vote rand

The Army risks wasting as much as $1.8 billion developing a replacement for the M4 carbine that it may not need, according to the Pentagon’s inspector general.

The carbine replacement program is one the Army and Pentagon “may want to re-evaluate,” as the service is “seeking to acquire more rifles during a time when their total force structure will be reduced,” Lynne Halbrooks, principal deputy inspector general, said in a statement provided today to a House committee. The Pentagon plans to reduce Army ground forces to 490,000 by 2017 from about 560,000 in 2011…

The carbine replacement is among programs Halbrooks highlighted as having questionable value in the statement to the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform…

The inspector general’s efforts are focused on deficiencies in financial management, acquisition processes, contract management, readiness, information technology security and equipping and training Iraq and Afghan security forces, according to a staff memo prepared for lawmakers.

The Army carbine program is an example of decisions the Pentagon and military services face in culling savings from the projected $27 billion expected to be spent in fiscal 2012 on major acquisition programs…

Halbrooks’s statement summarized areas of potential savings in financial and contract management completed by her agency such as the finding in 2011 of spare parts overpricing by Boeing and Sikorsky Aircraft to support the helicopter maintenance at the Army’s Corpus Christi depot in Texas.

Those overcharges, which were previously disclosed, are cases in which the Army “did not effectively use” existing inventory before buying overpriced parts from the contractors, Halbrooks wrote…

The Pentagon doesn’t manage its purchases up to the standards of, say, Home Depot.

  1. bobbo, heres one more for you says:

    Waste, Fraud, and Abuse? Tell me it ain’t so!

    Replacement or upgrade? If any errors there be it should be on the side of guaranteeing our troops have weapons that work as well as can be provided.

    A good read from years ago is the WF&A that took place over the procurement of the M-16. We would have been WAAAAY ahead to have bought the AK-47 from the USSR…. but that would not have been prudent.

    Not like the days I was sent to fly airplanes in circles in order to maintain next years fuel quotas. Silly waste of money…. but I was under orders.

    • Mr Diesel says:

      AK is a nice weapon. Not real accurate out to 600 meters but most of our fighting is close in house to house now anyway. You can always use an M14 if you want some distance or a Barrett if you really want to reach out and touch someone.

      We have the M16/M4 series it would be best to keep them.

      • bobbo, heres one more for you says:

        When you are shooting at Jungle Folage, accuracy is not the highest virtue. Actually getting a bullet out of the end of the gun is.

        But you know that far better than I do. As far as I know, the GAU-8/A Avenger never jammed. But that is a cannon as opposed to a gun.

        I do love cannons.

        • Tim says:

          i like turtles

          • bobbo, heres one more for you says:

            I do too. In my youth, I kept a few along with other critters in a very complex difficult to maintain terrarium. Salamanders, crickets, praying mantis, centipede, hermit crabs, anole lizards, butterfly cocoons etc. Stuff was always hatching out and scaring my Mom, pissing Dad off.

            Glad I don’t do that anymore.

          • Tim says:

            Pretty much the same here — used to love the salamanders and Fence Swifts; The anoles were more of a challenge to find here, then. I had an mantis ootheca indoors not realizing it would hatch. Well…

            I had a box turtle in a little pen adjoining the fenced-in back yard. Unfortunately, the dog dug under and got hold of him; He chewed its shell up real bad. We kept that spray on bandage stuff on him for months before I released him. About ten years later and a half-mile away, I happened to stumble upon that very same tortise with its distinctive gouged carapace.

      • Tim says:

        If they are that far away, then I’d suggest going really old school. Try a bolt-action Mark IV Springfield. With a nine-round magazine, 2740 fps muzzle velocity, and a nice little detent on the peep for if one is north or south of the equator, it’s a good bet that your attackers will spend large amounts of time scrambling through the FM-(x) for the chapter on ‘how not to be seen’ as they attempt to encroach.

