Just because someone “believes” something does that mean the rest of society has to respect that? Has religious freedom gone too far? We have freedom of speech but you can’t yell “Fire” to cause a panic. It seems to me that when you have a religion that’s going around killing people in the name of God that it crosses a line.

What religion do you think of when you hear about terrorists, beheadings, torture, rape, throwing acid in the faces of little girls going to school, honor killing, jihad, stonings, modern day crucifixion? The list goes on.

I think that what you do is what you believe and you can argue that “most Mislims don’t kill” but most people in a Army don’t kill either. But they support those who do kill.



  1. Rex says:

    So what are you proposing we do? In our free country we have to put up with this crap. Some people might want you, Marc, to be jailed for your liberal views. I would hope that as people become better educated that religion will fade away (probably won’t happen).
    In other parts of the world we need to let them sort this out for themselves. The only reason they attack us is because we are messing around over there. Leave them alone and let them kill each other. Eventually they will figure out that this is not a good way to live, just like the Europeans did.

  2. Carl says:

    I agree that we are responsible for a lot of the blow-back we are now witnessing. We (and that includes both D’s and R’s, but not L’s) in our aspiration to bring Democracy to the world, have destabilized these countries to the point of chaos. Face it, some countries are just better off with a strong dictatorial type government. We should have let them be.

    General Wesley Clark:

    “This is a memo that describes how we’re going to take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran.” I said, “Is it classified?” He said, “Yes, sir.” I said, “Well, don’t show it to me.” And I saw him a year or so ago, and I said, “You remember that?” He said, “Sir, I didn’t show you that memo! I didn’t show it to you!”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw

    • MikeN says:

      Wesley Clark nearly started a war with Russia over Kosovo.
      The British NATO guy refused to follow his orders.

  3. Mr Diesel - No more bush in the White House, Hillary's or Jeb says:

    Sure, just like all religious nutjobs.

  4. jerry says:

    No Islam does not deserve religious freedom in the US because of their very core belief in the Koran, which makes it legal to them to do all sorts of damage, include kill, any non-believers. There are over a billion Muslims which makes it impossible to control the fringe groups which actually numbers in the hundreds of millions. They are too backwards, too much a drain and too much a menace to society. Their religion, if you can call it that, is even worse than Satanism, who don’t kill people en masse like Islam does.

    The only hope Islam has of fitting into modern day society is if there is a revolution by the women of Islam. The men are strictly stone age and will not abide by any country’s rule of law, only wait for a time to take over with their awesome numbers.

    • jerry says:

      Mohammed, by his very actions and life, is the anti-Christ. What he believed and did in his life, the blood-thirsty actions and all sorts of horrible things, was diametrically opposed to Christ, who believed in peace and turning the other cheek.

      • ± says:

        You are wrong if you think the Islam superstition can (in today’s world) be effectively countered by invoking another superstition.

        Only rational thought can prevail. And it could turn out to be very rational to turn large portions of the Moslem world into molten glass.

  5. Why is that the senior American politicians always preface the term “Islam ” with “The Religion of Peace” ? Yet no other preface is given to other faiths ?
    Should not Christianity be prefaced with “The Religion of Forgiveness” ?
    Yet the description has its basis in actual comprehension of the Islamic viewpoint or culture
    The term Islam or Muslim denotes “submit ” or “submission” to the viewpoint and tenets of Islam
    Peace will exist in the world ( according to Muslim tenets ) when all submit and are submissive to Islam
    Bunch of Slobs

    • NewFormatSux says:

      And the media always say ‘the prophet Mohammed’, as if it’s a fact. How many would say ‘Christ the Saviour’?

      Then you have schools that indoctrinate in Islam as if its just a cultural thing.

  6. Hmeyers says:

    You don’t have make thoughts illegal.

    You aggressively prosecute where violence is advocated.

    And limit immigration, specifically don’t let 15-25 year old Muslim males immigrate here in high quantities.

    Stupid policies don’t necessitate a stupid solution like “thought crimes”.

    Fix the policies to reflect the fact that young Muslims males in particular are a demographic risk for hate crimes and terrorism.

  7. spsffan says:

    Doesn’t anyone recall the Spanish Inquisition?

    • IM73 says:

      I hope you’re not implying that it was representative of the followers of Christ. If so you are seriously mistaken.

      • ± says:

        All superstitions which vie to control your life and your thoughts and actions are equally culpable. I think that is what spsffan was saying.

