What Kind Of Health Care Reform Should We Have?

Published on November 9th, 2009

Posted by Uncle Dave in Health Care, Politics, economy, medical

The House barely passed a bill that the Senate doesn’t like in it’s current form. Lots of people on all sides want it to either do more or do less or do it completely differently.

Since our current system doesn’t work what with continually rising costs that are unsustainable, millions uninsured, the country’s financial health in bad shape and on and on, what should we do? With so many aspects and facets to the problem to consider, which ones are most important?

From minor tweaks to scrapping it all and starting over, where do you stand?

Look at the question from two perspectives. First, what would you do if you could wave a magic wand and start over without politicians being involved? In other words, the health care system of your dreams.

Second, given where we are and the idiotic political realities of the US these days, what are the politically and monetarily feasible changes to what we now have that you would like to see?

111 users responded in " What Kind Of Health Care Reform Should We Have? "

Subscribe to this post comment rss or trackback url

# 1 Dallas said, on November 9th, 2009 at 5:34 am

Answer highly depends on who you ask.

Ask a liberal and you get: “Let’s look at options and tradeoffs and what makes sense to make the system better. ie. “.a more perfect system..”

Ask a conservative : ” Leave everything alone. It’s perfect cause we’re perfect. Also, that’s how mommie and grand papa had it for years”

# 2 bobbo, international pastry chef and healthcare expert said, on November 9th, 2009 at 5:43 am

1. “Look at the question from two perspectives. First, what would you do if you could wave a magic wand and start over without politicians being involved? In other words, the health care system of your dreams.” /// I would like EXACTLY WHAT WE HAVE TODAY with the magic wand providing everyone with enough money to buy all the insurance they wanted. Hell, SCREW THAT==wave that wand hard enough so that everyone can just buy their health care a la carte when they need it. Full Boat. All good doctors do deserve to be millionaires. That should make everyone but LIEBERTARIANS happy who can only be so if someone else is unhappy. That schadenfreude feeling is confused with LovingLiberty.

2. If the magic wand will not work with the dirty capitalistic system to provide BASIC HUMAN(E) SERVICES TO ALL, then I would go with straight up SOCIALISM with as much healthcare as possible and formal death panels to make the resource allocation.

3 “Second, given where we are and the idiotic political realities of the US these days, what are the politically and monetarily feasible changes to what we now have that you would like to see?” /// I think the bed rock of health care in America is the 10 Commandments and no one got sick in America when we started the day on our knees if deep refective prayers. To that end, all we need is guns.

# 3 DWY said, on November 9th, 2009 at 5:55 am

Well, IMO the current system works up to a point and then if an event happens, the wheels fall off. I tend to get decent care when I need it and have been lucky to have a job with insurance: it covers the basics and generally I don’t get sick.

However, the rule of “don’t get sick” seems to still apply.

For example, my daughter was sick a few years ago and with what I considered very good insurance, ended up 25k in debt just for the medication she had to take.

We were able to pay the $100 specialist co-pay for the visits out of pocket, but the pills were $160 per pill and she had to take 3 a day. What’s insane is the pills were actually $300 per pill without insurance!

# 4 Phydeau said, on November 9th, 2009 at 5:56 am

Good luck asking wingnuts what they’re for. They’re whining soreheads still pissed off that Obama won. The Republicans really can’t come up with anything they’re in favor of. If they did, they’d have to work with the Democrats to get something passed, and if something useful got passed, the Democrats would score points, being the party in power.

The Republicans want the country to suffer under the Democrats so they can win in 2010. They don’t care how many people lose their jobs, their homes, their health, their lives.

The Republicans don’t want anything good to happen to America until they get back in power. Plain and simple.

# 5 tomdennis said, on November 9th, 2009 at 6:03 am

Healthcare for everyone whether they like it or not. We have roads across America whether we like them or not.
The average working week before Reaganomics was 40 hours with anything over 8 hours overtime. Today the average working week is 33 hours with young mothers working at McDonald’s in the mornings and the local hospital at night.
America is good for business and the workers be damned is in the minds of our executives.

# 6 Mr Anderson said, on November 9th, 2009 at 6:08 am

Cut out the costs, don’t feed it more money.

If the doctors waste so much money on filling out all the different forms for the insurance companies, create an organization to make one form for all.

# 7 srgothard said, on November 9th, 2009 at 6:23 am

If I had a magic wand, I would do away with the existence of any government-supported health care in the first place. Unfortunately, there are generations of people who are used to the government providing expensive services who would suffer. Realistically, those have have to be phased out over decades at this point.

With or without a magic wand, I would drop the red tape but add tort reform. Allow insurance companies to produce hundreds of different plans for different needs and wants and risk factors. Allow sales across state lines. Let a thousand flowers bloom. If you want to punish insurance companies, make them compete. That’s how you force anyone or anything to become its best. Force competition and only the best will survive. Think about electronics or clothing or hair stylists. We don’t have government-sponsored ipods or hair cuts and the competition is fierce, which is always better for the consumer.

# 8 brm said, on November 9th, 2009 at 6:26 am

Get as close as possible to eliminating the need for insurance, and making what insurance we do need affordable.

Nothing in the health care market is sold at market price – this is the number one problem with the system.

Whether we keep some government subsidies (ex: Medicare) or eliminate them completely (over time, can’t do it right away obviously) we need to figure out exactly how much this stuff is really supposed to cost.

Getting us out of the habit of using insurance for *every* health care expense, for routine visits, is probably the single best “reform” available.

And before everyone blathers about how it’s too expensive for people to pay out of pocket for everything that’s not catastrophic care, note that this would be a gradual process. I’m not an expert, but within a decade sounds right.

# 9 Eric Morris said, on November 9th, 2009 at 6:30 am

I would like to see,

1. State – to – State Competition. The liberal Democrats talk 90 to nothing about having choice with a “public option” but refuse, on all that is holy, to open up state lines for real competitive competition. This singular move would lower cost and improve healthcare quality and efficiency. Look at it this way the people of California only have the ability to choose between 6 issuance companies, open up state-to-state, you now have the choice of 1,200 (including Georgia’s with the lowest cost at around $200 on average).

2. Tort Reform! First and foremost we need to allow Doctors to be able to practice medicine, not “defensive medicine.” Defensive medicine is accruing at every hospital and independent office across America because of the rampant increases in malpractice lawsuits. If Doctors cannot follow their gut instinct, if the Doctors have to put the patient through every test when they have the answer, for fear of malpractice lawsuits, they become defensive and cannot provide substantial healthcare. There is a simple way to remove 99.99% of these lawsuits – it’s called “tort reform.” Tort Reform will limit the ability to file claims, and caps the awards of damages. It also would provide protection to Doctors against frivolous lawsuits.

Now, I am only at the good old age of 17 but these are two common sense solutions that would lower the cost while increasing the standard of care. It baffles me as to why this has not already been done.

# 10 Rabble Rouser said, on November 9th, 2009 at 6:31 am

Plain and simple.
Government regulated health care for each and every citizen. Paid for by the government, and administrated by the government.
Insurance companies then could not hike rates to the sky, could not put people into bankruptcy, and could not reject people for existing health conditions.

The rest of the world has something like this, which is one reason why it costs more to produce things in the US.

The only way to make sure that care is given to ALL, is to get the insurance companies out of the mix. After all, corporations are not concerned with giving you care, they are concerned with making profits.

# 11 Morn said, on November 9th, 2009 at 6:43 am

Remove the age limit on medicare.. Make it available instead for people that fail an income and asset test, lets say income of $40000 or so.
Ban denial of insurance for preexisting conditions.
Done.

# 12 Olo Baggins of Bywater said, on November 9th, 2009 at 6:45 am

Waving my wand…eliminate prescription drug advertisements. Extend drug patents a couple more years. Initiate ownership rules preventing local monopolies on hospitals and clinics. Standardize forms (good one, Mr A.). Eliminate anti-trust exemptions. Make medical lobbying illegal.

Not sure how to do this, but costs won’t come down until ALL people start to feel the real cost of health care. Insurance insulates us too much, allowing providers to charge whatever they want. That cannot continue.

# 13 Benjamin said, on November 9th, 2009 at 6:49 am

The very best way to make health care affordable is to pass some kind of malpractice tort reform that caps non-economic damages. This would reduce the cost of malpractice insurance and thus cut the cost of healthcare.

Also the cost of health insurance should be deductible. Employers should also be able to deduct the amount they spend on employee heath insurance from their taxes.

