Bring them all back home!

Romney: “Our Navy is smaller now than at any time since 1917. The Navy said they needed 313 ships to carry out their mission. We’re now at under 285…We’re headed down to the low 200s if we go through a sequestration. That’s unacceptable to me.”

Obama: “You mentioned the Navy, for example, and that we have fewer ships than we did in 1916. Well, Governor, we also have fewer horses and bayonets, because the nature of our military’s changed. We have these things called aircraft carriers, where planes land on them. We have these ships that go underwater, nuclear submarines.”

My two-line comment on American foreign policy? Close down all our foreign bases and bring our troops home! Putting them to work on rebuilding our tawdry infrastructure requires half the budget dollars of supporting them abroad.

  1. Glenn E. says:

    Since when does each branch of the US military have to be so well equipped to wage and win a war, all on its own? Because that’s what I get from Romney’s rant. Each branch was to be that strong. To fight another WW2, separately. Or at least one of the world’s two hemispheres, while another branch battles the other. Thank god no space aliens have shown up. Or we’d be planning to finance a defense of the Solar System. Just in case our green skinned friend become hostile. That’s seems to be the US military’s way of thinking. Every nation, every continent, is a potential future enemy. So we better not get caught short of fire power to fry them off the globe. How insanely paranoid is that?!

    And why should the taxpayers by footing the bill for every wet dream some theoretical think tank comes up with, for worse case defense planning? If that’s all it were, perhaps it would be forgivable. But certainly quite a lot of profiteering is involved, in justifying all this readiness. Fortunes and careers are at stake. And experts who explain why we need it all, are the direct recipients of its high dollar fallout. But “Conflict of Interest” never gets mention, where military budgets are involved. Just “Conflicts”, period.

  2. Glenn E. says:

    Here’s a little story that probably never got any big media attention. Most likely because it calls into question the US’s priorities of Education vs Defense spending. Check out the “pie chart” outside, and the “bar chart” inside, the vehicle.

    • MikeN says:

      He has the budget numbers wrong. Where is Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, interest on national debt, etc?

      • GregAllen says:

        Social Security has not contributed one single dime to the national debt.

    • 8wheeler says:

      But finally roll-over accidents won’t stop you.

    • Mextli says:

      Education needs more money like I need to get older. The only place it goes is to the unions.

      • Skeptic says:

        Yes. 100% of the money allotted for education goes to the unions. Not to eminent domain lawsuits to rob citizens of their homes to build new “state-of-the-art” schools that fall apart in 20 years. They don’t go to the teachers who make on average $20,000 less per year than the average worker. They certainly don’t go towards providing notebooks, pencils, pens and food to the children the parents should be responsible for. Yep all that money goes to the unions. I hope you pay for private education because no one is spending money on your kid unless you do apparently.

        • MikeN says:

          Teachers are overpaid.

          • GregAllen says:

            Conservatives think teachers are overpaid but Mitt Romney deserves every penny he “earned” by stealing pensions and sending American jobs overseas.

            Says a lot about the GOP.

          • msbpodcast says:

            Mao Ze Dong agreed with you, so he started a litteral shooting war on teachers and soit-disant intellectuals.

            If you’re a teacher, you have a target on your back.

            For decades the Chinese people only had one little red book to read.

            Yeah, China was so advanced under Mao…

  3. bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

    I’ve heard that Rmoney’s position was based on the recommendation of one of the high ranking Navy Admirables. Do we need a more powerful Navy that the next 10 nations combined, if not the entire rest of the world combined given the issue here is Navy and not Military in general? Whether the military/Navy agrees or not, its good to get some non-1918 Special Interest leadership OVER our military.

    Alfie’s deep insight notwithstanding, I assume we do use almost no horses and very much fewer bayonets than 100 years ago. And indeed–maybe for certain intervention issues, we should return to such indigenous resources?

    The key issue for Rmoney though is increased spending on the military while he wants to cut taxes. Can’t square that lying piece of crap with the notion that our Military Effectiveness in the World rests on a strong economy.

    ITS EMBARASSING my once great country could field an idiot like Rmoney and he is as close as he is in the polls. He should be more like the libertarians or greens==more like 10%.

    Rmoney’s Positions are exactly how a great country fails.

