Italy’s Catholic Church will be forced to pay taxes starting in 2013 after the EU pressured the country’s government to pass a controversial law stripping the Church of its historic property tax exemption.

The Catholic Church in Italy is excluded from paying taxes on its land if at least a part of a Church property is used non-commercially – for instance, a chapel in a bed-and-breakfast. “The regulatory framework will be definite by January 1, 2013 – the start of the fiscal year – and will fully respect the [European] Community law,” Italian premier Mario Monti’s government said in a statement…

The move could net Italy revenues of 500 million to 2 billion euros annually across the country, municipal government associations said. The extra income from previously exempt properties in Rome alone – including hotels, restaurants and sports centres – could reach 25.5 million euros a year…

The measure came after the country’s leadership decided in February to alter Italy’s property tax code, ending the Church’s longstanding privileges due to the severe debt crisis.

Last December, after new austerity measures were adopted in the country, 130,000 Italians signed an online petition urging the government to strip the Church of its tax exemption.

“It was time that they paid, too, with all the exemptions they’ve had throughout the years,” Marco Catalano, a 35-year-old shopkeeper in Rome, told the New York Times in February, adding that he goes to church twice a month. “They own the most beautiful buildings in downtown Rome, on Italian soil, and rent them out at market prices…

Overdue. Not only in Italy. Not only regarding the Catholic Church.

Living in a nation with a constitution requiring separation of church and state, it is truly absurd that we still don’t collect property taxes, business taxes on the money-making, profit-generating properties owned by religious institutions.



  1. Holdfast says:

    Your church and state do not look very separate from where I am sitting (in the UK).

  2. kjb434 says:

    Taxing a church in the U.S. is also violation of the separation of church and state.

    As soon as you begin taxing churches in the U.S., then the doors are fully opened for them to really get involved in the political process. Churches can issue directives to not vote for certain candidates and publicly call out candidates it does not like.

    Separation of church and state has more to it than just keeping religion out of governing, it’s the prevention of corruption that was seen in states where religions had deep ties into government.

    Once you tax churches, they can become lobbyist and guide legislation.

    The U.S. will not tax churches unless the first amendment is thrown in the chipper.

    • Uncle Dave says:

      Wrong. Not taxing them affords them special privileges that other business don’t get. And they are a business. They buy and own property, provide a service to the public, take in money, have stock market investments, etc.

      As for them being involved in the political process, lobbying, etc., they are doing all of that now. For one example, look at how many legislators make laws based upon religious influence (abortion, contraception, etc). Taxing them changes nothing on that front.

      Separation of church and state is not about prevention of corruption and the rest. It simply channels the corruption into other areas. The Constitutional separation is about the intertwining of church into the government the way it was in the past when the church often WAS the government or at its right hand.

      Treat them like any other business by not giving them preferential status.

      • dusanmal says:

        No “other business” is allowed special consideration in the Constitution of the USA. Italy has no such protection.
        Separation of Church and State is exactly that. State can’t take money from the separated Church without impacting the Church. Kind of “uncertainty principle” equivalent. Left has a big problem understanding what (any) Church is. And I am not speaking of abuses of the system like Scientology. But even those abuses MUST be tolerated (same as hateful speech in free speech protection or gun violence in right to bear arms) in order to preserve the deepest human rights.
        Church is personal belief system that person (under US Constitution) is free to join or not, participate or not, obey rules or not,… that Government can’t say ANYTHING about. Not about what is preached nor how is it funded. It is free individual will personified intermingled with the right to assemble. Even without Constitutional protection it is like group of friends meeting at the pizza place and Government wanting to tax their joined worth. Not the purchase of the pizza – Churches pay that tax when they buy pizza but the joint worth of people just because they chose to assemble…
        As soon as Government wants any money under any scheme from any Church, the separation wall is broken. Now Government CAN influence the Church and, what Left conveniently forgets: Church can influence the Government… As long as no money changes hands system is safe for both.
        So, stop with this Progressive Fascism. Government has no right to control everything and anything. At least in the USA where the Constitution is clearly the bill of NEGATIVE rights placed upon the Government. Where Constitution serves to strictly limit what that Government can do. And it allows no influence over any Church.