Don’t say that the Republican’s aren’t interested in health reform. They proposed all these and more, but the Democrats block it. The Democrats actually had the locks changed so that the Republicans couldn’t get into the meeting to come up with a bill that was acceptable to everyone. Is it a surprise that the Republicans are against the bill in its current form that they were purposely locked out of.

Obama is actually causing more Americans to become uninsured by causing the largest unemployment rate since the depression. If you don’t work, you lose your insurance. He needs to create an environment where businesses hire more people. He is not doing so.

# 14 soundwash said, on November 9th, 2009 at 6:53 am

NONE!

-until the public en-mass gets a clue and realizes we must address/stop the rampant corruption throughout the entire congress and whitehouse (and dissolve The FED and re-establish the treasury to coin our own money) that has gone on for decades, any health bill passed will just further the corruption at tax payer expense.

IF YOU MUST: Interim fix: just stop/address the government & hospital level fraud in medicare/medicaid and give everyone *access to both*

I have both *straight* medicare & medicaid and it rocks. (no HMO bull attached, that is what ruined them)

(medicaid pays the medicare deductible..work the system and the system will work for you. Simple)

this health care bill is just a part of the NWO scam.

The system needed already exists.

How many times does BigGov need to reinvent the wheel before people get a clue? -that they are *voting* to be being ripped off blind?

The only thing congress practices these days is the art of illusion.

wake up -and turn off your tv.

-s

# 15 sargasso said, on November 9th, 2009 at 7:09 am

You have a health care system that is run for the sole benefit of insurance companies, not patients. The answer is simple. Eliminate patients.

# 16 TheMAXX said, on November 9th, 2009 at 7:10 am

The only way to save money is to have single payer universal healthcare. More competition means higher costs when it comes to insurance since 1 big pool of customers can negotiate lower prices for care and medicines than many small pools of fewer customers. 1 large pool also is better at spreading out risk. Preventative care for everyone saves money. 1 payer saves money for each doctor’s office and hospital who now have to deal with different contracts with different companies so much more bureaucracy now than needed with 1 payer. Profits also have to be made which is more money out of the customer’s pocket to be divided amongst the investors. Single payer works in so many other countries that it is silly to think it wouldn’t work here. Why people want to keep paying the most for the worst quality as compared to the other developed countries is beyond me.

# 17 Postman said, on November 9th, 2009 at 7:14 am

I think it is funny and tragic how retardlicans fail to learn and ignore basic facts.

First off… Various states have already tried tort reform and it hasn’t reduced costs anywhere it has been tried. Anyone still arguing for tort reform at this point in history is either ignorant of the facts or just being obtuse.

Second, no amount of free market reform will fix healthcare, because that is
how the insurance companies make money. They charge you as much as they can then they deny you care. As for profit enterprises that is their imparitive.

Third, selling insurance accross state lines will have the same effect it had on banking. Anyone still want to argue that bank deregulation was a good idea?

Finally we see the primary care red herring again. Look there is precisely zero science based evidence that you guys will quit smoking, exercise more, eat healthier, drink less based on the words of your doctor 2x a year. There is no evidence to support that.

No the republican ideas are all bankrupt have already been tried and universally failed and made problem worse in every single case without exception.

Given those unassaultable cold hard facts we should do precisely what retardlicans are opposed to. First reeducation camps for anyone currently registered republican. Second, death panels and make republican seniors prove their continued worth. Third, we should make ammunition illegal. Pass laws making right wing radio and fox news illegal. Impose communism and seize all land and give it to black people in repairations. Surrender to the French and terroists. Forced conversions to islam.

I don’t know how to address the burka issue however, because I suspect republicans would get into that sort of thing.

Oh and you can only get married or join the military if you are gay.

I have to admit, I learned what it means to be a liberal from rush limbaugh, Sean hannity and glen beck.

Oh I guess I forgot handing Texas, new Mexico, and Arizona over to Mexico.

# 18 LibertyLover said, on November 9th, 2009 at 7:14 am

Here is a plan that I and a few others have been asking for but seems to get lost in the noise of “only the gov can provide good health care.”

http://tinyurl.com/ya7776e

the Comprehensive Health Care Reform Act of 2009, which provides all Americans with a tax credit for 100% of health care expenses, a tax credit for premiums for high-deductible insurance policies connected with a Health Savings Account (HSA), and allows seniors to use funds in an HSA to pay for a medigap policy. In addition, it makes all medical expenses tax deductible.

Seriously — why does it make more sense to give the money to the government, pay a 25% surcharge (you think the bureaucrats are going to work for free?), and then let them pay the insurance company?

If the government is going to spend the money ANYWAY, spend it by just not taking it in the first place.

H.R. 2629, a bill that prevents the government from requiring people to purchase health insurance, and [...] H.R. 3217, which permits the purchase of health insurance across state lines and will ultimately lower costs due to the resulting competition.

# 19 Tom said, on November 9th, 2009 at 7:28 am

I’d have a government run, single payer system with Doctor’s working for a salary like the rest of us.

For you idiots that have never read the US Constitution, one of the six reasons given for forming the US was to “promote the general Welfare”. I say universal health care would do that.

Now that I’m on Medicare, I have better coverage than I’ve ever had before. Not exactly a single payer system since I had to get a supplemental plan but it’s close.

My daughter’s job was just eliminated and her health insurance with it. Neighbor just became a widow and her health insurance when away. It’s unacceptable that people don’t access to health care.

# 20 Faxon said, on November 9th, 2009 at 7:30 am

Fund Medicare. Let the working public pay for insurance if they want it. Otherwise, no medical care.

# 21 Angus said, on November 9th, 2009 at 7:34 am

A: Health insurance should be MANDATORY. If you don’t have it, you should fall under a public option whose premium scales with income.

B: If you like what you have, you can keep it (private option). You should not be taxed on this benefit. This way private insurance goes back to being an employer enhancement, rather than a reason to get a job.

These ways help to fix the problems in the system without reinventing it. I think this is the whole point, don’t break our coverage just to give othetr coverage. As a conservative, I know there is a problem and want to fix it, yet I don’t want to lose what I’ve worked hard to attain.

# 22 Postman said, on November 9th, 2009 at 7:35 am

#18

stuff gets lost in the noise of single payer provides the best health care noise because those are the only examples that anyone can point to of well run health care systems.

Your plan does nothing to help the woman who was denied care because she had the pre-existing condition of being raped.

The plan that will pass is flawed but at least it will provide her with health insurance before she becomes so ill she qualifies for medicaid.

Also, and this is why I call you guys retardlicans, the time for ideas was last summer, or even the last decade. Instead last summer the only idea you had was “no” and you did nothing the last decade.

It is way to late to consider your ideas at this point. But don’t get angry at us, Obama made a speech asking for your ideas and all your party did was ra ra the guy who called him a liar.

# 23 bobbo, international pastry chef and healthcare expert said, on November 9th, 2009 at 7:36 am

Two good examples of “no think dogma” from the LIEBERTARIANS:

1. Tax Credits: Doesn’t help poor people which is the fastest growing class in America.

2. Interstate Competition: because competition drives down prices==even LL has to add “eventually.” In fact, eventually means never as in all that competition all the “fat cat corporate welfare too big to fail institutions are.” The market, such as it is, is already so carved up and manipulated no one with enough capital to get into that market would do so to make less money than they can by going with the flow.

Face it tards: healthcare is NOT an activity that the market works well, if at all, to control. Nice idea==just doesn’t work.

# 24 jollycynic said, on November 9th, 2009 at 7:40 am

I’m of course on the bandwagon with tort reform and opening up state lines for insurance sales.
Beyond that there need to be some changes on prescription drug development. I’d extend new drug patents by 5 years, change it so that the patent countdown doesn’t even begin until the drug actually makes it to market (right now it can take several years from approval to reaching the patient, and the whole time their patent ticks away).
Also, I’d ban the sale/licensing of generics to foreign countries by any manufacturer but the one who holds the original patent if that country exercises price controls on drugs (generics can still be sold just fine here in the US and in countries who don’t price fix). This would help ensure that foreigners pay their share of OUR innovation instead of leeching off of us while we bear the cost burden of research.

# 25 bobbo, international pastry chef and healthcare expert said, on November 9th, 2009 at 7:44 am

- – - – and further, forgot to say that Tax Credits don’t lower cost and instead act to raise prices as they act as a subsidy.

#24–Jolly==Wouldn’t your plan just give the generic market to foreign based pharmacies?? Not too smart.

# 26 LibertyLover said, on November 9th, 2009 at 7:45 am

#19, <i“promote the general Welfare”. I say universal health care would do that.

PROMOTE not PROVIDE. Big Difference.

