Again, shouldn’t be a surprise.

Mr. Pickering was targeted by a longtime surveillance system called mail covers, a forerunner of a vastly more expansive effort, the Mail Isolation Control and Tracking program, in which Postal Service computers photograph the exterior of every piece of paper mail that is processed in the United States — about 160 billion pieces last year. It is not known how long the government saves the images.

Together, the two programs show that postal mail is subject to the same kind of scrutiny that the National Security Agency has given to telephone calls and e-mail.

And here’s one reason why this and electronic snooping is all a problem:

The program has led to sporadic reports of abuse. In May 2012, Mary Rose Wilcox, a Maricopa County supervisor in Arizona, was awarded nearly $1 million by a federal judge after winning a lawsuit against Sheriff Joe Arpaio. The sheriff, known for his immigration raids, had obtained mail covers from the Postal Service to track her mail. The judge called the investigation into Ms. Wilcox politically motivated because she had been a frequent critic of Mr. Arpaio’s, objecting to what she considered the targeting of Hispanics in his immigration sweeps.



  1. orchidcup says:

    According to the article, this has been going on for 12 years.

    How many kids have been born into the National Security State?

    One more generation, and the sheeple will be convinced that privacy is not a right.

    Fortunately I will be dead before then, and I won’t give a sh*t.

    • bobbo, we think with words but low a gasket or large dildo when trying to think of new ideas, it often being easier to follow the herd says:

      Say Orchi—how much privacy is violated when YOU give a letter to the USPO for them to read 15 times and during that process they take a photo of it? Use any scale you want…. say from 1-10? I will give that privacy violation a………………… ZERO.

      Call me a fascist, but I see no privacy in not only doing things in PUBLIC, but doing things in conjunction with the US gubment.

      Silly Nilly to get all upset just because something gets labeled “your privacy.” Even an idiot giving this a passing glance knows there is no privacy involved.

      Just look.

      • dusanmal says:

        Silly you, just question what would founders of the country think of this… During the long history of the country this kind of abuse is RECENT. It is clear from direct interpretation of the Constitution and many Supreme Court decision following it that the Government have no right to collect such data, that it is private. Problem is, technology have evolved during the same time as Progressivism have taken root. In GW times it would have been hard to collect such data. Now it is both easy AND Progressivism have taken the root in the legal and political system.
        Did Government collect such data during GW times, during Lincoln times? No (and it was possible, scribes could have copied each address and sender, easily). It shouldn’t now. There is the privacy right in the Constitution (but Progressives care for it only when abortion is in question, not when the obvious extension of the old tech’ comes to new tech’ in communication). Tampering with USPS items is still a Federal crime… Just they conveniently want to forget about it when it suits Big Government Progressives.

        • bobbo, we think with words but blow a gasket or large dildo when trying to think of new ideas, it often being easier to follow the herd says:

          Hey Deuce–pure gibberish. Nice to see you off your talking points…..not eloquent/coherent at all.

          I do agree with you thought that during George Washington times, they did not do any electronic surveillance.

          Good Point.

          • Tim says:

            It was top-secret. They kept it under their tri-corner’d-hat. Silicon been around long lots of time.

  2. noname says:

    “judge called the investigation into Ms. Wilcox politically motivated”

    This judge must have had a wild hair up his ass against Sheriff Joe Arpaio!

    If it was the FBI, NSA or CIA you know the judge would rule it not as obvious abuse, but as an opportunity to protect Americans!

    After all, that what Americans expect post 9/11, protected and freedom less!

  3. Tim says:

    People need to put all their correspondance on a post-card. Otherwise, you are a terrorist, polluting everyone else’s mail with an extra dose of americium to make sure you are not a threat to the regime. Also, if you get a paid return envelope from Bed, Bath, and Beyond… Stick a brick in it before dropping it back into the post.

  4. orchidcup says:

    No wonder the Postal Service will not be allowed to go bankrupt.

    But no doubt FedEx and UPS are part of the mail cover scanning program as well.

    Photo of Americans protesting the National Security State.

    • msbpodcast says:

      Of course they are.

      You get a computer tracking waybill with every piece of communication you end.

      What did you think they did with the source and destination info? Erase it?

      Your pension data (every company you ever worked for, for how much and for how long,) is required for a determination of your benefits.

      At CN I worked for the pensions department. Some of the records were on cardboard tabulating machine sheets and went back to the 1800s. (survivors’ benefits for people seconded out to the military during the First World War.)

      Converting and making all of those records machine readable was a godsend to the department.

      • dusanmal says:

        But the Government is prohibited, by the Constitution to use such data for anything. Explicitly. Data may exist (just remember recent Dvorak old video of a certain TV show cop, just as recent as 1950′s) but Government CAN’T use it. Only very recent Supreme Court decisions allowed a breach of it when NEW tech’ (pones – new tech??) is considered. Many Supreme Court rulings exist explicitly banning this kind of data collection from USPS. It is formally a crime for Government to collect it, even if it can, easily.

  5. Taxed Enough Already Dude says:

    Uncle Dave, Justice Kagen’s skewer in chief at DU—had to look hard to find a conservative somehow abusing Obama’s spy apparatus…

    But he is a Sheriff of a county, not president of a country, and the question involves one nutball, not every American… and there is real doubt Obama cooperated with the Sheriff on anything, given he has been trying to destroy him ever since he revealed the truth about Obama’s birth certificate.

