on Islam

A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism. “Very few people were true Nazis”, he said, “but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen”. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp, and the Allies destroyed my factories”.

We are told again and again by “experts” and “talking heads” that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectra of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.

The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder or honor-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.
The hard quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the “silent majority”, is cowed and extraneous.
Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

China’s huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.
The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a war mongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.
And who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were “peace loving”?

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don’t speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.
Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late. As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts; the fanatics who threaten our way of life.
Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this email without sending it on, is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand. So, extend yourself a bit and send this on and on and on! Let us hope that thousands, worldwide, read this and think about it, and send it on before it’s too late.
The first thing the fanatics will do to the silent majority is to disarm them.

WE NEVER LEARN FROM OUR HISTORY!!!

# 118 fred said, on October 3rd, 2009 at 1:43 am

#117 ECA – History

Thank you for that. Probably your best contribution to this blog, ever.

# 119 bobbo, actually an expert Chef AND health care Executive said, on October 3rd, 2009 at 2:14 am

#117–ECA==yea good post. Kinda explains the Repuglican Party being taken over by their extremist nutbag hard core of religionist extremists and their unending attempt to force their views on the Good Old USA.

How come its that same group that has all the guns?

# 120 fred said, on October 3rd, 2009 at 3:28 am

#117 ECA

- however, in the interests of accuracy, you should have pointed out that the original article ended with the words”the fanatics who threaten our way of life”

The last 9 lines of your post, including the comment about the silent majority being disarmed, have been added by someone else.

# 121 pedro said, on October 3rd, 2009 at 4:50 am

#117 said: “Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.”

You want history lessons? I’ll give you history lessons.

The good people of those countries have always spoken. The problem is people pay attention to them when is too late.

Is the people outside those countries, who could’ve made a difference, who didn’t do shit when they were supposed to. Modern day events more than support this. This is why we say the UN is worthless.

So, I give you a “close, but no cigar” rating.

#119 You’re right. That also explains why the Dems. have been taken over by lefty loons.

# 122 bobbo, actually an expert Chef AND health care Executive said, on October 3rd, 2009 at 6:55 am

#121–Pedro==another excellent comment. You are on a roll today. Did you just read a book or something?

# 123 right said, on October 3rd, 2009 at 8:47 am

This is my health care plan:

http://tiny.cc/B2FmU

Tell me if yours is better or just different, I pay $54/month (includes dental).

# 124 pedro said, on October 3rd, 2009 at 9:00 am

#122 Yeap, Cat in the Hat.

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