#22, Um, you need to think outside the square. There are more than two parties, Scooter.

And these ideas have been on the table for years. They just never got much attention.

And think about this . . . how can single payer actually reduce costs? It’s a monopoly! If you think it will, look at any of your dream countries overseas and see how much they pay for this (some are paying over 15% of their salary). 2.5% is a joke if you think it’ll stop there. Those countries are looking at privatizing most of it because they can’t afford it anymore. Now look at how much they spend on their military. And then compare their Constitution to ours.

And I just love man-who stories. My neighbor has cancer and her insurance paid for it all. I have a sister who had to have surgery and her insurance paid for it all. I had to have surgery and insurance paid for it all.

None of us have been dropped or denied coverage.

For every man-who story there is an equal one to refutes it.

Stop listening to the propaganda and think for yourself for once.

# 27 Postman said, on November 9th, 2009 at 8:09 am

Lol, there are actually some retards who thing the idea of national sized banks was a good idea!!!!! Rofl!!! And now you guys want to bring those same economic wonders to health insurance???

Bwhahahhaha.

Look if we are going to use the federal government to bail out the to big to fail health insurance companies, why don’t we just skip a step and go directly to single payer?

# 28 Cephus said, on November 9th, 2009 at 8:13 am

I won’t support it until it actually addresses the core problems in health care: the insurance industry, the legal industry and government incompetence. But of course, no plan will ever address those, the insurance industry and the lawyers are major political contributors, doing anything to harm them will cut down on political contributions and we know that politicians will never do that.

If the government can’t even administer social security and Medicare, how can we trust them to take on health care for all?

# 29 SparkyOne said, on November 9th, 2009 at 8:40 am

Fuck’em, just plain old fuck them. We need something to trigger the replacement OUR current congress, like a natural disaster, requiring new elections since 99% of the people in this country won’t get off their asses to help themselves or to correct the terrible situation of these mutants being in YOUR government.

Is calling for a natural disaster treason yet?

# 30 dusanmal said, on November 9th, 2009 at 8:41 am

@#21 Mandatory health insurance just redirects the problem. It would be ideal to address health care for a country of utter idiots incapable of taking care of themselves.
I say follow simple, natural, Darwinian principles. Everyone should asses their own risk and capabilities themselves and pick what is best for them. Every single clever young person, for example, should see that the whole insurance deal is a scam and instead of paying into it start saving their own money for health care purpose. But, if they like, they should be able to buy health insurance where ever in the country they find fit to serve them.
What about people “incapable” of paying/ “uninsured”? Give doctors choice of treating them (including decisions of what those people actually need) and reimburse doctors by simply reducing their taxes for amount they have done treating uninsured. No loopholes, managing,… Doctor said his service of “incapable” cost so much – existing agency IRS returns that much from his taxes, up to 0 balance. With one caveat, persons doing so must prove they are under poverty line. If you are uninsured, haven’t saved to pay for it yourself and over the poverty line: you are an idiot. Consequences must follow. Your property should be seized for medical expenses. Sob story? – go to various charities.

Whatever is done with health care must reintroduce concept of personal responsibility. That includes consequences and losers. Once we have those, costs will naturally go down.

# 31 LibertyLover said, on November 9th, 2009 at 8:42 am

#27, Look if we are going to use the federal government to bail out the to big to fail health insurance companies, why don’t we just skip a step and go directly to single payer?

So, two wrongs make a right?

What a way to run the country.

# 32 Animby said, on November 9th, 2009 at 8:54 am

1. Tort reform so the doctor’s lawyer isn’t earning as much as the doctor
2. Regulate the insurance industry as a public utility – I won’t go so far as to say cap salaries of insurance execs but I would like to see, say, 80% of premiums actually providing health care
3. Bring back practical nurses – do you really heal faster with a $75,000 a year registered nurse shooting penicillin into your ass?
4. Re-establish city hospitals as a place for everyone but where the poor can pay on a sliding scale or not at all
5. Fully fund Medicare and Medicaid and REQUIRE all Federal employees and their families be treated under one of those plans
6. Increase the role of physician assistants and nurse practitioners as gatekeepers and primary care givers to allow physicians to spend more time with difficult cases
7. Screw standardizing forms, it should all be computerized so the doctor enters the essentials: SOAP – symptoms, observations, analysis (diagnosis) and plan of treatment. Hit and everything is done electronically
8. End “bonus” payments for doctors that hit specified goals: they are nothing more than artificial means of limiting care – instead, all doctors in a community should be judged against each other
9. Guarantee funding of medical research each year at a predetermined percentage of medical care costs and tax credits to a percentage of gross income for pharmaceutical and medical device manufacturers to pursue research
10. Never give a magic wand to an angry physician

Two points:
1 – if you think the government can run medical care, check out the VA hospital system and the Indian (BIA) medical system.
2 – Thank you, Bobbo, for letting me be a millionaire. Sadly, I have squandered my education providing free care around the world. I am rich in many other ways, though.

# 33 Postman said, on November 9th, 2009 at 9:02 am

#31

considering the way our government works, you idea might actually result in single payer sooner than mine. Bravo! I hadn’t considered that possibility.

# 34 LibertyLover said, on November 9th, 2009 at 9:03 am

#33, How do you figure?

# 35 Postman said, on November 9th, 2009 at 9:16 am

The same mechanism that brought us a single nationalized bank with executives with Maoist sallary caps.

Use banking as our model. Deregulate the health insurance industry until it all merges into two or three company that are too big to fail, with ever more exotic financing options for health care. Elect Jeb Bush president (he is already exploring that) then he will make disasterous “mistakes” on his way out of office and the country will have no choice but to nationalize health insurance the same as they did with the banks. Salary caps and all.

I think I may have just become a neo-con.

# 36 LibertyLover said, on November 9th, 2009 at 9:24 am

#35, It was the regulations that allowed all of this to start with.

The health industry is the most regulated industry in the country. The financial sector is the second.

They’re doing just great, right?

# 37 Jess Hurchist said, on November 9th, 2009 at 9:28 am

I live in England, I like the way it works here. I’ve been healthy all my life but I know plenty who haven’t and they have all been treated pretty well.
What I’d like to understand is how wealthy does a US citizen have to be for a reasonably ordinary event not to be financially crippling.
For reasonably ordinary I’m thinking broken arm or leg; Glandular fever (mononucleosis) the sort of non-self inflicted, non avoidable damage or illness that could happen to anyone at any time.
The impression I’ve got (from the reformers side) is that bills mount up at (multi) thousands per day is that wrong?

# 38 bobbo, international pastry chef and healthcare expert said, on November 9th, 2009 at 9:38 am

#32–Animby==you made the right choice. But yes, millionaire docs are appropriate only IN America==not FROM America.

And the million dollars really is just a counterpoint to the free market system so lauded here wherein presumably poor people would pay their charitably minded docs in chickens and potatoes just like in the good old days.

No, government reimbursement has lead to docs becoming the highest paid profession. I don’t even disagree with that, its ACCESS and PROVISION of needed services that are the nub this decade.

Hah, hah. I’d love to hear what LOSER thinks is the regulatory scheme that has healthcare so controlled??? Don’t even need to say that the Repugs and Charlatans gut regulatory enforcement when they can’t get outright no regulations to begin with. Acts like there was no financial crises in the unregulated debt/swap market in 2008 at all.

Remarkable Blind Spot. Spot Defined: Your entire field of vision.

Dolts.

# 39 Postman said, on November 9th, 2009 at 9:47 am

#37

so say you want to have a baby in the states… Even if you have insurance, you are looking at a 25-50k dollar bill. Now I realize we are currently in hyper inflation, but still that has to work out to 200-300 pounds.

It has resulted in a situation where unless you are a banker, having even a single child causes you to be in poverty. To the point that 80% of American children will be on welfare at some point in their life.

Additionally we have a social movement that thinks this is not only an acceptable state of affairs but is even desirable. Makes for a good all volunteer army don’t cha know.

Think potato famine. That is where we are as a nation. In the past when this happened. So while we are not yet as bad as darfour or Bosnia in the 90’s we are getting there. Civil war is just around the corner here. We are gonna make the soviet break up look neat and orderly.

# 40 Angus said, on November 9th, 2009 at 10:11 am

#39? Huh? 25-30K for a delivery!?!?! Even with the 90/10 insurance model many of us have, we’re looking at 2-4K at most for a normal 3 day delivery. We’ve got gross problems, but the system’s not THAT broke.

Now, have a kid WITHOUT insurance, and that figure is more likely. That’s why a public option is so important.