    The oblique antiRepublican posts aren’t working, you should return to your direct smears. The are more effective.

    • Taxed Enough Already Dude says:

      ps: I sent Arpaio hundreds of dollars to defend himself against Obama, not doubt that is among the reasons I was targeted by the IRS.

      An update. Before, the IRS demanded immediate payment of $91 K + or they would seize assets and bank account.

      Now after a little heat from Congress, the last demand was for $939.00, and rather than threaten to seize my bank accounts, they dated the letter two weeks in the future, and gave me an additional three weeks to pay.

      Evidently they are too busy shredding documents and passing strong magnets over any digital record of their threats against honest law abiding taxpayers like me.

      For a while I thought Swat would show up, produce every complaint made against me by Dallas at Attack Watch.com, and shoot everyone inside.

      • Taxed Enough Already Dude says:

        At first the elites (including McCain) were glad the TeaParty was being destroyed…

        Senators (mostly Democrats) demanded the IRS investigate.

        Dickheads here, like Mr. Fusion and Dallas demanded I be investigated…for professing such radical ideas like smaller government, and prosecuting the folks responsible for the collapse.

        Everyone wanted the TeaParty destroyed, they all called us Terroristts. You can review the archives to verify the statist anger at Americans exercising their 1st Amendment Rights…

        I want justice. I want every progressive who conspired against my first Amendment rights, whether they be in the IRS or Congress, brought to justice and punished severely…

        That’s the only way we will prevent the police state from appearing.

      • Taxed Enough Already Dude says:

        It was choreographed by the White House, Obama & collaborators attacked the Tea Party both directly and by allusion, and his minions got the message loud and clear and they went after us.

        IT is said investigators couldn’t find one command signed by Hitler detailing any action against the Jews. There was no smoking Gun.

        Hitler put his people everywhere, they knew what he wanted and they didn’t have to be told to do it.

        Same with Obama, he infested Government at all levels with his agents of America’s demise…and now they populate the IRS, EPA, NLRB etc….and work tirelessly to destroy America, to punish it for its alleged sins…and anyone who speaks about against the program, is an enemy of the state and every lever of government will be used against them.

        For the moment there is an American Spring, Congress is looking into Obama’s crimes…but the Media isn’t reporting on it, and most Americans don’t know what’s happening…so when the time is right, the war against freedom will resume.

        You statist bastards who support Obama’s program, will likely win. But I die free.

        • Taxed Enough Already Dude says:

          Progressives, you should wake up…Obama supported the Muslim Brotherhood…against progressives…against secularists who wanted to join the 21st century….and he is doing the same in Syria

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_-Ie6JQquM

          He is using you to bring America to its knees…to bankrupt it…

          After he destroys us, who know what he is doing, he will destroy you as you figure it out for yourselves.

          Just as he wanted progressives beheaded in the ME, so it will be here…if you resist.

          Resistance then will be futile…now is the time to join lovers of freedom…

      • msbpodcast says:

        Why? Because a well informed populace of 99%ers is difficult to govern?

        That applies to the 1%ers too.

        The oligarchs like them ignur’nt and stupid too.

        It just needs them to be venial, vindictive (possibly venerial,) and hated.

        Psychopaths without a conscience or a shred of decency who will fire people without a thought of what the out sourced are supposed to do to not starve to death when they’re caught up in one of these periodic creative destruction purges.

        • Taxed Enough Already Dude says:

          A simpler explanation, the major media outlets have family and friends working in Obama’s government and campaign, and they agree with it philosophically…and so are vested in its success.

          They aren’t watchdogs now, they are lapdogs and its documented the White House choreographs news coverage and supplies them talking points.

          All this was revealed and yet no public outcry which is why I fear, when the time is right, the American Spring will end, and the IRS & crew will strike even harder.

  6. Taxed Enough Already Dude says:

    The real war on women is Obama’s support of the Moselm Brotherhood, and its radical Jihad programs against other religions and secularists who just want to live in the 21st century.

    Barak Osama must be in morning today, his buddy Morsi was deposed.

    But will the skewers of free speech broach Obama’s antiAmerican policy, now that there is a massive wave of anti Obamaism sweeping Egypt:

    http://zerohedge.com/news/2013-07-02/guest-post-egyptians-love-us-our-freedom

    Next blog will be about Palin and how she is destroying the Republican party’s chances to win elections….

    Or something like it.

    We all know how concerned Uncle Dave is about Republicans winning elections…

  7. pedro says:

    And this surprises you, how exactly Uncle?

  8. Glenn E. says:

    Some years back I snail mailed a relative some CDRs I made of old LPs I own. Ones that are out of print, so they can’t even be bought today. I scanned their album cover art, and put the images on a 3.5″ microfloppy. When all this arrived at its destination, the floppy was blank. It had been erased. Even though I wrote on the outside of the packaging, “Magnetic Materials, Do Not Degauss.” They did it anyway. This is probably what killed the gray market in video tape trading, of old Tv shows and movie. Just an amazing coincidence, of course. Oh sure. As if the RIAA & MPAA weren’t behind the push to degauss anything moving thru the mails.

    The excuse for all this has been countering terrorists. But degaussing doesn’t neutralize biological weapons. And more recent mailings of unknown “powders” in the mail, proves this. Or they wouldn’t be so concerned with the results, if they could simply render it harmless, with magnetic waves. No, this isn’t about nuking viruses at all. It’s about driving a stake into the heart of media sharing, using magnet media, the entertainment industry does approve of, or can’t make a profit from sales of. So they got the postal system and UPS, to bulk erase everything, for them.