        • NobodySpecial says:

          The point of the original story is that in Italy (and Greece with the Orthodox church) is that any business that claims to be church owned pays no tax – so just have a couple of bishops on the board and a complex net of subsidiaries and your shopping mall doesn’t pay property tax

        • Wing Nut says:

          As one right wing so called “nut” to another: YOU HAVE YOUR HEAD UP YOUR ASS!

          Obviously, you have NEVER taken any classes in U.S. HISTORY! Nor do you seem to understand the Constitution. Clearly, you are a product of a failed education system. Perhaps that’s because you are also a religious “nut” too. And that’s where we differ.

          Separation of church and state is simply that: separation of church duties from state duties (“state” as in “government”). And if any church wants to meddle in State duties then I say back the fuck off or pay your dues!

          America IS NOT and SHOULD NOT be endorsing ANY religion especially if any favoritism comes as tax break. Therefore, if any church wants to raise money for some business venture then it’s a BUSINESS! It’s NOT A RELIGION and as such should be subject to TAXES just like anyone else!!!

          I’m NOT saying we should impose a property tax on any actual church either. So long as the building is used exclusively for religious purposes then that’s about the ONLY exception I think we should leave alone. But as soon as those church’s are used in any way as a BUSINESS which raise MONEY then I say TAX THEIR COLLECTIVE ASSES including the property where the money was raised!!!

          It get’s especially hard to distinguish what business income is when the money “earned” is given as a gift. But it’s very easy to distinguish a religion from a business when the money is invested or used in any way to generate more money. And for a religion, THAT shit has to STOP! Besides, if you’re truly a religion then you have little or no need for money anyway other than to maybe pay the water bills or buy food. But even that is debatable.

          Uncle Dave may be a leftists or even a flaming liberal, but that doesn’t mean he is wrong here. You need to take a history class or two, or read a book on the subject before you PRESUME to know something you clearly DON’T!

          • Wing Nut says:

            @Egon Ruuda (Since there’s no room left to continue a thread):

            I could give a crap what YOU or your church earn somewhere else. It’s what you HAVE HERE that matters. It’s what you HAVE IN THIS COUNTRY and are able to USE that should be TAXED — as long as you believe all taxes are fairly imposed and all! (But that’s an argument for another time.)

            Apparently, you don’t own property or else you would know that EVERYONE pays something called property taxes – EXCEPT CHURCHES! Even if you have a mortgage, you probably pay these taxes through your lender. But NOT always!!! So if you’re like 90-percent of the mortgage holding DOPES then you probably don’t have a copy of the current year’s property tax receipt! (BTW, there is a HUGE scam many asshole lenders might use or neglect to comply with which might get you thrown off your property. And it all deals with property taxes. But it’s something that low life rent-fucks would know NOTING about until they’re out on their asses usually because their dip shit landlord was also an idiot too!)

            But wait! There’s MORE!!!

            If you are a state recognized church and do an activity the state calls “non profit” then you can actually make money at it!!! But I won’t bore you with those details since your lack of an education clearly has failed you on the PRIMARY gripe here. (You probably also think the looming “economic cliff” is some sort of plot by rich people – or republicans even.)

            Here’s the thing: All anyone has to do to qualify his/her property as a “church” (in order to avoid paying certain taxes) is go through some sort of STATE indoctrination in order to be considered something like “The Church of The Worshiping Idiot Turds” (TWIT)! Check with the IRS for more since that’s the “department” you will deal with in this country.

            And if you seriously think that by NOT paying taxes that it “will do nothing in an economical sense” then you have no BRAIN – let alone a head to shove up the only thing you do have which is your ass!

            If you have PROPERTY IN THIS COUNTRY – regardless how you earned or stole the money to buy it – then YOU ARE STILL TAXED ON WHAT YOU HAVE! That is, UNLESS YOU ARE A CHURCH!

            If you don’t like it then you can always MOVE to one of those other countries you just plundered. Good luck with that.

    • kebos says:

      You talk as though church does not do the things you mention, i.e. lobby, guide legislation.

      Hellooooo! The church already does that and more due to the fat profits they reap yearly. Taxing the church is long overdue.

    • tcc3 says:

      All of those things you mention are happening now.

