To all of my fellow New Yorkers who are undocumented, I say: New York City is your home too. #SOTC
— Bill de Blasio (@BilldeBlasio) February 10, 2014
Found by “Lieutenant Dan” McClure
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What a giant ass.
Pedro, I am not voting for you.
“Undocumented workers” Have no protection from osha and cannot pay income tax.
Why do you morans even bother with your stupid blathering about illegals? We all know they do the shit jobs American citizens don’t want to do. If they come up with fake SS numbers, they’re paying into SS for YOUR retirement and won’t be able to collect themselves. If illegals were truly eliminated from the US workforce your grocery (produce) bill would be higher, your restaurant bills would be higher, your housing bills would be higher, because they work for sub-minimum wage.
Y’all are just mailing it in now. Idjits.
The flaw in your logic is that our grocery bills would still go up because we would have to pay them minimum wage and not what they’re currently getting. Unless you plan to pay them sub-minimum wages after you’ve granted them legal status.
If the illegals were granted citizenship, all of our bills would still go up. They are untrained, so their salaries would be low, making them eligible for social services. And we know who those on social services vote for – those who would give them even more social services.
And how do you explain your flip-flop to those who have been working through the system legally? Do those with temporary visas have to leave when their visas expire? Why not go illegal and automatically get baptized? And what does that say to those who have not come over? It says, “Come on!”
The solution is to ship them all back, rework the system, and then let them back in. But that will never happen. The tipping point has been reached. Might as well open the gates, let them all in to consume what few services we do have, and watch it all burn down.
We can rebuild later.
The free market has spoken. We the people like the cheap stuff we buy from the businesses that employ illegal immigrants at below-market wages. I’d like to see a report that would explain to everyone what it would mean if all the jobs illegal immigrants currently fill at shit wages were filled by American citizens paid enough to do the job. For example: the agricultural industry.
from http://fairus.org/publications/illegal-immigration-and-agribusiness
Before people clamor for legalization OR kicking them all out, let’s see what the ramifications are. Because in either scenario, someone will need to be paid a decent wage for doing shitty work. And that’s going to cost all the rest of us more money.
So whether you’re advocating kicking them all out or legalizing them, the first thing you need to say to be believable is “I’m willing to pay more for the stuff illegals currently produce.” If you’re not willing, you’re not really serious about kicking them out or legalizing them.
I am not advocating either position at this point. I just don’t know what we should do.
You’re right.
1) We give them citizenship and then we’re forced to pay them minimum wage.
OR
2) We kick them out and let Americans take those jobs. At minimum wage.
In either case, the cost of labor goes up, and thus the cost of the goods they produce.
However, I strongly reject the option where we simply turn our heads and pretend they aren’t anything other than illegals because we want cheap goods. This creates a black market for cheap labor, just like there is a black market for drugs and any number of other things.
We have to decide if we are a country of laws or not.
If we decide we are the latter, then we should just admit that the great experiment has failed. Why have police, courts, and prisons? It’s every man for himself.
I don’t know what the answer is either, P. As I said, we’ve reached the tipping point.
Yup. I read a question somewhere: Are we (1) a capitalistic country that happens to be using a Democratic Republic currently as a form of government, or (2) a Democratic Republic that happens to be using a captialistic economy currently?
If the only thing on everyone’s mind is cheaper prices for the crap they buy, and they feel OK ignoring the problem with illegals, then it looks like (1) is true, and eventually we won’t be a democratic republic any more. Being slaves to our greed will lead us to a dictatorship of some kind.
On the other hand, if we the people believe there is something (anything!) more important than getting cheaper prices for the crap we buy, then we’ll gladly pay higher prices to keep our country a place where everyone can have a good shot at making a decent living, and (2) would be more true.
Unfortunately, it looks like we’re headed toward (1).
Unfortunately, the details are much more complex than what we’ve narrowed it down to.
The democrats are all in favor of granting them citizenship. This will bring in a whole bunch of votes.
The republicans are against it for that exact reason.
You can deny this out loud, but the truth of the matter is that this is how they vote. And racial matters come into play, too. “You’re disin’ my fellow wetbacks. I’m not voting for you!”
Thought Experiment: If every illegal immigrant woke up tomorrow morning republican, how fast would the two major parties swap positions?
However, BOTH sides are in favor of it because it opens up a whole new tax base. If these illegals were suddenly legal, they could tax them just like any other citizen (btw . . . I also feel this is the main driving force behind minimum wage increases, too, but that’s an argument for another day – I don’t think it is as altruistic as politicians claim in their sound bites). Republicans are in a tough spot – they want the cash but don’t get the votes along with it.