    • Taxed Enough Already Dude says:

      That’s a possible explanation, or perhaps it was the usual Government incompetence. Either way, you point is spot on, that didn’t prevent one terrorist act.

      Neither does ready Mary Jane Crotch Rot’s email and text messages, or viewing her porn sent to lovers and friends.

      They spy on us to precisely identify networks….so when they take you down, family friends will follow.

      For now, that’s conservative tea party libertarian networks or love freedom…but eventually it will include liberal progressive networks tired of giving all their substance to government, and being reduced to third world poverty….choking on the usual liberal platitudes which no longer satisfy…

    • MWD78 says:

      and yet every single one of the 5 million goddamned AOL disks that were mailed to my house in the 90′s was unharmed…it makes you wonder.

    • msbpodcast says:

      CDRs are optical media. They are entirely unaffected by magnetic fields. You or the recipient didn’t know what s/he was doing. (putting MP3s in a audio CD player maybe?)

  9. Glenn E. says:

    “Again, shouldn’t be a surprise.”

    No, actually it’s not a surprise, as much as it’s a disappointment. That the US govt. would chose to spy on its citizens, any way it could and get away with it. Talk about your slipper slopes. We’re already half way down one. And nobody in the news media is questioning whether we’ve gone too far, in the name of national security? Whose security are they protecting, if privacy and free speech are already at severe risk? Not the common citizen’s security. More like that of the powerfully connected and politically seated. So that in the future, they won’t be inconvenienced by any Grass Root oppositions.

    Scanning tons of mail covers, to find the one in a billion that might be from a terrorist, is ridiculous. Terrorists don’t mass mail their intentions. But independent political movements do. So this is how they’ll be stopped. The postal system alerts the FBI, who then sics the IRS on them.

  10. moss says:

    Not so incidentally, I’m confident UPS does the same as the USPS for Uncle Sugar.

  11. Dallas says:

    This is why I don’t write letters using pen and paper anymore. It’s an outrage.

    • pedro says:

      You don’t mind the NSA reading your e-mail but you’re outraged that your snail mail was being read and you stopped using it.

      Not quite consistent, are you?

      • Dallas says:

        I used to send my recipes over snail mail. Now it’s all embedded deep in a JPEG file.

        • Tim says:

          Got any tips for properly prepaired succulent and savory crow? I kinda doubt it but I may need one myself.

  12. msbpodcast says:

    Ted Kazinski was right.

    He was just too little, too late.

    • orchidcup says:

      National Security Notice:

      This comment has been captured for later review by authorities.

      There is a possibility of a connection to known terrorists.

    • Taxed Enough Already Dude says:

      Al Gore issued a statement, while he agrees with the goals, he has some reservations about the method.

  13. MikeN says:

    Does that mean if I drop a letter with no postage and the send to address as the return address, they’ll catch me?

    • orchidcup says:

      Only if you are connected to known terrorist organizations.

      Otherwise, your privacy is safe in our hands.

      Our security apparatus is authorized by the Constitutionally elected representatives you trust for your security concerns.

      A secret court will review the facts of your case.

      Fret not thyself.

    • Mr Diesel says:

      I was behind one of the trees taking a dump. It felt like an Occupy Rally.

  14. Captain Obvious says:

    My copies of the Victoria’s Secret catalogue and Women’s Beach Volleyball Illustrated had obviously been thumbed through before I got them. The only explanation is the NSA.

    BTW, I watch women’s beach volleyball because I’m fascinated by the physics of the game.

    • orchidcup says:

      Bouncing boobs reveal a great deal of information regarding the physics of kinetic energy and quantum mechanics.

      • Tim says:

        Not to mention hydrodynamics, fluid mechanics, and macroscopic equations of continuity and wave kinematics. If God didn’t intend tits to giggle then he would not have made them out of a shear-thickening viscous jello with a high Richardson number.

        • orchidcup says:

          No doubt a complete cosmology of the universe may be deduced from the close examination of women’s beach volleyball.

          I will apply for a research grant immediately.

          Captain Obvious is a genius.

      • Taxed Enough Already Dude says:

        Firefox kept freezing up, Chrome worked fine.

        • bobbo, we think with words but low a gasket or large dildo when trying to think of new ideas, it often being easier to follow the herd says:

          FF worked fine for me. I liked the “smaller” boobies more at the start of the video, but the larger ones grew on me. I’m just flexible that way.

        • Tim says:

          That would be ‘flash issues’ ‘Dude. I find that most of it is fixed by filtering out the bullshit with noscript and adblock — some third party pre-roll is choking on yas.

        • Captain Obvious says:

          Here’s how you fix your Firefox problem:

          "C:\Program Files (x86)\Mozilla Firefox\uninstall\helper.exe" /S

          • Tim says:

            Interesting. I don’t have that particular strap-on what with me being a Luddite and using Firefox 4.0 and all.

          • Monthy Python {deciest} says:

            It’s people like you what causes un-rest.

  15. sargasso_c says:

    What concerns me most is how the US is pushing their levels of domestic surveillance upon governments of other allied countries. The threat of a trade embargo or preferential trade status being given to competitors, often accompanies demands to meet US levels of security. Which is why I can’t carry a bottle of shampoo on a plane in New Zealand.

    • Tim says:

      Well, that and the reality that most bottles of shampoo really are a chemical assault.