  3. Mr Windows says:

    The Church (and other churches as well) actually DO pay taxes; many different kinds of taxes. Payroll taxes for one. They do have as an entity an exemption from corporate income taxes as they are defined under that particular section of the US Tax Code as a charitable organization, much like United Way, The American Red Cross, The United Negro College Fund, etc. Strip away the tax-exempt status of all religious organizations, and you have to do so for ALL tax-exempt organizations.
    Looking over the county assessor’s office website for my parish, I see that they do pay property taxes, although at a much reduced rate. So to single out the Roman Catholic Church and to say they pay no taxes is somewhat of a bigoted and very distorted view of reality.

    • NobodySpecial says:

      The law in Italy is to pay property tax on “purely commercial” property. At the moment if a church owned hedge fund is a major investor, the final project pays no property tax. This allows them to get a very favorable deal as investors and under cut those poor oppressed bankers on Wall St.

    • Wing Nut says:

      You are MIXING UP two completely different kinds of taxes!

      Talk about distorted!!!

  4. msbpodcast says:

    Damn fuckin’ straight.

    Tax the bastards out of existence.

    • spsffan says:

      I think you mean Darned fuckin’ straight. But yes indeed!

      And don’t forget the temples and mosques as well.

  5. Tony says:

    I never understood why it was never a requirement of tax free status of a church would require it to contribute (maybe 50% of untaxed income) to the betterment of the surrounding community, i.e. Homeless shelters, food kitchens, etc.

    • Wing Nut says:

      Maybe it’s because they actually believe Jesus/Mohammad/Buddha/(insert favorite story teller’s name here) actually does it.

      Then again, a lot of those church goers seem to “believe” it’s a state’s responsibility and therefore don’t have to contribute. After all, a good chunk of tax dollars already go to those charity programs often in the form of tax breaks. So just why a church should do it too? That’s a good question.

      But here’s another one: If money truly is the root of all evil as most religions say then why do those very same religions want so much of it? You’d think that after Jesus himself got pissed off about raising money in a church that at least those groups would stop it.

      • deegee says:

        @WingNut said:

        “If money truly is the root of all evil …”

        If you are going to try to quote the bible, at least get it right, ok?
        I capitalized the important part you (and most others always seem to) left out.
        Money itself is not evil, it’s just a method of wage or barter, but if a person is willing to do anything / almost anything to get it, then that is where sin enters in.

        (KJV) 1 Timothy 6:10

        For THE LOVE OF money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

        • Wing Nut says:

          Said like a TRUE IDIOT!

          • deegee says:

            That’s a nice response to correction and truth.
            Those who are wrong and have lost the argument are the ones who resort to name calling.

    • bobbo, one lib-tard spanking right wing retards for years says:

      Tony–you make a good point. BUT lets be clear, there is a big difference between taxing real estate which Wingnut was focusing on, and taxing income which you addressed.

      Churches still use fire protection, police, garbage, sewer and should pay property taxes that collect for that. Seems to me, lots of property tax goes to primary education systems. Churches all encourages birth of kiddies, so I don’t see any reason not to pay Property Tax there to.

      There is NO CONSTITUTIONAL restriction on taxing churches. Its all Sup Ct decision way back when. With our current hyper active Sup Ct, who knows how they would rule what with the religious nut balls on the Court? Clarence might find a precedent he would support?

      As with many legal issues, I don’t see a “morality” about it. To tax or not to tax a Religion is not a moral question. It effects what it does and gives us a society of a type as it does. Leaving morality to toil along on its own.

      I think taxing the income of religion would actually encourage them back to their original purposes and have them spend the money on community services so as to reduce their taxable income. Probably have a good effect.

  6. Dallas says:

    Agree.

    We should tax them with property tax, income tax, intangibles tax and make taxes retroactive since Pentecost and due immediately.

    Also a stiff fine for the Crusades payable by turning the Vatican into a homeless shelter.

  7. jbenson2 says:

    If this goes through, the Pastafarianism movement is going to be pissed.

  8. Harry says:

    Time to start taxing the Evangelicals, they have been a political block too long.

  9. deowll says:

    I think most of the people here are confusing their rules with what is going on Italy. I’m sure the laws vary all over the place and I’m not going to pretend to know all of them.

    In the US churches have to pay income tax on anything that can produce revenue like publishing houses that print religious material but sale to anyone. The same would apply to rental property.