Thought Experiment 2: If we didn’t have income tax and only sales tax, would the idea of making them legal be easier or harder to swallow?
Thanks for your thoughtful contribution to the discussion, pedro.
Sorry LL, the R’s are already doing their best at pissing off everyone in the country but the top 1% and angry white guys over 60. They’ve pissed off women, young people, minorities, with the stupid things they’ve said and done. As far as I can see, only clever gerrymandering and the billions of dollars from the Koch brothers and other 1% types keeps the Republican party a viable entity. I think pretty much any new immigrant to the US who understands what’s going on will side with the Democrats. Has nothing to do with the issue of immigration.
But legalizing the illegals will be expensive. Period. They’ll get minimum wage, benefits, etc. Where’s the political power to make everyone pay more money so a small fraction of society can be treated more fairly (i.e. either given citizenship or sent back home so they won’t be second class citizens any more). Sure, it’s the right thing to do, morally speaking, but what politician is going to piss off his constituents by suggesting that? Money talks. They’re paid to bring home the bacon, not make life more expensive for their constituents.
I think pretty much any new immigrant to the US who understands what’s going on will side with the Democrats. Has nothing to do with the issue of immigration.
Now I know you’ve stepped off the deep end.
54% of Hispanics favor the democrats while only 19% favor the GOP. The main issue? Immigration.
It has nothing to do with Koch brothers. It is purely immigration related. The majority of the unskilled and uneducated illegal immigrants are not savvy enough to know what goes on in the Koch brothers’ boardroom. That’s just laughable.
The GOP has alienated the Latino vote in recent years, to judge from presidential election results. Mitt Romney, the 2012 Republican candidate, fielded just 27 percent of the Latino vote — the worst outing since Bob Dole’s unsuccessful 1996 campaign.
Many observers attributed Romney’s poor performance to his embrace of hardline immigration policies and rhetoric that Latino voters often found offensive. George W. Bush, who speaks some Spanish and backed immigration reform, won 44 percent of the Hispanic vote in 2004.
As I said, you can yell all you want about that not being true, but that doesn’t change the fact. Poll after poll has shown this to be true.
Where’s the political power to make everyone pay more money so a small fraction of society can be treated more fairly
I paid $75,000 in taxes last year. How much did you pay?
I’m not disagreeing with you on the immigration issue, LL. Yes, the R’s are not popular with the hispanics because of immigration, that’s well known. I’m just saying that besides the immigration issue, the R’s have alienated most of the country.
Don’t know why you’re bringing up how much taxes anyone pays. My point is that the big corporations have the money to hire fancy lobbyists. I don’t, and I assume you don’t. So guess who gets laws passed? Not you or me.
Big corporations are the reason we have illegal immigrants. Because it’s profitable for the big corporations, and big corporations get what they want in America.
We can debate what’s right and wrong, what’s moral, what’s good or bad for the country, but nothing’s going to come of it. We have an oligarchy now — one dollar, one vote. :/
Re: one dollar, one vote.
That we agree on.
Probably no one’s reading this any more… but I never thought I’d actually see a rich person advocate “one dollar one vote” in public…
http://money.cnn.com/2014/02/14/investing/tom-perkins-vote/
“The agribusiness sector has consistently opposed an immigration policy that would result in a legal workforce. Their position is that current hiring practices are crucial for the survival of the industry, as Americans are not willing to do agricultural work and increasing wages to attract native-born workers would result in significantly higher food prices or a decline in American food production. Agribusiness lobbyist Sharon Hughes says, “We are either going to have our food produced by foreign workers here in the United States, or the farming process will move to foreign countries.”
Do these people even think before they speak? Wasn’t this the exact same argument the south used to defend slavery going into the Civil War? Personally, I AM against amnesty on principle if only because it rewards law-breaking and your first step to citizenship shouldn’t be to break our laws to do so. However, the argument that agribusiness is making has unfortunate implications, and has been seen before and they should really know better than to say something like that.
I agree — if not slavery, then at least a kind of indentured servitude. There is no mystery here, though. We know what to do to solve this problem: Make the penalties so painful for the employers that it won’t be worth their while to risk hiring illegals. Make it worth their while to hire Americans, which means paying a lot more, which means less profits for them, and you see where this is going. The solution is clear and simple, and yet it is not implemented. The reason why it is not implemented is that powerful business interests are making sure it’s not implemented.
