It took a Kansas jury on Friday just 37 minutes to find Scott Roeder guilty of first-degree murder and aggravated assault in the shooting of Dr. George Tiller.
The prosecution said all along that this was a clear-cut murder case, and the defendant even admitted the crime. The defense wanted the jury to consider a voluntary manslaughter charge, which carries a much lighter sentence than murder. But the judge ruled against that.
Roeder testified that he believed abortion was murder and said he needed to stop it by killing Tiller, one of the few doctors who provided abortions later in pregnancy. Roeder did not deny any of the facts surrounding the May 31 shooting.
Kim Parker, one of the prosecutors, says she hoped the judge’s decision to not allow the jury to consider second-degree murder or voluntary manslaughter resonated.
“Hopefully it sends a clear message that this type of conduct is clearly not justified under the law,” Parker said. “There is no place for this. There are no medals to be given for those who violate the rules.”
#17
“If there is no reasonable answer to question #1″
The reasonable answer is to err on the side of caution, and consider abortion murder.
Completely disagree. The reasonable answer is to err on the side of liberty. It is not even remotely clear that we are talking about murder. Said another way, do not make something criminal unless you are positive it is abrogation of rights. Using your logic, we should ban masturbation because it “might” be murder. We should ban the destruction of fertilized eggs because they “might” be murder and so on.
Your thought experiment is a strawman. Even so, let’s modify the conditions a bit. Same setup, however, if you do NOT pull trigger there is a very high probability that you will die. Further, you are afforded the opportunity to investigate the box to verify it does not, as far as you are concerned, contain another human, however there is no way to be 100% positive. Now do you pull the trigger? I think most people would say that it depends on the person to whom the choice is presented and as such, we should not make something illegal to which there is great dissent as to whether it is criminal
#19
So, let me see if I have this straight. Killing a human is bad, but permanently mutilating a person such that you take away their livelihood is hunky dory and should be legal?! You can hack a person up as long as they live through the process?
Oddly, I didn’t know the judge had that authority.
The rest was a given.
#21:
“Completely disagree. The reasonable answer is to err on the side of liberty. It is not even remotely clear that we are talking about murder.”
It’s not clear if we’re talking about murder, because there isn’t any scientific consensus on when a fetus becomes human. There *has* to be a point when a fetus transitions to being human, with the absolute endpoints being fertilization and birth.
and since just most people believe it’s somewhere in between…
We don’t know when that point is. It might be something we can’t ever pinpoint. If that’s true, then some abortions are murder, some are not, and we don’t know which ones.
Logically, there are *always some* abortions that are murder, unless you believe a fetus isn’t human until it’s birthed.
Liberty is important. Murder is the ultimate crime against liberty, because it deprives another person of life. In defense of liberty, or maybe for some other reason, our society generally considers murder to be the ultimate crime.
It doesn’t follow logically how permitting abortion doesn’t also result in permitting some murders. So, we should err on the side of not accidentally committing murder.
Unless we believe that some people’s freedoms are worth some other people’s lives.
#21:
“let’s modify the conditions a bit. Same setup, however, if you do NOT pull trigger there is a very high probability that you will die.”
I don’t believe it’s right to kill another person simply to save myself.
#24
There *has* to be a point when a fetus transitions to being human, with the absolute endpoints being fertilization and birth.
I completely agree. The catch is that, given what you said, no person or body can make the determination of when it is a human and when it is not other than the woman and her doctor. They are the only ones in a position to make that judgment.
If that’s true, then some abortions are murder, some are not, and we don’t know which ones.
That is an inaccurate way of stating the issue. Some people believe that some abortions, which the woman felt was not murder, actually was murder and visa versa. That will always be true. Some fanatics will think that destroying fertilized eggs is murder. Some loons will think that aborting just before birth is not murder. The whole point is that there is a continuum of opinion and, given that, we shouldn’t place limits on liberty with such a degree of dissension.
Liberty is important. Murder is the ultimate crime against liberty, because it deprives another person of life
This is true only when the act in question is deemed to be murder. Death at the hands of self defense or self preservation is not considered a deprivation of liberty but a defense of it.
The fundamental issue with which you are grappling is that your opinion about what is considered a life, even a potential life, is far from universal. As difficult as it is for you to accept, some people, for example, do not consider a fetus during the second trimester to be a human. Therefore, it is not a human life and its destruction is as morally consequential as killing bacteria. Many disagree and that is the point. With so much disagreement, it is far better to err on the side of liberty than err on the side of a minority opinion.
#25
I don’t believe it’s right to kill another person simply to save myself.
The operative words are “I don’t believe” and “kill another person”. It is your belief that said fetus is a person. If you did not think said fetus was a person, then its destruction would have no moral consequence.
#14 your logic is flawed masturbation does not create a unique human genome like is in a fetus/ unborn child .
