Sarkozy says burqas are ‘not welcome’ in France

Published on June 22nd, 2009

The Associated Press: Sarkozy says burqas are ‘not welcome’ in France — This should be fun to watch. This garb seems more of a political statement than a religious one.

President Nicolas Sarkozy declared Monday that the Islamic burqa is not welcome in France, branding the face-covering, body-length gown as a symbol of subservience that suppresses women’s identities and turns them into “prisoners behind a screen.”

In a high-profile speech to lawmakers in the historic chateau at Versailles, Sarkozy said the head-to-toe Muslim body coverings were in disaccord with French values — some of the strongest language against burqas from a European leader at a time when some Western officials have been seeking to ease tensions with the Muslim world…

“The burqa is not a religious sign, it’s a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement — I want to say it solemnly,” he said. “It will not be welcome on the territory of the French Republic.”

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# 1 Alfred1 said, on June 22nd, 2009 at 10:46 pm

I agree.

# 2 nolimit662 said, on June 22nd, 2009 at 10:59 pm

I second that agreement. France needs to step up now before they become an Islamic state. The Islamic extremists have said time and time again their strategy is to convert first europe and then the world.

# 3 Palooka said, on June 22nd, 2009 at 11:08 pm

To paraphrase the article

Old Sarkozy hassled some women eieio

and all the women wanted to do was wear their Burquas eieio

With a Burqua Burqua Burqua here and a Burqua Burqua Buraua there

Old Sarkozy hassled some women eieio

Lets get back to some real news. I hear Britany and Lindsay are dating.

# 4 Hugh Ripper said, on June 22nd, 2009 at 11:13 pm

I think its time to ban suit wearing Christians. Its time to step up before the lines between state and religion dissolve completely. Time and time again they come to my door with the strategy to convert me to their hideous, violent and hypocritical religion. Seems to me their goal is to first convert Iraq (ha-HA) and then the world.

# 5 sargasso said, on June 22nd, 2009 at 11:51 pm

This, after a state visit to the middle east.

# 6 bobbo, the Chauvinist said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 12:41 am

I basically agree and note FRANCE is showing way more balls than GOUSA EVER WILL!!!!

Trick is “how to play it.” Free the women and the male dominated Muslim states will be fractured—but banning clothes is rather primitive==but so are the Muslims.

Hummph! Why not go to the root core and just outlaw Muslims? After all THATS the real issue.

We interned the Japanese druing WW2 because they were a threat we didn’t want to take the time to figure out. Same with the Arab Muslims. Stick it to em.

Convert or get deported. Go after the Catholics next.

# 7 Cursor_ said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 1:37 am

Wow this is truly stupid. But what can we expect. He is not known for his intellect.

Cursor_

# 8 Ringo said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 2:40 am

Anyone else getting the ad for “The International Muslim Matrimonial Website” on the left sidebar…..

…..or do I need to do another adware scan?

# 9 contempt said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 2:52 am

France is for the French. At least Sarkozy understands that unless the French culture is protected then it will disappear. A good example for all western cultures to follow.

# 10 Fat_Anarchy said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 3:06 am

The most I would say is that it would be acceptable to say someone cannot do a job which requires the face to be unexposed, such as being a teacher, police officer, etc.

I wouldn’t go as far as to say that a particular peice of clothing should be out and out banned. It goes against the fundamental principles of a free society, and sets a very bad precident.

How quick you people are to forsake your principles and values when it becomes inconveinient to hold them. Those are the times that test your values the most, and when you need to remain strong to them.

# 11 Poppa Boner said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 3:21 am

Even for Halloween?

# 12 bobbo, the most Chaste of Values Idolaters said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 3:22 am

#10–Fat Anarchy==so you think values should be held to regardless of consequences–or can you just not think past two weeks?

Why allow people into your society who hold to a religion that says: “When we can, we will force you into our religion or kill you.”

Why do that?

# 13 RTaylor said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 3:22 am

So why are there so many Mosques in Europe? How did the Islamic population grow? Between greed for cheap labor and the sins of 19th century colonialism.

# 14 bobbo, the civil libertarian said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 3:27 am

“This garb seems more of a political statement than a religious one.” /// I wish that were true. Politics will change with the advantages. Not so with religion. Doesn’t matter what the proportion of motivation between politics and religion is either. Religion is unbending and maintains its position under attack as a sign of virtue.

