I remember hearing that the other Muslim countries around the Middle East did not want to take them in. Also, that the Palestinians keep themselves in their camps as propaganda against Israel. And so on. Many rumors and stories and whatnot. Some true, some Israeli propaganda in there for sure. There are also many stories in the main stream media about the abuse and deaths the Israelis heap upon them. The Israeli lobby in the US probably outstrips the tobacco, gun, and a few others combined. Hard to know what’s real and not. So, what about this chart? Does it say anything useful these days?

Photo found on Reddit

  1. kjb434 says:

    What is doesn’t show is the many Palestinians that live in the Israel portion that go to work every day and have no issue with it. They are very well integrated into Israel and aren’t living as refugees.

    People can live with other people. The fault of this mess comes from two sides that will always hold their ground. You can argue which side is defending itself and which side is on the offensive.

    From my view, I have a problem with the volumes of recorded statements on the Palestinian side regarding Israel cannot exist. Then you see Israeli leaders and Palestinian leaders in a summit talking.

    I accept that there will never be a solution in this area and there will always be tension. It’s been this way since the BC’s and will always be there.

  2. dusanmal says:

    Combined with a missing pieces of information, yes I speaks volumes.
    Missing pieces:
    1) Who attacked whom to start this erosion. Who in that attack professed defense of their own people and who called for genocide of others? Palestinians and Arabs attacked newly formed Israel professing want to do genocide on them.
    2) Who repeatedly refused peace for land deals over decades? Palestinians, wanting everything and still professing want for genocide of Jews – officially.
    3) Was that by some miracle Palestinians and only Palestinians lived in initially marked map of 1946? No, Jewish population on the same territory is persistent over millennia, large and at least equal in numbers to Arab Palestinians in 1946. How come that this somehow is all Palestinian territory (nothing to do with Jews or Arabs – that was simply territory of British colony, not strictly speaking belonging to either group).
    So, under these explanations maps shown demonstrate how official hate and intolerance yields self damage. Of Palestinians by Palestinians.

    • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

      Hey Dus==excellent post. Was it haste or passion that your normally impeccable English as a second language is revealed just a tiny bit?


      Its kinda like a dictionary. Found in books, and all you gotta do is read.

    • Sea Lawyer says:

      The Jewish population in 1850 was around 4% and increased during the Zionist movement calling for Jews to immigrate back into Israel and establish a Jewish state. They were still a minority in the region as late as the 1940s until significant numbers of Palestinians were evicted (for lack of a better word) from the region.

  3. jonorose says:

    Its a load of crap!
    There was never a country called “Palestine” in 1946 for starters. The territory was under British control. Before that it was Turkish for hundreds of years.
    Then the UN partition plan of 1947 (the second map) was accepted by Israel and rejected by the Arabs.
    The green areas marked as “Palestine” between 1949 and 1967 were under Egyptian (Gaza) and Jordanian (West Bank) control – so why wasn’t a Palestinian State created then?
    And the areas in the final map are the result of the Oslo Peace Accords and were only meant to be temporary while the final agreement and borders were worked out.
    On 2 occasions – 2000 (PM Barak) at Wye River, and again in 2008 (PM Olmert) the Palestinians were offered 95% plus of the territories of the 1949 – 67 map, and the Palestinians rejected it.
    This is all verifiable with some basic research.

  4. bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

    Gee – if you can’t tell obvious lies, propaganda, and talking points from the probable facts of a situation….. then ….. you are a sheeple. More likely: a fumbled attempt at being neutral?

    But to the map. It looks just like the map of the growth of the USA to me. Or the growth of Germany, or France, or China, or Russian, or….more overlappingly of the Turkish empire, Persian Empire, the Ottoman Empire, etc.

    Will there always be turmoil? Yes–just as there always is. Look at the USSR break up: when the powers that be decide not to fight/kill/inslave/oppress people to maintain their countries borders, the borders change to the interests of those who are so willing.

    NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO ANY LAND ANYWHERE AT ANYTIME. Land is held only by those willing to fight and kill for it. This rule is more and less obvious over time and place. Its true in the USA, the UK (notice the “U” right in the names?===thats HISTORY!!) right down to an apartment complex in Monaco who doesn’t like the noise from the casino.

    Monkeys with brains are like this.

    Extra Points: the fighting will continue until the Arabs wanting the overthrow of Israel who live in quarantined portions of Israel Greater are killed off. Probably take another War or Two. Thats one of the problems of a State like Israel founded on a religious idea—they don’t have the balls or self interest to annihilate their enemies. So, they suffer the consequences. Pros and Cons to every outcome even including a final solution.

  5. moss says:

    The guard shack for the Oil Patch Boys just keeps on getting bigger and bigger.

  6. Dallas says:

    The UN plan is acceptable and agreed to so 1948 picture is meaningless .

    The rest of the territory taken is also acceptable because it sucks when you start a war and lose.

    • Dallas says:

      make that the 1946 picture that is meaningless.

    • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

      “it sucks when you start a war and lose.” //// I don’t know why that is not given more import. The fact that remnant groups of arabs still exist within Israel is a testament to Israel’s misplaced humanity and a warning to all other nations in their formation. You either finish the job, or the job isn’t finished.

      • Dallas says:

        Agreed. Israel held back (didn’t finish job) because of American and international pressure. ex. could have wiped out the Egyptian army in the Sinai but didn’t – compassion or pressure?

        Water under the bridge but sadly, that unsettled business is an open keg of dynamite. Now Iran is in the mix.

        I’m on the side of giving things time to heal. The upside is war is averted and changes in government and sentiment happen.

        Pres Obama knows this.

        Willard is determined to turn the shit over there. What happens when you turn the shit? It stinks pretty bad.

        The Teapublican sheeple need to realize that Willard is a businessman, not a statesman.

      • What? says:

        No, the non jews do all the dirty work.

        Like Mexicans in the US, and Turks in Germany, the wealthy privileged classes don’t do the work.

        If Israel didn’t have dirty Arabs, they couldn’t exist.

    • LibertyLover says:

      The rest of the territory taken is also acceptable because it sucks when you start a war and lose.


      Look at America. I wonder if there is a map showing the Amerind territories from 1500 AD compared to today.

      • Dallas says:

        Yes! We’ve agreed already in 2012 and we have four more months to go!!!!

        • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

          I’m not aware of any pending “Amerind” dispute or resolution of it.

          Still–a very dramatic example of what happens when “you don’t finish the job.” What you get is generations of conflict thereafter.

          “America” defined as ALL the people within it regardless of roots/history would be better off if all native peoples were killed or assimulated. No reservations, no homelands, no historical rights to whatever, no exceptions for casinos and all the claptrap that brings up.

          Why?====because we are all the same. All differences mandated by law are suspect. Settlements and truces of war are because natural borderlines have been reached or both sides are tired of the conflict and want a rest. Settlements and truces are only just that—rest spots in history towards the final solution.

          It sucks, but what in history doesn’t?

          Monkeys with brains.

  7. bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

    In addition to book History, maps are fun too, especially today when they can move and ocsillate about. I saw an excellent one but can’t find the bookmark for it now showing the growth of the Middle East from the beginning of time. It played too fast but was still fun to watch. Like plate tectonics for anyone thinking they have a “homeland.”

    But here is one on topic but not sliced fine enough for the discussion. If anyone else finds better, please post it? I didn’t know before that Turkey gained its Mediterranean dick so recently. I wonder why that was?


    • kjb434 says:

      Try this one. It’s for Europe, but the activity around Israel is also shown. Also, if you click on interactive maps at the top, they have one for Iraq also that details a lot of movement in Israel.



      • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

        Remove the www. after you copy and paste for this forum and you will have it. http://worldology.com/Europe/europe_history_lg.htm

        YES. Much better map explaining the History a bit more as well. From 1918 to 1919 is the telling mark I think for all those babbling about homeland.

