The National Security Agency is currently collecting the telephone records of millions of US customers of Verizon, one of America’s largest telecoms providers, under a top secret court order issued in April.

The order, a copy of which has been obtained by the Guardian, requires Verizon on an “ongoing, daily basis” to give the NSA information on all telephone calls in its systems, both within the US and between the US and other countries.

The document shows for the first time that under the Obama administration the communication records of millions of US citizens are being collected indiscriminately and in bulk – regardless of whether they are suspected of any wrongdoing.

The secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (Fisa) granted the order to the FBI on April 25, giving the government unlimited authority to obtain the data for a specified three-month period ending on July 19.

Under the terms of the blanket order, the numbers of both parties on a call are handed over, as is location data, call duration, unique identifiers, and the time and duration of all calls. The contents of the conversation itself are not covered.

The disclosure is likely to reignite longstanding debates in the US over the proper extent of the government’s domestic spying powers.,,

The court order expressly bars Verizon from disclosing to the public either the existence of the FBI’s request for its customers’ records, or the court order itself.

It is not known whether Verizon is the only cell-phone provider to be targeted with such an order, although previous reporting has suggested the NSA has collected cell records from all major mobile networks. It is also unclear from the leaked document whether the three-month order was a one-off, or the latest in a series of similar orders.

The terms of the order aren’t new. Banks and banking records are subject to the same regulations. Still – the checks and balances chartered with protecting citizens’ rights continue under assault by a so-called wartime footing.

  1. bobbo, in Repose says:

    I’ll say it again because it was and remains my initial and total reaction: who cares? I don’t think a “normal” person would think that talking on the phone “should be ” private. Its like GUN rights==if you weren’t told this was your god given right, it would never occur to you that it was or to be insulted you were monitored, tracked, licensed.

    But thats a thing about Hoomans. Tell them something, and they believe it.

    Silly Hoomans.

    • Mextli says:

      If it’s no big deal why was the court order top secret?

      Maybe it’s something we the people don’t want. Isn’t that enough?

      Telephone metadata and what it can tell the authorities about you

      • bobbo, in Repose says:

        Mextli says:
        6/6/2013 at 5:36 am

        If it’s no big deal why was the court order top secret?/// What does being top secret mean when we know all about it?

        Maybe it’s something we the people don’t want. Isn’t that enough? /// That is the point of my post which you have missed.

        Telephone metadata and what it can tell the authorities about you /// Useless link adding nothing to the OP.

        Saw Old Man McCain saying this program was OK for National Security “but shouldn’t be used for standard criminal investigations.” Yeap. Turn a blind eye to criminality. I think what he meant to say was don’t track me bro… as a member of congress.

        Mextli==what is your real world concern for your metadata being collected? Can you think of any way to protect yourself from this intrusion?

        • MikeN says:

          This has nothing to do with wartime powers. Cities can already track your comings and goings with your license plates. Big cities are instituting cameras that track every plate 24 hours a day. Police can then look up where you’ve traveled in the last several months if not years.

        • Mr Diesel says:

          Theodore John “Ted” Kaczynski wasn’t tracked.

      • Dallas says:

        By definition, the NSA is a top secret operation. That’s why.

        The real question is why do you care now? The Patriot Act authorized this way back in the Cheney administration and sheeple like you really liked it because it was, well, Patriotic !!

        Instead, the ACLU was defined as commie by FuxNews and you loved it!

        • McCullough says:

          I cared then and I care now, the fact that you overlook Obama’s promise to turn back this abuse of power surprises me little. Your justification carries zero weight.

          CIA Chief: We’ll Spy on You Through Your Dishwasher

          “More and more personal and household devices are connecting to the internet, from your television to your car navigation systems to your light switches. CIA Director David Petraeus cannot wait to spy on you through them.

          Earlier this month, Petraeus mused about the emergence of an “Internet of Things” — that is, wired devices — at a summit for In-Q-Tel, the CIA’s venture capital firm. “‘Transformational’ is an overused word, but I do believe it properly applies to these technologies,” Petraeus enthused, “particularly to their effect on clandestine tradecraft.”

          • Ah_Yea says:

            I was going to say “It’s all Bush’s Fault!” as a joke.

            Dallas beat me to it (except I think he actually believes it).

          • bobbo, in Repose says:

            Don’t Worry Ah_Yea==Bush did start this.