      • spsffan says:

        Well, then, how about the child raping priests? And those who sheltered and covered up for them?

        Heck, even the good old USA has a nasty history of murdering the people who were here first. Not to mention importing and enslaving Africans. All in the name or good old Christianity!

        Not that the atheist Soviet Union under Stalin was any better. Also, China, Cuba, North Korea.

  8. bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

    Well said Marc. Same ideas been rolling around in my mind, but you stated the issue just right. Its a balance of interest and a balance of reality vs wishful thinking.

    Various studies/polls report anywhere from 5 to 20% of Muslims believe in the One World Caliphate. Why should any large group of them be given admittance to our country????????

    The one question I never hear answered: what is the benefit to any country in providing refugees with sanctuary? “Its a humanitarian value”==>is NOT a benefit.

    H Myers: notice that most home grown terrorists are from the second generation who are “self radicalized.” CULTURE/RELIGION is a strong force…especially for the weak minded.

    Lots of weak minded silly hoomans dragging their sorry asses around in this world.

    Yea, verily!

    • McCullough says:

      But bobbo – what about THE CHILDREN!!!

      • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

        The baby rattlesnakes? I did forget about them. Seems to reinforce all the concerns though. As said to HMyers: the first wave/generation of refugees/immigrants values the freedom, the second wave/aka kiddies/aka baby rattlesnakes are drawn back to the roots of their culture that has been idealized: home grown terrorists.

        Happens less in america because the immigrants find economic opportunity, supposedely achieving the societies average with the second generation. Not so in Europe/eg: France where 3 generations after immigration, they are still relegated to the ghetto.

        A REAL PROBLEM, that can only get worse. People hate FREEEEEEEEEDOM, even in the land of the free. Just look at our own religious bigots. Now imagine their ideas had just one more component: the mandate to take over the gubment. Not just a personal druther…but right from the Good Book?

        Fortuneatly, America does have enough factions to keep each other in check…..so far.

    • Hmeyers says:

      If a 2nd generation immigrant commits terrorism, kick his family out of the country.

      Let it be known that is the policy.

      Enjoy your 12 virgins while your mother and siblings get kicked back into the 3rd world? I think not.

  9. IM73 says:

    Islam is the spiritual opposite of Christianity. It was instituted by a self-professed prophet whereas Christianity was instituted by God and is the antithesis of all those things you mention, Marc

    • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

      Hey!–That is good news. “Faith in Jesus” then you can do anything you want to do.

      Good deal.

  10. NewFormatSux says:

    That picture you have is not helpful. Before it was pens and saying je suis charlie, and now you have this peace symbol of solidarity. The pens didn’t help, and neither will this.

    How many newspapers put up cartoons of Mohammed when the first cartoonist was attacked? Instead Comedy Central censored South Park. Molly Norris created Everyone Draw Mohammed Day, and now she is in hiding under an alias.
    Every newspaper should have been printing cartoons front page after the first attack, instead they post editorials about the religion of peace and give themselves congratulatory awards about how courageous they are.

  11. ECA says:

    Lets see…
    China,
    Singapore,
    Indonesia..
    And probably more..
    DEMOCRACY?? IRAN is a democracy..REALLY it is..

    NOW we have 4 countries, including USA and russia, bombing another nation…is that a democracy bombing other nations??
    WE have millions Running away from the bombings…Why?? you dont need to answer..

    there is a Strnage RULE about Military nations…we have to PROVE our weapons work best…and they will find ANY reason to do it..

  12. Eddie says:

    Agreed: A “religion” that legitimatizes and encourages murder cannot be tolerated in a civilized world. Agreed that all soldiers bear responsibility even when only some pull the trigger. As a veteran I find that a very appropriate analogy.

    Having allowed them to settle among us, wisely or otherwise, presents us with limited options for defense. There is only one option that gives us defensive capabilities without totally destroying our own civilization, and that is surveillance. Extreme, unlimited, unending surveillance that will tell us when one of them wipes his nose, and how many times.

    It is technology that enables them to communicate while spread out across the world. Technology must be the tool that is used to counteract this advantage. “The solution to the problems caused by technology is always more technology,” as Asimov wrote.

    Yes, surveillance of this type will impinge on the freedom of law-abiding peace loving citizens. But since we have already danced, we now have no choice but to pay the piper.