    “Back to the policies that brought us to where we were 4 years ago.” //// I only wish Obama would believe his own positions with a bit more fervor. He’s right on the policies. Now he needs to fight for them.

  4. MikeN says:

    Other than his soft close, Romney could have said Ambassador Stevens would have loved to have a horse and a bayonet.

    • MikeN says:

      Or a detachment of Marines with them. Base 480 miles away in Sicily, and the Administration did nothing over many hours as events were unfolding.

    • Captain Obvious says:

      Obviously the panic is back.

  5. MikeN says:

    Joe Biden had the exchange of the night:
    ‘No serious dates until you’re 30.’

  6. spreeuw says:


    John C Dvorak’s pet peeve of the say

  7. Captain Obvious says:

    Obviously the question is “Does America have more dancing horses than in 1917?”

  8. Sea Lawyer says:

    Funny how the Marine Corps recently fielded brand new bayonets across the service to replace the previous model.

    • MikeN says:

      Four years ago it was tire gages, now it’s bayonets. Obama just isn’t very bright. And for a guy who put so many nautical phrases in his autobiography, he just isn’t very fluent on the subject last night. ‘Boats that go under the water, ah — nuclear submarines.

      • GregAllen says:

        You, clearly, are not very bright about the Navy.

        Obama was 100% correct about the Navy. We don’t need more battleships. That isn’t what the modern navy does.

        It reminds me of the old rule: never let conservatives fight your wars. They will always fight the last one, not the current one.

        • MikeN says:

          Maybe he’s 100% correct, but his manner of saying it created a funny exchange headline, but cost him points on rudeness.

  9. McCullough says:

    What do you expect from a couple of chickenhawks anyway?

    • GregAllen says:

      Obama has been kicking al Qaeda’s ass.

      • msbpodcast says:

        Kicking or licking?

        Al Queda is far too useful for the American domestic strategy to ever win against them. (They didn’t even kill Bin Laden until Obama got it in his head that it would look good on his résumé.)

        The strategy for victory against Al Queda is the same as the French realized that they would have to use in Algeria.

        The French realized that they weren’t that big a bunch of bastards, and the Algerian rebels won, but is was actually cheaper to have the Algerians take care (as in torture, maim and kill,) their own, so the French won too.

      • McCullough says:

        He meant funding. Hey dimwit, who’s in charge of Libya?

    • shooff says:

      Utah Romney’s real home, before his polygamous in bred parents fled to Mexico has the lowest enlistment rate in the Union.

      The LDS church moved the mission age to 18 from 19. If there was a draft, Romney’s minions would pussy out for church.

      Wake up Mormons don’t enlist, they convert the poor to 10%.

      Sure some LDS serve, but they do it for $$$ not country.

  10. MikeN says:

    Are liberals going to blame Bob Schieffer for their election loss? At one point he said Obama Bin Laden.

    • GregAllen says:

      1) Obama won the debate.
      2) We liberals man-up when our guy loses.

      • MikeN says:

        If Obama won the debate, why isn’t his team focusing on it? Why the need to roll out his second term agenda? Shouldn’t they do that next week to lock up the election?

  11. MikeN says:

    Who am I kidding. Bayonets and horses! Romney is playing Battleship, not as good a movie as GIJoe. Go to Intrade and get your 75% return on Obama!

  12. GregAllen says:

    The number of ships in the navy has been declining for years. Yet, the navy has been more important and more effective than ever.

    We don’t fight wars battleship to battleship anymore! Just like we don’t fight bayonet to bayonet any more.

    Ships are now platforms for weapons, teams and technology.

    Romney doesn’t get this.
    Ryan doesn’t get this.

    Obama gets this.

    • msbpodcast says:

      Ships are now platforms for weapons, teams and technology.


      Their position around the globe is comparatively slow and quite deliberate, but the air force and the marines are available for rapid power projection.

      Plus there are still plenty of boomers out there, lurking beneath the surface of 70% of the planet, unseen, lethal, capable of unleashing nuclear devastation anywhere on the planet. (Everybody forgets about the boomers.)

  13. Lucky Pierre says:

    On the political debates: Mark Twain said it right:
    “Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.”

    “It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.”