            The not retarded at all analysis would include would these security intrusions have been made by most in power as the technology advanced to the point where it could be done?

            So, unless partisanship has blinded you (unless???), any thoughtful person would recognize Bush more as a placeholder on the technology curve rather than any real causation effort.

            But…. Bush is a retarded coked-out meat puppet for International Corporations so I really don’t blame him for being what he so obviously and publicly is: FERP.

            I do blame Obama. A twist: just come out and say what you are going to do. Why be secret when its not the secrecy that is going to give you the information you want.

            Sad Hoomans. Not psychologically adapted to our advancing meta digital singularity. …………… but its coming anyway….. like that green moss that covered up Steven King.

            Might as well relax and enjoy it…. eh what?

          • deowll says:

            There was an interesting article out a few days back about how to teach your router how to tell where in your home you were and to read the gestures you make in order to control your lights, tv, etc.

          • McCullough says:

            @bobbo – ” A twist: just come out and say what you are going to do.”

            Yes, in the spirit of the most open administration in history, I agree. Just come out and tell the people they have no rights, Civil or otherwise. I would have more respect for a dictator who admits he is one.

            And the idiots would still vote for him, like the morons who voted for Bush the ‘tard Just because he was a so-called Republican. Idiotic Democrats will do the same.

            Abolish this 2 party bullshit.

          • Dallas says:

            So your unsurprising conclusion is that it’s Obama Hussein’s fault because his executive powers should have cancelled or modified the Patriot Act.

            When should he have pushed that bill thru Congress?

        • LibertyLover says:

          I guess you forgot that it was Uncle Joe who wrote the Patriot Act.

          But go ahead and keep denying there is a difference.

    • Guyver says:

      I’ll say it again because it was and remains my initial and total reaction: who cares?

      Anyone interested in a federal government constrained by the enumerated powers of the Constitution so as to not have a totalitarian government by way of giving Big Brother unlimited powers over the people it governs.

      I don’t think a “normal” person would think that talking on the phone “should be ” private.

      Just like no “normal” person would expect to pay increased taxes for a service to spy on themselves all in the name of greater safety for the collective good.

  2. noname says:

    And why is this surprise?

    We (as in Americans) have allowed the steady erosion of our first ten amendments to the United States Constitution, our basic tenets to establish governmental limitations to protect the natural rights of liberty and property of U.S..

    the right of petition, an independent judiciary, …. Gitmo Nation

    freedom from a peace-time standing army.
    freedom [for Protestants] to bear arms for their defense, as allowed by law,

    freedom to elect members of Government without interference from the courts, ….Bush v. Gore

    freedom of speech, ….only if you have money!

    freedom from cruel and unusual punishments and excessive bail, and freedom from fines and forfeitures without trial, …Based upon mere police accusation, property is routinely confiscated, without trial or indictment …

    ….. you can just go on and on…

    • Guyver says:

      We (as in Americans) have allowed the steady erosion of our first ten amendments to the United States Constitution, our basic tenets to establish governmental limitations to protect the natural rights of liberty and property of U.S..

      IMHO the root cause is the government-run public education system. Dumb the masses down so that they can’t put the government in check.

  3. UncDon says:

    The gov’t believes that millions of Verizon subscribers simply cannot bring themselves to have iTunes accounts, and this has set off alarms at the highest echelons of power. Why wouldn’t anyone want access to the vast array of services that iTunes provides? There must be something … sinister … in that.

    So the records must be obtained just to be on the safe side that there isn’t anything unusual going on.

    (A safe bet that this is the real reason. Anything else would sound like something Adam Curry made up.)

  4. MikeN says:

    I want to take this opportunity to speak directly to those of you who oppose my decision to support the FISA compromise.

    This was not an easy call for me. I know that the FISA bill that passed the House is far from perfect. I wouldn’t have drafted the legislation like this, and it does not resolve all of the concerns that we have about President Bush’s abuse of executive power. It grants retroactive immunity to telecommunications companies that may have violated the law by cooperating with the Bush Administration’s program of warrantless wiretapping. This potentially weakens the deterrent effect of the law and removes an important tool for the American people to demand accountability for past abuses. That’s why I support striking Title II from the bill, and will work with Chris Dodd, Jeff Bingaman and others in an effort to remove this provision in the Senate.