Oh what job are they doing that Americans won’t do?
Or is that just more made up blather.
http://fairus.org/publications/illegal-immigration-and-agribusiness
That was a Mr ConFusion level of reading comprehension there. Your own link says that small farms are not going to be hurt all that much because they don’t hire illegals, who have gone in this report from undocumented to unauthorized.
They also reveal that big businesses have at most a 12% increase in costs, while a very large profit margin.
And the link doesn’t list jobs that Americans won’t do.
OK then, a 12% decrease in your pay isn’t a big deal. I tend to think a company wouldn’t like a 12% decrease in their profits. I know I wouldn’t like it.
pedro, it’s really great to see you having such a good time here. 🙂
Even if your “everything would be more expensive” theory would turn true – just try and meet someone who lost their living, completely to this trend. I know, personally, several construction business (have been) owners who were economically killed by unfair competition because they wouldn’t hire illegals and wouldn’t work off-books and pay sub-minimum wage. Simply, morally wouldn’t do that. People who we should want to prosper. Born Americans to boot.
Second, you should go to US embassy in some poor country anywhere in the world. And see people who could, but morally wouldn’t break law and sneak here illegally. Honest hard working people. Trying and failing to get legally in,… and guess what – NOT breaking law to get what they want/need. We should skew system for them, not predisposed law breakers. In my own immigrant community I know illegal immigrants. Some of them are hard working too. But all of them are morally not fit to have them dog-sitting, never mind more. That is what “legalization” crowd will be paying in quality of life on long term.
Finally, you say they pay in SS funds… Have you met anyone whose SS# and identity have been stolen for this purpose? Do you know how horrific and long lasting damage, almost uncorrectable that is? It is just another crime. (And again I have a close and personal example: my nephew’s SS# was stolen for such purpose while he was a kid and hence not found out for a while – sat tweedling thumbs for a year+ after high school as no University would accept him despite pristine academics… and even after correction he suffers consequences, likely his whole life he will).
Solution must not be to support this wrong self-selection. Make 11+ mil’ self-deport by obstructing their ability to earn and live here: real document checking for employment, severe punishment for businesses (if you hire illegal you should lose business completely and serve jail time) who scam, no banking for illegals (bank CEO to jail if they do),… open floodgates on legal immigration equally from all parts of the world and for all job levels. Term “immigrant” must not have certain locality attached to it. If it does, something is wrong. (And for positive personal example of that: my best student ever was an Ethiopian legal immigrant. Bent on success and incredibly capable. Not destined to Government handouts despite real poverty. Destined for pulling this country up).
Read my previous comment. The things you suggest could be done. Are you willing to pay more, possibly much more, for your vegetables, and other goods that illegals currently produce getting paid shitty wages? Harvesting lettuce is brutal, grueling work. You want to pay Americans enough money to make it worth their while, great. Just be willing to pay a LOT more for it at the grocery store.
And construction… go ahead, tell Americans everywhere that they will have to pay more for their new houses, and businesses that they will have to pay more for their new buildings, and pass the costs on to their customers.
The sad thing is, morals take a back seat when it comes down to money. That’s Capitalism. Completely amoral.
Well?
I don’t know what kind of privileged background you come from Fido, but this argument that Americans can’t or wont do menial labor is specious. I took all the “shitty” jobs growing up. I’ve picked in orchards, I’ve been a janitor, restaurant dishwasher, paperboy, stock boy, construction laborer, working my way up to a RR section gang, (that’s spiking ties on a track gang the old fashioned way, by hand), joined the military and used the GI Bill for college.
If the youth are unwilling to take menial jobs and work their way up like some of us “lazy Americans” did, its because your parents failed you in some way.
Time to give it a rest.
And were you paid minimum wage for those jobs, Gassy, or were you paid shit under the table?
The point is not that people won’t do menial labor, but that they don’t want to do it for shit wages. Is that “lazy”? People want to be paid enough to enjoy the “American Way” lifestyle. Nowadays it seems that includes lots of expensive toys. Maybe we’ve gotten to expect too much. Lifestyles of the rich and famous, and all. I don’t know.
http://fairus.org/publications/illegal-immigration-and-agribusiness
Both, some jobs paid shit under the table, some paid shit over the table and the government took a large chunk of that shit. I’ll use the military as an example of that. You put your life on the line for years being paid almost nothing (2 weeks pay = $157.00 for average 80 – 100 hours of work per week). All with the goal of using the experience to better yourself.
