Remember Occam’s Razor? Hard to accept the side that needs to twist and ignore and lie about the physical evidence to create a complicated theory using only the words of pre-science creative writers.
In almost every way, the “Garden of the Gods at Colorado Springs” excursion at the annual meeting of the Geological Society of America (GSA) last year was a normal — even enjoyable — field trip. Standard geologic terminology was used in the accompanying field trip guide, and throughout the trip itself. The trip leaders discussed past events in terms of millions and billions of years. At each stop along the trip, the guides relied on orthodox geologic thinking, including a standard examination of sedimentary features and the nature of contacts between units.
But in reality, the trip was anything but a normal geology field trip. Instead, it was an example of a new strategy from creationists to interject their ideas into mainstream geology: They lead field trips and present posters and talks at scientific meetings. They also avoid overtly stating anything truly contrary to mainstream science.
But when the meeting is over, the creationist participants go home and proudly proclaim that mainstream science has accepted their ideas. It’s a crafty way of giving credence to creationism. But is there anything mainstream scientists, or the conveners of meetings and field trips, can or should do about it?
#84 Taxed Enough Already Dude said: “Therefore we have no motive to “twist it” and your charge we do is smear only.”
I will point out to you that I said in #78: “Why shouldn’t creationists twist science to fit their views? Scientist’s have been doing for years.”
The “smear” was not mine, but Uncle Dave’s headline. I was slamming Scientist who have been perverting science for their own political/social agendas.
Looking at the excessive amount of postings on this topic you’ve made, you need to step away from the computer and take a break. You’re attacking people (me) who are not necessarily in opposition to your own views.
#101 I apologize, clearly I erred.
But it wasn’t meant as an attack, it was a defense of Christians.
#94 Taxed Enough wrote “But in no event would God reveal Himself physically as it is impossible, He is infinite and if He appeared in our Matrix, being ‘super substantial,’ our reality would cease to exist, no room left for it to inhabit.”
Your claim is contradicted by scripture. I can think of at least two occasions where the Bible says that your Creator appeared to Abraham, and did so in a physical form as Abraham was not in a sleeping/dreaming state. On one of those occasions (Gen 18), Abraham even killed a choice, tender calf and gave it to his servant to prepare a meal, and Sarah baked some special bread. This was all done to feed the Lord and his traveling companions. There are also a number of instances when the God of your Bible supposedly spoke in an audible voice, not just “speaking” through their imaginations. An obvious example of your god supposedly taking a physical form is with Jesus. Some sort of physical manifestation is not as impossible for an omnipotent deity as you claim it is.
Surprisingly, the Matrix didn’t implode or otherwise malfunction on these occasions, so maybe you’d better revise your Matrix theory. My feeling is that any deity capable of assembling the universe from subatomic particles without detailed instructions is probably powerful enough to appeal to one of our primary senses, and doesn’t have to rely on our imaginations. Wakan Tanka (the Great Spirit), worshiped by some Native Americans, appeals just as strongly to our imaginations, as do other deities, so any EXISTING god would have to meet a higher burden of proof than mere imagination in order to take the lead in the Deity Derby. So far, nothing sets your Creator apart from the other Creators who have been imagined, described, and worshiped throughout mankind’s history.
It’s truly amazing what lengths you’ll go to in order to “prove” such a moronic group of myths, all centered around a “loving” deity who viciously punishes those who reject him, even to the extent of killing their children. The absolute worst-case scenario is that YOURS is the deity who actually created us all, and he did so in his own image. That image is a very frightening one, although it would certainly explain why there seems to be so much evil in the world.
Whatever you might think of me and your perception of my hardened heart, the FACT remains that any deity who wants to be worshiped can vastly increase the number of his worshipers and their resolve to do his will with a simple manifestation of himself using the very senses that he supposedly gave us. Imagination does not count. I offer no proof, but to even the mildly intelligent, this is self-evident and logical. To true believers, it is not.
Tea Dude, I’m sending your script to Stephen King. We’re all living in Gods imagination. What a concept. He’ll have to fix up a lot of your illogic, but it should make for some great horror-fiction.
For instance, you say God reveals himself only to those who believe, and that is proof that he exists. Uh huh. Sort of like a salesman showing his exclusive single product ONLY to those who have already have bought one. You can’t expect people to be that stupid Alfred… it will ruin the whole god particle, spooky quantum matrix through a slit idea.