    • Tim says:

      Sham Poo. Just stick to the real thing and the fragrance will be less offensive to most hoomans.

  16. bobbo, we think with words but blow a gasket or large dildo when trying to think of new ideas, it often being easier to follow the herd says:

    What are the real issues at play here? I don’t see invasion of privacy. I do see the strong beginnings of a “Surveillance State.” Close, but not the same thing. Are the distinctions different enough to care about, or should all issues between State and Citizen be called privacy?

    The injury noted in the OP was that Sheriff Arpaio tracked her mail. Uhhhh…. so what? something he could have done personally, but instead it was nicely wrapped in a bow provided by the USPO. So….he found out who she was writing letters to?==Again==so what?

    My “fear” would be that this is just a huge expensive boon doogle that provides very little safety and indeed only a sink hole for time, money, and energy when our elected overseers should be using brain power instead.

    Whats the harm? Whats the injury? And as always: the desire to be anonymous should not be confused with your right to privacy. Two very different things.

    As already referenced–I’m against these programs because they make our government stupid, not because I have privacy concerns. I’ll meet you in our big tent over by the beer keg.

    • Tim says:

      *…time, money, and energy…* Nailed it. These people do not even make fucking widgets and it’s half our GDP. This to, shall pass; And our homeland with it, I’m afraid.

    • Tim says:

      It’s a party. I’ll come over to that tent and leave off the global warming criticism of one advocating worshiping the creature more than the creator — I think God had that written down somewhere as a marker for FIN. Oh shit, there I go again.. Is that Coors light?? ewww.

      • bobbo, we think with words but blow a gasket or large dildo when trying to think of new ideas, it often being easier to follow the herd says:

        Coors light is to beer as
        anti AGW is to Basic Science.

        What ya doin’? Waiting for the right thread before you unload your Magical Thinking and non response to specific challenges???

        The Sea Level Keeps going up, the rate of rise too from my own casual view.

        Every cause has an effect. Answer this question: what happens when you put billions of tons of co2 into the atmosphere? If you say “nothing” then you suffer from Magical Thinking. Most Science Deniers do—if they can even understand the point.

        Amaze me.

        • Tim says:

          The co2 follows the warming, bobbo; That is because the ocean releases it, as well as karst (caves) formation. Water can hold less dissolved gas when it is warm. And, just so you know who I am, I think the sea level ought to be about 150 ft higher — It modulates about 300 ft throughout the geological record and it is right there in the middle that the whole of earth is a garden paradise. Just sayin’

        • Tim says:

          *What happens when you put billions of tons of co2 into the atmosphere?*

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Pinatubo

        • Tim says:

          I almost hold myself back to speak on this subject with you, bobbo, considering your delicate psyche and all. Fuck it. That Coors has left me with too much blood in my alcohol stream:

          It is not *science* bobbo. It is not science any more than ‘political science’ is science. It is not more relevant than ‘economic science’. It is just not.

          If you want to think it is more art than science then so be it. But, critics and interpreters of said ‘art’ are usually off base and not at all feeling the meaning left to us of the artist.

        • Tim says:

          If you want to talk *science* then ask a physist — that is, if you can find one that is not busy recanting his findings under the subtle influence of a pressure-washer.

  17. bobbo, we think with words but blow a gasket or large dildo when trying to think of new ideas, it often being easier to follow the herd says:

    I did four in a row once.

    Well Tim…where might we start?

    You are echoing Guyver who emphasizes there is no scientific proof for AGW….perhaps even GW…… or even that co2 is a greenhouse gas. Where do you draw the line when everything is a mix? Part Science. Part Proof. Part Guess. Part Hope. All in a matrix of error and progress.

    It may not be any more science than political science…. so I’ll say it is no less either.

    co2 follows warming?/// I read about that once until I got confused. Seems to me the feed back loops, delays, and cycles are such that those with the intent to do so can play games. I am happy to rest easy that co2 may follow or proceed GW depending on the other many factors that apply.

    Mnt Pinatubo/// Here is where science does play a major role in understanding our challenge. Science can tell the source of carbon that is in the air–whether from plant transpiration, sequestered carbon burning, or from Volcanoes or vents. The co2 that is driving AGW is from burning fossil fuels.

    Its Science. The only engine we have driving towards truth. All other approaches are for different purposes.

    Yea, verily!

    • Tim says:

      Such a pretender to science. Water vapor is the most powerful green-house gas.

      http://youtube.com/watch?v=LTb3JOVO-HI

      Well, I’m inebriated and must pass out and kill the world by farting out that fucking Coors in my bed, now.

      peace, bobbo,

      nay, verily.

      • bobbo, are we Men of Science, or Devo says:

        Define powerful. Certain hexafluorzines released during photovoltaic manufacturing are 25K more heat retaining than co2. Methane being released from frozen soils and as part of fracking are many times more retentive. Water vapor may be the “most present” but its heat retaining property is offset by its solar reflective properties–almost on a 1:1 Ratio. Besides, hoomans don’t contribute much water vapor to the atmosphere and I think its life cycle is more like 3 days?

        Early in the day to be drinking to excess. I want to, but its been too hot for the last week. I must be getting old–I have never noticed it too hot to drink beer before??? YIKES!!!! Could be a whole new phase of my life.

        Coors huh? I do assume you are just being snarky. Light on the Science…… kinda fits.

        nay, indeed!