    Church employees have SS taxes paid, etc. The exact rules covering pastors are complex because some domination do the hiring and in other cases the local congregation does but they do pay taxes.

    In TN sales tax can be waved for items that will be consumed by the church like candles, floor wax, furniture, etc. but then we regard them as groups that do good deeds because they are.

    The property is not taxed unless it is used for commercial purposes.

    • kjb434 says:

      If you think logic and deep though are present to clearly understand this issue can be found here, please leave. This blog is for uncontrollable ranting and rash judgments.

      You do have a point. Churches do pay taxes. Think of every Christian based hospital in the U.S. (which there are many). These commercial entities are treated like any other business in the eyes of the government paying all sorts of taxes.

      People on the left are generally incapable of accepting that you can spend less versus just do a money grab which never solves problems in the end. They also try to pass off logic for uncontrollable rage and hatred of people who think different. This post and several of the comments displays the bigotry and intolerance of the left leaning ideology. And don’t mistake me for raging right wing guy. I don’t fall into that category. Just see the world a little clearer.

      • bobbo, one lib-tard spanking right wing retards for years says:

        Yeah…. very clearly. Except for dividing the world up into Left = Free Ride, and Right = I Got Mine, Screw Everyone Else ideology.

        Oh to (clearly) see ourselves as others do.

        Ha, ha. Clueless: on a blog, complaining of rants.

        Silly Hoomans.

      • Wing Nut says:

        You’re probably RIGHT!

        This blog IS for IDIOT RAGERS with NO EDUCATION! (You know. That crap the teachers tried shoving down our throats which included things like math, science and HISTORY?!)

        Just why it surprises me that so many leftist’s like blogging here probably shouldn’t be any surprise. And in that respect, you’re probably right again! After all…

        Idiocy and Liberalism go well together. It’s “designed” that way.

        • Wing Nut says:

          … But not necessarily all liberal ideas are bad either. And that’s what REALLY sucks since the inch takers will always try to take that last mile – or more. (Recall the saying: Give them an inch and they will take a mile?)

          Liberalism is a medicine best given in extremely small doses. Otherwise, you end up with MIND poisoning!

  10. The0ne says:

    In the process of getting my own church set up so I can too enjoy this benefit. It’s free money from government, the idiots…umm, people and organizations that wish to get screw…umm, help out.

    Wish me luck stupid people and make sure you leave a reply if you want to join and give me money. Thanks losers.

    • Wing Nut says:

      I hope you succeed even though I won’t be donating.

      There seems to be one piece of truth I’ve always thought was a bit too real (cause it’s very very TRUE!): Education is NEVER free! So remember that when you’re out there scamming for those donations.

  11. alessandro says:

    funny you’re not so adamant about taxing income by for profit companies that gets hidden via transfer pricing. I guess you know which side your bread is buttered?

  12. good old london A.Win says:

    Lets not compair dollars and euros, but 2 billion is small change,

    In England we created 300 billion euros / equivalent recently from thin air or less. who gets that ? Oh its the same old boys, smoke and mirrors. We the people are being taken to the cleaners every, cough, every day !!

    • Wing Nut says:

      If you just typed that on an Apple device (partly made right there in jolly old Ireland) or even something running Windows, then YOU TOO are part of the very same PROBLEM you profess to dislike.

      I’m not quite sure what that has to do with anything HERE since you DO seem to be off on a tangent. But there it is, nonetheless.

  13. dittmv says:

    I am not impressed. Assuming the picture above is accurate, 71 Billion is a moderate drop in the bucket of a US 1.5 Trillion budget deficit.

    The unintended consequences of redirecting this money to fill a budget gap will likely be worse.

    • Wing Nut says:

      Check your brain at the door.

      Oops! Looks like you already did that. Sorry.

      Comparing potential revenue with someone’s national debt is rather like comparing oranges to cow shit. After all, there’s plenty of it and it never ends. Right?!

  14. shooff says:

    Mitt Romney’s Church is a huge business. It is one of the biggest landholders, cattle producers, and water owners in the American West. They use federal land to graze those cattle and collect the water that falls on taxpayer owned land.

    Right now the State of NV and the State of Utah are negotiating water rights that effect Las Vegas and Mormon Church income. Who’s going to win that one?

