This afternoon at Copenhagen a document mysteriously leaked from the UN Secretariat. [...] The cuts in emissions that countries are proposing here are nowhere near good enough to meet even their remarkably weak target of limiting temperature rise to two degrees Celsius. In fact, says the UN in this leaked report, the cuts on offer now produce a rise of at least three degrees, and a CO2 concentration of at least 550 ppm, not the 350 scientists say we need, or even the weak 450 that the US supposedly supports.
In other words, this entire conference is an elaborate sham, where the organizers have known all along that they’re heading for a very different world than the one they’re supposedly creating. It’s intellectual dishonesty of a very high order, and with very high consequences. And it’s probably come too late to derail the stage management—tomorrow Barack Obama will piously intone that he’s committed to a two degree temperature target. But he isn’t—and now he can’t even say it with a straight face.
Not perfect, but I’m all for countries getting together to discuss, debate the health of the planet. It’s a tough problem but it has been done before.
Countries are at least in some cooperative to not pollute the oceans and over-fish.
The effort to protect the ocean waters were met with stiff Conservative opposition, but progress was made. Having similar debate on atmospheric pollutants will likely take the same amount of diligence.
The best possible outcome of Copenhagen would be 450 ppm of CO2 or a 2 degree shift. That’s just based on high school chemistry and physics – and junior high at that. No tree ring studies, no climategate emails, no dinosaurs walking off the ark. Will weather and temperatures still fluctuate? Yes, weather always does. But over the long run that will be the outcome of those CO2 levels.
Cap and Trade, as they are proposing in Copenhagan, is really good at creating a futures market for carbon credits – maybe even worth trillions. Trading tulips always turns out well, right? However, it will do bugger all for reducing carbon emissions.
On the other side of the coin there is higher consumption of fossil fuels with less supply. The need for efficiency in energy consumption coupled with the need for other energy sources will drive carbon reductions.
China gets this and is perfectly happy to let the US screw this up. China is already well out of the gate on developing efficient energy technologies, India and Korea are trying to catch up. The US is dithering and is going to get boned very badly.
That’s hilarious that “Bill McKibben”, the founder of 350.org, is hand written on the document.
Anyone find it ironic that during the conference on “global warming”, Copenhagen was hit by a blizzard that dumped 4″ of snow overnight. Officials said that they haven’t had a “white christmas” in 14-years.
http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601130&sid=a5wStc0K6jhY
…”tomorrow Barack Obama will piously intone that he’s committed to a two degree temperature target.”
I assume that refers to a 2c degree increase. In which case, since the “global” temperature only went up by less than 1 degree in the last 100 years, and since we’re now in a cooling trend, can we just announce that nothing is going to be done and we’ll still easily meet the 2 degree “goal”.
#3, Tim,
Somebody didn’t read the article.
Whether or not Copenhagen succeeds, and it looks like it won’t with all the denier input, guarantee there will be another conference of a more earnest character in a few years.
How do the deniers sleep at night knowing the world they are leaving their children and grandchildren?
I will point out a few things in the USA past.
During the 60′s, 70′s and 80′s the USA made allot of regulations against Industry and manufacturing and wood products.
We were polluting this nation faster then we could clean ANYTHING up. There are movies about some of it. Like a Mutant Bear, created from using Mercury in ponds to DE-BARK trees and lumber.
These regulations have lead to Profits being cut, and Prices being increased.
Business found that it was CHEAPER if other nations DID our work, then WE wouldnt have to clean things UP after.
So, its CHEAPER to ship our lumber to CHINA, have stuff made and SHIPPED BACK and sell it.
Then it is to MAKE it here and CLEAN UP our OWN MESS and pollutants from Processing, making, cutting, and so forth..
WE would rather POLLUTE other nations for OUR OWN GOODS.
I could post the links to those NEET areas like MEXICO and CHINA, but I think many of you already have seen these locations on TV..
#7 A world without bogus carbon taxes eating into what little is left of people’s already dwindling paychecks?
All the scientific ducks need to be in a tight row before any progress can be made. Solid, proven scientific facts presented should not be so full of holes that anyone with a sixth grade education can pick them apart..nor should they be so complicated that sixth graders can’t understand them. Al Gore was a poor choice for spokesperson of the cause too.
Mr. Fusion
Deniers have nothing to do with this failure. Deniers have no real voice and are not in political power.
What we need to leave to our children is prosperity so they may develop new technology. We need more then solar and wind power. We need nukes, self contained cities where people can live near work. We need less fancy homes and older cars.
The real problem with radicals is draconian policies and ignorance of technology. For example they demand 100 MPG cars (nice round number) without realizing gasoline just does not have that much energy.
When slaves powered ships by oars, it was liberals cracking the whip.
Dallas
There is no such thing as “health of the planet”. Is the planet healthy now? Will liberals nurse it back to health? When was the last time the planet was healthy? Was it before humans learned to burn fuel?
The bottom line is that radical liberals just cannot accept that man does not live like animals. Vegan animals that is.
so the green Hajj was a joke…what a surprise. must really suck to be a far left wingnut these days with the agenda crashing, no free healthcare, green religion revealed as a fraud, etc, etc
#11,
Test..
And in the past we had some nice features.
CARS WORKED and lasted.
PRODUCTS didnt DIE every year, or 5 years.
