Here’s an editorial that sums up what John and Adam have been saying.




  1. Obamaforever says:

    From: Obamaforever
    To: Animby (Me do calculations? You must kidding!!!!) per #47

    Quote:
    #41 – ECA : You must live like Al Gore if you think LIGHTING your house costs $120 per month. What do you use in your beside reading lamp? A 200 watt bulb?
    End of Quote.

    What does it cost to run a 200 watt lamp?

    Note: Animby, we plant bulbs and light lamps The proper term is “lamp”. Now you know.

    Let us show what we will be using in our calculation;

    $.10/kwh ($/kwh for baseload usage)
    30 days per month
    1000watts/kwh
    200 watts/lamp
    1 lamp
    24 hrs/day (you can reduce this usage if you like)

    The calculation:
    200/1000 x 1 x 30 x 24 x $.10=$14.40/month
    $14.40 is what you would pay for a 200 watt lamp.

    A CFL equivalent would be 55 watts (more or less).

    The calculation:
    $14.40 x 55/200=$3.96/ month
    Savings: $14.40 – $3.96=$10.44/month

    Thus, a 55w CFL would save you $10.44/month. Note: Remember this is the maximum savings (i.e. 24hours/day). If the usage is 8 hours per, you can 8/24 x $10.44 to get the new savings.

    Animby, ECA was talking about if a SMALL TOWN (albit a very small town) changed over to CFLs. He was not talking about an individual. ECA states this at the very beginning of his post (per #41). Animby, you must read more carefully!!!!

  2. Obamaforever says:

    From: Obamaforever
    To: Phydeau
    To: JimR per #60

    Quote:
    # 60 JimR said, Re:#55, Phydeau, they are counting on you not bothering to look up what an incandescent bulb actually puts out in lumens… it is actually 1750 lumens, not 900 as they claim. So in fact, you would be paying $50 for a 50w light equivalent… a fridge light. (thanks for the link)
    End of quote:

    JimR, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Please follow if you can.

    The following equation is used to determine how many fixtures (and the type of fixture) you need to light a room:
    Note: this is called the Lumen method or the Zonal Cavity method.

    N=E x A/(n x LL x LLF x CU)

    N= number of fixtures
    E= the illuminance (fc)
    n= the number of lamps per fixture
    LL= the number of lumens produced per lamp
    LLF= the combined light loss factors
    CU= the coefficient of utilization from the tables
    A= the area of the working plane (or floor) that will be illuminated by the fixtures

    Note: the above equation is the condensed version. What you have is terms inside of terms for the complete version.

    JimR, as you can see (I hope) there is more to lighting then “lumens”. “Lumen” is only a small part of how we light a room. You cannot go by lumens alone to properly light a room!!!

    JimR, now you know—I hope.

  3. LeprechaunAngst says:

    “Anyone with any knowledge of history and on how government works knows that it is the *worst possible* vehicle for attaining such noble ends.”

    Wrong – Regards, School Integration

    Additionally, in this case the government is leveraging the market through cap & trade.

  4. JimR says:

    Obamaforever… I’m…I’m… at a loss for words. I don’t know whether to laugh… or scream (never been able to scream)……. have you ever heard of the term “the lights are on but nobody’s home? I’m all for conserving energy, but jeesus man….

    When you referred to “zonal cavity” were you talking about cerebral storage space? …I mean … holy cow man, I’m sorry but… AAAAAH!

    You’re putting me on right? He’s putting me on isn’t he?… guys?

    Isn’t he?

  5. Glass Half Full says:

    The folks tackling this on a political level are idiots and think this is all 100% true or 100% false. Reality is complicated. So is this issue, VERY complicated. No question the earth is warning “overall” more than it has since humans have been around. No one has ever sailed the passage north of Russia in recorded history. The glaciers on Kilimanjaro have been around as long as cave drawings depicted it. Whether humans cause this or not is almost beside the point. Yes we should clean up, pollute less and for GODS sake get out of using middle east oil as our #1 goal!!

    But everything, everything is a give at take. Switch to all LED light bulbs to save energy? Great! But then in Iowa you have to turn UP your heat in the winter (burn more energy) because the old light bulbs actually produced a fair amount of heat. Did you save money? Depends on my variables. In Minnesota they discovered that their fancy low energy LED street lights don’t melt the snow anymore, so they lights get obscured and they have to sent out trucks (energy) to manually clean them off. Saved anything? Hard to calculate.

    This is complicated and the motivations are complicated too. The Republicans just want to screw the Democrats regardless of the bill/point/policy. The Democrats want to embarrass the Republicans. Lets drop the politics crap and just deal with the reality. It’s a complicated issue with complicated solutions. We’ll have to be all smart like and everything…LOL ;-)

  6. Obamaforever says:

    From: Obamaforever
    To: JimR per #64

    The zonal cavity equation does not pertain to the cavity in your head, JimR. The equation tells you what type of fixture to use, what type of lamp to use, how many fixtures to use, and the layout of the fixtures.