All you poor abortion people like to call a fetus a lump of cells, but it is not. With genetic mapping now available you can sample that so called mass of tissue and prove that it is a unique human being and yes I believe that the fertilized egg is a human and should be treated as such,If you are doing in vetro you place multiple eggs and let nature take its course but those not placed are in my mind still human being as their unique genetic code shows them to be and should be treated as such.
#24, #26, not very scientific. They can make a determination that a human fetus is in fact human.
#27
I believe that the fertilized egg is a human
I obviously disagree. So, we have a standoff between the moral interpretation of a minority (those that believe a fertilized egg is a human being) and those that do not. In such a situation, the dispassionate solution is to rule in the favor of individual choice and the individual’s morality.
#28
You are playing games with terminology. Technically, a hair from head is human in that it is derived from a human being. That is far different than claiming that said hair is a sentient being with rights.
I don’t really like abortion as a birth control method, but it ain’t MY body. Also there’s the little matter of world population approaching seven billion. At some point there’s going to be a whole LOT of retroactive birth control. If the Supreme Court keeps up the Corporate Decision Making for the Rich, there’s always the possibility of a Constitutional Amendment directing that the only thing that SCOTUS could decide on would be the schedule for cleaning pidgeon poop off the Capitol dome. And then since they couldn’t hear any case about the constitutionality of said Amendment, it would stand. And yes, Congress has the power to do that, it would be perfectly legal. Congress could also do what they have done before when the court made decisions they didn’t like. Just completely fucking ignore their ruling. Not, that I think that this would be the right thing to do, but I’m beginning to think someone may need to shorten their fucking chain a tad.
From a certain slightly warped point of view, it’s okay to kill a professional killer. Though I wouldn’t kill an abortion doctor if given a chance, I am certain he saved a number of children by shooting this bastard. To get a mental handle on this messed-up situation- evil goes hand-in-hand with evil. Okay to kill babies, okay to kill their killer. I’m sure the doctor’s family members weep for him, but people wept for Stalin, Pol Pot and Hitler, too.
Welcome to our dark new world.
#27
Why do you disbelieve that a fertilized egg is a human being? What else can it be? There are only four things that ever change: Size, level of development, environment, and degree of dependency. Those four are constantly shifting from fertilization through birth to natural death, and there are no other substantive differences that could change it from “non-human” to human.
Besides which, you’re being silly when you claim that a complete organism like an unborn child is the same as a hair from your head. I mean, get real!
Murdering murderers is not allowed in the U.S. Killing in the name of God is not allowed either. Hopefully, his real punishment will happen after HE passes away. His example shames all those who purport to believers and followers of lord.
A REPUBLICAN EXTREMIST perhaps?
So when will the guy who ordered the ‘hit’ be arrested? When will BillO be sent to trial? Also in complicity are his bosses Roger Ailes and Rupert Murdock. They should all share a cell.
If the death penalty doesn’t apply to Scott, who should it apply to?
Yet, I don’t hear the conservatives screaming for it in this case of blatant pre-mediated murder.
(Oh, crap I did it again… expecting moral consistency from the conservatives.)
>> little people murder is kewl said, on January 29th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
>> Its ok for women to murder little people.
Oh just stop it and grow up.
Abortion is legal. It is not murder. You very well know that.
You can personally BELIEVE it is murder, just the way PETA thinks eating a chicken is murder, but that doesn’t make it so.
#32
IMO a fertilized egg is no where near being considered life. If a doctor fertilizes an egg in a lab, he is not creating a life. A fertilized egg is potential life just as a sperm and an unfertilized egg are potential life. Both require a significant degree of outside assistance to become life. By your definition, a sperm should be considered life since in theory, the only things that ever changes are the same items you mentioned: size, level of development, environment, and degree of dependency (which includes one more item: an egg).
Regardless of whether you agree or not, the fundamental issue is that there is extreme dissent as to when exactly life begins. With so much disagreement, it is better the leave the moral decision up to the mother and her doctor rather than impose the will of the State on everyone.
This guy should be punished for what he did. However I believe that he should be left to rot in a cell for the rest of his life. The death penalty would just make him a martyre in the eyes of those who believe like him. So let him rot.
As for the abortion issue. Pro-abortion advocates love to try and make this an issue of choice. However they don’t look at the choice of the father or the broader choice of having sex in the first place. So to say that this is purely an issue of choice is blatently false.
On the other hand, people are going to have abortions if they want to or not. Making it illegal is just going to put people in jail if not endanger their lives. Our current system helps create a safe environment for people to make the right decision for themselves. That is what our country is about. Giving people the option to live their lives as they see fit.
I however will try to impress upon my children to take responsibility for the choices they make. Including the idea that there is no way to guaranty that having sex will not get you pregnant. If you make the choice to have sex, you have to accept the responsibility of getting pregnant.
If the republicans had their way, women would be investigated by the FBI when they have miscarriages.
Thomas, #37
If a fertilized egg is only potential human life, then what turns it into real human life?
Hmm? Give me your best answer.
Carrie