You bought a TV and it lasted 20 years.
WE bought clothes and they LASTED long enough to pass down to a younger child or to give away.
YOU BOUGHT a home and you could repair and upgrade it, and not worry that NEXT year, your taxes would KILL YOU.
But that isnt Commercialism or consumerism..
Companies FORCING goods to expire in a timely fashion and FORCING you to buy NEW, CHEAPER CRAP, because we cant afford the GOOD STUFF.
USA corps are NOT into giving you a GOOD product anymore. They are in the business of MAKING you buy something.
#12 I guess that is a fundamental difference with conservatives. I would argue that the health of the ocean waters pertain to health of the planet.
Do you not think that man can have dire consequences for the condition of the oceans waters, beaches, biodiverstity, the coral reefs?
I find it hard to believe that deep down inside, this is not evident to even the most of extreme of deniers.
#7
> How do the deniers sleep
> at night knowing the world
> they are leaving their
> children and grandchildren?
People have been asking that about the Democrats for years.
Suppose, just for a moment, that scientists do not know the whole story and that industrial carbon emissions aren’t the root cause for climate change. Now think about the economic implications of the cap and trade and environmental restrictions in that light. Trillions will have been pissed away for nothing. There are people in the world that cannot get food or clean water and we are dickering around with a potential five degree increase in temperature over the course of numerous decades.
The moment we move from scientific debate into making policy with these types of profound implications, we better be damn sure we are right. We better have close to irrefutable evidence that human created carbon emissions are the root cause of the climate change and that reducing those emissions will correct the issue.
There’s nothing wrong with consuming less energy as it saves money. The problem is when government’s want to mandate that you pay higher taxes for consuming more than an artificial figure they come up with. The AGW sympathizers and architects (Gore, Maurice Strong, UN people, scientists on the take) were working with flawed data so why should anyone trust what they are saying to be true. It highlights an agenda and an immoral one at that. Is this likely a play to make one-world government a reality?
Can we please not forget that climate change is a natural occurrence. Do we need to control the weather too… and even worse, be forced into controlling it?
The only thing I am on board with is to conserve national parks and the beautiful, wild landscape contained therein. If you like the option of camping and getting away from the hustle and bustle of urban / suburban life for a few days then you will surely agree with me.
The link to the leaked UN climate doc has been twice sabotaged on 350.org. I fixed it and dl’d the pdf version.
You can find Both the UN leaked doc:
[leaked-UN-Climate-Doc.pdf] and the original Climategate [FOI2009.ZIP] in this
[naked] folder on my website: http://soundwash.net/climategate/
Either double click or right click and “save as” whichever file you desire. There is no scripting, html or anything involved. it is just a linux folder. if these links fail, it is an outside source causing it.
—-
The lack of *basic* scientific and technical knowledge of the majority of DU posters is simply TRAGIC.
Mr. Fusion is obviously a government shill. There can be no doubt now. (or he’s mainlining Fluoride)
#4 BigBoyBC: -that was the Russians that produced the storm. they mastered weather control *at least* a full decade if not 15 years prior to the U.S. and have owned Space since the 60′s..
They stood to lose a lot of oil & gas income if the CO2 scam was allowed to go to Full fruition. They don’t care too much about the US market, but obviously, much of Europe would freeze to death without Russian petrol products.
Nonetheless, this is GREAT news.
-now, if the health care [scam] bill is killed, there just might be a chance this country will survive..
-s
Everything is an Illusion…
#17
Car,
Efficiency SUCKS..
Think of a city that has mostly 60% efficient Gas heaters..
A few find a better option that will give them 100% efficiency..
Others see what they have done and JUMP on the wagon and change over.
After awhile the GAS company says..”we arent making money, RAISe the rates”.
You started at paying $60 per month. Cut it to $40..and NOW you are back to $60(at least).
Its not that its better. ITS not so that the corp can give LESS to MORE people. the CORP wants $60 from you.
#16
The absolute you want is never going to happen. The majority of the scientists who believe climate change is because of mans influence don’t just believe it is solely the root cause. If a scientist would to believe that, he/she would be ignorant and laugh at in the community…see politicians.
That is because there ARE many many factors that contribute and affect climate changes. This is obvious if not because of the scale of the issue itself. However, that does not rule out that man does not contribute to the mess.
When it comes down to you and I the question is really, is this CO2 bad, is this garbage bad.. Can we sustain doing this for generations more? How anyone can argue that it isn’t is beyond common sense and reasoning. I will offer my services to prove to you that you can die from CO2 and garbage, just email me and sign my agreement and it’s a done deal. At the very least, send your kids over and I’ll give them a all expense pay vacation in the dead zone. They can swim there all they want…on me!
But you know what, arguing about this over the comfort of your home and couch must be nice. Not having to actually deal with this must be nice as well. As Einstein would say, when encountering one of the 99.9% ignorant human beings out there the BEST thing to do is ignore them. The most difficult issue when one is trying to find answers is the presence of these people.
My offers stands, come over, send your kids over and sign my contract and I’ll be more than happy to show you the “proof” you need, even if it’s on a smaller scale. That’s ok though because most of you ARE thinking on a small scale and not globally. I’ll even toss in a free deal, exposure to radiation. There’s nothing like slow death because you don’t see it coming til maybe years later. It aligns perfectly with the thinking of deniers