        • Tim says:

          Yea, the Coors. Unfortunately, it was the only thing on tap under your tent. I’ve got such a headache now that I’m asking people to drill a hole in the side of my cranium to relieve the pressure.

          *Where might we start?* Fuck me running; I did not want to, anyways. It does no good. There is plenty of good science being done by good scientists inside that *field* but the observations are filtered and corrupted. That subject has been co-opted for an agenda {global warming or global governance?} It does not matter what the *science* divines; You get the policy they wanted to choke you with, anyways.

          Here I digress from warming gasses to make a point on ‘policy findings’. A little known study — The Southern Oxidant Study (SoS) found that it was not so much cars but trees, soil bacteria, lightning, and sunlight creating the troublesome pollutant of surface ozone from various species of NOx.

          As a further aside, It is a local problem and not global. When I say ‘local’ what I mean is that the hoomans all tended to congregate en mass down in the valleys and basins because, historically, that is where the good land was for agriculture. That is where the rich owned everything and built up a service class and economy to serve them. Gasses build up under stagnant inversions over basins. The shits were relegated to the ridges but, at least, can breath. — Nope, these ‘policies’ are punishing the individuals which have nothing to do with the problem.

          I would hammer the point home upon taking groups into caves in forested areas which were removed 10 miles from traffic in all directions. Ozone has a very small persistance-time in the environment, you see? After some time in there not breathing it and then upon exiting it was like huffing bleach. It’s that uncomfortable to breath because we were no longer desensitized to the O(3).

          Yes. Power companies were involved and were quite honest about why, in the shadow of their plumes, those aerosols were missing. {near field NOx (oxides of nitrogen) were, in fact, titrated out of the atmospheric column due to equillibrium rates under various temperatures and pressures until they had some time to ‘cook’ well down-wind}

          Back to policy: There was an imposition from EPA: Keep O3 from exceeding 120 ppm to less than three days a year or get a stamp of *non-attainment* — that status would mean that all industrial growth was halted with all that entails for a local economy.

          It is wrong–these communities had nothing to do with what was blown upon them from 100 miles away. It is misguided– it does not matter anyways unless you are an 80 year old asthmatic what refuses to treat with cannabis. It is also easy to get around.

          EPA hath decreed so logic and morality be damned. The solution? Well, Atlanta defoliated 400 square miles of trees south of the city to stop the precurser nox — worked. Nashville defoliated a 50 mile stretch of trees all the way to the Alabama line and tried to blame it on the drought that they were all dead. Magically, in town and north of town was no drought damage {trees locally lower the temps and titrate out the offending gasses just like those power plant plumes}. Local value recovered over ten years agent-oranging to please the fucks ~ 8 billion dollars.

          It is truely a fractal — one needs to be a scientist as well as an artist to follow all the little side roads but I must cut it short somewhere; The only thing I care to address right now is the sea level stuff.

          bobbo, as you are a good scientist, have you not considered that the slight {17 mm is not so much as 100 m} modulations in sea level are as a result of Alfred Wegener’s plate techtonics? You know, convection, advection, giant earth movements that make tsunamis, and changing volumes of ocean basins themselves? I only ask because I could not help but notice that there is no coorselation to it with co2 concentration and thermal liquid expansion or land-based melted ice.

          • bobbo, how do you know what you know, and how do you change your mind says:

            Drink nothing, or drink coors? I feel your pain. Ironically… at the end of your bout, drink as much water as you can. It flushes your system. Take an aspirin too if you can still think. Simple things.

            spent most of your time spelunking on nox. Must be your field/cave? Years ago, I skipped reading an article on how “Reagan was Right–Trees do cause Pollution.” thanks to you, I think I’m caught up. Mind boggling how various dots connect up. Only SCIENCE tells us how.

            You touched on 5-6 tangents with Alfred Wegener’s plate techtonics. But you are right–they are irrelevant to the issues of Sea Level Rise (SLR). I HATE trying to make the other persons argument but you have provided so little. Your strongest tangent appears to be that SLR is/may be caused by oceanic vents that are heating the ocean causing an increase in volume due to thermic expansion?

            Complete BS that I will not detail as that is my best guess and not your statement.

            I like the issue of AGW because I personally don’t know anything about it….. so……. how do I form an opinion on the subject……. and how do I change my mind???

            The very stuff of being sentient and alive.

            Yea, verily.

          • bobbo, how do you know what you know, and how do you change your mind says:

            Since it is glaring, I should have added I hope you don’t long engage in confusing the remedy with the causation?

            Too many don’t want a carbon tax, or the Kyoto protocols, or a carbon exchange, or whatever curative proposal is being considered and rather than propose something better they go after the science.

            Its obvious and its cretinous. I hope you withdraw from that arena.

          • Tim says:

            *…whatever curative proposal…*

            Well, I would propose the ‘green economy’ where what one grows on his land can be exchanged for goods and services. Hemp. That cellulose would make great fuel (methanol) but you guys would still bitch that we’re burning something. It is impossible to instruct ‘believers’ that, yes we are burning something and it’s called the *carbon cycle* for a reason — That the world would be in danger of going into snowball-earth because I’m still leaving too much carbon in the ground with my sloppy harvesting of roots and leaves.

            pet hypothesis of mine: co2 is plant food. They eat it all up. Earth freezes over. They die. They lay there and rot. They then fart out a bunch of methane. Earth warms back up.

            Simba, please.