    Romney had huge LDS church backing. Fasting and prayer meetings devoted to helping him win.

    Strip those hypocrites first. They have ton’s of money and no payroll.

    • Wing Nut says:

      Did you hear the one about Humpty Dumpty?

      Think you can keep a cohesive thought long enough to make SENSE?!

  15. Mextli says:

    I contribute to a church in my neighborhood and do not even belong to it. I just happen to know of the good work it does with my money and yes you can target your contribution.

    I give to the “Good Samaritan Ministry”. They do just what the name implies, help the needy. The pay for a tank of gas, emergency housing, food, utility bills, clothes, and so on.

    Believe it or not church is not all about profit, 100% of the contributions go to those in need.

    • Dallas says:

      How do they accumulate the gold statues? The crusades are over so there must be some $$ going to lavish furniture and bling .

      • Mextli says:

        The church is an institution of man and as such is flawed. Obviously there is some $$ but you might be surprised how many folks buy trinkets for the church and have their name put on them.

        • Dallas says:

          Flawed is a kind word but point taken. I don;t agree people buy the church trinkets though.

          As a matter of fact I believe not only is the church overdue on paying taxes, but I believe a full half of what people take as church deductions are fraud.

          Altogether, a taxed church and elimination of the associated fraud, political influence amounts to a sizable benefit for society.

    • Wing Nut says:

      That’s good! There are other charities like the Salvation Army that many of us SHOULD donate to as well.

      But when your PRIEST is up for retirement, you might ask yourself how it is that he is able to take in a pension or even Social Security when HE never paid a damn thing into it. Now take that concept and step out just a little bit and look at the CHURCH! Do you see “the” problem?!

      (That’s probably a waste of time since “concepts” are almost always lost on religious idiots. They prefer to have “faith” in what someone TELLS them from some fairy tale rather than to use their own BRAINS or anything.)

      • kjb434 says:

        ? Priests (at least the Catholic ones) aren’t eligible for Social Security or Medicare/Medicaid. The church actually prohibits accepting those services.

        Care to make anything else up?

        • Wing Nut says:

          Priest, Minister, WITCH DOCTOR! It’s just a JOB TITLE!

          And you’re wrong about PENSIONS too! They are eligible and DO take it! Right along with Medicare/Medicaid if their organization doesn’t have a HOSPITAL/CLINIC they can get FREE care at. EVERYONE gets that shit! Just ask an illegal alien!!!

      • Mextli says:

        Well I will cherry pick your first paragraph. I think the Salvation Army is a fine organization that uses it’s collections to actually help people. I give to it as well.

    • bobbo, one lib-tard spanking right wing retards for years says:

      You found one church you think is an exception, and I don’t doubt it is.

      I do wonder what else they do?

      I’ve always been curious about how money flows up and around in the Catholic Church too. Golden Candlesticks in Vatican City while native Indians are starving: Just the way God wants it.

      Poor organizations more likely to be pure….. what with money corrupting and all that.

  16. Wing Nut says:

    All I am saying is that NO BUSINESS should be given preferential treatment JUST because they happen to be part of some group like the Archdiocese (a.k.a. The Catholic Church).

    I would ALSO like to see all the crusading stop too. But as long as the crusaders pay their FAIR SHARE in taxes and other fees then about all anyone can do is step aside.

    But then, that’s REALLY the problem. Now isn’t it? It’s NOT fair and hasn’t been fair for a really long time!

  17. Jack O'Shyte says:

    Ain’t it the truth, John, ain’t it the truth.

  18. Lou says:

    Make the leaches pay.

  19. Gildersleeve says:

    I thank the Lord my God that this blog has as much political relevance as a bucket of warm spit.

    The question to ask to counter the argument within this ridiculous thread is this: Why would we in any way want to mimic any part of the European Union? They are trying to mimic us but failing miserably. My ancestors were very wise and brave people, scrambling to get the hell out of Europe and distance themselves from it as best they could. There were good reasons for this, folks. Leave failure at the OTHER side of the Atlantic.

    • Grandpa says:

      If the church can and does spout political speeches from their pulpit, they can and should pay taxes. And that is exactly what his happening and exactly why they should pay taxes.