What reasonable law could be passed to allow this dress: “No person shall enter public space wearing face masks, equipment, garb, or hair such that their identity cannot be determined by casual observation. Exception by permit only.”

No more Richard Nixon bank robberies. Problems solved.

# 15 Dallas said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 4:05 am

A brave position from a French liberal leader, Sarkozy.

It’s about time suppression, which always hides behind some religious fanatical reasoning is confronted.

http://nytimes.com/2007/05/07/opinion/07iht-edsarko.1.5596278.html

# 16 Still an adolescent at 50 said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 4:14 am

I like the women to wear the Burqua. When I can see their hair or their legs I get those funny feelings and my religion fades.

# 17 GF said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 4:28 am

I’d consider putting a burqa over yer goats and donkeys too. Filled with animalistic lust that they can’t control muslims have to cover their own sisters with ugly black blankets. I guess their god can’t help them control themselves.

# 18 qb said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 4:35 am

I think we should get fundamentalist Christian preachers to stop wearing toupees.

# 19 bobbo, the close reader said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 4:35 am

#15–Hey Dallas==Sarkozy is not a liberal. Its true that word is in the headline and not explained thereafter, but even just “actually” reading your own link shows anyone with a GED that Sarkozy is right of center.

Maybe you missed all the news when France voted him in to Bushies joy? He thought he was winning the propaganda war.

# 20 orangetiki said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 4:51 am

I am glad soemone is takign a stand . even if it’s a frenchman… lol ok all jokes aside good call

# 21 Sea Lawyer said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 4:55 am

#19, bobbo, in other parts of the world, liberal apparently still means what it has classically always meant, not the American version of the word that now means “I like to give people I feel sorry for free stuff at the expense of those I feel less sorry for.”

So in that regard, if he is against allowing women the liberty to wear burqas, then you are correct, he’s not much of a liberal.

# 22 Benjamin said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 5:23 am

Some women should be wearing burqas. Think Helen Thomas and you will agree.

# 23 Cursor_ said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 5:39 am

French Culture? WTF?

Bloody Gauls and Franks with italian food & wine and a bastardised form of latin.

Just like all nations a hodgepodge of this weeks invaders with last week’s and last year’s invaders.

Hell a quarter of GB is living there. But then 90% of GB is either French or German.

Western Europe is as much of a melting pot as North or South America is.

Cursor_

# 24 Improbus said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 5:49 am

So, what happens when they catch some Muslim woman wearing one? What happens when they catch some Muslim man wearing one?

Are national governments afraid they wont be able to use their surveillance powers successfully? All those cameras but they can’t tell the Muslim women apart. All that expensive surveillance technology defeated by cloth.

# 25 bobbo, not catching red herrings said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 5:52 am

#21–SL==I must be missing your all too clever point because THIS is an American Blog, Dallas is an American, and in America Liberal/Conservative is NOT DEFINED by giving free stuff to people you like BECAUSE both parties do it. Libs provide social benefits to more rather than less people and pay for some of it by raising taxes, while Cons provide limited taxation to fewer rather than more people and pay for some of it on the backs of the working poor while raping our grandkiddies for the balance.

Your word play on liberty would have merit if the chosen example were not so extremely self evident as not applicable. How many real American women have chosen the freedom of the burqua? Huh? How many? Thats right, none. Only the oppressed Arab Muslim women wear the burka===but your are free to post as you wish. Anyone intelligent enough to be able to post doesn’t believe you though, as you don’t yourself.

Sea Lawyer, looking for sea clients.

# 26 Luc said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 5:55 am

France is a very intelligent and mature country.

The burqa is not just a garment, it’s a religious symbol, as forbidden in schools as the Christian cross. Children are allowed to wear neither burqas nor crosses at school, like American children aren’t allowed to wear gang symbols in American schools.

For having no foolish hang-ups about sex and for treating religious gimcrack like gang bling, France has my utmost respect. Vive la France!

# 27 Mr. Fusion said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 6:03 am

<blockquote“The burqa is not a religious sign, it’s a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement — I want to say it solemnly,” he said. “It will not be welcome on the territory of the French Republic.”

Couldn’t have said it better.

Then we can have the nuns lose their medieval habits too. They too do not display contemporary Western Culture. And Priests in dresses with their pointy hats.

# 28 Mr. Fusion said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 6:05 am

Bobbo,

Love the new handles. Well done sir.