          • Tim says:

            I did go back and read that little Reagan article you mentioned.
            http://scienceblog.com/4211/reagan-was-right-trees-do-cause-smog/

            Umm, I flubbed my above little anectode just a bit by conflating (a bobbo term) NOx with VOC’s {volatile organic compounds}

            I’m most dreadfully embarrassed.

            While they do point out that most NOx is from automobile emmisions {I do not agree with this}, they also note the lack of reduced ozone after stringent controls have been in place questioning if biogenic VOC’s are not in some ways hindering the O3 when interacting with NOx.

            Also, they leave out lightning and Miracle-Grow as a contributor to nox.

          • Tim says:

            *spent most of your time spelunking on nox.*

            Ahh! Now I see what you did there; Clever.

            While hitting the hippy-crack down in the bowels of the earth can be elevating, I don’t reccomend it for beginners. Nor should one go caving with just a lighter (the stobe of the flintwheel, not the flame). And, to prevent war, never ever do both at the same time!

        • Tim says:

          *Your strongest tangent appears to be that SLR is/may be caused by oceanic vents that are…*

          No, bobbo. I’m talking about subducting plates and rising sea-beds. Think if your bathtub is made out of clay; Let me refine that — if you smash your adobe bathtub with Dallas’ head then the water is going to rise.

          • bobbo, how do you know what you know, and how do you change your mind says:

            Well, I don’t know what that is but “logically” I don’t know why smashing Dallas’ head into the sea bed wouldn’t be fun for him and just ADD TO rather than replace the effects of co2 heat retention.

            but I have always been unimaginative in the bedroom. Why am I unattracted to perversions of all kinds?

            Its a puzzle.

          • Tim says:

            I’m sticking to the levels being too low… Did we miss our interglacial because of the industrial revolution and all the subsequent chem-trailing? Why do people love certain cherries but they all hate Eden?

            As the graph shows, sea level today is very near the lowest level ever attained (the lowest level occurred at the Permian-Triassic boundary about 250 million years ago)

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eustasy#Changes_through_geologic_time

          • Tim says:

            I see I need to elaborate…

            Smush in, as in dent in the side of the tub. Do you filthy libs even know what a tub is??

        • Tim says:

          *Too many don’t want a carbon tax, or the Kyoto protocols, or a carbon exchange, or whatever curative proposal*

          Yawn. Well, back in 2007, A certain NGO hack would ask “what tax?” — Because he was a good scientist, he demanded proof of me that there was any kind of tax in the works and that I should back up my statements. Hmm. the more things change…

          http://greenfyre.wordpress.com/about/

          I’ve not seen much of him there, lately — Especially after the last batch of CRU email releases. Maybe he died of cancer because of all his righteous habits or the oil companies killed him…

  18. The Monster's Lawyer says:

    I knew someone was intercepting my Clearing House Sweepstakes entries. That’s gotta esplain me not winning.

    • Tim says:

      Well, did you draw down upon them when those creepy fucks stood on your porch and beat on your door?? Inquiring minds want to know…

  19. bobbo, how do you know what you know, and how do you change your mind says:

    Tim evidently back on a Coors binge says:
    7/5/2013 at 4:07 pm

    *…whatever curative proposal…*

    Well, I would propose the ‘green economy’ where what one grows on his land can be exchanged for goods and services. /// Standing alone, barter economies are primitive not allowing for any of the activities we take today as necessary for a good life. Once you introduce $Money$ to facilitate your exchanges, then you get what we got. …. and…. btw… lots of people do barter exchanges at a low level. As usual, false choices need not overly distract us from the issues at hand.

    Nobody growing hemp wants anything Hemp. That cellulose would make great fuel (methanol) but you guys would still bitch that we’re burning something. /// Only the ignorant, the posing, or the Fifth Column. Burning grown products is carbon neutral. Even most idiots know that.

    pet hypothesis of mine: co2 is plant food. They eat it all up. Earth freezes over. /// Yeah==thats not the carbon cycle you just touched on but rather Magica Non Scientific Thinking that I think is your pet that you launch out of your back yard to harass anyone that gets too close to being on topic?

    bobbo = 6
    Tim = -2 ((thats the Coors without the aspirin))

    • Tim says:

      I was thinking more of a tax-like structure. Instead of leeching wages, the property tax would be that a part of one’s land is dedicated to bio-mass production to be turned into the local converter {sort of like a garbage incenerator steam plant} instead of 3-inch needy grass. — any extra could still be exchanged for filthy lucre.

      This keeps the charletons with the tax n credit schemes tamed. The only solutions with that is removal of individual empowerment. That does nothing to reduce CO2, but only dictates who can produce it.

      Oh, yea; terra preata.

    • Tim says:

      Imajica this, biatch. In other words, I thought you might enjoy this movie:

      http://imdb.com/title/tt0085859/

  20. bobbo, how do you know what you know, and how do you change your mind says:

    Tim no longer arguing the cracks in AGW goes on to the solutions and says:
    7/5/2013 at 5:09 pm

    I was thinking more of a tax-like structure. /// Me too. A simple carbon tax. Easy to apply, calculate, collect and enforce. Thereafter, the free market takes over. Best use of both modalities.

    Instead of leeching wages, the property tax would be that a part of one’s land is dedicated to bio-mass production to be turned into the local converter {sort of like a garbage incenerator steam plant} instead of 3-inch needy grass. — any extra could still be exchanged for filthy lucre. /// Sound to labor intense to me. I have no desire at all to grow weeds in my back yard. I doubt the economics make it worthwhile… but flesh it out, make it an option, let the free market determine.