    But I also believe that the compromise bill is far better than the Protect America Act that I voted against last year. The exclusivity provision makes it clear to any President or telecommunications company that no law supersedes the authority of the FISA court. In a dangerous world, government must have the authority to collect the intelligence we need to protect the American people. But in a free society, that authority cannot be unlimited. As I’ve said many times, an independent monitor must watch the watchers to prevent abuses and to protect the civil liberties of the American people. This compromise law assures that the FISA court has that responsibility

    The Inspectors General report also provides a real mechanism for accountability and should not be discounted. It will allow a close look at past misconduct without hurdles that would exist in federal court because of classification issues. The recent investigation uncovering the illegal politicization of Justice Department hiring sets a strong example of the accountability that can come from a tough and thorough IG report.

    The ability to monitor and track individuals who want to attack the United States is a vital counter-terrorism tool, and I’m persuaded that it is necessary to keep the American people safe — particularly since certain electronic surveillance orders will begin to expire later this summer. Given the choice between voting for an improved yet imperfect bill, and losing important surveillance tools, I’ve chosen to support the current compromise. I do so with the firm intention — once I’m sworn in as President — to have my Attorney General conduct a comprehensive review of all our surveillance programs, and to make further recommendations on any steps needed to preserve civil liberties and to prevent executive branch abuse in the future.

    Now, I understand why some of you feel differently about the current bill, and I’m happy to take my lumps on this side and elsewhere. For the truth is that your organizing, your activism and your passion is an important reason why this bill is better than previous versions. No tool has been more important in focusing peoples’ attention on the abuses of executive power in this Administration than the active and sustained engagement of American citizens. That holds true — not just on wiretapping, but on a range of issues where Washington has let the American people down.

    I learned long ago, when working as an organizer on the South Side of Chicago, that when citizens join their voices together, they can hold their leaders accountable. I’m not exempt from that. I’m certainly not perfect, and expect to be held accountable too. I cannot promise to agree with you on every issue. But I do promise to listen to your concerns, take them seriously, and seek to earn your ongoing support to change the country. That is why we have built the largest grassroots campaign in the history of presidential politics, and that is the kind of White House that I intend to run as President of the United States — a White House that takes the Constitution seriously, conducts the peoples’ business out in the open, welcomes and listens to dissenting views, and asks you to play your part in shaping our country’s destiny.

    Democracy cannot exist without strong differences. And going forward, some of you may decide that my FISA position is a deal breaker. That’s ok. But I think it is worth pointing out that our agreement on the vast majority of issues that matter outweighs the differences we may have. After all, the choice in this election could not be clearer. Whether it is the economy, foreign policy, or the Supreme Court, my opponent has embraced the failed course of the last eight years, while I want to take this country in a new direction. Make no mistake: if John McCain is elected, the fundamental direction of this country that we love will not change. But if we come together, we have an historic opportunity to chart a new course, a better course.

    So I appreciate the feedback through, and I look forward to continuing the conversation in the months and years to come. Together, we have a lot of work to do.

    • Captain Obvious says:

      Or you could just link. It’s called the internet.

      • MikeN says:

        And let Bobbo have the longest post again? In reality, it looked so short on the original page.

        Perhaps I should have just posted the summary,
        “This is what happens when you elect a president with big ears.”

        • bobbo, in Repose says:

          HA!!! Good for y’all I am in Repose.

          I was only a few sentences in and I wondered if you would give credit for your copy and paste.

          A quibble: The Constitution and Sup Ct are above the Fisa Court. Anyone familiary with the law would have a knee jerk reaction to this Harvard Con Law Professor’s characterization.

          As with most crimes, its not the crime that is shocking, but what was and is legal that it nests within.

          I will restate again: the whole notion of privacy attaching to phone calls is debateable in my mind. I think the Sup’s got it wrong in extending the zone of privacy outside of one’s house. So–its the Sups that say what our Rights are. Still applies to what is said on the phone, but not the fact that you used it.

          Shit always gets sliced thin.

  5. Anonymous Coward says:

    Keep in mind this comes from the same administration that repeatedly held closed door meetings on government openness.

    • bobbo, in Repose says:

      They all do. What are you?….. naive or knave?

      • Anonymous Coward says:

        Obama repeatedly made a point during his initial Presidential campaign about how “open” and “transparent” his Presidency would be to public scrutiny. It was a pervasive campaign platform issue for him.

        I can’t recall GW Bush, Clinton, GH Bush or even Reagan making “government transparency” an integral part of their campaigns. Obama, however, did, which is I call him out on it.