      Think outside the church and you will see why this is so.

  20. Peppeddu says:

    Ah the famous loophole where churches are not taxed.

    The catholic church in Italy understand this concept very well.
    They have 5 star hotels for “Catholics” and because in the building there’s also a small room where you can pray, the entire building does not have to pay property taxes at all.

    Not only that, since many people when they die leave their property to the church, it’s estimated that as much as 1/3 of all the real estate properties in Italy belong to the catholic church, and they are often rented out.

    No wonder they’re so against the property tax that every Italian has to pay except Churches and Banks

    And guess who’s at the government over there?

    • msbpodcast says:

      The church knows what’s what.

      Barring stupidity like nuclear, um, accidents, tectonic plate shifts, and climate change, real estate remains forever while owners come and go like leaf litter.

      Buy land between the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn above 300 feet in elevation and you’re buying into tomorrow. Anything else is subject to change

      While not really eternal, its much longer term than we’ve been around as something recognizable as a species.

  21. MikeN says:

    So Eideard hates Catholics and Uncle Dave hates Jews, traits common to liberals. Any other groups that should be hated?

    • Uncle Dave says:

      Where the hell did you get that idea?

      • NewFormatSux says:

        http://dvorak.org/blog/2012/11/19/israel-vs-palestinians/

        Let’s throw in cops and the military too, but for some reason liberals love government despite that.
        Love of criminals is high on UncleDave’s list.

        • Uncle Dave says:

          There’s a considerable difference between thinking the creation of Israel by pushing out people who had lived there for centuries was wrong, and hating all Jews.

          I also don’t hate cops and the military.

          I hate the scumbag cops who are crooked and violent, and the vast wastage of our money that we pour into the military that allows cost overruns to benefit their friends. I also oppose the military being used to fight wars for oil (like Iraq, etc) and extend “American interests” (ie, whatever big business wants).

          As I have stated many times, I am a liberal in the old sense that the Republican party used to be. Small government, non-interference in people’s lives (eg, gov out of issues like abortion, drugs, gay marriage, etc), and so on.

          And what criminals do I love? Give specific examples.

          • Dallas says:

            Don’t fall for their lame Fox News trap of creating a label and then baiting you to defend yourself.

            Their political party is dying and desperate.

          • Conan says:

            I think the response to Hagel for defense says it all: If you aren’t for Israel doing whatever it wants, including making US (A) go to war with Iran, you are an anti semite.
            I guess now, if you speak bad of any religion, you are an anti-semite or as Pedro notes above, must be in favor of the Muslims due to fear of them.

            My solution a Prayer Tax. That hits the Muslims hard, Jews a little bit and only sinful Christians.
            It could be an Ipad app so my Apple stock can keep going higher with their 30%!!

    • Captain Obvious says:

      Did you get your dick stuck in a tree?

  22. Rich says:

    This is the perfect conversation for about five years ago. I don’t think the question is “should we tax the church” but rather “what can we do to reform our wacked tax system”. Give the government more money? I know Eidard has more sense than this and is asking this ironically. If we tax religious institutions we can add them to the list of rape victims including individuals, corporations, et al.

  23. Supreme Ultrahuman (I see the comment system is still designed for retards.) says:

    I like bacon. Bacon should not be taxed.

  24. bobbo, one lib-tard spanking right wing retards for years says:

    MikeN invites derision and says:
    12/29/2012 at 9:18 am

    So Eideard hates Catholics and Uncle Dave hates Jews, traits common to liberals. Any other groups that should be hated? /// Yep–conservatives in general but always when they slop over into non-financial issues. True Conservatives are of course ignored in the debate and are simply counting the days to Armageddon. False Conservatives are the imbecile RICH who think they made it all on their own and don’t own anything back. Like Rich ((Small R, Little Dick)), and Loser they categorize any tax as a form of slavery: they are just that stoopid.

    Society—something we all live in. It needs certain safety nets and general services…. and no guns.

    Queue the common talking points.

    Show me a Teapublican or NeoCon and I’ll show you a developmentally challenged hooman being. They are just that retarded.

    Yea, Verily.