    This keeps the charletons with the tax n credit schemes tamed. The only solutions with that is removal of individual empowerment. That does nothing to reduce CO2, but only dictates who can produce it. /// Making reasonable assumptions regarding most formulations of “carbon trading”… I agree. It might be better than nothing, but it does strike me as a scheme for Algore to make another billion.

    I do like decentralized “everything” as much as possible. Thats one of the attractions of photovoltaic collection. But, its not good for everyone/every issue. Market competition helps sort a lot of those issues out…… the fact that Coors Light still exists notwithstanding.

    Oh, yea; terra preata.

    • Tim says:

      Gosh. I guess the free market has done a great job with pharmaceuticals, fibers, food choice {think raw milk over cabbage with transgenic scorpion genes}, and fuel.

      Ffffuuuu….. I’ve been so blind. How could I forget that the guys with the guns keep one so free with only the things that matter. I guess I should have paid more attention at the government school I didn’t know I had a choice not to attend as a minor (well, that and I was made to believe that mommy and daddy go to jail If I missed a couple days) — I just didn’t learn the most important lesson Slavery is Freedom nor did I work and play well with others.

      • bobbo, we think with words, and flower with ideas says:

        gibberish. Rather a FERP approach too to think, post, that a free market approach is not the best approach to use ON THIS PARTICULAR SUBJECT because it is not so good on other particular subjects or is not a perfect solution.

        Stupid thinking, if thinking at all it is.

        Yes–a straight carbon tax like a phase in on gas starting a 5 cents a gallong and going up to 3 dollars over time==whatever Europe is doing==would then allow the MARKET to decide what kinds of mass transit, energy efficient cars, and alternative fuel cars would be appropriate. All other government intervention involves way more interference…….and btw==doing nothing is for idiots. A rational man DOES SOMETHING, guages the reaction, and does something again.

        Its the difference between being progressive/liberal and devolving/science denying/conservative/republican.

        • Tim says:

          exibit a: *co2 follows warming?/// I read about that once until I got confused. Seems to me the feed back loops, delays, and cycles are such that those with the intent to do so can play games.*

          You are damn right they play games. Right past the point of shifting the relationships 180 degrees, tacking on another 90, calling it a “correction” and then publishing it in the exclusive kid-gloves NSF journals.

          I’m not confused that you got confused. {see exibit a}

          There is a word for such passion on a subject one knows nothing about, bobbo; That word is ‘faith’.

          Faith, bobbo. But your faith is with mere bankers with an agende, here.

          Is there room for blind faith in ‘science’ or should it be left to the FERPS?

        • Tim says:

          All I’m saying about free market is that we don’t really have one. There is a difference between free market and stock market, bobbo, and that Invisible Hand has lots of strings attached limiting it’s degrees of freedom.

          For instance: consider a man who is out of work, in debt, a farmer with only one acre of land. Now, He has to consider his inputs vs. return on that land that not only feeds his family but makes the $$ for the property tax.

          Hmm. Shall he grow sweet corn, feed corn, silage corn, or Monsanto incentivised pop-corn. — Well, he can’t go to the bank for a load for conscripted seed or 400 gallons of tank-mix 2-4-d and Fuckup ™. Those inputs are too expensive.

          Considering free market value of that same acre of land — tell me, is he free to then do what science and reason dictates and grow 1/4 acre of veggies and 3/4 of an acre of the finest Alaskan Thunderfuck this side of the Prime Meridian??

        • Tim says:

          Furthermore, I don’t give a rat’s ass about limiting CO2 as that is for mis-lead fools. I only advocate the biomass economy to get us of that bridge over troubled waters (heroin) of that silver lady (needle) of the current control scheme of the past 80 years.

          Here is a story — those plotters all get their dicks-in-a-row first. Remember the energy crunch and gas lines of the mid-70′s?? Well, the head of DuPont and the head of GM were husband and wife. DuPont developed the neoprene parts for carbeurators that had no other benifit than it melted in the presensce of methanol while GM was busy making the exploding truck bombs with the huge gas-tanks outside the frame-rails; All two years before that gas-lined crunch.

          They were not going to have the happy farmers hold up the guiding light and showing the way by making fuel out of cellulose like they did during WW2, you see?

      • bobbo, we think with words, and flower with ideas says:

        gibberish.

        • bobbo, we think with words, and flower with ideas says:

          Damn posting system. Still…. this is gibberish too. What happens a billion years from now is not relevant to the discussion. I do wonder what made you link to this……nothing good that I can think of. Lazy, careless.

          • Tim says:

            Ohh, that is right; You berate someone for not caring about the human race (well, only the beach-houses) 100,000 years in the future but fuck them greys a billion years down the road??

    • Tim says:

      O. O. somebody said, “Yep==it will take a religion based on Green/Mother Earth/Nature/Gaia to spend more money and avoid the evil of petrochemicals. We are already past the tipping point for voluntary action to avoid these consequences. I look for a revolution, but revolution or not===it won’t be pretty.

      You don’t want weeds. You suggest it is too labor-intensive? Worried about letting a garbage collection truck into your backyard? Man Up!

      • bobbo, we think with words, and flower with ideas says:

        Any regulatory/encouragement scheme based on voluntary significant life style changes will not work.

        Simple stuff.