        The breakup of the Ottoman Empire is not well shown. They were “punished” for giving aid to Nazi Germany. The “Hate the Jews” masquerading as anything else has a rich history.

        Blood and Oil. Throw in some sand, and you got the Middle East. Once the oil is pumped out, no one will care.

        “All this fighting for homeland and religion and it was all about oil? Yes, Jr.”

        • kjb434 says:

          What I love about that map/history site is that when History is told through maps, it’s hard to throw bias into the events. Maps express the events as they happened.

          More of these should be created through out the world.

          I think the better generalization is that many wars are over commerce….whether it is the control of a resource like oil and gas or spice trades prior to that. Wars will always be fought over access to things we consider valuable and there will always be a contingent that will hide this fact.

          The Mideast is at the cross roads of so many things that are considered valuable. Throw in 3 religions and you have the recipe for everything we have seen and will continue to see.

          Reagan had Afghanistan, Bush 1 had Irag/Kuwait, Clinton had Yugoslavia, Bush 2 had Iraq/Afghanistan, Obama has Syria. All of it is tied to access to resources and the great game of world chess.

          Russian and China are going to play great foils to the elitist plans of the U.S. and Europe moving forward. I see Russia and China as the players to keep the west in check. And Russia and China don’t mind flexing their muscle.

          There are going to be some interesting maps in the future…

          • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

            kayjay innocently insists: “What I love about that map/history site is that when History is told through maps, it’s hard to throw bias into the events.” /// Ever seen the world map as told by China? Siam? Japan? Spain? The Vatican?

            Unbiased: not what the indians thought when seeing their homeland labeled “Unoccupied.”

            bias – its everywhere.

          • kjb434 says:

            What I meant by biased is that either the actions that took territory in war or treaties either happened or didn’t. You can disagree with the actions and the process, but there is a reality there of who was in control of what land.

            Many Mexicans still claim parts of the southwest is theirs, but there is this funny thing called a Treaty that the leaders of Mexico signed handing the land over. Sure, they scan still print maps showing it is still Mexico (some do), but there is a reality there that it isn’t part of Mexico.

            The battles between China, Japan, etc have outcomes and views tied to them, but in the end there were areas that were controlled by different groups at different times. Those don’t change from a personal viewpoint. It either is or it isn’t.

            Hell, there is still some debate on the exact course the border takes between the U.S. and Canada by New York and there even was a battle over it in the early days of Canada and U.S. relations.

          • What? says:

            So what is the justification for Israel, if the Indians gave up their land just like the Jews did?

          • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

            What–I think you have it backwards. The arabs gave up their land like the indians did==by force.

            Just like it always happens. Justification can be layered on as desired.

        • Mr Windows says:

          Wrong. The Ottoman Empire was abolished in 1922, after having helped the Kaiser, not the Nazi’s. Britain and France were given League of nations mandates over the former Ottoman regions of Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Mesopotamia, etc. Turkey did aid the Nazi’s, but they had already lost their territories.

  8. orchidcup says:

    Eric M. Meyers, a Duke University historian of religion, writes:

    “What is the significance of the Palestinians really being descended from the Canaanites? In the early and more conservative reconstruction of history, it might be said that this merely confirms the historic enmity between Israel and its enemies. However, some scholars believe that Israel actually emerged from within the Canaanite community itself (Northwest Semites) and allied itself with Canaanite elements against the city-states and elites of Canaan. Once they were disenfranchised by these city-states and elites, the Israelites and some disenfranchised Canaanites joined together to challenge the hegemony of the heads of the city-states and forged a new identity in the hill country based on egalitarian principles and a common threat from without. This is another irony in modern politics: the Palestinians in truth are blood brothers or cousins of the modern Israelis.”

  9. NobodySpecial says:

    What’s the problem?
    Surely they can just open Casinos

  10. NewformatSux says:

    Egypt and Jordan both seized land from the “Palestinians”, who are really the same as Jordanians.