  13. GOD says:

    I think we keep getting taught the lesson of dehumanization over and over again and somehow nobody ever learns anything. Sure! Anyone can make the argument that being a Muslim is a fundamentally wrong/evil practice. But then, so too is Buddhism (lest we not forget what Japan did in WWII)! Or even Christianity!!!

    Yes, your argument that one job of a soldier is to kill and that the vast majority of soldiers are only there for support. But when you make that argument you completely forget what a soldiers real job is which is to PROTECT — not kill unless absolutely necessary.

    And when you twist that logic and apply it towards a religion, you’re really just applying a slightly different spin on our old friend (said sarcastically), prejudice. Because I only know of one religion where killing, mayhem, and any general acts of barbarism are it’s belief structure — and it’s NOT Muslim. The disgusting religion I am speaking of is Satanic Ritual! And yet, even most of those misguided people don’t kill. So go figure.

    Here’s the thing. It’s just too easy to lump a large group of people into one category and label them as inhuman, evil bastards and then base that prejudice on what a few misguided members have done. Just like your soldier comparison, do all soldiers intentionally kill unarmed defenseless children whenever possible? Don’t the majority of soldiers — even those in combat — prosecute bad soldiers who commit “war crimes” like that?!

    In this case, I simply don’t see anyone able to condemn the fringe element of Muslims who do the horrible things that small groups like ISIS are doing. But then, I don’t see anyone in the Christian community dealing with the likes of Preacher Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist church either. (The only difference between each group is their severity of harm.)

    A person’s choice of religion is only slightly less important than one’s own race since it is possible to change one’s beliefs. Quite simply, having brown skin, being from the middle east and believing in a religion that professes love and tolerance is not wrong or evil. Only INDIVIDUALS who DO bad things should be held accountable for their bad acts — NOT their religion. It is only unfortunate that any real evil has found a religion so easy to be taken advantage of. (But then, that can be said of nearly any religion.)

    Remember: any counter to evil must be truth. But then there’s the rub, any “truth” will only be derived from what it taught!

    … said an Atheist.

    • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

      Well………I’m an atheist too, as well as an Anti-Theist.

      Just about everything you say is wrong, or wrong headed. You must be some kind of whack-a-bird humanist?

      Lets Parse:

      I think we keep getting taught the lesson of dehumanization over and over again and somehow nobody ever learns anything. /// Some groups/ideas ARE worthy and should be dehumanized: Nazi’s, Maoist Collectivists, Genocidal Hutis…etc. Scores of them. Now, we have Middle East Muslims.

      Sure! Anyone can make the argument that being a Muslim is a fundamentally wrong/evil practice. /// Thats not what Marc posted. This and most of your screed is your own wholly contrived Straw Man argument.

      But then, so too is Buddhism (lest we not forget what Japan did in WWII)! Or even Christianity!!! /// Comparing out right war with a clash of cultures? Heh, heh, Very Weak.

      Yes, your argument that one job of a soldier is to kill and that the vast majority of soldiers are only there for support. But when you make that argument you completely forget what a soldiers real job is which is to PROTECT — not kill unless absolutely necessary. /// You obviously have never served in, nor been attacked by, any military. I have to rest now as the image of “Peace is Our Profession” sign gets shot up in Dr Strangelove.

      And when you twist that logic /// what logic? You have presented some made up and erroneous factual allegations…but no logic.

      and apply it towards a religion, you’re really just applying a slightly different spin on our old friend (said sarcastically), prejudice. /// As we all should. Prejudice: Pre Judging. Everyone, regardless of belief system including Muslims, SHOULD BE PREJUDICED against anyone who states they want to kill them.

      Because I only know of one religion where killing, mayhem, and any general acts of barbarism are it’s belief structure — and it’s NOT Muslim. /// Factual Error. Thats exactly what Jihad to establish a World Wild Caliphate means.

      The disgusting religion I am speaking of is Satanic Ritual! And yet, even most of those misguided people don’t kill. So go figure. /// I figure you crossed over into Fruit Loop territory.

      Here’s the thing. It’s just too easy to lump a large group of people into one category and label them as inhuman, evil bastards and then base that prejudice on what a few misguided members have done. /// Only you have done that.

      Just like your soldier comparison, do all soldiers intentionally kill unarmed defenseless children whenever possible? /// Marc EXPRESSLY SAID just the opposite. In fact, it was rather the main point of his review. You don’t read real close.

      Don’t the majority of soldiers — even those in combat — prosecute bad soldiers who commit “war crimes” like that?! /// No. Its as close to ZERO as you can get. Not zero….just close.

