“My name is Garfield, and I do not approve of this message.”
Associated Press – March 30, 2006:
In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.
Researchers emphasized their work does not address whether God exists or answers prayers made on another’s behalf. The study can only look for an effect from prayers offered as part of the research, they said.
They also said they had no explanation for the higher complication rate in patients who knew they were being prayed for, in comparison to patients who only knew it was possible prayers were being said for them.
I think the explanation is easy: God is punishing them because the people prayed to the wrong god! Despite being the only god, he is still a jealous god.
Dr. Harold G. Koenig, who did not take part in the story, had this to say…
Science “is not designed to study the supernatural.”
Gee, if only we could get Creationists to understand that.
SN wrote:
“I think the explanation is easy: God is punishing them because the people prayed to the wrong god!”
Exactly! They should be praying to Zod. Zod is the creator of God. But Zod is a malicious one. He created God so that He wouldn’t have to do His dirty work Himself so He could attend to His sheep (if you know what I mean… ;0 ) But God turned out to be a loving personality so Zod locked Him up in the closet so that is why God cannot answer our prayers. Zod is a bastard. He doesn’t give a crap about us. Women with big boobs do however get calls from Zod.
Silly? Prove it. Zod cannot be proven or disproved. But when I pray to Him I get laid. Zod exists. Zod is higher than God. He told me. Zod is the True pinnacle of existence. Your God is okay, but he is only number 2. I pray to Number 1.
Pray to Zod.
Heretic! The Flying Spaghetti Monster is the only true god.
If it makes someone feel better what difference does it make? By definition you can’t mix Science and Faith. Faith is a belief in what can’t been seen or proven. These studies are just foolishness.
the human consciousness includes a conscience that grows out of the fact that our preferred social structure (i.e. civilization) depends on humans acting, well, civil to one another. our survival instincts tell us that those who do harm to other individuals or to society as a whole, are doing harm to us, and we ascribe the labels good and bad to civil and uncivil behavior.
religion grows out of the fact that non-human things like plants, animals and natural phenomenon don’t seem to share our desire to protect humans. to wit, bears don’t mind eating people, and even though tornados do seem to target trailer parks, in general, nature is deaf to the pleas of humanity.
our pea brains have to come up with an explanation for why corn won’t grow when you want it to.
enter god.
throughout human history we have prayed for rain, prayed for the rain to stop, etc. and whether or not it works, we still do it, because it gives us a sense of control over a world that is not so infatuated with humans as we are.
since nature doesn’t care about us, and at times seems out to get us, and since there are humans that seem to act more like animals than humans, having a god that is more powerful than nature and humanity is very comforting indeed.
that being said, praying for some to be healed never hurt anyone, and it does make people feel good, so why would you discourage it?
that’s just godless. hahahahahahahaha!
Well that settles it, there is no god! An esteemed body such as this proves for all time what you already knew.
Now you can let go of these anti god-religious posts of yours and move on.
I suspect that won’t happen, you need to do this for reasons I’m sure you know.
“that being said, praying for some to be healed never hurt anyone, and it does make people feel good, so why would you discourage it?”
ken, that’s the whole point about this study. It actually does hurt the patient (“In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.”).
People who pray hurt humanity. While they pray for someone to heal them, man has sacrificied years of his life to study medicine so that he can cure the diseases that people suffer. People pray and get nothing. People study and get results.
Praying is for fools. Meditation is for the wise.
“Praying is for fools. Meditation is for the wise”
potAYto, potAHto
let’s call the whole thing off — hahahahahahahahaha!!!
I’m a firm believer in God and prayer, and a firm believer in the advancement of science. However, I see a lot of people who pray and just expect for everything to magically happen for them without lifting a finger of their own. If someone prays to be healed, but is not willing to put forth the effort and adherence to medical council, then their prayers are in vain. I have persoanlly found that in my own trials, God hasn’t simply taken them away from me, but I felt the extra strength and foresight that I needed to get through them. But I had to show some effort on my part. I imagine it’s the same for people who are lazy about their health. God can and does bless us, but we have our part to do. Most christians (which I am not) tend to be lazy people who just expect to be given whatever they ask for, but that’s not how it is. God doesn’t want us to be lazy people. He wants us to be like him. He knows how to heal us, and sometimes he just wants us to think things through and put forth the effort so that we can also see how to heal ourselves; but after we’ve done all we can do, then that’s where he comes in. Sorry… I’m done preaching…
I blogged a similar study last year (07/18/2005):
http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=2380
In May of 2004 I was diagnosed with a rapidly failing atrial valve and an atrial artery that was so large it was ready to rupture. I was dying and knew it as I got weaker every day while waiting for the surgery. The surgery was one of the most complex ever performed at the excellent hospital by one of the few surgeons with the skills and courage to attempt it. Replaced valve and artery with Dacron and pyrolite carbon substitutes, bypassed 1 artery, and burned away some false pathways to correct an atrial fibrillation problem that I had been hospitalized 5 times for and I was shocked back to normal on 3 occasions.