I would also edit out such things as “But in no event would God reveal Himself physically as it is impossible, He is infinite and if He appeared in our Matrix, being “super substantial,” our reality would cease to exist, no room left for it to inhabit.” Everyone who has read the Babble knows that God is a man. He’s probably very well hung too (wouldn’t you be if you had that power?) But since you plot relies on us existing in God’s thoughts in a matrix, I wouldn’t have him so easily defenseless to being able to reveal himself. Priests reveal themselves all the time. Besides, if our reality ceased to exist because God couldn’t keep a thought in his head and reveal himself at the same time, wouldn’t he look rather deficient for the task?
As I said… very interesting story idea that I’m sure Stephen could mold into something very entertaining, but it needs a lot of work.
#97, benefits with funny money can’t buy as much.
And people will accuse those of selling the goods of greed because the price (in dollars) is so high.
Went to the matinee the other day with my son. It cost us each 17 dollars before we got out of there (one popcorn, one drink, one water, one hotdog, and two tickets). The price for the movie was 8.50 just for a MATINEE ticket.
It’s bad now.
#105 LibertyLover, I feel your pain!
Oops, I guess that’s been used
#104 Not original to me, it’s a function of black holes and its unlikely he hasn’t considered it already:
http:/scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=sidebar-the-holographic-p
But it fits the biblical data, as I documented, including creation “ex nihilo” and the doctrines of concurrence and omnipresence.
Only sinners fearing the Holy God would find the concept terrifying:
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. (Act 17:28 KJV)
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men (2Co 5:11 KJV)
I did not say God reveals Himself ONLY to those who believe, scripture has many examples of Him revealing Himself to His enemies…Book of Exodus has examples of this.
I didn’t law down a law when God reveals Himself, I cited the experience of many, including myself, that God revealed Himself personally to US when we repented, and believed, proving we had that quality of belief God demands, by making public confession of Him:
Although we live, move and have our being in God, He is invisible to us, separated from us…but when we believe, then He ends the separation opening the gate of heaven to us, and our spirit is then united to His Holy Spirit, He regenerates our soul, resting upon it continually. We become a new creature:
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(Rom 10:5-11 KJV)
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev 3:20 KJV)
To paraphrase, “don’t ask who will bring God down from heaven, or uncover His buried truth…In Him we live and move and have our Being so if we call to Him, He will answer, putting the word of salvation in our mouth and in our heart…God does not take any chances, His Elect predestined from before the foundation of the world receive the PETRA of Christ, and they will be saved…When they confess Jesus Christ is LORD YHWH the eternal Son, to the glory of God the Father. All who do this are saved.
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 10:32 KJV)
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ (2Co 5:17-18 KJV)
So the believer is now experientially connected to God His Saviour, he is in God, and God is in him:
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
(Joh 17:20-21 KJV)
This experience of meeting God and living with Him isn’t unique, millions down the centuries have described it precisely…its not a secret…every Bible believing church in the nation can show you precisely how to have this happen in your life.
16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.(Mal 3:16-18 KJV)
Back to your post, I won’t be rewriting what I said anytime soon, its scripturally correct and reflects the latest in quantum physics…Its possible.
Before evaluating my post, its best you spend some time researching holographic principle and quantum physics, particularly excellent start is on you tube, Dr. Quantum.
Happy learning.
God revealed Himself personally to US when we repented, and believed, proving we had that quality of belief God demands, by making public confession of Him:
To be more precise, God PUTS “saving belief” in the heart, and “saving confession” in the mouth of His children at the time of their repentance and calling out to Him, as a beggers of the Spirit:
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; (Rom 10:8 KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(Eph 2:8-9 KJV)
Our salvation is a gift of God that was granted before the world was, according to the good pleasure of His will…but it comes “through faith” that is “actualized” in our sphere of existence by God, at the time of salvation, when He responds to the answer of a good conscience to the Gospel of Christ.
TEAD, let me get this straight. Your only proof for this is the bible? Do you have any corroborating evidence to back that up other than a feeling in your heart, your faith?
1 Corinthians 3:18
Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a “fool” so that he may become wise.
Sounds like you are getting a bit uppity.
Someday all religions, including Christianity, will be studied as mythology, alongside ancient Greek and Roman mythology.
observer —
HOW DARE YOU! If I truly wanted to expose myself, I would strike you down where you stand!
