Ah_Yea, your capitulation is duly noted and graciously accepted. Better luck next time.

And TheOne, maybe you should calm down a bit.

You laughed off my suggestion that Afghanistan is mostly a place that gets conquered. Instead it is the “graveyard of empires”(not your formulation, I’m sure). But that is wrong.

Afghanistan has dominated no empire. The USSR was destroyed because its system was non-functional. The British Empire was destroyed by WWII. Alexander the Great’s army got skittish when faced with Indian armies. The Mongols became part of the societies they controlled.

H’mmm. Not seeing a graveyard. Afghanistan might rather be called the “highway of civilizations.” That makes it something that gets run over by more energetic states every now and then.

Many empires have left, but that is because nothing inherent in Afghanistan makes it worthwhile to stay. Afghanistan is just a place that is on the way to another more important place.

It is not a state. It is not a democracy. When America leaves it won’t be substantively different than its history. It just won’t be on the news anymore, so we won’t bother talking about it.

You say that many people on the blog are stupid. I don’t think that’s true at all. Many people are ideologically committed; that is a different matter entirely.

If you don’t want to talk politics on a blog that touches on it don’t talk. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

“Rebels Immediately Regret Seizing Power In Zambia”

Like so many excellent articles from The Onion, the humor has a bitter ring of truth to it. Just a sample:

“For years, we watched our beloved homeland suffer from strife and infirmity, knowing that something drastic had to be done,” UDF second-in-command Ngoube Mtumbe said. “Why we decided that that something was to take over this godforsaken graveyard of a country instead of just getting the fuck out, I’ll never know.”

Mtumbe, who was trying to figure out what paperwork was necessary to declare a national state of emergency, said he was still kicking himself for killing countless U.N. peacekeepers well-acquainted with the complicated relief process, and for decapitating the Minister of Transportation, who was “obviously in that position for a reason.”

Yeah… try setting up a democracy in that situation.

And I never used the word “deserve”. I’m not making any judgments on who “deserves” freedom. I’m just saying, once you have freedom, whether you can achieve a democracy depends on what kind of middle class you have. And that’s not just me saying that, it’s what historical scholars have said.

All of our views of class are subjective. Mine, yours, everyone’s. So chill on that one.

And look at your attitude… I’m trying to have a rational, reasonable conversation about democracy, and you’re arrogant and insulting. One of the important qualifications for living in a democracy, for those of you from totalitarian backgrounds, is the ability to converse reasonably with people who have different viewpoints than yours. You would do well to learn that lesson. Maybe “kill the unbelievers” worked back in the old country, but it doesn’t work here.

Thought our current generation of wingnuts seems to be trying to bring it back. They think that anyone who disagrees with their views hates America. They were born and raised here, and they don’t understand democracy.

#37 Excellent combination of smarmy fake sympathy, brown-nosing, and just plain ignorance there, pal. Good job.

Don’t drop out just because this blog has a couple of complete loons, Phydeau being one of the more notable. Dallas not one whit behind, either.

Just remember that insanity is a disease, and feel sorry for them. But don’t allow their sickness to affect what you know to be true and right.

Also remember that for every crazy commenter, 100 other readers got something good from your post.

This is about a person or a group of people doing what they can in very difficult times to try to make a change within their country. Most times, as history has shown us, one does not have to be from the middle class or upper class to “deserve” this right. And certainly democracy does not depend on whether or not you have those two classes. Using this argument would mean we should literally be cavemens still. Democracy, freedom, liberty and all of what most of us hold true in this country does not require anything beyond one’s right to each of them.

Trust me, my post was sarcasm at it’s highest with respect to not insult you directly. But it seems it has flown pass you completely. Your kudos means nothing since you don’t understand the discussion in the first place. It made you feel good I’m sure but totally unwarranted

And lastly, your western view of “classes” are subjective. Please don’t attempt to classify other countries to what you consider the norm here. You don’t think there are no middle classes but in fact there are, even in a communist, imperialist and totalitarian society/government.

Be thankful and fortunate you are here in the US where you don’t have to “trek” anywhere or do anything to “deserve” your rights.

You mean the alternative that employed Obama’s Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates; increased troops with surge because it worked in Iraq; and continued to fight both wars simultaneously? That alternative?

RBG

Truly, sometimes western thinking is so bad and brainwashed that I still find myself shocked and few times appalled. It must be the way we think or see it or else it’s not true.

Democracy to a lot of people, especially 3rd world countries does in a sense translate to freedom and liberty. It is because they know the democracy will provide them the opportunity that they never really had.

My mountain farming parents wouldn’t know what the word Democracy means but when you explain that it means you at least get to choose, that is freedom…freedom to do what one think is right.

I feel like I’m wasting my words and energy here, :/

Obama apologist? I’m talking about Afghanistan and its middle class, not Obama. Looks like you’ve got Little Pedro disease… if anyone says anything that you can remotely link with favoring Obama, you immediately call them an Obama lapdog. Looks like a common wingnut syndrome. Just because you slavishly worshiped Dubya, doesn’t mean that the people who disagree with you worship the other guy. Shades of gray, grasshopper.

And why don’t you let #17 answer the question I posed to him.

Look conservatives, you backed it and bought it. You’re the cause of most of the problems in the U.S. and abroad right now anyway, especially when you acquiesced to neocon selfishness. Sure there were some people calling themselves liberal who went along at times but real liberals have fought against everything that sucked since before Nixon.

Diatribe over. Yep, it looks like Karzai might be just another corporate huxter. So either we’ve made another eventual third world banana dictatorship or it will succeed. Hopefully the latter but after not much longer we need to pull out, right our own ship and let the Afghanis succeed or fail on their own merits.

And no, Obama was not and is not a real liberal but he was better than the alternative.

Look conservatives, you backed it and bought it. You’re the cause of most of the problems in the U.S. and abroad right now anyway, especially when you acquiesced to neocon selfishness. Sure there were some people calling themselves liberal who went along at times but real liberals have fought against everything that sucked since before Nixon.

Diatribe over. Yep, it looks like Karzai might be just another corporate huxter. So either we’ve made another eventual third world banana dictatorship or it will succeed. Hopefully the latter but after not much longer we need to pull out, right our own ship and let the Afghanis succeed or fail on their own merits.

And no, Obama was not and is not a real liberal but he was better than the alternative.

“So why are you so angry at what I said?”
You’re truly clueless.

“that place is not “civilized” by any stretch..”
“Afghanistan has no middle class..”

Except from other boneheads, where did you geniuses find that Afghanistan has no middle class? That Afghanistan is hopelessly ‘uncivilized’? Stop believing everything BSNBC says.

Look through this and then try to explain your ignorance.
http://afghanistan.buildingmarkets.org/en_af/supplierdirectoryconciselisting/

“mostly notable for being conquered by just about everybody”

So that’s why they call it the “graveyard of empires”.

Sheez. Stupidity rules.

No.

A state means a few things. It has relatively stable borders. The authority, which has a monopoly of violence(mostly), controls the territory within those borders(mostly). There is a system of justice which is somewhat consistent. The authority has a decent method of ensuring a transfer of leadership from one leader to another.

Afghanistan, when it isn’t being ignored, is mostly notable for being conquered by just about everybody.

#23 Phydeau

Afghanistan has no middle class, and it isn’t a democracy. Neither one is happening anytime soon. Like in our lifetimes soon.

Summation: Afghanistan is like that alien bar in Star Wars. There is some commercial activity, and a lot of dangerous looking locals. What is missing is the modern world.