        • Guyver says:

          Obama repeatedly made a point during his initial Presidential campaign about how “open” and “transparent” his Presidency would be to public scrutiny. It was a pervasive campaign platform issue for him.

          You’re assuming Bobbo is intellectually honest about the matter. He’ll turn a blind eye whenever it’s a liberal being hypocritical.

  6. Captain Obvious says:

    Brutal. The right has been blowing smoke about the wrong things for months. The crap that’s going on in the Justice Department and the NSA is unconstitutional. Which is bitterly ironic as this president is supposed to be a constitutional scholar.

    And the laws aside, it’s just morally wrong. Plain and simple.

    • Ah_Yea says:

      A voice of sanity in an insane blog.

      • bobbo, in Repose says:

        Both wrong on both counts.

        Pedro should be agreeing with you anytime soon.

        • Captain Obvious says:

          pedro and I have an understanding. I think he’s a scum sucking prick. He thinks I’m a slime oozing asshole.

          We get along just fine.

          • bobbo, in Repose says:

            That is certainly a graphic depiction of what Pedro does around here. I thought it was between him and his donkey, but I wasn’t paying attention.

            Yes, whenever Congress and its handiwork is on view, Santorum is not far behind.

    • So What? says:

      The reason the right is not up in arms over this is they and the dems both voted their approval of it.

      • Cap'n Kangaroo says:

        I believe Congress passed it once and have reauthorized it at least twice.

        So to all members of Congress (Dem, Rep, and Ind) now ranting and raving about this now, show how you voted against it or be forever labeled HYPOCRITE.

  7. deegee says:

    Welcome to ‘1984’ 2013…

    What did everyone in the world think would happen as technology evolved? Utopian freedom? That is just a lie that they want you to believe in, to hide their real agenda.

    As technology increases and makes further inroads into every corner of the globe, the 1%’ers need to keep track of all of their 99%’er sheeple.

    Get ready to receive your microchip implant everyone.

    • bobbo, in Repose says:

      Most insightful comment in this thread. Good thing I beat you by 4 minutes.

      Kinda like Darwin and…… that other guy.

      Ha, ha. I may have to resort to my nom de flame to amuse myself more.

  8. bobbo, in Repose says:

    McCullough says:
    6/6/2013 at 9:15 am

    @bobbo – yes, in the spirit of the most open administration in history, I agree.

    And the idiots would still vote for him, like the morons who voted for Bush the “tard TWICE!

    Abolish this 2 party bullshit. /// Obama was the rational choice over McCane and $Rmoney. Why in the world do you think “any” third party is free from the same ills, evils, and seduction of the two parties? What do they do…. float down from space or step out of a third dimension??

    Name the third party candidate you think would have made a better Presnedent in any race? Your choice will be guided more by what they said/promised than by what they might ever have accomplished. Being a third party candidate, they all benefit from escaping the close/unfair/biased review of the political process. Look what happened to the exception: Ross Perot. he was a STRONG 3PC until the stress of running for office revealed him to be a loon. totally correct about the 3-4 things he had to say ((that sucking sound … around the corporate teats…echo from Mexico)) and still a total loon.

    Stop the fantasy. Let reality be your mantra.

    Yea, verily.

    Swapping one lie for another: a partisan still believing

    • McCullough says:

      The problem with you is, you’ve surrendered. Bent over and welcomed it.

      Yes, we’ll never know until we’ve at least tried a different approach.

      It matters not who I voted for. You would call him a loon because he’s not a Liberal or Conservative prick.

      • bobbo, in Repose says:

        My point, that you do not address is: how do you know he’s not a prick? The same faith, with less track record, as anyone does in anyone else they choose.

        How is your faith based approach better than/different than anyone else’s faith based approach?

        • McCullough says:

          Fuck faith based approach. Let’s just not even try, because we can’t / shouldn’t ask for something different, because it’s not “reality based” in bobbo’s vaunted opinion.

          You’ve surrendered, good for you. Your theme is always the same, to just accept it and move on.

          • MikeN says:

            Yea he’s surrendered, and votes liberal on the grounds they will provide ‘scraps from the table’.

  9. deowll says:

    So far non of you have noticed the real hoot here. Holder got in trouble for doing this to the AP (Sure he did it to Fox but neither the media nor most of you guys care about Fox.) The truth is they were doing it to everybody. Please note that if Verizon has such a warrant served it is a given that AT&T, etc, has also been served.