# 29 bobbo, maintaining the point said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 6:09 am

#27–Fusion==I’ve been waiting 6 months to correct you. Yes, the Catholics like costumes but costuming is not the issue. Don’t Sisters and Brothers often go out in public in street clothes? Why yes they do. No, the issue here is not costuming or contemporary culture, it is a mandatory 24/7 wrapping of the individual into anonymous soul destroying conformity. I’m sure you can make out the difference from there.

I do admire the balance you attempted after highlighting the deeply profound and anti-American statement Sarkozy made. I’d vote for him too.

# 30 Bob3000 said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 6:20 am

This is ludicrous! It’s not as if my wife can’t go to Saudi Arabia and walk around in her halter and short-shorts!

Oh wait ….

# 31 contempt said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 6:26 am

#23 Cursor_

You may or may not like what remains of the French culture. but in the end it is theirs to defend or let fade into history.

All things considered, I would take the watered-down French culture over the Islamic culture any day of the week.

# 32 Sea Lawyer said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 6:29 am

#25, you see bobbo, it’s not about what a woman living in France chooses to subject herself to because of backwards religious beliefs, it is that a public official from the government is telling her that she cannot. So I’m sorry you don’t understand how liberty and liberalism are related in the classic political context (and not just a play on words), or how New Liberalism is a different thing.

# 33 Mr. Fusion said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 6:51 am

#29, Bobbo,

Don’t Sisters and Brothers often go out in public in street clothes?

Why yes, some do. It has more to do with the Order than with the nun’s choice. Many Orders today, especially those in the public eye, have abandoned the habit, but not all. And unfortunately, I don’t have any numbers on how many do still wear them. Even still, a lot will wear the head dress and more contemporary dresses.

# 34 Patrick said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 7:07 am

I think a better course would be to deport these types if from outside France.

# 35 bobbo, not confused by words said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 7:38 am

#30–Bob3000==what is it about 130 degrees in the shade with no shade makes you think anyone, including a brain washed Saudi Woman would choose to wear black from head to toe?

I guess you are of the lawyering type that thinks slaves in the cotton fields enjoyed what they were doing because the sang and no one ever broke the chains to run away.

Yes, women in halter tops just the same as women in burquas.

Speaking of not seeing the forest for the trees when there aren’t even any trees, Sea Lawyer==you continue to make the same mistake as Bob3000. You see 1-2 similarities and don’t have the attention span to look at the differences==much less to compare the similarities with the differences and make a considered judgment in view of ALL the facts. You’ll never make a Sea Judge. Probably your goal?

What is it about women wearing anything makes you think they chose it? Don’t you have to ask them rather than just blithely assume? No?

Extra points–ask a slave if they are happy and then ask them again.

Heh, heh. If you can’t wear a halter top, how can you “choose” to wear a burgua? Huh? I guess like I chose not to play the piano or be a rocket scientist.

# 36 Sea Lawyer said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 7:46 am

#35, They are in France. Who is forcing them to wear the thing?

# 37 bobbo, laughing at the innocense said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 7:54 am

#36–SL==Think about it and post back if you continue to draw a blank.

Hint—who forces them not to spit?

# 38 Sea Lawyer said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 8:05 am

I don’t know, who forces them to not spit?

# 39 Dallas said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 8:20 am

Credit to Liberal Sarkozy for shaming the religious fanatical Muslim to suppress women.

Intelligent people get it that this is not to make beekeeper masks illegal, but rather shaming the religious, fanatical practice.

The world is full of oppressive acts.
- Female genital mutilation in africa
- Woman’s feet bound in a pointy shape
.. to name a few.

Happy to see leaders take a stand and call out this ridiculous practice to shame the people who propagate this evil.

Don’t count on conservatives to act. The very name “conservative”, implies they are trapped in the past.

# 40 bobbo, always the gentleperson said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 8:33 am

declines the invitation to be so bluntly revelatory as to the question at #38. At #36–part of the answer is the same people who throw acid in the faces of girls trying to get an education. I guess after the acid bath, they freely choose to stay home?

# 41 Greg Allen said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 8:45 am

As some of you may know, I like Muslims and usually defend them.

However, I am not too sympathetic to the pro-burkha and hijab movement.

I will defend any woman who _voluntarily_ choses to wear it.

But the MAIN POINT of the burkha/hijab is to separate women from the public.

So, how can they complain, “Oh, you are excluding me because of my burkha!”

Still, I think as a society we can be tolerant of the burkha/hijab but there are reasonable limits.