  21. bobbo, how do you know what you know, and how do you change your mind says:

    Tim–exh a. Rebuttal:

    http://scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=ice-core-data-help-solve

    To think that co2 follows temperature is a 180 on the universally accepted fact that co2 is a green house gas.

    Tim–do you agree co2 is a green house gas?

    • Tim says:

      Yes. I agree co2 is a green-house gas. And I also posit that because of the wavelenth of photon to exite up the rotational state of the molecule then one might at least think it is much as a blanket one way, as the other — could even cause cooling. like I said, I don’t give a flying fuck as it is such a small signal upon daily variation.

      Hurricanes do that to — transporting away the sensible heat. Kind of self-regulating, you see? If we were to have too much heat, then we get hurricanes to convert latent heat to sensible heat high up where it can radiate back out into space.

    • Tim says:

      The term they are dancing around about the ice bubbles in the snow is *firn* — that is a whole nother batch of hypothesis to support hypothesis. I’m all scienced out so that I’m gonna defer to this drama:

      http://imdb.com/title/tt0120152/

      http://youtube.com/watch?v=8-k8LbTQ0xs

      • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

        Very nice opening sequence but I HATE IT. Seems to be totally unrelated to the movie…. as I read its description.

        Sounds like a good movie. I’ll watch for it.

        There was another Scandanavian plotted movie a while back with women trudging around in the snow and it “may have” been about a murder too, or some other mystery, but it was not this one. I wouldn’t mind watching it again too.

        Just watched the trio of Dragon Tattoo pictures subed in English. Very well done and kept my attention. Got to piss of the Swedes that the American version was very near shot for shot and dialogue wise the same movie and while totally good, the acting/settings/photography were no better. Lots of “good” American movies are redo’s like that.

        • Tim says:

          “Was Return of the Jedi made a retarded flop because Ewocks are stupid?” — Alex Jones

  22. bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

    Tim starting to fracture when posting past the quick snark says:
    7/7/2013 at 11:09 pm

    Yes. I agree co2 is a green-house gas. And I also posit that because of the wavelenth of photon to exite up the rotational state of the molecule then one might at least think it is much as a blanket one way, as the other — could even cause cooling. /// No, it doesn’t. Most particles/compounds/elements in the atmosphere do have both qualities and most have a net cooling or net heating affect. co2 reflects a tiny amount of incoming energy but blocks a lot of the outgoing. Basic Science…coming very close to what the defintion of a Green House Gas means. Its the mark of a religious mindset to “know” one thing and to lazily believe the opposite. Ha, ha.

    like I said, I don’t give a flying fuck as it is such a small signal upon daily variation. /// Define small. Its the factor that without correction is going to change humanity’s experience on this earth—it can do this directly or by triggering heat related conspirators like methane and hydrogen sulfide and a host of other non gas related consequences brought on by co2 heating.

    Hurricanes do that to — transporting away the sensible heat. /// Again===BASIC VOCABULARY. co2 does not transport heat except as being part of the air mass. co2 TRAPS HEAT. Hurricanes do not trap heat but as you say transports heat around, probably with a net cooling effect…but I’m guessing at that. Also guessing the net heat reduction is very minimal.

    Kind of self-regulating, you see? // No. Its not. Basic Science.

    If we were to have too much heat, then we get hurricanes to convert latent heat to sensible heat high up where it can radiate back out into space. /// Yea==except its not which is why the SEA LEVEL KEEPS RISING.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_sea_level_rise

    Total fail.

    • Tim says:

      I should think it matters a great deal where the gasses are in the atmospheric column as to which way the net flux points.

      As a test, Go camping the next clear night with low humidity and no wind out there {I suggest, Siberia}. But not just any camping — go squamping {squatter’s camping} inside a large an abandoned water-tank. Lay out your bedroll in advance and also check the timer and regulator on that bottle of compressed o2 you will be relying on to live because that other tank is to fill that sucker up with 100% CO2. If you awake in the morning, jot down as to how toasty warm it is in there.

    • Tim says:

      I’ll repost my position on sea level rise:

      As the graph shows, sea level today is very near the lowest level ever attained (the lowest level occurred at the Permian-Triassic boundary about 250 million years ago)

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eustasy#Changes_through_geologic_time

      I’m assuming you know what a pendulum is and how the motion looks as it swings back and forth? Fastest in the middle and stationary momentarily at each end?

      We are at the low end of that swing but ‘momentarily’ is still well within the inter-generational miopia — If it was different in grandad’s day then we screwed the pooch somehow.

      And what a small change we’re talking about over hundreds of years. It is like 1/00th the modulation of even medium waves and breakers.

      It becomes essentially an engineering challenge and If humanity can’t deal with a few inches of water they’d had hundreds of years to work with then they probably deserve to wade around in the warm, shallow end of the pool.

      Venice seems to be fitting illustration of how to deal with too many kids peeing in the pool.

      • Tim says:

        P.S. It is ocean *acidification* and not rise I might be conserned with even if the rise is a symtom of warming from excess co2.

        But several species of plankton have been stepping up to ‘sequester’ the excess in their dolomitic bodies. — Man is probably going to fuck that up though trying to ‘help them along’ by dumping millions of tons of iron sulfide into the drink to fertilize them.

        • bobbo, are we Men of Science, or Devo says:

          Half Assed Science…. poorly applied. Wrong format to discuss “why” you have chosen Devo. Might be interesting….. might not.

          I wonder if you will ever recognize the hows and whys you denied science on this issue…. but not for so many other issues.

          Thats the nugget.