    That means the information Holder wanted was _already in the system_. What he did suggests that even though it was already in the system he had no ability to access the information through the government thus it was easier to get another warrant.

    This is part of what I was afraid of. These KGB wanna be’s are setting on all this information but as the Boston bombing shows Homeland Security isn’t talking to Homeland security or the local cops so the information is worthless until _after_ something like the Boston Bombing when they can go back through the records to build a case.

    Please note I’d bet money they are tracking retired military and Tea Party types rather than OWS types or semi radical Muslims because that’s their idea of PC even though none of the people claiming the Tea Party types are violent have ever been able to produce Jack to back up that claim and a lot of other groups are defiantly into violence and have been arrested in job lots.

    As evidence for my claim please remember people being jerked out of their homes at gun point by the thousand in Boston and the perp not found until some guy went and looked at his boat because he saw blood on the ground at a location that should have been searched but wasn’t then the trigger happy nut jobs shoot up his boat in self defense before learning the guy was unarmed and already badly injured before they went wild and shot up the neighborhood.

    Please further note that plenty of evidence turned up about the bombers as soon as somebody started to crawl through the mountains of data HS already had.

    Please also note we have plenty of evidence that the government is targeting for harassment the political enemies of the party now in power. They follow the rule of help your friends and hurt your enemies as BO stated in his speech to the Hispanic community.

    I seriously wonder if our brain dead Congress critters are smart enough to figure out their calls are in this data base and that most likely many of them have been targeted for tracking and harassment by various Fed Gov employees playing by Obama rules: help your friends and hurt your enemies.

    • bobbo, in Repose says:

      Just casually following the news, seems to me the AP story is similar to but not the same as this Verizon story. Is this already clue enough?

  10. dave m brewer says:

    I rather that they put this to some good use and let me (us) know what Apple is planning for WWDC. I’m sure they know.

  11. shooff says:

    This is not new news? It is new discussion. The fact that this is made public during the Manning trial is likely not a coincidence but orchestrated by who is the question. Wikileaks? US government? Israel?

    Frontline did a story about the Patriot Act 8 years ago. They recount how HS/NSA set up snooping rooms in 31 (?) major telephone switches throughout the US. They walked right into private corporations built secure rooms and started splicing into major trunk lines.

    Life offers 4 options: Freedom, Privacy, Isolation, Loneliness.

    You choose.

    • bobbo, in Repose says:

      Only 4 choices huh?

      Well, nobody is free and there is no privacy.

      Looks like we are back to that old Two Party System?

      Ha, ha.

      Yes, my friends, life offers you only 4 choices.

      Silly Hooman.

  12. jim g says:

    sure am glad i don’t own a phone

  13. super77 says:

    Nothing to worry about, it’s for “educational purposes” only.

    • Cap'n Kangaroo says:

      It will only be used for terrorism, espionage, and nuclear proliferation investigations.

      And child porn investigations.

      And drug smuggling.

      Hell, in three years the NSA will probably turn all the files over to the MPAA/RIAA.

  14. god says:

    If you think this important, decide whether or not to return your own senator to office. Here’s the vote to continue the FISA process in the so-called Patriot Act:

    Nary a beef with my two senators who both voted against renewal.

    BTW, Diane Feinstein and sexology champ Saxby Chambliss answered one question in the article in a press conference, this morning – saying this was just the regular renewal as per the Patriot Act for the last seven years.

  15. bobbo, in Repose says:

    McCullough says:
    6/6/2013 at 10:20 am

    Fuck faith based approach. Let’s just not even try, because we can’t / shouldn’t ask for something different, because it’s not “reality based” in bobbo’s vaunted opinion.

    You’ve surrendered, good for you. Your theme is always the same, to just accept it and move on. /// Yes, you are just another religious fanatic shouting his dogma.

    Seriously—ARGUE YOUR POSITION instead of just mindlessly repeating it.

    I am “entranced” every time I hear Saint Ralph speak. Real Change. Real STRUCTURAL change to remove the corporate interests from our politics. VERY GOOD IDEAS. And I believe Ralph would try to do this with every fiber of his being. With the Dumbo’s and FERP’s dug in to oppose his every move…. what IN REALITY would a non-dogmatic realist really expect?

    John Anderson came before Ralph. Sounded very reasonable. Talk is cheap.