    If Palestine ever gained back land in East Jerusalem, the Arabs there will move to other, Israeli, parts.

    And of course, Palestine historically refers to Israel, and Palestinians refers to Jews.

    The Koran says Israel belongs to the Jews. Modern Muslim and other Leftist haters get around this when they acknowledge it by claiming that the Jews in Israel are fake Jews.

    • Mr Windows says:

      “O my people! Enter the holy land which Allah hath assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.”

  11. orchidcup says:

    Due to its immigrant nature, Israel is one of the most multicultural and multilingual societies in the world. Hebrew and Arabic are the official languages in the country, while English and Russian are the two most widely spoken non official languages. Georgian, Yiddish, Romanian, Ukrainian, Amharic, Armenian, Bulgarian, Ladino, French, Persian, Hungarian, Spanish, German, Vietnamese, Thai, Tagalog and Polish are the most commonly used foreign languages. A certain degree of English is spoken widely, and is the language of choice for many Israeli businesses. Courses of Hebrew and English language are mandatory in the Israeli school system, and most schools offer either Arabic, Spanish, German or French.

    • What? says:

      That’s like saying you’re good to go in the US as long as your Christian, doesn’t matter which country you came from, as long as you’re a Protestant, doesn’t matter what color your skin is as long as you’re a straight, heterosexual, attractive God fearing bible thumping Southern Baptist Evangelical, and mostly white.

  12. NewformatSux says:

    Last time I saw that chart, it was accompanied by a poem praising the suicide bomber.

  13. msbpodcast says:

    Put delayed action switches on some of our old nuclear bombs and put the bombs in concrete towers in the oppositions real-estate giving them each mutually assured destruction (MAD) and they’ll stop all of this bickering.

    There’s nothing that clears the mind like knowing that the other guy can blow your ass away if you get too much out of line.

    While religion usually mandates killing the other guy, it rarely wants you to kill your side too.

    • orchidcup says:

      Kill everybody and let God sort them out.

      There is merit to that idea.

    • NewformatSux says:

      Except it is not mutually assured destruction. Rafsanjani in Iran has said that an Israeli counterattack would only take out part of the Muslim world, while Israel would be destroyed. The Palestinians do not consider themselves a separate race, despite what they tell the media. Hamas has no problem destroying both sides. It’s leaders will be with their benefactors in Iran.

  14. bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

    Trying to read up on what the UN position is I came across these interesting videos. Videos–for them that don’t like books.

    Short news report on the placing of the Ad at a train station:

    Clever 13 min video on the history of the conflict. I didn’t know there had been so many offers of a two state solution. “If we agree to peace, how can we make war?” Ha, ha:


  15. Mixelplix says:

    it’s really quite simple – the solution to the Israel/Palestinian conflict is to move _everyone_ out. NO ONE gets to live there. Turn it into a theme park and everyone can pay to visit their precious Judeo-Christian mythology crazy place. Think of it as sand covered Disneyland – for religious idiots.

    There once were two cats of Kilkenny
    Each thought there was one cat too many
    So they fought and they fit
    And they scratched and they bit
    ‘Til (excepting their nails
    And the tips of their tails)
    Instead of two cats there weren’t any!

    • What? says:

      I agree completely with this idea.

      It should be an “International Religious State, Open to All, for which No One can Own.”

  16. Yankinwaoz says:

    Solving the Palestinian statehood problem is the very last thing that the middle east wants. That is why it has been going on, and on, and on for almost 60 years now.

    Most of the nations in the Arab world and the Middle east are corrupt kleptocracies. They are run by, and for the benefit, of a very small elite. The Palestinian problem is a perfect distraction for their citizens. While their common people people obsess over Palestine, their rulers continue to deny them freedom, education, jobs, opportunities, and hope. They loot the resources and national treasuries.

    When their citizens ask questions, the claim they are defending the Palestinians against the evil Jews. That is their justification for their monopoly on power.