  2. MikeN says:

    Between this and the Iraq War post, it’s nice to see liberals willing to put at least some government spending to a cost benefit analysis. I’ll know they’re sincere when they look at Head Start.

    • Dallas says:

      Liberals hold the DOD sacred cow to accountable for their wasteful taxing of the people and then spending it on shit.

      • Guyver says:

        Liberals hold the DOD sacred cow to accountable for their wasteful taxing of the people and then spending it on shit.

        Oh, you mean the social experiment of gays in the military or having the U.S. Navy research green energy? ROFLMAO.

  3. bobbo, heres one more for you says:

    I’ll know Republicans are sincere about wasteful government spending when they stop doing cost benefit analysis on programs that have no benefit at all.

    • Mr Diesel says:

      Education Dept

      You mean like those?

      • bobbo, heres one more for you says:

        Now, Mr D===what in the World could you possibly object to in having your property seized in order to pay for illegitimate black babies taught to place crucifixes of Our Lord Jesus Christ in bottles of flourided baby whale urine?

        That art is necessary to life should be obvious.

        Yea, verily.

        • Mr Diesel says:

          Good guess about the art display I was least happy with in the last few years. Illegitimacy isn’t exclusive to people of color. One week of watching the Maury show should tell you that. It’s like a train wreck with the sexuality of bunny rabbits.

          Educational needs of our children are better served at the state and local level and not with the feds who can’t even buy a working cheap toilet seat.

      • bobbo, heres one more for you says:

        I wanted a gun
        But they gave me oil and Chalk.
        bam, Bam, BAM–In Red.

  4. deowll says:

    The only reason to replace our current issue combat rifle would be to move to a bullpup design which does have some advantages: you can put a longer barrel on a more compact weapon.

    • Mr Diesel says:

      I have at least one bullpup type weapon. Not real fond of it but I guess it would grow on you.

    • deegee says:

      M4/AR15 replacement?

      My vote goes to the ACR (Bushmaster etc.) or XCR (Robinson Arms).

  5. orchidcup says:

    The Pentagon doesn’t manage its purchases up to the standards of, say, Home Depot.

    Home Depot is not a multi-level bureaucracy that uses accounting systems that are incompatible with each other.

    Home Depot also tracks a lot less money per day than the Pentagon.

    The Pentagon bureaucracy is so enormous it has become literally unmanageable.

    • Mr Diesel says:

      That’s what governments do, all while taking away from their subjects, er I mean citizens.

    • LibertyLover says:

      I visited with a customer a couple of weeks ago who has been in acquisition mode for the last 40 years. They had so many departments that no one had a clue what the company owned or didn’t own.

      I’m supposed to help with with that. I know where to start but I’m not sure how to get 23 vice presidents to agree with me.

      This is going to be a FUN project 🙂

  6. MikeN says:

    Liberal science with regards to firearms:

    City A City B
    Population 2.7million 2.15 million
    Median income 38600 37000
    %Black 33 24
    %Hispanic 29 44
    %Asian 6 6
    %White 32 26

    Concealed Carry no yes
    #gun stores 0 84, 1500 places to buy guns
    Homicides 506 207
    Hom per 100k 18 10
    Average Jan Temp 31 63

    Conclusion: cold weather causes murders.

    • LibertyLover says:


      I think you hit on the solution.

      We all need to move to Mexico!

      • MikeN says:

        Pat Moynihan once joked that from looking at the numbers, the clear path to better schools is to move them towards the Canadian border.

  7. bobbo, heres one more for you says:

    That accounting analysis from you idiots would be funny if you didn’t use the same lame brain thinking to arrive at lowering taxes made you more free.


    • Guyver says:

      Could be worse. You could have the Left using correlation as causation to “prove” that global warming / climate change being man-made is a foregone conclusion.

  8. JT Hut says:

    Americans already waste more than that buying weapons they don’t need.

    • Guyver says:

      Americans already waste more than that buying weapons they don’t need.