    “A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes”

  14. So what says:

    The real question of the night was why is Mitt sweating so much?

    • MikeN says:

      He’s not used to having to pretend to be normal. Against free trade, against illegal immigration, for smaller government, against abortion, etc.

  15. deowll says:

    An aircraft carrier is an airport that is mobile. Unless they are part of a well designed task force they are real easy to damage or sink and they need to be resupplied nor do they transport troops anywhere. Obama’s Sec. of Defense says what Obama is doing is going to leave us with an inadequate force do what is expected of them. In fact we already have fewer ships than we need according to him.

    I know Obama said that something he asked for, sequestration, and signed into law isn’t going to happen but he also said he isn’t going to compromise as in it’s my way or the highway. Unless he’s planning on ruling by Imperial decree something is going to have to give.

    I’d love to get out of the EU and the middle east but if we turn that gulf over to the Iranians the price of fuel may leave us riding mopeds and getting around mainly on peddle power.

  16. Pilgrim says:

    Eideard, You should run, That was the best statement of the whole election.
    “Close down all our foreign bases and bring our troops home! Putting them to work on rebuilding our tawdry infrastructure requires half the budget dollars of supporting them abroad.”
    You got my vote.

  17. Tommy says:

    Sorry but Obama has already lost this election. His record is so dismal anyone with a brain will vote against him. That leaves the brainless and those on the dole, a formidable number for sure.

    I’m also sure the angry left will riot and act liked spoiled children, and probably murder some innocents when their freebies are removed from them…too bad.

  18. MikeN says:

    The real funniest exchange will be if Donald Trump reveals details of Obama’s marriage, something from divorce papers.
    Normally, I would say this is horrible, but Obama got elected to the Senate by unsealing his opponents’ divorce records.

  19. john says:

    The real problem is carrying all the expense of a huge military. Granted we need to be able to defend ourselves. But to be honest much of our defense cost have been with fighting two wars for a decade. We have the power in our military to have ended these wars way sooner. The problem is that its the politics that limit a wars actions is what delays the end of a war. For example why will we allow Iran to continue to advance their nuclear program when we could have stopped it much earlier. But we could eventually spend years fighting Iran and trying to stop them from launching a attack on the US or Israel. More crisis management of government. This is not just about Romney or Obama. Its about ineffective government that waits for problems to get bigger before acting. In order to be politically correct.

    • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

      “In order to be politically correct.” /// In order for a political consensus to form to support the action.

    • McCullough says:

      All of the intelligence agencies including Israel’s have agreed that Iran does not have a nuclear weapons program.

      So why do idiots constantly fall for the lies told by O’bush and Rmoney? Did you not learn anything from Iraq and their phantom WMD’s?

      The politicians say “be afraid” and the fools fall for it time after time.

      • MikeN says:

        That’s not what that article says, just that they won’t have one right away.

      • MikeN says:

        ‘That led to a bombshell conclusion in a controversial 2007 National Intelligence Estimate: American spy agencies had “high confidence” that Iran halted its nuclear weapons program in the fall of 2003.’

        I wonder what made them suspend their nuclear weapons program at that time? And halting it means that they had one that could be halted.
        So Iran had such a desire, suspended it for a time, and is now enriching to the point where they could ramp up when they needed to. Why do idiots constantly fall for the lies spread by Iran?

      • MikeN says:

        Some more quotes from your devastating revelation article:

        There is little argument, however, that Iran’s leaders have taken steps that would give them the option of becoming a nuclear-armed power.

        Iran has enriched uranium, although not yet of sufficient quantity or purity to fuel a bomb, and has built secret enrichment sites, which were acknowledged only when unmasked.

        Iran has, in years past, worked on designing a nuclear warhead, the complicated package of electronics and explosives that would transform highly enriched uranium into a fission bomb.

        And it is developing missiles that could in theory launch such a weapon at a target in enemy territory.

      • MikeN says:

        250 kg needed for a nuke, Iran has 110, at 70% of the needed enrichment level. Nothing to see here, folks, no nuclear weapons program.

      • MikeN says:

        Oh man, you got me. I didn’t realize you were being sarcastic. Brilliant!