# 41 Father said, on November 9th, 2009 at 10:42 am

Insurance should cover the big expenses, cancer, organ failure, etc.

The day-to-day checkups and ellective medicines should come right out of the sick person’s pocket.

Do you submit a claim to your car insurance company if you get a ding?

# 42 Thomas said, on November 9th, 2009 at 10:52 am

First, even if we restart from scratch, the fundamental rules of supply and demand are still going to apply. If the government artificially caps the price of a good or service, the supply will drop (Lookup the problems with the supply of geriatricians these days). If the government takes over an industry so that there is a single supplier and demand remains the same, prices will go up. What keeps us from being charged a million dollars for a bottle of soda? It isn’t the humanitarian nature of business owners; it is competition. Competition is what keeps prices down. So, if I could wave my magic wand, I’d ensure that any insurance company can insure any person in any State. I’d require that all insurance rates be posted to a Department of Insurance and that insurance companies provide rates for a standard basket of services so that individuals could compare plan costs. I’d provide vouchers for low income individuals so that they could purchase a plan and I’d not let insurance companies deny individuals for pre-existing conditions. Lastly, I’d add caps to medical lawsuit settlements. The only other action I’d suggest is one for which I’m not sure exactly how it could be done. I’d find a way of having insurance companies sell to individuals and not corporations.

Amazingly, these sorts of changes could be done now so it answers both questions.

# 43 Brock said, on November 9th, 2009 at 10:54 am

Cancel all insurance and have doctors accept cash only. The price of medical care will drop like a rock. People will only go to the doctor when absolutely needed, unlike today where medicine is viewed as a free RIGHT by many. Why aren’t new cars a right? Or food? Or housing?

The biggest problem with healthcare at this point is our Rich Uncle Sam, promises to provide FREE healthcare to large parts of the population. Like any good moneygruber, the doctors and other healthcare providers take advantage and charge as much as they possibly can.

The next biggest problem in healthcare is doctors are trained to aggressively use the latest and greatest medicines and tools without consideration of cost, or strangely enough outcomes. Healthcare education must change. It’s no wonder over half the middle aged doctors in my area are of foreign origin because they know the system will pay virtually any bill submitted.

Finally, there must be some constraint over Doctors charging for essentially not service. A doctor I had neveer seen before dropped by my dad’s room at the hospital. A month later a bill for over $200 for a doctors visit came through. A month after that, he was paid by secure horizons $80 after the excess above medicare allowed was disallowed. Literally a 5 minute social call. What CRAP. Dig deep enough and discover the problem with health care is none other than the doctors, who have learned to play the game of the current system. The insurance companies only enable it because they can’t disallow ridiculous charges.

# 44 Thomas said, on November 9th, 2009 at 10:55 am

#17
It is amazing how liberals still fail to understand the fundamentals of supply and demand. If you restrict the supply, price will go up assuming demand remains the same. If a single payer system is so great, then implement it in your State and let’s see how it goes. Until at least one State puts in a working single payer system that does not bankrupt the State, no one will accept the argument that it is a good idea to do it at the Federal level.

> Second, no amount of free market
> reform will fix healthcare, because that is
> how the insurance companies make money.
> They charge you as much as they can
> then they deny you care. As for
> profit enterprises that is their imparitive.

Are you saying that a government system will not try to minimize costs and increase revenue through higher tax rates? Oh, that’s right, they will. The difference is that when the government runs a system and it sucks, you still have to pay for it.

# 45 Mr. Fusion said, on November 9th, 2009 at 11:04 am

1) Single payer.

there is no #2

# 46 LibertyLover said, on November 9th, 2009 at 11:05 am

#41, Bingo.

People have gotten so used to the idea that insurance should cover the “oil change” that anything less than that is unacceptable.

A six month dental checkups costs $70.
A three month oil change costs $65 (synthetic oil, big engine, etc.).

Why should the dental checkup be “free?”

# 47 Mr. Fusion said, on November 9th, 2009 at 11:07 am

#44, Thomas,

Are you saying that a government system will not try to minimize costs and increase revenue through higher tax rates?

Yes, they will, as they should, minimize costs. Everyone knows there is a huge amount of waste in the system no one cares to control.

As for higher taxes, I fail to see them being any higher than what is currently spent on health care. The highest per capita in the world.

# 48 MikeN said, on November 9th, 2009 at 11:13 am

Stop having insurance pay for every health care cost, and instead be like life insurance. You hope you don’t have to cash it in.

# 49 Brock said, on November 9th, 2009 at 11:16 am

#41 – I could live with this. Otherwise, scrap the whole thing.

# 50 Postman said, on November 9th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

So we have more support for the proven failures of primary care physicians… Which are used as a red herring to support the idea that people should pay for it them selves.

Lol.

Here is my primary care cost cutting procedure. In stead of people seeing a doctor once every six months one on one, we put everybody in a local school gym and have a doctor come in and tell them to quit smoking, eat better, get more exercise etc.

On the way out the door we have a blood drive where we log your vital stats and do propflactic bloodwork.

There more primary care physician red herring, oh and you have better primary care that way as well.

But this is America and we shake our fists angrily at facts.

# 51 LibertyLover said, on November 9th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

#50, I am not sure what facts you are shaking your fists at.

Do you not agree the health industry is the most regulated in the country?

If it isn’t, where is all the federal money spent on it going?

# 52 MikeN said, on November 9th, 2009 at 2:09 pm

For people who think eliminating insurance company profits with single payer or public option, will pay for everyone’s health care, could you please tell me how much are insurance company profits?

# 53 gus green said, on November 9th, 2009 at 2:22 pm

I want a smokin-hot, red-headed Dr. Crusher in Sick Bay who can wave a wand over my ass when I’m sick and fix me, and I just walk in.

If we can’t get that… I sure don’t want my employer picking & providing healthcare insurance and deciding what gets covered on the policy. He’s might be great at running an oil change shop but what the hell does he know about healthcare? Nutin! Business’s should not be forced to carry this burden, of which most have no expertise.

So where do we start? United States Declaration of Independence states that “Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” is an “Unalienable right”. Having this “right to life” should, more importantly in my opinion, extend to those outside the womb. We band together in organized societies & create governments for many reasons, such as building roads and crossing rivers and protecting land from invaders. Why would be have so LITTLE compassion for our fellow man as to NOT band together to SAVE LIFES by providing proper healthcare to all of our citizens? They current system is more closely represented by “don’t get sick” and “fend for yourselves.”

Employer supported or purchased insurance started as an employee benefit when someone was offered a job and “held out for more.” At which time, the employer offered not a higher salary, but paid health insurance. It was a vastly different world in the 1940’s when that occurred. It got popular. Medicine was much less expensive. Today’s treatments often require a battery of tests, many of which were not available years ago, and expensive machinery, such as a cat scan. Medical bankruptcies are at an all time high no matter who you ask.

We need to come together as a people and agree that a compassionate country will care for it’s citizens. All of them. Cut the insurance companies out of the profit of medicine and watch prices drop. They’ll figure out something else to insure and that’ll make up any losses. We need digital smart cards for healthcare records and smart secure networks for records & prescriptions. We need payments made on time to providers. Cap torts except on gross negligence and apply SOME metric to define gross negligence in a court. Have a low deductible (like $50.00) to discourage those who are not sick from swamping ER’s. Look at what Taiwan and the Norse are doing for healthcare. Pattern after those.

“But there will be shortages and rationing.” Guess what McFly, there already are. Have you BEEN to an ER lately? They sat me in a wheel chair for 45 minutes writhing in pain from a kidney stone, So I rolled over in front of the admitting nurse’s window where she’d have to look at me. Rather than watch me, the only person waiting, suffer, she got up and left. Couldn’t they have came out and given me a shot? So don’t tell about waiting. You wait at Wal-mart, drive-thru’s, and busy hospitals because we have a lot of people in one place. Get used to it.

# 54 Postman said, on November 9th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

I don’t know the insurance company profits, however I do know we spend 14% of our GDP on healthcare while… England only spends 7% and that English guy in here earlier, the idea of paying for health care seemed alien to him.

So the health insurance industry profits and overpayments to their executives is about 7% of GDP.

Anyone wanna guess how many of the countries with single payer pay about half what we do? All of them.

# 55 LibertyLover said, on November 9th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

#53, I want a smokin-hot, red-headed Dr. Crusher in Sick Bay who can wave a wand over my ass when I’m sick and fix me, and I just walk in.

Me, too! Unfortunately, Star Fleet doesn’t exist yet.

There is nothing to stop you from doing that. Get together as many citizens as you want and start handing it out if you want. I’m not going to stop you.