    Talking the 3-5% minority parties that can’t make the ballot? Green Party, Libertarian Party, KKK, Nazi?

    Grow up.

    • bobbo, in Repose says:

      Throw in the Sup Ct recently ruling against every good idea that attracts me to Ralph and you have a guarantee of nothing actually happening until Ralph sells out to whatever behind the scenes cabal he would be partial to.

      Everybody chooses which barrel to bend over.

      Don’t you know that?

      Silly Hooman….. thinks he is special.

    • McCullough says:

      Bend over. It’s your favorite position.

      • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

        Aping Pedro now are we?

        Yes, yes, yes—I’m bent over the false reality of the two party system.

        How is this different than YOU being bent over the illusion of a third party savior????

        Its all dogma, and all silly. Except for me of course because I am….. The Pragmatic, Existential, Evangelical anti-theist and resist all Dogma in favor of fact based Dialectic………….


        As Joe says on Morning Joe: “I like to Win.”

        How have you come to think that Losing is Winning McCullough?

        Hmmmmm? Dogma will rot your teeth.

        Hee, hee.

  16. bobbo, in Repose says:

    Since I’m getting Sleepy, and have popped a beer:

    Many, many third party candidates “look like” they offer policies and ideas that would move the country along to actually addressing the challenges we face. But will it Blend?

    History shows with only 1-2 exceptions that if a TPC gets popular enough, his electability gets undercut by one or both of the two parties including the TPC’s position in their own platforms. That done, the candidate with the better combo of Name Recognition, Money, Organization, Camera Friendly Debate Appeal will win.

    Wasn’t Teddy Roosevelt our only TPC winner?…and that was as an Ex President???…… (Google…. OH!–He had Name, Money, and good debate skills, was Ex Pres====and as Bull Moose Progressive Party===HE STILL LOST!!!!!!!)

    You know what the best idea/candidate who is rejected by the voting populous is called? Thats right…. the loser.

    So in America’s History, NO THIRD PARTY CANDIDATE HAS WON…. and you counsel to vote 3rd Party? How will that work again?????

    Well, if everybody would just stop bending over the barrel and agree with me that MY CANDIDATE was the best one…. then…..

    What are you —3 years old?

    Ha, ha—best advice I have ever given: Grow Up.

    • Tommy says:

      Great, I come here for an intelligent discussion, and all I get is Psychbobbol.

      • bobbo, in Repose says:

        ….. and all I get is Dogma and BS.

        …… and a cold beer.

        Life is good.

  17. spsffan says:

    Am I missing something here, or am I correct that this is only about cell phone calls?

    If it’s only cell phone calls, well, what do you expect when you broadcast your telephone calls into the air for anyone to intercept?

    On the other hand, I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if they tapped the land lines as well, but that doesn’t appear to be the story here, and that is a very different and much more worrisome issue.

  18. Guyver says:

    If it’s only cell phone calls, well, what do you expect when you broadcast your telephone calls into the air for anyone to intercept?

    Aside from being able to handle more simultaneous callers the move from analog to digital was to also provide better security through encryption OTA.

    Don’t forget the whistle blower at AT&T who out’ed an NSA program that had all AT&T traffic (voice, data, ISP) going into a special room a number of years ago.

    Bottom line is the only people who can provide the information and violation of privacy the Feds are looking for are the cell phone carriers. To make things more palatable, it’s all dressed up for our alleged security.

  19. sargasso_c says:

    I for one welcome our new █████ ███████ overlords.

  20. Dave Phillips says:

    It seems to me that there aught to be a telephone company for the rest of us who are not paranoid.

  21. bobbo, in Repose says:

    MikeN says:
    6/6/2013 at 4:25 pm

    Yea he’s surrendered, and votes liberal on the grounds they will provide ‘scraps from the table’. ///// Thank you Mike for knowing my memes. You have to know them before you can chant them like a Mantra.

    Whether starving or well fed, its better to have scraps off the Masters table than to have no food at all. That gives you a choice. Starving people have no choice. Yes, yes: Revolution!!!! If that were the case, where is the Revolution?

    I wish I could live in a fantasy world where I could make my own food and live independently from those who make my shoes and step on my toes. But life does not operate so contradictorially. The job of a thinking human is to weigh all the conflicts and recognize where is own best self interest lies—along with everyone elses— and make the best informed decision. Like whether or not to vote for someone who is going to lose or not. Like everything else, pros and cons to such voting. Times when it is the right thing to do, times when it is the wrong thing to do.