Either way, minimum wage isn’t supposed to garner you a Rich and Famous lifestyle. Its just a place to start.
There is a minimum wage now, you can’t realistically expect to live off of, god forbid try to raise a family on. So guess what…you don’t have the luxury of starting a family until you can provide for them, tough shit.
Grow up.
But that’s the whole point, tough guy… there isn’t a minimum wage in these jobs the illegals have, it’s way below minimum wage. To pay the illegals (or Americans if you boot them out) minimum wage at those jobs would be a big increase in the cost of the goods and services they provide. And as much as people blather about either kicking them out or legalizing them, nothing’s getting done. It looks like we the people like buying our cheap stuff and we don’t really care that it’s being produced by illegals being paid less than minimum wage.
Shh, he thinks illegals are manning all these jobs right now. They are not.
google is your friend, Mike.
Gassy, pedrito, Mike… well? You willing to pay more for your stuff once we boot out all the illegals? Put your money where your (big) mouths are, boys.
And good luck booting them out. It’s not eeeevul libruls keeping them here, it’s big business, who employs them, pays them shit wages, and makes big fat profits off them.
Anyone? Bueller?
You don’t think you are going to pay more supporting illegals and their families?
How stupid are you, really?
I don’t know who you think you’re arguing with, tough guy, but it’s not me. I just asked you a simple question. Are you willing to pay more for the stuff you get that’s now made cheaply by illegals, once it’s being made more expensively by American citizens? Is that too complicated a question for you?
I have to side with Phydeau on some of this (and it’s early in the year – holy shit).
Kicking out 11M immigrants is economically and logistically unfeasible.
We can’t just make them citizens either. It sends a bad message that the rule of law is gone.
Assuming we could come up with some way to make them citizens that made everyone happy (a magic wand or something), then the labor costs will go up on nearly every under-the-table job they have. Companies won’t eat that cost because companies don’t pay expenses. Their customers do.
He’s admitted that he doesn’t know what the answer is. I don’t know what the answer is. And I haven’t seen anyone else here with an answer either.
The only way to get them to go back is to make it economically impossible for them to reside here – i.e., take their jobs from them.
The only way to take their jobs is to fine the fuck out of companies using black-market labor. And that won’t happen because they own too many legislators.
I’m open to suggestions. Anyone?
Somehow people managed to buy things when there were no illegal immigrants doing all the jobs, which in reality is a minority of the jobs.
Besides, aren’t you liberals always whining about free trade? Are you willing to pay more for imported goods?
Pedro,
Never happen.
Tipping point.
As soon as someone says they are tough on immigration and say they are going to do anything other than make it easier for illegal immigrants to stay in the country, their changes of being elected drop to 0.
Don’t kid yourself, it’s not eeeevul libruls keeping the immigration problem from being solved, it’s big business, who likes things fine just the way they are.
Any politician who makes noises about immigration reform will get squished by big business.
Big business doesn’t elect them.
That is so cute LL! A touching faith that hundreds of millions of dollars in lobbying, campaign contributions, and dishonest advertising doesn’t affect the electoral process! (probably billions by now)
It’s so nice to know such dewy-eyed idealists still exist. 🙂
Then why haven’t the democrats done something?
Are you saying the democrats are beholden to Big Business, too, and are lying to their constituency?
Stuff was more expensive when Americans made it, Mike. Our American motto is “always get it cheaper”. And it’s mostly Republicans (i.e. big business) who wants free trade. At this point, I’d be willing to pay more for stuff made in America.
So you’re willing to pay more for stuff made in America, but not if its made by Americans?
No, made by Americans, either the illegals given citizenship, or other Americans if the illegals are kicked out. Though I’d tend to want to keep them… people who have enough drive and determination to come to a different country to earn a living are all right in my book. The lazy ones are still sitting back home in Mexico or whatever.
Your argument is true for the most part. But that only works if they all stay illegal. Once they are given visa/citizenship, they will start taking away decent jobs Americans actually do want, asking for higher wages, demanding tax-funded entitlements, etc, etc.
So if you support illegal staying in US only as illegal, then I say you do make a great point.
“”Your argument is invalid; I am ironing a kitten:
Steve Martin irons a kitten (1969)
http://lllooolll.com/funny-images/i-am-ironing-a-kitten/
I don’t know which is more stupid. The welcoming of a Trojan Horse into the country in the form of undocumented workers, or the interpretation that undocumented or even “illegal” is exactly that of being a “lawbreaker”. Because calling an immigrant a lawbreaker (which though technically correct) is a bit harsh and brings about immages of gangland style crime. It’s nothing like that at all!