        • McCullough says:

          Years away, and easily detectable, so are you another idiot that fell for Iraq WMD’s as well? Israel has hundreds, Korea, Pakistan etc. Iran has ZERO…thats 0 followed by zeros. And we need to attack NOW! Gimme a break.

          Here’s the deal, put on a uniform tough guy, put your kid in it, put your wife in it, do your part or shut the fuck up. I have no patience for chickenhawks.

      • jpfitz says:

        Kofi Annan’s resignation as the U.N. and Arab League joint special envoy to Syria should
        clue anyone looking into the mess in the MENA region, Annan had it with the bullshit that’s really happening.

        Iran is\has been our boogeyman for some time now. Anyone remember the big bad Saddam? He’d leave a mushroom cloud as the smoking gun proof of a WMD.

        Wake the fuck up people.

        Wikipedia Kofi Annan-
        “During the build-up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, Annan called on the United States and the United Kingdom not to invade without the support of the United Nations. In a September 2004 interview on the BBC, when questioned about the legal authority for the invasion, Annan said he believed it was not in conformity with the UN charter and was illegal.”

  20. Evolouie says:

    Look as for our military: We spend more on our military than the next 26 countries combined, and all but one of those are our allies. And as for Iran and Israel, Just put a statement to the world that if Iran nukes Israel we will glass the sand they cherish. Not that I am for supporting Israel at all cost, I am not. But the crazy christers in this country are so there you have it.

    • MikeN says:

      Iran’s leaders have said they are willing to make that trade. Israel would be destroyed, and a counterattack would only take out part of the Muslim world.

      • shooff says:

        What’s your point. They all get dollars for oil. They are not attacking the bank.

        Remember Mormon rarely serve. They claim mission like the wimp Mitt.

        Biden’s kid went to Iraq, where did you serve tough guy?

    • MikeN says:

      How about we will clap as Israel drops the bomb?

  21. Long Window Fellow says:

    To Eidard who said:

    My two-line comment on American foreign policy? Close down all our foreign bases and bring our troops home! Putting them to work on rebuilding our tawdry infrastructure requires half the budget dollars of supporting them abroad.

    So if I understand you correctly, you’re saying we should put even more civilian people out of work when these displaced troops take over the domestic “rebuilding of America”(even as frightening as that sounds)?! Or are you saying we should give those troops their pink slips and close shop? What’s your objective here? Isolationism? Social engineering? Or are you honestly that stupid?!

    I could go into the obvious “bully” argument where running away solves nothing. I could even go into the obvious argument about how it would cost a lot more if we ever needed to go back! But that’s just too easy.

    The hard thing is really quite simple but not if you’re a liberal: We need to stop spending public money on pure bullshit!

    For example, things like PBS and “Big Bird” really are pure bullshit! One thing the the government might like to do is possibly consider not taxing them if they actually fulfill some kind of public service. But to continue funding any entity whose executives continue pulling in mid 5’s to even 8-digit salaries and where the American tax-payer doesn’t even get a vote on who these executives are (other than to maybe “donate” whenever there’s a begging campaign), I say let them pay for it themselves. The government should really just let PBS compete in the free marketplace but then limit any earnings PBS makes almost exactly like it does with the Army or even the USPS – since they too are “non-profit” – and usually accountable to someone who is elected too!

    But then we also need to start taxing the real society killers like millionaire farmers with their farm subsidies, companies “too big to fail” who don’t pay taxes (or even get additional money for shipping jobs over seas) or even religious groups who somehow always find a way into the governments pockets. It’s one thing to raise money to build a new social center of some kind but not if there’s a profit to be made by some private entity on the public’s tax free dime. As soon as any public money is involved, even if it’s in the form of a tax deduction to a would-be donator, it’s no longer a private activity or even private property! And to deny anyone access to any publicly funded resource/building/service based on some weird qualification such as a belief is just plain wrong! I also say that any donations collected in any coffer – especially churches – for no specific reason should also be taxed. After all, that money is also “income” which is no different than what a waitress or waiter might earn in tips.

    Now, would you maybe care to THINK about other sources of public money rather than to recklessly close Army bases and run away like cowards? Care to consider legalizing prostitution or dope smoking?! Cause you’d have to be a complete moron to not realize all the public money we continue to waste trying to maintain those “fronts.” (I won’t even go into gambling or the whole plethora of other stupid and expensive laws like non-endangering parking violations or speed limits.)