      Why stop there? Americans also buy p0rn they don’t need as well as excessive food, clothes, cars, etc.

      I suppose you want bigger government to dictate to people just how much they “need” eh?

      • whoanelly says:

        Don’t need porn?!!???

        Blasphemy! I have read some wacky stuff here
        but this goes WAY to far. I can only pray that
        someday you realize what you have said today.

  9. Comanche says:

    Got to keep dishing out the fat contracts to pay back the campaign donations.

  10. Guyver says:

    And when there is a need, how fast can manufacturers defecate firearms to meet the demand?

    It’s about being prepared for future conflicts and not waiting until the need becomes real only to find that we’re logistically at a disadvantage.

  11. The0ne says:

    Oxymoron no?

    • bobbo, heres one more for you says:

      Oxymoron??? Let’s see:

      Army – Waste – Firearms – Not Needed.

      Hmmm. No. I’d say that is a quadruple redundancy.

      Observing your good contributions to this forum though, makes me think you are thinking of something else?

  12. Mextli says:

    ” No–just an intelligent response is all I’m looking for.”

    Carry a lamp.

    • bobbo, heres one more for you says:

      Plus one already. Not such a Diogenesian travail.

  13. ECA says:

    The figure dont match the number of people in the military..
    IT really dont..
    There are over 1,000,000 military personnel.
    Those numbers only count the ones in Afghanistan and IRAQ..

  14. Cap'n Kangaroo says:


    • Guyver says:

      So you say. 🙂

      • bobbo, pontificating like nobody's business says:

        Guyver–interesting circumlocution you perform there but I take it for it direct on meaning: Yes…sugar should be outlawed just as we see the beginning steps being taken now.

        So–as most simpletons do, you can see some similarities between two distinctively different issues.

        Show us and yourself that you can also spot a few differences and you will be well on your way to a baseline appreciation of anything more complicated than tic tac toe.

        For expertise and the quality of a thinking man: add them up, compare and contrast, form a conclusion.

        But for now, yes, outlaw guns and sugar for the very same reason.

        Easy Peasy.

        • deegee says:

          “yes, outlaw guns”

          You want to take firearms from civilians, only the police and military should have them.
          Now you want to take them from the military as well.

          • bobbo, pontificating like nobody's business says:

            What else could possibly happen on the slippery slope of sound social policy??? If only…… and eventually.

        • Guyver says:

          Yes…sugar should be outlawed just as we see the beginning steps being taken now.

          Spoken by a true liberal who doesn’t believe in personal responsibility.

          you can see some similarities between two distinctively different issues.

          Illustrating the Left’s use of correlation as causation is not only flawed, but cherry-picked.

          Otherwise, you guys would be doing background checks on all persons buying knives with blades larger than 2″ since we all know knives larger than 2″ are the “cause” of most stabbings in this country…. but why stop there with liberal logic?

          Why not outlaw pools and tubs since they kill more children than firearms… this is after-all about protecting children from senseless death… isn’t it? Isn’t that what the Left is so concerned about? That is unless you’re just pushing an ideology and don’t actually care about the senseless death of children.

          outlaw guns and sugar for the very same reason

          Sheeple mantra of the Left because they can’t do it without government help.

          The only thing government is doing for the Left is fostering an idiocracy and stopping Survival of the Fittest from actually exercising to its final conclusion by allowing the Left to go into self-extinction.

  15. noname says:

    Who needs guns?

    Just MOAB or NUKE em all and let God sort it out!

    A problem solved economically that even the chickenhearted republican right could hide behind and love.

  16. ± says:

    It would almost be worth it if we came up with a better front line weapon than the AK47 is. But this could be done for 1.6 M, a thousand times less money than 1.6 B.

  17. Joe says:

    The Pentagon’s books can’t be audited.

  18. Rick says:

    The US Military should look at the Israeli Tavor, which is proven in combat, uses STANAG magazines and is very easy to clean and maintain.