      In this case, I simply don’t see anyone able to condemn the fringe element of Muslims who do the horrible things that small groups like ISIS are doing. /// The World outside of the Middle East all do.

      But then, I don’t see anyone in the Christian community dealing with the likes of Preacher Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist church either. (The only difference between each group is their severity of harm.) /// Ha. ha. What do you know?==>the severity of harm is the very issue at hand. Well, that and numbers. A dozen family members with no power at all vs 2 Billion Muslims with lots of oil/nukes/armies/power. Yes…your equating of the two reveals the paucity of your analysis.

      A person’s choice of religion is only slightly less important than one’s own race since it is possible to change one’s beliefs. //// Another loopy analogy.

      Quite simply, having brown skin, being from the middle east and believing in a religion that professes love and tolerance is not wrong or evil. /// Correct. Everyone agrees.

      Only INDIVIDUALS who DO bad things should be held accountable for their bad acts — NOT their religion. /// When individuals hide in a group that protects them, that group will ultimately have to bear the same punishment that the active individuals deserve by rights. Its called guilt by association, guilt by acquiescence, group dynamics, culture identity….etc.

      It is only unfortunate that any real evil has found a religion so easy to be taken advantage of. (But then, that can be said of nearly any religion.) /// As you reference but fuck up: its a matter of numbers.

      Remember: any counter to evil must be truth. But then there’s the rub, any “truth” will only be derived from what it taught! /// Truth is: you are an idiot. Probably well meaning but would sleep with rattlesnakes because not all snakes are bad.

      Sucks to be you.

      As stated: nice OP Marc. I only hope and wish that my Muslim brothers would wake up to and remove the cancer that they have allowed to grow within themselves for all too long.

      Gee….I’m too tired for that new Muslim poster. Think I’ll have a beer first.

      • Hmeyers says:

        Bobbo made several valid points.

        Whenever I see the words “I am an atheist” I know what comes next is going to be stupid, emotional and bad logic.

        And it was.

        The reason atheists always spout non-sense is rather than have their own identity, they choose to be defined by the opposite of Christianity.

        Not the opposite of religion — the opposite of Christianity.

        And the opposite of a religious nut is just another nut with an agenda and his own special pair of rose colored glasses.

      • Hmeyers says:

        Generic “atheist” Muslim template:

        (Say that all religions are equally bad)
        (Unsuccessfully equate horrific Muslim act with a minor Christian act.)
        (Mention Pol Pot or some Asian atrocity).
        (Hook back to real enemy, Christianity.)
        (Mention science or truth).
        (Insert some smarmy conclusion that doesn’t make any sense and is opposite of current situation).

        • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

          Reminds me of the joke: “I know you are an atheist, but which god is it you don’t believe in?”

  14. javad says:

    1) Leave them alone to sort their own stuff out. Look what a mess we have made of the ME.
    2) Stop endorsing them by buying their oil. We buy their oil and then turn a cheek when it comes to their humanitarian record. Obviously this suits us just fine.
    3) Stop bombing them. Refer to point 1. Really stop. Why are we surprised when people who have nothing left to lose (after we bombed them) that they spend all their energies on inflicting damage on us.
    4) Disclaimer: Yep, I am a Muslim.

    • jerry says:

      I agree that not buying their oil would be a good and less hypocritical step. I’d go further as in a total boycott.

      Bottom line for me is that Islam has to police itself. I understand that probably only a fraction of Islam is deviant and evil. But a fraction, say 10% of the total population of Islam would be over 100 million people, who can spread out all over the world and cause havoc.

      But on the other side you have 900+ million Muslims who for some reason refuse to police itself. Where are they and why can’t they use their overwhelming numbers to eliminate this evil cancer?

    • NewFormatSux says:

      It doesn’t matter if you don’t buy their oil. Someone else will, and oil is fungible. Currently the Saudi are doing even better by lowering the oil price substantially, hurting everyone including Russia, in a hope of destroying the shale producers.

    • spsffan says:

      Pretty good. Of course, the oil will find a market somewhere, but it doesn’t have to be on our conscious.

      Best to walk away from crazy people killing each other rather than joining in.

  15. NewFormatSux says:

    Why is Perkel now caring about the interests of the country when before he was more subservient to the interests of the migrants?

    Criticism of Obama by Perkel:
    “Children fleeing for their lives in Central America sent back to die.”

    • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

      RTF Post: fleeing kiddies from Central America aren’t Muslims. By and large, they are Catholics. …………….. whaaaaa?