    The equation will not directly help you to conserve energy. To conserve energy you will need to go to the Energy Conservation Code in your area. It will tell you what the watts per square foot of lighting you need to use for your application. With the watts per square foot you can use the zonal cavity method to get the best lighting for the watts per square foot.

    JimR, a person of your limited intelligence should not be talking about lumens or anything else (i.e. Climate Change) of which you have little or no understanding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  7. LOWER CASE SCREEN NAME says:

    #65 – Actually it’s all very simple: Pick any “problem” – if the solution requires Americans to live a smaller lifestyle or become less dominating internationally compared to other countries, the solution is unacceptable.

  8. pedro says:

    #64 No, he’s like that

  9. Animby says:

    Obamaforever: “Animby, you must read more carefully!!!!”

    Let me suggest YOU read more carefully. He specifically says the inhabitants of his small town pay $120 “EACH” for their electricity.

    As for the definition of bulb. Please get out your dictionary. Yes, the first definition (in Websters Online edition) is that of a plant stage but the second definition is : “… a bulb-shaped part; specifically : a glass envelope enclosing the light source of an electric lamp or such an envelope together with the light source it encloses”

    So you don’t read very carefully.
    You don’t know the meaning of the words you DO read.
    And you’re a troll, anyway.

    Look up the meaning of “dim bulb.” You’ll find it in the mirror.

  10. JimR says:

    Pedro, he has to be on drugs or something.

  11. pedro says:

    #69 said: “So you don’t read very carefully.
    You don’t know the meaning of the words you DO read.”

    That’s why he and conFusion share a special bond on the blog.

    #70 Actually, I think is lack of prescription drugs. Kids like him (10 Y.O. or so) need their Ritalin.

  12. Animby says:

    Pedro – in his defense, I think his vocabulary is better than a ten year-old. I’d say 15, maybe 16 and recently discovered Wikipedia.

  13. deowll says:

    It would appear that some people posting here want to deal with the world as it is in hopes of reaching better solutions to real problems.

    The liberals posting here don’t care about external reality. Their only reality is between their own ears. External facts just get in their way.

    Both groups claim to be trying to make the world a better place for people to live in.

    For some reason I find I believe that anyone that ignores external realities is doomed to create a great big ugly mess no matter how noble their cause may be if they are given the chance.

  14. Uncle Patso says:

    # 8 Smith:
    “We would go a long way towards energy independence if we were allowed to drill for our OWN damn oil!”

    Not such a long way: maybe 5% to 10% of the way. That’s all the oil there is off the coasts and all the wildlife preserves.

    People here keep saying the government is not the way to get these things done, there’s a better way! Well I say, what? What is the better way? I haven’t heard one single idea that explains how we achieve these things. “Better technology,” “entrepreneurs,” “don’t tax people to death,” etc., etc., etc. That’s all very well and good, but how does any of that get hundreds of millions of people to work and back every day and heat and light their homes, businesses and factories without sending trillions for oil from countries whose people hate us? How?

  15. Obamaforever says:

    From: Obamaforever
    To: Animby per #69

    I know it is hard to follow ECA’s stream of consciousness, but I was able to parse his words.

    Here is what ECA was trying to say: “Everybody in a small town uses the same bulb. The bulbs cost the town $120 EACH month in electricity.”

    One must understand the intent of ECA’s words to get a clear understanding of what he trying to get across.

    I had hoped that my calculations showing the cost savings of using a CFL vs. incandescent lamp would clarify matters—alas, it did not.

    As for the definition of “bulb”. Your dictionary’s definition gives the common usage for “bulb”. Since I was explaining a technical matter the correct, technical term would be “lamp”. In short, the common term is “bulb” and the correct, technical term is “lamp”.

    Please google ‘bulb’, ‘lamp’, ‘lighting’, and ‘technical’ to see that this is true. Or, you could call up a lighting designer and he would tell you the same thing.

    I realize that as a physician who gets his science from business magazines the above is way over your head.

    Physician, no; Chiropractor, yes!!!!

  16. Mr. Fusion says:

    There is a two fold part that several people are missing regarding ECA’s comment.

    Not only will each individual save a small amount, BUT each community, and in fact the world in general, will save by eliminating the need for fossil fuel power generation.

    CFLs are just one small part that can help everyone use a little less energy. CFLs may not be perfect, and I agree they do have their own drawbacks. Sitting still and just moaning or thinking this is someone elses problem is even worse.

  17. Rick Cain says:

    We can substitute natural gas for coal and oil for heating and production and curb a lot of heavy metal pollution, radioactive release and toxic wastes.



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