  25. bobbo, one lib-tard spanking right wing retards for years says:

    Uncle Dave says:
    12/29/2012 at 9:06 pm

    There’s a considerable difference between thinking the creation of Israel by pushing out people who had lived there for centuries was wrong, and hating all Jews. /// I read the book but more remember the Movie “Exodus” by Leon Uris made a big point that when the Jews first occupied the West Bank the locals ran away in fear and to join Arab Forces to fight the Jewish takeover. The Arabs united and tried to Militarily defeat the new Jewish State. After losing the war, the ex-locals decided after all that that they wanted their old properties back.

    —or—- just the opposite as you say and the new Jews pushed the locals out? Why didn’t they push them all out?

    BUT==either way, how to best “know” what happened beyond individual stories ((how to “add” them all up?)) and then further: what difference would it make? / should it make / could it make?

    Land is held by those with the will and ability to do so. No exceptions anywhere at any time. “Not ready to attack just yet” is not an exception.

    Reality.

    • Uncle Dave says:

      A line from a screenplay I once wrote: “History is the tale of wars as told by the victors, written in the blood of the vanquished.” You’re right in that being able to take and hold land means you now own it. But that doesn’t mean it’s right in a moral sense.

      If you, personally, had been pushed off the land, you have a moral right to attempt to reclaim it. But if it has been hundreds to thousands of years since your ancestors lost it, then you have no more right to that land than someone whose ancestors had never even visited the area. As the saying goes, Might doesn’t make Right.

      Not saying Israel should give up what they took now. Just that I don’t think they had a right to take it in the first place based on ancestors having owned it long, long ago. But feeling that is a long way from the stupid, imbecilic troll comment that started this.

  26. JT says:

    The thing that everyone is missing is the church dollars are already taxed by the people who donated them to a non-profit of their choice. If you want to tax the churches then you need to tax every non for profit group out there. If you want to go that route then you may as well get rid of all tax deductions across the board and implement a flat tax for everyone and reduce the size and expense of the IRS. Not sure why it would be so difficult to set a standard rate, for example 40% for a person or organization. Take the tax at the paycheck. No deduction means no returns.

    If income is $1.00 tax is 40 cents off the top
    If income is $100,000 tax is $40,000 off the top
    If income is $1,000,000 tax is $400,000 off the top

    Everyone pays the same percentage rich and poor, The wealthy are paying more however the percentage is the same while reducing government. How can anyone complain about that?

    • bobbo, one lib-tard spanking right wing retards for years says:

      How can anyone complain about that? /// If you can’t immediately give 3 or more reasons, you are completely uniformed on the subject and should not be posting.

      Poser.

      • It says:

        I would say the poser is the one who made no points –

        • bobbo, one lib-tard spanking right wing retards for years says:

          You would? Well then…. you would evidence you don’t understand at all the burden of supporting a proposition.

          Think of it as charity. If I name 3, what in the world could poor JT come up with then?

          • JT says:

            That would be called a debate and I would then have a response to your points. But since you have made none I guess this is the only response I can give.

  27. Captain Obvious says:

    Start with the simple stuff. Make priests pay for their own child support.

  28. bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

    On only a slight tangent:

    http://huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/28/belgium-prosecutes-scientology-extortion-fraud_n_2375823.html

    Funny–they make a distinction between modern frauds and long standing ones….. and they make good waffles too.

  29. Glenn E. says:

    Reading this, I can’t help but wonder. If and when it happens, what will so many tax dodging “religious” organizations and enterprises, start calling themselves, in order to keep avoiding taxes. And surely Govt.s will give them an out or a loop hole. Maybe the Cruise Cult will declare itself a separate sovereign nation, instead of a “church”. To keep its tax exempt stasis. Or at the very least, a foreign corporation, based in the Virgin Islands. Or CSA, Church of Swiss (Bank) Accounts. There’s always going to be some dodges, built in, by those who got lobbied or bribed to engineer it that way. In fact that’s probably what takes up most of their day. Figuring out the loopholes. You know think these things happen by accident, do you?

  30. Forbidden News: His Majesty the King of America Cuong Truong created a character name Actor Tom Truong for his upcoming real life scary movie Jesus Christ reborn: The Second Coming of Christ. It’s a real life movie about the son of God using Knights created by fate to help 7+ Billion slaves fight the devil worshipers cult illuminati aka (the Bilderberg Group).


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