    Some studies have concluded that it costs more money to maintain the illegal status of marijuana than what we spend to keep every Army base in every peaceful country open. I think I’ve even seen stories like that right here on Dvorak too! Just look at our prisons and you might begin to see how they come to these conclusions. But then look at all the law enforcement resources and hours of prosecution! Everything from cops and attorneys to border patrol, ATF, FBI, etc. to even regular military actions in South America (to say nothing of other continents like Africa, Asia or even Europe) and the occasional dope wars they fight. Sooner or later you might begin to see the utter waste of money. And do you really think the war on drugs has been won?

    Now, would you care to look at prostitution?! It’s mostly an illegal non-taxed activity in nearly every county in America which really only hurts the two people who engage in it. Oh! But wait! I can just hear the religious zealots saying how it hurts families or causes other social problems. Probably because these are the same fools who prefer pedophilia, incest or maybe just get a thrill from the danger by keeping it illegal. I don’t know about you but I can also hear the additional lies about how prostitution will somehow ruin health care too. Forget tobacco or even alcohol! These idiots always fail to mention or even consider how legalization might just improve the health conditions since it might mean imposing some actual workplace standards.

    But to close over seas military bases? This is absolutely absurd if for no other reason than it keeps our soldiers EMPLOYED! But then I’m sure you probably didn’t even think about that, now did you?

    And while you’re at it, you might also want to consider using the USPS once in a while to help keep those people employed too. It’s probably not as important as America’s freedom is, but then freedom doesn’t exactly seem to be very high on the liberal agenda either.

    One final thought you may want to think about: Any time you hear a dumb-ass Democrat (or liberal) complain about something, try listening a little closer and you just might hear what their real complaint is – jealousy! You might also want to think about that mascot too. It’s no mistake! Asses have put America in the hole we’re all with their tax and spend policies. So you might even say Democrats are nothing more than ass-“holes” too!

    • shooff says:

      Why don’t you move to Canada. There healthy expenditures on overseas bases and defending Israel are awesome.

      Anyone who accepts a one word label for themselves (Republican, Democrat, Liberal or conservative) is a loser.

      I’m so much more.

      By the way, whatever you post under a hundred words for this group (Mike N, Taxed Enough…), or they don’t read it or understand it.

    • What? The moth is always drawn to the flame? says:

      Thank you for the Republican talking points. Glad to have another ijit here who says a lot of nothing and can’t think for himself.

  22. MikeN says:

    So why does Obama want to hire 100,000 more teachers? Doesn’t he realize things are different now? We have IPADs, computers, transparencies; we should be able to make do with fewer teachers than 100 years ago!

    • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

      Thinking is hard isn’t it?

      Ha, ha.

  23. bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

    Long Window: For example, things like PBS and “Big Bird” really are pure bullshit! One thing the the government might like to do is possibly consider not taxing them if they actually fulfill some kind of public service. /// PBS and Big Bird provide a service no one else does in this for profit world. Even if they don’t “need” the money for operations, the fact of governmental support/seal of approval is part of what allows that to happen. Typical conservative poser to complain about liberal spending programs and then go after the smallest possible thing. I’m parsing right now, so lets see you go after unwanted and last war fought military spending, offshoring untaxed foreign business profits, capital gains taxes, soc sec caps, etc…. ie==real cuts that make a difference.

    OK–confused rant centering on charitable contributions. Huge social change there. All other things being equal, probably kill off a lot of charities while increases government revenue? Sounds good to me. Charity should be charity–not a tax dodge especially to empires built on it like the Morman Cult.

    Sin tax, yes I agree here too–killing two birds with one stone: increase revenue while decreasing expenses. Silly we don’t have a “revolution” in this area—make us look more like Europe overnight.

    Military as a jobs program?—well OK, but they could likewise be more effectively employed as peace corp workers? Different psychology involved, I agree. I also agree that ex-military is all too often about all they are actually qualified to be. NOT all the time, maybe even not a lot of the time===just all too often.

    USPS–use it only when you HAVE TO like any other service in this economy. STILL one of the best run activities our government performs. Just look at the relative costs/charges. Yes, a totally manipulated market and it could be run better–but its close enough.