However, Unalienable means it can’t be taken away. You are taking someone else’s property when you force a tax at the barrel of a gun to help someone else. What about THEIR right to life and the fruits of their labor?

The man who wrote the Declaration of Independence had this to say on his 2nd inaugural address:

“[Our wish is to ensure]…equality of rights maintained, and that state of property, equal or unequal, which results to every man from his own industry, or that of his fathers.” [bold added]

Thomas Jefferson

He knew people would not end up equal.

If you are going to quote the Declaration of Independence, you should know what it is about first. The best place to learn that is to read the man who wrote it.

# 56 Postman said, on November 9th, 2009 at 3:10 pm

So by liberty Jefferson was talking about owning slaves and a mans right to rape women…

maybe Hitler, Stalin, or George Bush can offer more recent gems of wisdom?

I want none of the liberty you are selling dude.

Do you suppose he raped that slave of his at the point of a gun?

# 57 Thomas said, on November 9th, 2009 at 4:57 pm

#56
So, are you saying that everything that Jefferson did or said is forfeit because he owned slaves? I suppose that’s also true for Washington.

# 58 Mr. Fusion said, on November 9th, 2009 at 5:26 pm

#57, Thomas,

What Postman is saying is that just because some one says something, don’t take it at just face value. Put the whole thing in context. Liebertarians are infamous for taking small pieces of quotes and denying others made by the same person.

How someone be the arbitrator of “liberty” when they purposely denied that same “liberty” to others? And not just blacks. Even when Jefferson was Governor of Virginia, only those worth so much were allowed to vote.

# 59 Mr. Fusion said, on November 9th, 2009 at 5:34 pm

#55, Loser,

Since when has the right of ONE person ever take precedent over the rights of society as a whole?

Tax collection has been a problem ever since the first group got together. In the beginning those who refused to contribute were kicked out of the tribe to die in the wilderness. Today, we will allow you to leave but don’t keep claiming ownership to part of the society you deny. If you wish to remain a part of society great. Just contribute as per what society claims you owe. If you don’t want to be part of our society, don’t claim you are part of it.

We already know why you hate America. You won’t be missed. I bet your mother will cheer.

# 60 Thomas said, on November 9th, 2009 at 7:28 pm

#58
It is a poster child ad hominemn to dismiss Jefferson’s notions of liberty simply because he owned slaves. We can extrapolate Jefferson’s ideas of liberty, which we all admit in his time only applied to free men, to all men and woman today and therefore his ideas about liberty are as relevant to everyone today as they were then to free men.

We can take what Jefferson did say in LibertyLover’s post, remove the prejudice of it applying only to free men and the sentiment still stands. Inherently, people will have different results (the state of their property) based on their talent and effort even if equal rights are maintained.

# 61 MikeN said, on November 10th, 2009 at 5:37 am

People who think Dr. Crusher is hot shouldn’t be deciding anything about health care.

# 62 Postman said, on November 10th, 2009 at 5:43 am

#60

nope. It was common for slave owners to “put down” slaves that became sick or I’ll. That means Thomas Jefferson was probably also a cold blooded murderer exactly like Hitler and Stalin. Morally he is no different and shares a place in hell with them. After all he was a slaver, he shares guilt with them of the worst possible crimes.

But it also makes Thomas Jefferson uniquely irrelevant in any debate about healthcare. You know, because he murdered people because they were sick.

So just like america grew and put slavery behind it, it can also grow and make health care a right.

At the point of a gun if need be. With the bloody deaths of half a million people if need be.

# 63 Phydeau said, on November 10th, 2009 at 5:50 am

#59 Well said, Mr Fusion, I couldn’t have put it any better. Libertarians are whining soreheads who don’t want to pay their share.

Go create your libertarian paradise somewhere else, LL. Or accept that taxes are the dues we pay for civilization. If you live in America you can’t help but benefit from what all our tax dollars pay for. If you don’t want to pay taxes, then stop taking what they pay for and get the hell out. Have some integrity, for god’s sake.

# 64 bobbo, VOTE ALL INCUMBENTS OUT OF OFFICE said, on November 10th, 2009 at 5:52 am

#62–Postman==I’m all for your iconoclastic viewpoint even though I think the real issue is much more mundane that by coinkiedink is often exhibited by Liberty Loser – BUT – you go from a group generality about slavers even saying only that Jeffereson “probably” put down slaves but you go on to form conclusions based on assuming that he did?

Thats just poor form. Very much like a slaver yourself.

# 65 jollycynic said, on November 10th, 2009 at 5:55 am

I can’t believe that nobody has yet stated the obvious;
Some people are nothing but a burden on society and should not be saved.
Give me a healthcare reform that lets die the people who should die and then maybe we can talk. We are only having this debate at all because we made the mistake of preserving that which shouldn’t be preserved at all.

# 66 LibertyLover said, on November 10th, 2009 at 6:05 am

#59, Before you talk to me about anything substantial, you need to prove your credentials to me.

You can do that by telling me why you would sacrifice others to save your wife.

# 67 Phydeau said, on November 10th, 2009 at 6:11 am

#65 You are a jolly guy, jollycynic. Shall we set up some death panels to decide who should live and die?

# 68 LibertyLover said, on November 10th, 2009 at 6:13 am

#62, But it also makes Thomas Jefferson uniquely irrelevant in any debate about healthcare.

Then you don’t believe in the Declaration of Independence?

So just like america grew and put slavery behind it, it can also grow and make health care a right.

You can’t “make” something a Right. You can only make privileges. Rights are inherent.

Perhaps you should read up on exactly where Rights come from.

At the point of a gun if need be. With the bloody deaths of half a million people if need be.

Bring it on, fat boy.

# 69 LibertyLover said, on November 10th, 2009 at 6:14 am

#63, Fido said, “Four Legs Good, Two Legs Bad!”

# 70 jollycynic said, on November 10th, 2009 at 6:16 am

#67
No death panels needed. Let Darwin take his course at no expense to the public.
Or, I have a compromise for you. I’ll be happy to pay full healthcare for life to any person who receives voluntary sterilization PRIOR to producing any offspring.

# 71 Phydeau said, on November 10th, 2009 at 6:17 am

#66 Dude, I’m embarrassed for you. Still flogging that dead horse. Why don’t you stop avoiding the questions?

# 72 Postman said, on November 10th, 2009 at 6:17 am

#64

ok my bad.

Do you suppose that slave girl that Thomas Jefferson raped had the benefit of his personal doctor? Or did she give birth to those kids in a dirty unsanitary barn somewhere?

Maybe it was the realization that his own children were now slaves is why he freed them. Maybe if she had died in child birth, there next to the farm animals, they would not have been freed?

Circumstaces of birth indeed.

# 73 Postman said, on November 10th, 2009 at 6:25 am

#68

consider it brought.

Oh and a recap, you are losing:). We are already sliding down the slope to single payer:)

for all the hyperbole in media, the now passed health care bill was a decisive defeat for republicans.

You are on the losing side of history.

If you don’t want health care, to bad you are jailbound if you don’t get it.

At the point of a gun.

# 74 LibertyLover said, on November 10th, 2009 at 6:25 am

#71, I’ve already answered it, at his request.

Then he carried his ass off into a corner to hide.

Typical liberal hypocrite — a challenge for you guys only works one way.

# 75 LibertyLover said, on November 10th, 2009 at 6:28 am

#73, I’m really surprised you feel this way.

You can give the Obamessiah a pass for his lies and faults, but you can’t give Jefferson one?

Another hypocritical Obamabot.

# 76 LibertyLover said, on November 10th, 2009 at 6:32 am

#73, You would really take the food out of 25 people’s mouths to prove a point?

That’s what would happen if you sent me to jail. No one to run the company, no one to sign the checks, no one to bring in new business.

Dude, you really are a hard ass.

# 77 LibertyLover said, on November 10th, 2009 at 6:33 am

#73, all the hyperbole in media, the now passed health care bill was a decisive defeat for republicans.

Um, I’m not a republican.

And it wasn’t just a loss for them. It was a loss for everyone . . . including you. You just don’t see it yet.

But you will.

# 78 Phydeau said, on November 10th, 2009 at 6:49 am

I’ll say again: LL, put your money where your mouth is. You’re a free man, it’s a free country, it’s a free market. If you don’t like paying your taxes in America, go find some other place where you can pay less taxes. And good luck in whatever third world hellhole you find with lower taxes than the U.S. Because all the other civilized countries have tax rates higher than the U.S.