      Yeah Marc: How come? The Great Catholic Conspiracy where we live under the Boot of the Fascist Pontiff in Rome is taking place right under you nose!!!!!

      Just turn on TV and watch those Jihadist Preachers threatening us with Mass Rupture, and Floods if we don’t comply with their demands.

      My Gawd……….we gotta take action against those kiddies sneaking in!!!!!

    • Marc Perkel says:

      This article is about Muslims – not immigrants.

  16. bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

    javad says:
    11/16/2015 at 11:54 pm

    1) Leave them alone to sort their own stuff out. Look what a mess we have made of the ME. /// We live in a shrinking integrated world. There is no “alone.” And if there was: then TAKE CONTROL of your own destingy and stop being so passive: Don’t sell us your oil. Ha, ha.

    2) Stop endorsing them by buying their oil. We buy their oil and then turn a cheek when it comes to their humanitarian record. Obviously this suits us just fine. /// Yep. I mostly agree here, but if we want the oil….how much self injury should we absorb for decisions made by and inflicted upon “other” people? We are not the worlds policeman etc. Existentially speaking: we are each responsible for OUR OWN actions. Not what the House of Saud does.

    3) Stop bombing them. Refer to point 1. Really stop. Why are we surprised when people who have nothing left to lose (after we bombed them) that they spend all their energies on inflicting damage on us. /// They have their lives to lose. So…again I mostly agree: Kill them all, or a sufficient number until they recognize what else they have to lose….and more importantly, what else they have to gain.

    4) Disclaimer: Yep, I am a Muslim. /// I’ll bet you don’t support any One World Caliphate?

    • javad says:

      Of course, there hasnt been a true Caliphate (in the Islamic sense) since more or less from the very beginning and even then there have been divisions amongst Muslims. Thats fine, everyone has an opinion.

      Fine, if we dont buy their oil someone else will. Or maybe they wont and these radical aholes will just wither and die.

      Stop interfering in other people’s countries. Yes we live in an increasing shrinking world but then you dont see us interfering in a country that no one gives two craps about.

      Point is if you see your neighbour,dad, mum, sister, wife child on fire and dead then that is probably strong catalyst for whatever is going to happen next.

      Out of interest how would we feel if they sat over there and bombed us to the stone age? My guess: Not very happy!

      • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

        Good reply javad, but isn’t the whole point that ISIS does indeed want to establish a World Wide Caliphate? Its what they have formally declared. This goes not to their odds of success, but their motivation that will influence their future actions.

        Short of the WWC…we have many instances of Muslim Communities in Western Europe, Canada, and USA trying to impose their religious values on the rest of society–not by arms but by refusal of service and so forth just like the Religious Christians Fundies. These groups can be dealt with all the same for the law violaters they are by denying their right to practice their religion as they would prefer to do.

        The difference though is that Muslim Religion is the only one that is at war “in its name” on the rest of mankind. Right now…. mostly on other Muslims, but that is just generating a head of steam.

        “Out of interest how would we feel if they sat over there and bombed us to the stone age?” //// I’d feel like Israel getting shelled from the Gaza Strip. But I agree. The height of hypocrisy for the President of France to act all upset that ISIS had committed “an Act of War” as if it wasn’t the expected result.

        Even with religious difference, all we people are more the same than different. That makes the divisions…very sad.

  17. Just Me says:

    Wait… isn’t that a slightly modified version of the “Anarchy” symbol?

    I don’t why I noticed it, but now I can’t un-see it.

  18. Michael the history guru says:

    Wow. Everyone has such a short sighted view of history.

    It doesn’t matter if it’s Islamic radicals, hippies, Mongols, Vandals, Persians, etc.

    For all of recorded history the east has attacked westward into Europe. Look at Ancient Greece and wars with the Persians.

    There is no solution. It will always go on. Like it always has.

    • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

      Greece attacked Persia to the East.

      Alexander attacked India to the East.

      China attacked Japan to the East.

      Napoleon attacked Russia to the East.

      Japan attacked USA to the East.

      Hitler attacked Russia to the East.

      England attacked the whole world in every direction.

      As a mater of fact…. deaths from war and number of conflicts is on the decrease.

      Shit in your pants much?

  19. bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

    How to turn a winning position into a loser:

    Donald Trump. Go from critically evaluating requests for refugee status to marking citizenship papers with a persons religion.

    I guess at his Business School, he skipped a lot of history.


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