The thing you need to understand is that the vast majority of “illegal” aliens are only “illegal” because the LEGAL system that allows them to become U.S. citizens (and full fledged taxpayers) is hopelessly BROKEN!
Most of you probably have no idea what all this imigration crap is even about. Think about it! No other FREE country in the worls makes an immigrant to that country wait 30 YEARS just for the priviledge to WORK and pay his/her fair share of TAXES!
I’m one of the lucky ones. I, like my parents, grand parents, etc., was born here. But I can guarantee you one thing: somewhere along the way someone in my family tree – just like more than 90-percent of YOU – came to America the EXACT same way. They IMMIGRATED!
So what part of “illegal” don’t you understand? Care to discuss those “illegal” TAXES on things like LABOR?! Or how about the “illegal” banking system that we all got to bail out? Or how about Obamacare?! It’s not like anyone is exactly READING the laws these days or anything.
But if none of that means a damn thing to you then maybe you should go read the words on the Statue of Liberty: “Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses yerning to breath free.” I mean, WHAT THE FUCK?! Now we have “illegal” immigrants?!!! When the FUCK did THAT happen?! During the 50’s when we came up with the Pledge of Aligence which includes those contested words “under god” and when most of white America either was in, or knew someone in the KKK?!!!
WAKE THE FUCK UP!
This isn’t an “R” versus “D” issue. It’s about keeping our word to the rest of PLANET EARTH when we decide to live by our own LAWS that we lay out in documents like the United States Constitution and Declaration of Independance!!!
…And if you don’t like it, you’re welcome to LEAVE!
Hey Dummy–you do a nice switch there. Complaining about the law only being “technically” violated and then dummying on as if the illegal status had ANYTHING to do with becoming a citizen….THEN you cartwheel off on your own made up totally incorrect definition of the illegality of taxes?
Ha, ha.
Quite verbose for such a loon. All personally crafted too which indeed is a nice touch.
Our other resident Alfie, TeadDud has once again changed his nom de flame. I don’t know why he changes his name if he isn’t going to change his persona. Obama who Should Be Impeached==why do you do that?
Good free market system on display: when your citizens don’t want to do a job, employers are supposed to pay more. Thats the heralded dynamic. But in our corportocracy, when labor wants too much, we import illegals. Why shouldn’t the dish washer, ditch digger, or the waitress make much more than they do? Indeed–I don’t want to do it. I picked oranges for 3 days. Only fun part was the bus ride.
Just look.
Crap–lost my way there. Alfie==hes the other resident loon who posts at length but his is mostly cut and paste.
Pedro Donkey Block: my own lengthiest posts are deconstructions of other people’s drivel…or quite good postings worthy of the effort.
I might be biased.
Border Control: It is an interesting subject. I can see several pogroms taking place in Europe against the Muslims. Not that Muslims “deserve” it in any way. Its just what cultures in conflict do. Irony: they aren’t even doing it for the cheap labor. They really are: UnAmerican.
“NYC Mayor Welcomes Lawbreakers”
Lawbreakers?
There’s a teeny tiny difference between a thief and an undocumented immigrant who lived and worked hard, most of his life, honestly, without breaking any law.
Perhaps McCullough should read about the Statutory Interpretation of the Law and then see if the NYC Mayor is REALLY welcoming lawbreakers or just UNDOCUMENTED workers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_interpretation
The undocumented do work hard and do support the economy but also use social services. If we set limits on immigration for a reason then to reward those who come into the country illegally does not make sense to me.
That being said
Democratic leaders like the undocumented for as they become citizens through amnesty widen their voting base.
Republican leaders like the undocumented to drive wages down.
win/win
Undocumented? They have plenty of documents including Mexican consular ID cards.
What they are is illegal immigrants.
The word “immigrant” talks about something which has legal status. Your ancestors probably had legal status as had most of us.
The currently out of favor term, “illegal alien” is exactly correct.
Don’t worry. I’m sure Dallas will be along to parrot Obama’s bogus claim of ‘record deportations’. Reality is lowest deportations since Nixon.
It is too hard to become a US citizen. I think this infographic explains the dilemma. http://visual.ly/what-part-legal-immigration-dont-you-understand
That graphic is supposed to justify illegal immigration?
Compare that to the charts of other countries and it is actually very easy.
No wonder Hillary and Bill live there.