So go ahead, act on those free market principles you supposedly value so highly. Find another country that offers you more for your tax dollar. It’s a free market, like I said. Sell your business, take your money and go someplace we won’t hear your endless bitching. Put your money where your mouth is, or STFU.

# 79 LibertyLover said, on November 10th, 2009 at 6:55 am

#78, Woah! I must have hit a sore spot with you.

America is the last hope for a free market. Just about everywhere else, collectivism has taken root and started to rot the core out.

But what I don’t understand is if it is so bad here, why do you stay?

# 80 Postman said, on November 10th, 2009 at 7:08 am

#77

don’t care if you don’t like the republican brand. You are still a republican. Although the brand is so damaged I can empathize with why you foreswear the brand.

None the less, lock and load! Get health insurance or the soldiers are gonna shoot you.

# 81 Phydeau said, on November 10th, 2009 at 7:11 am

#79 I don’t think it’s so bad here, pal. You’re the one endlessly bitching about taxes. Bitch, bitch, bitch. Whine, whine, whine. The obvious question is: why don’t you do something about it? America will never be your libertarian paradise. You need to come to terms with that. You will always be paying taxes in America. You want a tax-free haven, you’re going to have to leave.

# 82 Postman said, on November 10th, 2009 at 7:12 am

btw I deliver freight for the us federal government. Sign my check and pay me or go to jail sucka.

# 83 Phydeau said, on November 10th, 2009 at 7:15 am

#80 Good point, Postman. I feel sorry for all the wingnuts here protesting that they’re not Republicans. They waddle, swim, and quack like Republicans, but they swear they’re not. Just goes to show how far off the edge the Republican party has gone. Either that, or the wingnuts have gone so far over the edge that the Republican party looks like flaming libruls to them.

# 84 bobbo, being drunk is just another reality said, on November 10th, 2009 at 7:15 am

#79==Loser==”Last hope for a free market” === and pink unicorns as well. What a dolt.

Say, speaking of unanswered questions revealing “character” I still haven’t seen you answer how little money you would take to kill a stranger by hitting a magic button. You have already amply demonstrated your value system is based on your immediate emotional wants and desires, so this question is far more important/telling/revealing than your own question.

So how much? The movie on that theme offers people One Million Dollars? How little would you take??? How many times would you press the button??

The theater of the absurb awaits your performance!!

# 85 bobbo, being drunk is just another reality said, on November 10th, 2009 at 7:20 am

#72–postman==you say: Do you suppose that slave girl that Thomas Jefferson raped had the benefit of his personal doctor? /// Most slaves did as they were expensive/valuable property.

Or did she give birth to those kids in a dirty unsanitary barn somewhere? /// Most did. I think she (Sally Hemmings?) was a house slave. Could well have had a room.

Maybe it was the realization that his own children were now slaves is why he freed them. /// Well, he freed his non-kiddies too. Quite the “man” wasn’t he??? A LIEBERTARIAN man of his times, as LOSER is in his. Screaming hypocrites both.

Maybe if she had died in child birth, there next to the farm animals, they would not have been freed? /// Yea, who knows?

Circumstaces of birth indeed. /// Yes, the “totality” of the circumstances.

# 86 Phydeau said, on November 10th, 2009 at 7:23 am

Come to think of it, Newt Gingrich supported that moderate Republican running in that NY23 race. And he was overridden by the Palin/Beck/Limbaugh crowd. When Newt Gingrich is considered too liberal, the Republican party is going way out on the fringe…

# 87 LibertyLover said, on November 10th, 2009 at 7:24 am

#80, Please post your mailing address.

I want to give it to my employees so they can send you “Thank You” cards for your warmhearted feelings.

# 88 LibertyLover said, on November 10th, 2009 at 7:28 am

#81, I don’t think it’s so bad here, pal.

BWAHAHAHAHA!

I’m sorry . . . give me a moment . . .

Whew! I haven’t a good laugh like that in a long time. Thanks!

Now, back on subject — Who is trying to change the very fabric this country is built on because they don’t like it?

Why don’t you do something about it?

I have and I do.

# 89 LibertyLover said, on November 10th, 2009 at 7:41 am

#86, Republican party is going way out on the fringe

Not yet it hasn’t. There is a growing movement within to bring it back to life but right now it’s more liberal than conservative.

You know it’s in the shitter when a republican candidate drops and endorses the democrat.

That was funny.

They’re struggling for control right now.

# 90 Phydeau said, on November 10th, 2009 at 8:12 am

#89 Fringe wingnuts like LL support the Republican party’s march off the edge. As a liberal and a grudging supporter of the Democrats (wishy-washy as they are), that is very reassuring to me. I hope LL and the other wingnuts boot all the non-wingnuts out of the Republican party. And yes yes, I know LL, you’re not a Republican. Of course not.

Now, back on subject — Who is trying to change the very fabric this country is built on because they don’t like it?

Let’s see — who wants to remove all regulation of large corporations, and leave us to their tender mercies? Who wants to get rid of the EPA, let those big companies dump their toxic waste wherever they want? Who wants to get rid of the SEC, let those nice Wall Street boys do whatever they want? Who wants to get rid of the FDA and the USDA and let those nice food producers and drug manufacturers sell us whatever they want? Who wants to get rid of OSHA and let those nice factory owners get rid of those expensive safety devices? And who wants individual Americans to be forced to sue multi-Billion dollar corporations to get clean air, clean water, honest financial transactions, safe food, safe drugs, and safe workplaces?

Why, that would be you, LL. Any more questions?

# 91 Thomas said, on November 10th, 2009 at 8:16 am

#62
Do you not see that your argument against Jefferson has been thoroughly trounced? Your continued use of an ad hominem makes you sound like a fanatic. Further, trying to argue that health care is a right for the good of man while dismissing one of the single greatest proponents of individual rights makes you sound like a hypocritical fool.

#73
> We are already
> sliding down the
> slope to single payer:)

How you figure that is a mystery much like the rest of your arguments. If you think single payer is such a great system, implement in your State. You do not need to wait for the Federal government. Why the big push to do this at the Federal level when there isn’t one State that has done it?

#80
> don’t care if
> you don’t like
> the republican brand.
> You are still a republican.

Is that how it works? Ok, you are a baby killing communist that wishes we had a leader like Stalin. Since, we don’t care about what people say, we can brand them how we wish right? Sheesh. What a loon.

# 92 LibertyLover said, on November 10th, 2009 at 8:23 am

#90, Fringe wingnuts like LL support the Republican party’s march off the edge.

If the edge represents oppression, then yes. I also wish the same for any other party.

Let’s see — who wants to remove all regulation of large corporations, and leave us to their tender mercies?

Keep screaming that. Eventually people will believe it.

# 93 Phydeau said, on November 10th, 2009 at 8:43 am

#92 How sad, LL. You claim to be a libertarian but you don’t have the guts to admit what libertarianism stands for. You’ve said all those things that I wrote up there, at one time or another, but when I summed it all up, it’s obvious that it’s pretty damn nasty, so you ran away from it.

I know what I stand for. I think free markets only exist with strong regulation, as the originators of capitalism did. I believe that there are some things the free market does best, and some things the government does best. I believe that in a large country, the taxes we pay don’t always go to things we agree with, and that’s the price you pay for living in a large country.

Doesn’t look like you stand for anything except paying lower taxes. Pretty sad. Not just a wingnut, but a cowardly wingnut.

Ick. I’ve had enough of you for the day.

# 94 LibertyLover said, on November 10th, 2009 at 9:10 am

#93, I don’t think I’ve said those things. You’ve just interpreted them that way.

You are going to have to run far to get away from the message.

# 95 Postman said, on November 10th, 2009 at 10:01 am

Thomas,

Jefferson was a slaver, rapist, murderer. I made no argument. Only fanatics would argue otherwise. That you would continue to lionize a man whose moral equivalents are Hitler and Stalin, says more about you than it does about me.

Also quit blaming me for your ignorance. Blame ronald reagon for taking civics and history out of the schools, because both of those topics tend to discredit conservatives.

Shall we move onto the genocide of the Indians, in which multiple republican presidents would be hanged for crimes agains humanity if they were to face justice?

# 96 gus green said, on November 10th, 2009 at 10:37 am

#55 If you do not want to pay taxes to for the betterment of the community, perhaps you should seek your own island. Lemmie know how that works out for you. Oh, wait. you won’t be able to because you’ll have no infrastructure. No one is forcing you to live here.