    Actually solving the “crises” is the very last thing they want. That is why they refuse to let Palestinians become citizens. That is why demand they stay in refugee camps. That is why don’t really fight Israel to win.

    It is pathetic. The Palestinians are being used by everyone, especially their “brother” Arabs, and they are so blinded by anger that they can’t see it.

    Arafat was the master at this game. He knew where the money was, and he played it to the hilt. He got all the unwashed masses in the Middle East to believe he was their true defender. All the while he was cashing those fat checks from his sponsors, the elite that run the states in the Middle East. He didn’t give a shit about any of them. He sold them out to be political pawns in a rich man’s game of power.

    And Israel is just as much to blame too. And they too have milked this conflict for decades to keep that fat pipeline of money from the US flowing. They know if peace breaks out, the US will ignore them and stop paying for all their military.

    This won’t end until the citizens of Palestine realize they are being used, the citizens of other ME states realize they are being lied to, and the citizens of the US realize that Israel can and does make mistakes.

  17. Kent says:

    I trust nothing that comes from an Israel supporter, they’re all propagandists of the worst sort.

  18. gold account says:

    This is a very powerful documentary about the United States’ development and use of nuclear weapons of mass destruction. It focuses on the obvious propaganda campaign by the US Government to convince Americans that nuclear war was survivable, and the use of nuclear weapons against other nations was therefore acceptable policy. Produced at a time when most Americans were still very naive about the extent of US Government propaganda, this documentary was actually banned inside the United States until the sheer volume of bootleg copies made the ban pointless, and a political embarrassment. If you have not seen it, this is a must watch. If you have NetFlix, it is also available there.

  19. Ephraim says:

    Funny how things can be selective. And of course choosing times is also selective, especially since these were mandates and provinces, not countries. But if my memory serves, Palestine seems to be missing all the land to the east of the Jordan river that was part of the original Palestine…. separated by the British and renamed Trans-Jordan. Then after the annexation of the West Bank by Trans-Jordan renamed Jordan. Of course, then you have to deal with the question of is Jordan a Palestinian territory…. (my head hurts!)

    See discussions like http://www.danielpipes.org/298/is-jordan-palestine

    • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

      How does what you post change “anything” about the real politik issues at hand? A minority culture within a larger culture unwilling to accept anything except the overthrow of the majority culture?

      You can pick ANY historical reference you want and they are all IRRELEVANT. What counts is NOW and the future.

      If you don’t kill someone who wants you dead, eventually, you will be killed. A reality, no matter who is talking.

      Same as it ever was.

      • Ephraim says:

        Because if you show Palestine from the date of the Ottoman empire, it’s much larger and would be mostly green, since Jordan is part of British Palestinian mandate.

  20. Glenn E. says:

    According to Wikipedia, there’s only 572 million more Jews living in Israel (estimated), than in the US as if 2010.

    But both are in the top two, with 5.3 billion plus. After that, France was only 483 million. And most of those Israeli Jews weren’t born there. So where do you suppose most of them came from? That’s why the US has the largest Pro-Israel lobby.

    • Ephraim says:

      About 70% of the population is native born, meaning that they were born and raised in Israel. If I remember correctly the first Prime Minister who was native was Yigal Alon, born in the time of the Ottoman Empire occupation. Yitzchak Rabin was born in the time of the British occupation. The first born in “Israel” after 1948 was Netanyahu.

      And that is millions, not billions.

  21. bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

    Glenn–you are only off by a factor of 1000.

    eg==total population of USA is 320MM

    Ephraim–I don’t know what point you are trying to make. But as a general point from me: those who get overly wrapped up in the history of anything are generally irrelevant/or part of the problem as the history can’t be changed so the position that flows from it is “right” and also can’t be changed. As stated though–while history does have an important role, its not as important as NOW and the future. What do we do starting now? All historical claims on land by anyone anywhere at anytime is complete BS.

    Land is always held by might, not right.

  22. Not bad, I agree with Bobbo.


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