That’s the background. While I was being prepared to leave the hospital a minister visited and we talked and he offered to pray for me and with me. I politely declined because I felt that it would be hypocritical for me to pray to a god that I was not sure existed, didn’t want to piss him off if he is out there. I truly felt that I might have complications or die if I was a hypocrite.
So I CAN see how prayer could actually hurt a patient.
Now days I feel great most of the time even though I can feel and hear my heart beat most of the time and still haven’t gotten used to it, it sure beats the alternative. I had about a week to a month to live when the surgery was done.
Sorry this is long, I’ve never told about this before.
ken, praying uses mind (chatter is present). meditation uses above-mind (silence is present).
praying is easy to do. people do it all day long. meditation is incredibly difficult to do; it requires keeping the mind still and empty of thoughts, but yet fully alert.
NOT potAYto, potAHto, but rather Pp0T@to3, .
Charlie, I respect your beliefs but from my personal experience growing up Catholic I have come to the conclusion that there actually may be a God BUT it makes NO difference in my life whether believing it or not. I’m a sinner. I’ve broken the commandments thousands of times. I am a better person for it. I am wiser. I am more compassionate. I have a life without problems. I am free from misery. All this was accomplished without God. You want to give God credit. Fine. I do not. Why did God help me if I live my life shunning God?
Did these pointy-headed researching money-grubbers dare to correlate the prayers for the sick with the WILL OF GOD?????
I doubt it…
I am going to start praying for President Bush…
Maybe knowing that you’re being prayed for causes psychological stress, accounting for higher complications in those patients. That could offset any real effect that prayer may have. Also, there is a difference between praying for a specific outcome and for the best outcome. Praying for someone to get better may not be what God (or Zod or TFSM) wants as she/he/it moves in his/her/its mysterious ways.
Framitz (#10), thanks for sharing that. It’s an interesting and refreshingly honest recollection as opposed to “I went into the light and saw my father and he sent me back because it wasn’t my time yet”. I also think that positive thinking… belief in a doctor’s abilities, goes a long way to a successful outcome.
Charlie (#8), think about what you are saying, that If someone is lazy, gains weight, doesn’t exercise, eats lots of fat… and they die of a stroke, God didn’t help them because they didn’t help themself.
What about the people who follos a strict diet, exercise regularly, get medical advice regularly, live an honorable, caring, responsible life, believe in God and follow His teachings… and yet still die of a stroke because genetically, they are obese and are prone to strokes?
Of course, if you are average genetically, exercise and eating right will help you, and your chances of survival are greater. Adding God as a factor in that case is superfluous.
From the writings of Bishop John Spong:
“Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way.”
http://www.dioceseofnewark.org/vox20598.html
I read about this study a couple of days ago. I was just praying it would come up for discussion.
And yes, I have full faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and believe that he gave his only son, the Swedish Meat Ball, so that we might enjoy our noodles. I pray every day and twice during pasta over.
As a person who prays regularly, I have always been bothered by this attempt to prove that prayer works.
For me, this messes up the whole point of praying which is, ultimately, a mystical exercise to get closer to the heart of God. (or however you identify spiritual reality.)
To mix this up with empirical scientific data gathering is antithetical to the mystical nature of prayer and probably nullifies the positive affects that almost all regular prayers will tell you they experience.
I just don’t want to look up at my surgon and see HIM praying.
Science “is not designed to study the supernatural.”
Gee, if only we could get Creationists to understand that.
Yet it will go to the end of the universe to try to disprove the fact that: WE ARE NOT HERE BY ACCIDENT!!! The probability that we are here by accident is by definition supernatural, or a 100000000000000000000×10^42 to 1 chance. You wanna wait for those odds? I don’t that is why these outlandish studies are still done, there are better odds that these prayers work, than this (US) all being an accident. Everything has a purpose including this stupid post, maybe it will make someone take a chance to think outside the indoctrination of the narrow minded sciences of our days.
This whole thing made an interesting read. I enjoyed the humor of the skeptics and wish you luck when you die and find out what’s on the other side. As for me, I pray and I hang out with people who pray. We are kind of open-ended about it. If something good happens, we thank God. For instance, my uncle, with incurable cancer, had excellent doctors, good nurses, and a chance to visit with all his children before he died, in great peace. I saw the mysterious hand of God there. If you want to get testy about it and sneer at the lack of “proof,” that is your problem. Bill Taylor