Of all the crap that our Gov subsidizes, why not health care? Why not take care of the populace? Isn’t gov supposed to serve the populace? We’re paying for health care now through insurance, who takes their cut off the top. Why not let the gov run it, eliminate that mark-up and provide coverage for MORE people? TELL ME WHY??

re>”Unalienable means it can’t be taken away”
…and are you telling me it’s ok to take away someones life because they lack insurance or a means to pay for treatment? So, it is ok to take their life through INACTION when we have the means and technology to help them? Where’s your compassion for your fellow man? What happens when it’s YOUR life? What happens when YOU need $140,000 cancer treatments? What then?

#61 perhaps you would prefer being manhandled by Dr. McCoy?

# 97 Postman said, on November 10th, 2009 at 10:43 am

#96

if he is walking around handing out mood altering stims as much as McCoy did I would have no issue with it!

# 98 gus green said, on November 10th, 2009 at 10:48 am

LL said “USA is the Last hope for a free market”

HA! That the USA is a free market is an illusion. Nothing could be further from the truth. Nearly everything is regulated, subsidized, taxed, supervised, restricted… in some form.

i.e. >who wants to remove all regulation of large corporations, and leave us to their tender mercies? Who wants to get rid of the EPA, let those big companies dump their toxic waste wherever they want? Who wants to get rid of the SEC, let those nice Wall Street boys do whatever they want? Who wants to get rid of the FDA and the USDA and let those nice food producers and drug manufacturers sell us whatever they want? Who wants to get rid of OSHA…

Fact is, as any society becomes more mature and populated, they expect more from their government or ruling bodies. Managing larger groups of people require more laws to keep “independent thinkers” from hurting others. Environmental laws are an more modern example of this thought. How many laws concerning the Environmental did the US have on it’s books in the late 1800’s? After the USA industrialized, we started creating pollution, we eventually noticed the effects of said pollution, we got a whole set of laws. Many cities have been cleaned up since the 60’s because of regulation. While it’s still questionable to some, LA has breathable air and I’d guess, more cars than ever.

America is moving toward and will settle on a hybrid system of governance with many aspects of socialism. It’ll take time, decades, but I think we’ll get it right. We could error on the side of excess socialism but I really doubt it.

There is little need to fear Socialism. While there ARE bad examples, there are good ones also.

# 99 Mr. Fusion said, on November 10th, 2009 at 11:09 am

#91, Thomas,

Do you not see that your argument against Jefferson has been thoroughly trounced?

Please tell us what kind of health insurance and retirement package Jefferson provided his slaves and then maybe we can start looking at him to work out our 21 Century problems.

Continuing to use Jefferson’s words to make an argument over 200 years later is a nonstarter. Times changed.

# 100 Thomas said, on November 10th, 2009 at 11:21 am

#95
> Jefferson was a slaver, rapist, murderer.

You have evidence that Jefferson was a rapist and murderer of course. You can prove that his love with a slave wasn’t consensual right? Of course, you can. Otherwise, you’d just be talking out your tokhes. You do realize that most slavers were not rapists and murderers right?

> That you would continue
> to lionize a man whose
> moral equivalents are
> Hitler and Stalin,
> says more about you
> than it does about me.

Now I understand. You are a crazy person. In this one sentence, you have destroyed any semblance that you might be a reasonable person with a reasoned argument and instead show yourself to be a fanatic. Simply put, you wouldn’t have the ability to make such a ridiculous statement were it not for men like Jefferson.

# 101 Thomas said, on November 10th, 2009 at 11:40 am

#99
Jefferson’s comment quoted by LibertyLover was to show that Jefferson believed that equality of rights did not imply equality of prosperity. On that statement, Jefferson was absolutely correct then and now. At no time, did anyone imply that Jefferson said anything about health insurance. The quote was applied to a discussion about fundamental liberty.

Now, that said, the very concept of licensed doctors did not happen until the middle of the 19th century. Thus, the supply of doctors was substantially higher and the costs were substantially lower (even in real terms). If anything, slaves did not pay anything for health insurance as any care was covered by the owner. Of course, it also means they had no choice in the quality of their care or their physician. With respect to a retirement plan for slaves, for slaves that were kept most of their lives in *some* ways, they probably had a better retirement plan that most of us as they had housing, food and care all their lives.

Some things do change, however, supply and demand principles do not. If we restrict the supply, price will go up. If we cap the price, supply will go down. If we restrict the supply and the price, then we have to tell a large portion of the demand to go f- themselves (i.e. rationing).

# 102 Postman said, on November 10th, 2009 at 11:47 am

Thomas,

Jefferson raped his slaves and had offspring. qed.

Murdering slaves was a normal part of slave handling, just like farmers kill livestock. Qed.

Jefferson had slaves.

Please contact your local university if you have different information.

Lol retard.

# 103 LibertyLover said, on November 10th, 2009 at 11:57 am

#95, I was going to saying something about your love for Jefferson but Thomas, in #100, did a far better job.

I’m glad you think the republicans were so bad. After all, it was them who started the “40 acres and a mule” promise right after the civil war. I guess you can credit the republicans with the first US social program.

#96, If you do not want to pay taxes to for the betterment of the community

And where do you get that idea? Listening to other people?

I am against federal encroachment of States’ and People’s Rights as defined in the 10th Amendement.

Just because the majority wants it, doesn’t mean they will get it. This is a republic, not a democracy. Unless they approve an amendment.

Of all the crap that our Gov subsidizes, why not health care?

So, because they got away with one wrong, another must be ok?

Crazy.

eliminate that mark-up

I guess you are going to work for the government and handle all the paperwork? And you are going to do it for free? THANKS!

…and are you telling me it’s ok to take away someones life because they lack insurance or a means to pay for treatment?

Are you going to take away my happiness because I want a free mansion through your INACTION when you have the means and technology to give it to me? Where’s your compassion for your fellow man?

Stop thinking with your emotions.

This medical industry is the — most — regulated industry in the nation. How is MORE regulation going to help that?

The problems we have now are because we have too much government involvement, not too little.

#98 Fact is, as any society becomes more mature and populated, they expect more from their government …

You are actually quite correct. What we don’t need is a bloated incompetent government — which is just what we have. We also do not need a government taking the power away from the states and the people.

ruling bodies.

We had a ruling body at one time. We had a revolution to throw it off.

How many laws concerning the Environmental did the US have on it’s books in the late 1800’s? After the USA industrialized, we started creating pollution, we eventually noticed the effects of said pollution, we got a whole set of laws.

Interesting discussion. Why didn’t the people sue the big companies for property rights violations? I guess it was easier to complain to your senator.

It will never be right because people will always want more power, more money. It will not, ever, never in a million years, end, unless the people take it back. It will never be given back.

You want a hybrid system? Look at the TARP funds.

You want a hybrid system? Look at the current welfare systems provided by the US government. It is over half the US budget and STILL you scream for more.

You want a hybrid system? Look at the public school system.

You want a hybrid system? Look at FEMA/Katrina.

I could list hundreds more but I am not sure you would get it.

# 104 Thomas said, on November 10th, 2009 at 11:16 pm

#102
There is absolutely ZERO evidence to show that Jefferson had sex with anyone against their will. Rather, there is evidence to suggest that Jefferson’s relation with Hemings was actually rather intimate. Regardless, just because one of his slaves bore him a child in no way establishes that force himself upon her.

You need to stop studying at the Alfred1 school of logic and learn how logic works. Your argument fall into the category of syllogisms:

A. All slaves bearing children from their owner were raped.
B. Jefferson had a child from one of his slaves
C. Jefferson must be a rapist.

Since the first statement is patently false (and unprovable), the entire line of logic is nonsense.

Similarly, with your later line of thinking:

A. All slave owners killed slaves
B. Jefferson owned slaves.
C. Jefferson must have killed slaves.

Again, because the first statement is false (and again, unprovable), the entire link of thinking is rubbish.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and any proof that Jefferson raped his slaves (by today’s definition) or murdered them would definitely be extraordinary. No one will take you seriously if you throw out ridiculous statements without proof.

Like I said, you’re a crazy person.

# 105 Mr. Fusion said, on November 10th, 2009 at 11:22 pm

#103, Loser,

#96, If you do not want to pay taxes to for the betterment of the community

And where do you get that idea? Listening to other people?

From you. Remember? The armpit that doesn’t want to pay taxes? Ya, that’s right, YOU.

…and are you telling me it’s ok to take away someones life because they lack insurance or a means to pay for treatment?

Are you going to take away my happiness because I want a free mansion through your INACTION when you have the means and technology to give it to me? Where’s your compassion for your fellow man?

So now you are in favor of EVERYONE getting a free mansion? Sorry, as nice as it sounds, that is a bit radical for my tastes.