#25
You assume things exist now precisely as God intended, but scripture reveals in its opening pages that isn’t the case.
Oh. So your deity is fallible? That rules out both omnipotence and omniscience.
we claim He is infinite in power, omnipotent and also, omniscient. Being omniscient its clear He CHOSE to give His creatures free will, and grants their choices have an eternal effect.
First, you have contradicted yourself in the same post. Second, omniscient by definition means free will does not exist. You cannot logically claim that there is no information not possessed by your deity and also claim that there also exists beings which are able to make decisions which your deity does not already know the result in advance. By definition, the concept of omniscience and free will cannot coexist. They fundamentally contradict each other.
#59
And Occam’s razor clearly favors creationism as it is elementary a building has a builder.
Only a warped interpretation. Occam’s razor starts with two equal explanations. The explanation proposed by creationism does not in any way merit consideration as science much less a valid explanation for how life began. It would be akin to putting the explanation that the moon is made of green cheese on equal footing with the explanation that it is a big rock in space.
#77
No, he must not reveal Himself to satisfy idle curiosity, that would diminish Him
Convenient but still immoral. The consequence, so we are told, of not believing is an eternity of damnation yet somehow providing tangible, unequivocal evidence for belief is considered idle curiosity? Both “true” and non-true believers alike will be judged based on what you have said yet your deity feels no obligation to provide sufficient tangible evidence as to convince everyone that it is planning on judging? That’s immoral.
So these people are being deceptive about their beliefs. I wonder how God feels about liars?
#114 As it doesn’t exist I would say not much of a concern.
So, Alfred. What do you think about this commentary: http://huffingtonpost.com/jonathan-dudley/christian-faith-requires-_b_876345.html
“But beyond a certain point, this reasoning breaks down. Because no amount of talk about “worldviews” and “presuppositions” can change a simple fact: creationism has failed to provide an alternative explanation for the vast majority of evidence explained by evolution.”
You guys are looking for reason. A religious belief system has been hacked by someone who uses it to support misogyny, bigotry and other irrational viewpoints.
Most people, including people of faith, would be appalled by this thinking.
#116 I disagree completely. So should any critical thinker, what he proposes is absurd.
These beliefs encouraged past Christians to accept the best science of their day
In the 1930’s Steady State was all the range, later the Big Bang…and now, who knows…”little bangs?”
http://raymondjclements.wordpress.com/2011/04/05/235/
Why leave certainty for uncertainty, especially when the evidence DOES support Creationism precisely as taught in the inerrant Word of God.
Jonathan Dudley isn’t arguing anything new, the premise is the Bible contains error, so believe other things…that argument is as old as the serpent deceiving Eve in the Garden of Eden:
“Did God really say, (Gen 3:1 NIV)
He then went on to contradict what God said and Eve (& Dudley) believed him.
I am a sola scripturaist. Whatever doubts I had about the inerrancy of scripture ended after thorough research on my part.
The science backing up Creationism is both compelling and plentiful. Any critical comparison of the lingering unknowns in the two models, proves those in Creationism are far less numerous or weighty.
Dudley is no different than others whose faith was destroyed by progressives teachers in religious universities.
#109 TEAD, let me get this straight. Your only proof for this is the bible? Do you have any corroborating evidence to back that up other than a feeling in your heart, your faith?
If my experience confirmed and collaborated by millions, in every race, nation, and tongue on earth, throughout history, cannot be trusted as evidence, by what law of logic are we to accept your beliefs?
AND the Bible is the perfect empirical experiment, it isn’t one book, its 66 different books written by forty authors over a 1,500 span of time on three different continents in three different languages by a vast variety of people, from sheep herders to Kings and priests.
Therefore, when these report they experience the SAME God, its consistent legal historical testimony that the God of the Bible is.
# 112 You assume things exist now precisely as God intended, but scripture reveals in its opening pages that isn’t the case.
Oh. So your deity is fallible? That rules out both omnipotence and omniscience.
Nothing I said indicated God is fallible, therefore your straw man is ruled out.
But that isn’t why I now comment.
The straw man you created, whipped your ass…and that was hilarious.
we claim He is infinite in power, omnipotent and also, omniscient. Being omniscient its clear He CHOSE to give His creatures free will, and grants their choices have an eternal effect.
God’s omnipotence and omniscience isn’t affected by man’s choices, your straw man therefore kicked your ass.