BTW, this isn’t just for the burkha. There are other kinds of religious garb that prevent full-participation in society. The totally nude holy men in India come to mind.

# 42 Greg Allen said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 8:53 am

BTW, you can’t parse-out the “political statement” vs. the “religious” motivation for wearing the burkha.

Conservative Islam is political. It’s also religious.

This is true for most conservative wings of religion, right? And the supremacist wing of atheism, for that matter.

# 43 Greg Allen said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 8:56 am

Alfred1,

When the French ban school girls wearing a crosses, are you cool with that, too?

It’s the same thing, for the French.

http://tinyurl.com/6hx67

# 44 Patrick said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 8:58 am

# 42 Greg Allen said, “BTW, you can’t parse-out the “political statement” vs. the “religious” motivation for wearing the burkha.”

Do you know if the koran mentions this garb?

# 45 JimR said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 9:07 am

Wrong way to go for France. Those Muslim women aren’t forced to wear the burqas. It’s their own foolish choice based on their own culture.

If France really wants to change the “habits” (cough) of Muslim women, they are free to step up their concerns about self subservience by educating on the negative social aspects.

How about a public campaign poster showing a Woman in full burqa with the caption “Don’t be a fool”. Just trowing that out there…. legal? Kind of like saying “This is your brain on drugs”

# 46 soundwash said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 9:13 am

Nice to see at least one major country
stand up for it’s culture in the light
of day.

(so i guess this means no Muslim
super stadium for France like the
Brits bent over and built?)

Ours has been so watered down that it
has lost it’s backbone. even our own president takes pot shots at us while
abroad and thinks he needs to perfect
the Constitution. (what’s left of it)

I guess all that’s left to say in this case is, Viva La France!

-s

# 47 Mr. Fusion said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 9:23 am

#35, Bobbo,

I chose not to play the piano or be a rocket scientist.

HEY !!! ME TOO !!!

# 48 Special Ed said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 1:33 pm

Obligatory:
http://tinyurl.com/24uxfm

# 49 meetsy said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 2:19 pm

Good!
Too bad we’re more tolerant of dress. I’d like to see thong underwear (showing), half mast baggy pants, and stomach revealing ANYTHING banned in this country.
Oh, and spandex!

# 50 meetsy said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 2:22 pm

#42
You know, you can be Muslim without wearing the body wrap…just as a Catholic schoolgirl can be Catholic without the jumper.

# 51 ElectricianNik said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 3:00 pm

I don’t think women should be forced to wear these costumes either, but it is ridiculous for the state to outlaw any outfit. Which type of clothes will be next to be looked down upon.

As horrible as it is that some Arabic tradition forces women to wear these costumes. The consequence of banning them is even worse. Now these women will be confined to their house unable to go out in public ever again.

Which option is better?

# 52 Hugh Ripper said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 3:45 pm

I guess Americans don’t believe in freedom of religion any more, huh? Typical pointy headed hypocrisy to whinge and whine about the erosion of rights and Big Government ruining their lives, then support the banning of clothing. Nice work.

# 53 Sea Lawyer said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 4:04 pm

#52, Hugh, guess you haven’t noticed which posters were most vocal in their support. It was mostly the government knows best crowd.

# 54 Jägermeister said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 4:14 pm

#27 – Mr. Fusion – Then we can have the nuns lose their medieval habits too. They too do not display contemporary Western Culture. And Priests in dresses with their pointy hats.

Well said.

# 55 Hugh Ripper said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 4:23 pm

#53 Sea Lawyer

Yes you’re right. There are a few of those as well. Seems that freedom and democracy have take a bit of a hit in this thread.

# 56 Mr. Fusion said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 6:43 pm

#52, Hugh,

This is not about religion. It is about the subjugation and humiliation of women for the sake of power to the men.

“The burqa is not a religious sign, it’s a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement — I want to say it solemnly,” he said. “It will not be welcome on the territory of the French Republic.”

This, to me, sounds more like disapproval of anyone advocating inequality in women. Of course, there are still those who think it was a mistake to give the vote to women.

# 57 faxon said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 7:31 pm

Who are we Westerners to criticize any other culture. This women certainly are not bothering anyone. If their society is based on this clothing, there is nothing westerners should have to say about it. They have been here longer than us.

# 58 faxon said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 7:36 pm

#54 Priests should wear whatever they like. So should you. We all should be able to wear whatever we want. The world is a richly diverse, wonderful place, with plenty of different opinions and ways of doing things. It is truly the variations that make the world so delightful. And if these women need a helping hand, they have loving husbands and fathers to guide them.