  19. R.R. says:

    The Pentagon doesn’t manage its purchases up to the standards of, say, Home Depot.

    True! But when I hear about the DOD spending ridiculous amounts such as $500 per toilet seat (just the seats) on various submarines or $10,000 per bed mattress in abandoned barracks it does make me wonder just where all that money is REALLY going. Funny how it takes an issue of guns for anyone to take any sort of notice yet still fail to follow the money trail.

    The DOD (Department of Defense) has been spending money like a drunken sailor ever since the American Revolution. Just look at the Valley Forge “incident” and maybe you might see it. The last time the spending was so blatantly ridiculous was during the Civil war where complete regiments went without uniforms despite having paid for them. The only thing that has got better over the years is the DOD’s ability to hide what they are buying and just who’s benefiting from it. (Anyone care to guess how private entities like Blackwater are REALLY funded?)

    “… And my apologies to any drunken sailors since they at least spend their OWN money.”

    • orchidcup says:

      “… And my apologies to any drunken sailors since they at least spend their OWN money.”

      Drunken sailors are spending taxpayer money.

      • Guyver says:

        Drunken sailors are spending taxpayer money.

        By that definition, you should include ALL government employees and contractors / suppliers.

    • Guyver says:

      But when I hear about the DOD spending ridiculous amounts such as $500 per toilet seat (just the seats) on various submarines or $10,000 per bed mattress in abandoned barracks it does make me wonder just where all that money is REALLY going.

      Much of that is due to engineering costs that are required to design or certify that a particular item performs to a particular specification.

      • Guyver says:

        The $10k on bed mattresses, I’m not aware of but it sounds like a contractor exploiting a contract they obtained with the government. I’ve seen entire buildings get built in Orlando at a Naval Training Base where for a time they taught people to be Navy Nukes, but the base was marked for closure. The buildings were still being built due to previously issued contracts.

        In addition, if the DOD does not spend all of the money Congress gives it each year, then the DOD will get less money the following fiscal year.

  20. Guyver says:

    Very disturbing news.

    Global deaths related to drinking sugary beverages (correlative to help those suffering from a Liberal mindset):

    Global gun-related deaths (also correlative for those suffering from Liberalism):

    To save ourselves from needless deaths, we need to outlaw sugary drinks. Afterall, it’s all about the numbers… isn’t it?

  21. Uncle Patso says:

    “The Pentagon doesn’t manage its purchases up to the standards of, say, Home Depot.”

    “The Pentagon’s books can’t be audited.”

    I dispute these assertions. A considerable portion of the cost of acquiring of goods by the government, especially the military, goes to exactly that end. A relative of mine recently retired after spending >20 years in contract oversight. I can tell you that she was a real stickler; she knew the kinds of things companies would do to “enhance their bottom line” and did her best to keep it to a minimum. And there were and are thousands more like her working in a veritable alphabet zoo of agencies, offices, departments, etc., etc., etc.

    Every time some politician makes lots of noise about “cutting the fat” and getting rid of “waste, fraud and abuse,” the most likely effect is to add yet another layer of oversight to the bureaucracy of acquisition. I believe more is spent on unnecessary and duplicated oversight than goes to fraud and abuse.

    • Hyph3n says:

      That’s the truth. One of the reasons that regulatory agencies in the banking industry were not consolidated is that banks could shop around for the agency that would be the kindest to them.