    Add them up. Clear eyed. No tears.

    Dare to be rational.

  22. Glenn E. says:

    “The contents of the conversation itself are not covered.”

    That’s only because the NSA already has a means of obtaining that, separate from Verizon. It’s called Echelon, remember?

  23. bobbo, in Repose says:

    Guyver says:
    6/6/2013 at 2:53 pm

    Obama repeatedly made a point during his initial Presidential campaign about how “open” and “transparent” his Presidency would be to public scrutiny. It was a pervasive campaign platform issue for him.

    You’re assuming Bobbo is intellectually honest about the matter. He’ll turn a blind eye whenever it’s a liberal being hypocritical. //// My, my. Dogma and BS……. and HEY!!!!!! My beer is warm.

    This characterization of Obama and Me has been raised before–and my actual response is not to knee jerk and lie as the FERP will do. Here it is again: “He Lied.”

    Children—Obama Lied about being transparent. Was not that transparently OBVIOUS when he said it? A politician running for office and his lips are moving???====C’mon–all together lets chant the answer: “He’s Lying.”

    What Maroons.

    Whether Two Party, Third Party, Wrapped in a Flag, or a War Hero: THEY ALL LIE. Voting is NOT the choice between Good and Bad, Truthful and Lying, and so forth but rather degrees of everything in every one of them.

    I know the FERPs won’t believe this, but Obama is not the only lying politician in Washington.

    Imagine that.

    • Greg Allen says:

      Well, he did change Bush’s massive warrentless wiretapping program to getting a warrant. And not wiretapping. But, alas, it’s still massive.

      I felt like a lone voice in the wilderness but I did warn everybody about this when conservatives took a collective dump on Constitution after 9/11. Once given away, civil rights come back very slowly. If ever.

    • Right is RIGHT! says:

      What was your first clue that Obama is another piece of shit? The fact that he is a POLITICIAN? Or the fact that he’s a LIBERAL?!

      Sure! Republicans (and conservatives) have their problems. And SURE! many of them also lie. You said it — they’re ALL politicians. BUT!!! Add it up, which you won’t do probably because you CAN’T, and you will see that the lies from the LEFT are MUCH MORE DESTRUCTIVE!

      IDIOTS like you who BELIEVE what your party TELL you ARE what’s wrong! And just like the press who give the liberal left a pass on almost any issue you also CHOOSE to close your eyes to the really bad leftist politicians — like Obama.

      It’s clear that you will never admit the FACT that you made a bad choice. But here’s the thing about Obama: HE NEVER HAD ANY REAL EXPERIENCE! 8 comparatively FAILED years at a meaningless state level for Illinois and not even one full term at the federal level. Yet, you still elected his lying ass based ENTIRELY on what he said – JUST LIKE SOME MORONIC CHURCH-GOING LEMMING!

      Quite simply, YOU ARE A PARTISAN PINHEAD who is no different than a BIBLE THUMPER! You are so lost in your world of leftist propaganda that you can’t even recognize the truth – JUST LIKE THE RELIGIOUS-RIGHT MORONS YOU RAIL AGAINST FOR BELIEVING IN “THEIR” 2000-YEAR OLD FAIRY TALE! You will always side with the left no matter what and we have seen it over and over.

      So if your hero “Oh Bummer” gets raked for his leaderless uninformed STUPID reactions when we see him flapping his lying ass mouth over issues like the IRS, or pretty much anything else, then it should remind us all of the LEFTIST LIES that our current POLITICIANS and dumb-ass followers (like you) can’t help from telling. You can also be sure that one of your liberal hero’s will somehow try and blame everything on George W. Bush again too – MORE THAN HALF A DECADE LATER! And if you don’t see that lie then you’re just a damned fool.

      So what does any of this have to do with the NSA and the total abandonment of any Constitutional rights? Try this on for size: YOU LET YOUR POLITICAL HERO’S IGNORE OR EVEN BASTARDIZE OUR CONSTITUTION! So is it any wonder that SOMEONE will screw us? When you give your political guy the power to do something, you seem to forget that he will eventually become the OTHER GUY! It’s pretty damn short sighted, but then I would expect nothing more from a partisan fool who only wants a free lunch.

  24. bobbo, in Repose says:

    Being naive, I just assume the Gubment has a back door on the chip to read encrypted docs. If not true today, will be soon.