# 59 Hugh Ripper said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 8:09 pm

#56 Fusion

Many Moslem women don’t see it that way. Many have the choise of wearing it or not.

I also cant believe that Sarkozy, a known womaniser, believe all this guff about it being a women rights issue. This is populist Moslem bashing, pure and simple. He’s sure to get a good nationalist reaction.

I don’t agree with the Muslim world view of things but I do believe in the right to worship whatever, whenever, as long as you do no harm.

# 60 deowll said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 8:21 pm

It is in the Koran. Besides they kill their women if they don’t wear them.

# 61 zorkor said, on June 23rd, 2009 at 8:49 pm

I have to agree with Sarkozy there. Even though I am a Muslim but i dont think Burqas are necessary anymore considering you can get along easily now a days. Of course u need Burqas in a muslim countries like Saudi Arabia but when youre living in France, or any other western country, then you dont need it. I always say, when living in rome, do as the romans do.

# 62 Mr. Fusion said, on June 24th, 2009 at 2:02 am

#59, Hugh,

Many have the choise of wearing it or not.

Those Muslims who do not wear one do so because of that choice.

The whole rational behind the burka and hajib is not to protect the woman, but so a man will not be tempted by a woman’s beauty. Those that do wear one do so because of the pressure from the men in her life – fathers, husbands, and local temple traditions.

Sarkozy’s history does not mean he can not also have a valid opinion on this subject. I do agree with that many of the posts above are purely intent upon bashing Muslims for the sake of bashing Muslims. Here though, Sarkosy explained himself and his rational quite well.

# 63 Mr. Fusion said, on June 24th, 2009 at 2:04 am

Oopps, in my #62 I called them temples. Wrong. They are called Mosques. Whatever the eff the difference is is beyond me, but hey, …

# 64 qb said, on June 24th, 2009 at 4:38 am

I guess a lot of nuns wouldn’t be welcome as well.

# 65 Mr. Fusion said, on June 24th, 2009 at 6:35 am

#64, qb,

Only those with “bad habits”. The “good habits” would be welcome.

# 66 jbellies said, on June 24th, 2009 at 8:54 am

Turkey is 98% Muslim, yet Kemal Ataturk, “father of Turkey” banned traditional Muslim garb. Not just the burqa. Men were executed (true, some 80 years ago) for refusing to stop wearing the fez. It was unfortunate for the individuals, but the results have been generally positive. Wake up and smell the 20th ^H^H^H^H 21st century.

Perhaps Sarkozy is foreseeing a time when voluminous clothing will be banned everywhere because of suicide bombers.

# 67 Patrick said, on June 24th, 2009 at 9:32 am

# 60 deowll said, “It is in the Koran.”

I’ve searched a couple of English versions and couldn’t find it. Where did you read that?

# 68 Hugh Ripper said, on June 24th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

#62 Fusion

Sorry. Not a good enough reason to ban something. Advertising billboards are often a symbols of women’s oppression (not to mention oppression in general), but you wont see them being banned.

Also, does this mean I cant wear my ninja suit in France?

# 69 Uncle Patso said, on June 24th, 2009 at 8:53 pm

# 25 bobbo, not catching red herrings said, in part:

“Only the oppressed Arab Muslim women wear the burka…”

Several evangelical Christian sects dress their women in clothes that stand out somewhat in modern society. And of course there are the Amish. But at least those clothes only go back to the 1800s — burqas are from, what, the 700s?

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa

“Many Muslims believe that the Islamic holy book, the Qur’an, and the collected traditions of the life of Muhammed, or hadith, require both men and women to dress and behave modestly in public. However, this requirement, called hijab, has been interpreted in many different ways by Islamic scholars (ulema) and Muslim communities (see Women and Islam); the burqa is not specifically mentioned in the Quran.”

# 70 Mr. Fusion said, on June 25th, 2009 at 6:07 am

#68, Hugh,

billboards are often a symbols of women’s oppression

ooooo, now that is an excellent point.

My weak argument (I hope it hold some validity) in response is, there is a difference between objectifying women for their femininity and subjugating and oppressing them because of they are women.

I know I got tired of being held up as a sex symbol when I was younger, but I was never forced to physically suffer. I could mingle in society, talk with anyone willing to talk with me, and be regarded as an equal.

But damn, that is a good point.

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