  22. Harry Reems says:

    The M4 should be phased-out in favor of a piston-driven rifle. Gene Stoner’s direct-impingement design created a maintenance nightmare. The 5.56 round has proven to be an inadequate poodle-shooter. However, the gubmint still has huge stockpiles lying around (and is apparently buying more daily). Most economical approach would be to standardize on a proven piston design and ramp-up for domestic manufacture. Forget R&D, buy something off-the-shelf. My recommendation would be the Sig 556, which is an AK47 built to Swiss engineering standards. Some kind of deal could be worked-out with Sig to retrofit existing stockpiles of M4/M16 rifles with upper receivers based on the Sig 516 design, while simultaneously beginning an acquisition program for the Sig 556. The 516 models would be phased-out over time, while using up stockpiles of existing 5.56 ammo and spare parts. Once stockpiles of 5.56 fell below a certain number, say 500 million rounds, we should switch to a more robust caliber. There are hungry ammo manufactures promoting either the 6.8 SPC or the 6.5 Grendel. While these are an improvement over the poodle-shooter, there is no need to reinvent the wheel, just upgrade to the old combloc standard 7.62 x 39 round. I don’t think anyone wants to go back to full-power 7.62 NATO rifles issued to every soldier (although that’s what real riflemen would do). Our military has always suffered from “not invented here” syndrome. Screw the R&D and buy something off-the-shelf that works. In the meantime, optimize what you’ve got until it is used up. If you want to understand how screwed-up the M4/M16 platform really is, read Chapter 7 in C. J. Chivers’ book “The Gun,” titled “The Accidental Rifle.”

    • Anonymous Coward says:

      The 5.56 NATO round was developed and adopted specifically because the various NATO countries (mainly Europe at the time) wanted weapons that could be fired on automatic and still have a chance of hitting the target, not to mention carry more rounds of ammo per soldier. The irony was that they had to do all sorts of engineering to the 5.56 rounds to make them worth bothering firing at an enemy.

      If they drop the 5.56, it almost has to be for a heavier, slower bullet that in the cartridge weighs about the same and has about the same recoil as the 5.56. That may be the way to go. The way things are going, none of the people our soldiers are likely to be firing at will be wearing body armor, so you don’t have to worry about armor piercing beyond what ever they’re hiding behind.

      • Harry Reems says:

        In essence, an intermediate round like the 7.62 x 39 Russian. One of the great ironies in Syria today is that many of the rebel troops are armed with genuine WWII StG44 sturmgewehrs that would fetch upwards of $20,000 each on the US collector’s market. Prvi Partizan is still producing 7.92 x 33mm Kurz to keep these rifles running. Google “Free Syrian Army captures 5000 STG44s”. I would love to know where that stockpile came from.

    • Rick says:

      There’s nothing wrong with the 5.56 round but the M4/M16 is a terrible gun.

      The Russians have abandoned the 7.62×39 and have long since gone to the 5.45×39 round.

      • Harry Reems says:

        Ya, I know the Russians abandoned 7.62 x 39 in favor of 5.45 x 39. Both General Kalashnikov and I think it was a bad idea. “Smaller rounds are great ’cause we can carry more ammo.” There is a classic video clip (which I cannot find at the moment) showing American infantrymen in Hue in 1968 firing at VC positions. They keep their heads down and hold their M16s one-handed above a wall, shooting blind and dumping mags on full auto. (Must’ve seemed like a good idea at the time.) No wonder they need to carry so much ammo! Spray and pray! My point here (and I do have one) is that the smaller cartridges do not have sufficient stopping power as has been demonstrated repeatedly over in the sandbox. Instead of buying more little bitty bullets, the emphasis should be placed on developing trained riflemen capable of delivering accurate, aimed fire with at least intermediate-size cartridges.

  23. noname says:


  24. Supreme Ultrahuman (I see the comment system is still designed for retards.) says:


  25. MikeN says:

    Spend the money to buy individuals a gun.

    The importance of this article will scarcely be doubted by any persons, who have duly reflected upon the subject. The militia is the natural defence of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpations of power by rulers. It is against sound policy for a free people to keep up large military establishments and standing armies in time of peace, both from the enormous expenses, with which they are attended, and the facile means, which they afford to ambitious and unprincipled rulers, to subvert the government, or trample upon the rights of the people. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them.

    • Harry Reems says:

      +1 MikeN. See Edwin Vieira’s new book “The Sword and Sovereignty” for more on this important topic.


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