A mansion is not required for “life” or even survival. Medical treatment is for most people. The difference is plain to anyone with a minimum of two brain cells.

Of all the crap that our Gov subsidizes, why not health care?

So, because they got away with one wrong, another must be ok?

What wrong? It seems to me that most people appreciate the current government “subsidies” we currently have. Except for those who don’t currently benefit so they don’t want their taxes to pay for that stuff.

ruling bodies.

We had a ruling body at one time. We had a revolution to throw it off.

We did? Perhaps you can tell us about that sometime. My history book said something else, such as ‘man has the right to chose his own government’. So today we elect our “ruling bodies” instead of having them imposed upon us. This also allows us to change the government if collectively we disapprove of their performance.

Why didn’t the people sue the big companies for property rights violations?

Simply because the laws didn’t allow lawsuits at the time for environmental damage. Which is why no one was ever charged with anything for the Love Canal problem even though the perpetrators were largely known.

You want a hybrid system? Look at the current welfare systems provided by the US government. It is over half the US budget and STILL you scream for more.

You still trot out that tired old excuse. It is wrong. The largest portions of the Federal Budget are Medicare and Social Security, both of which are paid for by their recipients. They are not welfare.

Now the Defense budget, much of that could be classed as welfare.

You want a hybrid system? Look at FEMA/Katrina.

Government failure ruined a community AND many lives. How you figure this has anything to do with a “hybrid” government action is beyond me.

Why you continue to trot out the same tired, repeatedly refuted crap all the time amazes me. Can’t you think of anything else to do in mommy’s basement?

# 106 Health Care said, on November 11th, 2009 at 4:36 am

both of which are paid for by their recipients. They are not welfare.

# 107 LibertyLover said, on November 11th, 2009 at 5:31 am

#105, Were you talking to me?

# 108 Mr. Fusion said, on November 11th, 2009 at 4:21 pm

@107,

Are the loser that posted #103?

# 109 LibertyLover said, on November 12th, 2009 at 5:34 am

#108, Well, I didn’t see your answer in there and I know you know you aren’t allowed to talk to me until you answer why you would let others die to save your wife.

I guess you got conFused again.

# 110 jacksmith said, on November 16th, 2009 at 8:15 pm

Urgent!! Robert Reich on your healthcare http://bit.ly/SAQ7a

Why A Strong Public Option Is Essential – By jacksmith – Working Class

Robert Reich explains the pubic option: http://bit.ly/dDYSJ

Hollywood Supports The Public Option http://bit.ly/3XLwPi

Beautiful HEATHER GRAHAM http://bit.ly/12sRYD

It’s not just because more than two thirds of the American people want a single payer health care system. And if they cant have a single payer system 77% of all Americans want a strong government-run public option on day one (86% of democrats, 75% of independents, and 72% republicans). Basically everyone.

It’s not just because according to a new AARP POLL: 86 percent of seniors want universal healthcare security for All, including 93% of Democrats, 87% of Independents, and 78% of Republicans. With 79% of seniors supporting creating a new strong Government-run public option plan, available immediately. Including 89% of Democrats, 80% of Independents, and 61% of Republicans, STUNNING!!

It’s not just because it will lower cost. Because a strong public option will dramatically lower cost for everyone. And dramatically improved the quality of care everyone receives in America and around the World. Rich, middle class, and poor a like.

It’s not just because it will save trillions of dollars and prevent the needless deaths of millions more of YOU, caused by a rush to profit by the DISGRACEFUL, GREED DRIVEN, PRIVATE FOR PROFIT MEDICAL INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX!

It’s not just because every expert in every field, including economist, and Nobel laureates all agree that free market based healthcare systems don’t work. Never have and never will. The US has the only truly free market based healthcare system in the World. And as you all know now, IT IS A DISASTER!

It’s not just because providing or denying medically necessary care for profit motivations is wrong. Because it is WRONG! It’s professionally, ethically, and morally REPUGNANT!, Animalistic, VILE and EVIL.

THE REASON THE PUBLIC OPTION IS ESSENTIAL:

The public option is ESSENTIAL because over 200 million of you are trapped in the forest of the wolves. Which is the forest of the DISGRACEFUL, GREED DRIVEN, PRIVATE FOR PROFIT MEDICAL INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX! With no way out except through needless inhumane suffering, and DEATH. While the wolves tear at your flesh, and rip you limb from lib. Then feast on your lifeless bodies like a dead carcase for transplant parts.

At the most vulnerable times of your lives (when you were sick and hurting), millions of you have had to fight and loose cruel, but heroic battles. Fighting against the big guns of the DISGRACEFUL, GREED DRIVEN, PRIVATE FOR PROFIT MEDICAL INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX! in the forest of the wolves. All because you have no place else to go. You have no other CHOICE!

But the PUBLIC OPTION will give you someplace safe to go. And it will give us someplace safe to take you. The public option will be your refugium (your refuge). Where the wolves cannot get at you when your down, hurting, and vulnerable. Where everyone who needs it can find rest, security, comfort and the care they need. Protected by the BIG GUNS of We The People Of The United States. THE MOST POWERFUL PEOPLE AND COUNTRY ON EARTH.

This is why it is so critical that we do not lead another 50 million vulnerable, uninsured Americans into the forest of the wolves, without the protections of a Strong Government-run MEDICARE like public option. We The People Of The United States MUST NOT LET THAT HAPPEN to any more of our fellow Americans. If healthcare reform does not contain a strong MEDICARE like public option on day one. YOU MUST! KILL IT. Or you will do far more harm than good. And millions more will die needlessly. Rich, middle class, and poor a like.

To those who would continue to obstruct good and true healthcare reform for the American people, and who seek to trap millions more vulnerable Americans in the forest of the wolves. We will continue to fight you. We are prepared to wage all out war against you, and will eagerly DESTROY! you. Time…is…UP! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED! No Co-op’s! No Triggers! NO INDIVIDUAL MANDATES! without a Strong MEDICARE like public option on day one.

Healthcare reform can be the GREATEST! Accomplishment of our time and century. A time when future generations may say of us, that we were all, AMERICAS GREATEST GENERATIONS.

BUT WE MUST ACT!

I therefore call on all my fellow Americans and the peoples of the World. To join us in this fight so that we may finish becoming the better America that we aspire to be for everyone.

SPREAD THE WORD!

I have been privileged to be witness as many of you fought, and struggled to take your first breath, and your last breath on this earth. Rich, middle class, and poor a like. Life is precious.

Whatever the cost. WE! MUST SUCCEED.

God Bless You My Fellow Human Beings

jacksmith – Working Class

ATTENTION!! Congress Has The Votes Needed To Pass A Public Option – TODAY http://bit.ly/TCq7O

Things You Can Do To Help NOW! http://www.everydaycitizen.com/2009/09/tired_of_watching_people_die_n.html

A majority of voters would rather have a Democrats only bill with a Public Option. Than a bipartisan bill without a Public Option.

A state based insurance plan is NOT!! a Public Option. Nor is it a Strong, National, Medicare like Public Option.

No Triggers! http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason-rosenbaum/a-trigger-for-the-public_b_277910.html

Triggers http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sirota/weve-seen-these-triggers_b_283583.html

Krugman on heathcare (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/25/why-markets-cant-cure-healthcare/)

Senator Bernie Sanders on healthcare (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSM8t_cLZgk&feature=player_embedded)

John Garamendi on the Public Option and the Grassroots: http://bit.ly/TJMty

Howard Dean on the Public Option http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SKfW2dUnow&feature=player_embedded

We’re Number 37! in quality of health care http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVgOl3cETb4&feature=player_embedded

Twitter search (#welovethenhs #NHS #hc09 #hcr #healthcar #obama #p2 #topprog #) Check it out.

# 111 LibertyLover said, on November 18th, 2009 at 8:18 pm

#110,

“We the People [...] do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

You request is touching but the U.S. Constitution forbids the creation of such a system.

“We the People” is not a democratic license to do what the majority wants on a whim, ignoring the rights of the minority.

However, if you feel that strongly about it, please donate your time and money to this cause. Or even better, talk to your State reps and see if you can get something like that implemented there.

FYI . . . http://tinyurl.com/yerdt4k

Leave Your Reply Below...

Comment Moderation is Active, so if your comment doesn't
show up immediately, please don't submit it again.

Special Deals 4U

25% off eHarmony subscription with code EHTECH
12-percent discount forever with code TECH
10-percent discount and free month using TECH10
10-percent or 30 dollars off weekly car rental!
Get 10-percent discount on car rental!
Get 10% off rental cars!
Get 10% off Dollar rentals!
Discounts on domain names!