    Dumbos as tax and spend huh? You’ve seen the performance charts about debt going up under the Pukes more than the Dumbo’s. This anti-Liberal bias could be a blind spot as i see we agree on quite a bit.

    Speaking of asses, it does feel good to bray now and then. Howl it Loud.

    Now, on to McCullough.

  24. bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

    Lets see how fair and balanced he can be when McCullough says:
    10/23/2012 at 5:55 pm

    All of the intelligence agencies including Israel’s have agreed that Iran does not have a nuclear weapons program. /// Of course they don’t. With 1000’s of centrifuges twirling around buried 100’s of feet below mountains, you don’t have a nuclear weapons program until you have a bomb. /// Even Mickey spotted this link only supports the notion their Nuke is “not imminent.”

    So why do idiots constantly fall for the lies told by O’bush and Rmoney? /// Because I saw Netanyahu get up at the UN and draw a red line on a bomb?

    Did you not learn anything from Iraq and their phantom WMD’s? /// You imply this is “evidence” that no other country could have WMD? Or a program? Or a capability? === Really, how do you prepare this red herring?

    The politicians say “be afraid” and the fools fall for it time after time. /// Well, no one fell for it when Chamberlain said it. McCullough–rather than picking and choosing your irrlevant cherries should you be honest WITH YOURSELF that each issue/controversy/situation STANDS ON ITS OWN? Stop making stupid equations where orange = monkey shit. (smile!)

    Years away, and easily detectable, so are you another idiot that fell for Iraq WMD’s as well? /// Yep, we monitored North Korea and Pakistan too. Russia before that. WHAT YOU ARE MISSING is how a full Nuke Program can be developed in isolated constituent component programs and then RAPIDLY put together. This doesn’t even count just buying the final product when all you are working on is the missile delivery systems.

    Israel has hundreds, Korea, Pakistan etc. Iran has ZERO…thats 0 followed by zeros. /// And what is zero plus one?

    And we need to attack NOW! Gimme a break. /// No one said that. Do you have a thermometer available for a fever check? How close are you to a Dengue Fever outbreak?

    Here’s the deal, put on a uniform tough guy, put your kid in it, put your wife in it, do your part or shut the fuck up. I have no patience for chickenhawks. /// I don’t even like Hawks. All birds are dirty and usually filled with lice. I think you should focus on “risk tolerance.” No third world religious fundy society that represses women, minorities, and all but their chosen religion, who has repeatedly stated their plan to wipe Israel from the face of the Earth, while being on the Terrorist Support List, WHILE DENYING UN INSPECTORS FULL ACCESS, should be trusted—at all.

    I hope the time being spent now is being done lining up the ducks. The public propaganda is 95% in this direction. It will be fun to look for a ramp up to 100% if we get the chance.

    The sanctions are having a crippling effect on Iran. The bellicose talk may have a good effect on them too. Who do you want in office as this issue comes to bear? The reasonable Muslim, or a Neo Con Fanatic?

    Good times.

    • jpfitz says:

      bobbo, watch the movie “Canadian Bacon” and chill out.

      • bobbo, we think with words, and flower with ideas says:

        Its one of my favorites. I am always chilled. I post with my left hand so my right is always productive.

        TMI!!!! (I hate it when I do that.)

  25. MikeN says:

    Back aboard the Obama bandwagon! Donald Trump did a clever leak that he was releasing divorce records to see if he could make the Obama’s get nervous, and maybe reveal some embarrassing things themselves, but the actual news was nothing. Merely an offer of $5 million to release his college records.

    • MikeN says:

      You guys move fast. Your putting money in has already lowered the return on Obama’s victory down to 75%(as more people put money in, his price goes up, but the return is the same in both cases).

  26. The0ne says:

    Just saying,

    Other countries are spending tons of money on their military programs so on one hand we should be worry. How worry, shrug. That aside, I think we need a stronger home foundation before keeping up or investing more in our military. We need our infrastructures fix, updated, corrected or however you want to see it.

  27. MikeN says:

    So on one of the rare moments of disagreement, Obama makes an argument in favor of something he insisted during the debate ‘will not happen’.


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