    Kinda makes me wish I had something to hide?

  25. Admfubar says:

    NSA = the National Stasi Agency

    where you as an american are guilty until proven innocent!!

    which you wont be able to prove as the evidence that is gathered is classified, for use in our new star chamber court system

    • noname says:

      Then you have:

      bobbo, lying in repose said:
      “I’ll say it again … who cares?”

      Citizenship used to be a thing Americans eagerly cared for and believed and fought to keep their hard won rights!

      Now it seems some promote the convenience of reverting to essentially an English subject because the government just knows best!

  26. Greg Allen says:

    Conservatives hate this not that Obama is doing it. We liberals have hated this all along.

    Is this a chance to get back some of the rights we gave up after 9/11?

    Would the GOP be willing to do some problem-solving? Is this carping simply because they hate everything when a Democrat is in power?

    I’d like to see some new laws which makes this broad data gathering highly regulated in private industry and illegal for law enforcements agencies.

    • MikeN says:

      True. Obama has shown he cannot be trusted with power. Government cannot run properly while he is president.

  27. bobbo, in Repose says:

    Its all a slippery slope but what is being done has always been legal and NOT a violation of any rights: the gubment is keeping track of when you make a phone call and who its too. Evidently, that has always been legal to do. The CONTENT of the conversation is till constitutionally protected meaning the gubment must get a subpoena to listen in. Not much of a burden.

    Who cares and WHY???

    The right or privacy seems as miniscule an issue as I can imagine.

    When phones were first developed, the conversations were on multi party lines and connections made by multiple human operators. THERE WAS NO EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY. Do we think its a GOD GIVEN right that only took milenia for the tech to catch up with?

    Silly Hoomans. Tell them nothing is something, then take nothing away from them and watch them whine.

    For those of you who supposedly care…. what do you guess is the best remedy/reaction/protection against further erosions?

    A. Buy a Gun.
    B. Support the ACLU.
    C. Bcome a single issue voter on the issue?

    Choose one or more if you don’t want to follow instructions or color within the lines.

    • noname says:

      Bobbo, for someone “who doesn’t care”, you seem to write allot insisting Americans shouldn’t care!

      You seem very troubled that Americans do care and you do protest other valuing their rights too much!

      Why would anyone “who doesn’t care” protest about others who do care?

      You’re not a government mole are you?

      I ‘am not someone who gets hung up others excessive words, I watch their true behavior and infer motive from that, not what they say!

      • bobbo, in Repose says:

        Thats a good point noname and an analytical factor of great worth. Mind the exceptions…as I am a known ditherer.

        When you find yourself “upset” focus as narrowly on the subject at hand as you can. In this instance: don’t confuse the more reasonable umbrage at having one’s conversation listened in on with the more neutral fact gathering of the fact that you made a phone call and to whom. You can legitimately be upset over the one, or the other, or both===just know which one it is.

        As dithered now several times, PERSONALLY I don’t care about either and care more about a third close tangent: being told honestly what my gubment is doing. Now that I know, I remain as happy as a clam. All my nefarious deeds will remain subject of my dreams only allowing the authorities to go after the dumber actors.

        Eh violet?

    • MikeN says:

      C is the answer. It works for the NRA, who will endorse any Democratic incumbent who votes on their issues, no matter how liberal. I wondered if they would endorse Obama over Romney the gungrabber.

      • bobbo, in Repose says:

        Thats a tough one. They might balance the gun rights with the tax breaks for big manufacturers….. and with Rmoney, all you had to do was wait 5 minutes for the opinion you wanted to show up.

  28. Right is RIGHT! says:

    If you use ANY Google product then SHUT THE FUCK UP!

    You WILLINGLY give your info to some company like Google, Facebook, Twitter and the WORLD but somehow have a problem with the government having that same information? That seems like some major fucked up reasoning unless you plan on committing a few CRIMES or something.

    Personally, I trust the NSA a whole lot more than I do Google or any COMPANY or BANK! Because if you look, it’s not even the NSA that has a problem – it’s their masters! Try looking at the real problem. Try looking at the credit reporting agencies, Tans Union, Equifax, Experian!!!

  29. tomdennis says:

    You said it was OK to give up your rights to fight terror. I voted no most folks voted yes to give up their rights.
    The government has been keeping track of me since 1950.


Bad Behavior has blocked 19609 access attempts in the last 7 days.