My solar panel installation from Solar City is moving forward. I’m told that the city has approved the building permits so it’s just a matter of scheduling the install.

A lot of people have been asking me why I decided to go with SolarCity rather than do it myself. I am a tech guy and I do have access to the money to buy a system up front. So my friends are wondering, what’s up with that? And why SolarCity as opposed to some other local mom and pop installer or other big company like Sungevity.

There are 2 main classifications of reasons I chose Solar City. One class is economics, but the more important class is environmental/political. So I’m going to address both of these separately.

Economic Reasons for Home Solar Electric Panels

As you all know one of the reasons for going solar is to save money. Even if power is affordable now it’s very likely that power is much more expensive in the future. In fact unless more and more people convert to solar, and we develop better battery technology on the scale that can be used by power plants, we’re going to have an energy crisis. Quite frankly, if a lot of us don’t go solar, we might not even be able to by electricity in the future. The coal and oil paradigm is just plain limited. There’s still various kinds of nukes on the table but the right kind of nuclear technology that is safe doesn’t yet exist.

So – back to economics. If I bought it myself it would cost me about $15,000 and my bill right now is like $75/month. So I’ll be close to 70 before it’s paid for and then, depending on how long I live I might be a little ahead of letting Solar City do it. On the other hand, SolarCity buys in bulk, have installers who do this all the time, and will probably do a better job than me or some other local mom and pop installer.

I also understand that because they still own the equipment that they can take depreciation in a way being a company that home owners can do so that savings helps keep them competitive with me doing it myself. And – of course – doing it myself is work. Although for me it would be somewhat fun doing the research and doing my own designs, it’s not like I’m inventing anything new. And sometimes I screw up and wished I had hired someone who would just come in and do it right.

And then there’s the money up front issue. With SolarCity there’s no money down. My up front cost is $0. So I don’t have to borrow or save the money. And quite frankly, anyone who has enough money to buy a solar system has enough money to pay their electric bill.

So in many cases what makes this attractive is for people who don’t have an extra $15k laying around who want to start saving money from the first bill. The system uses what are called Grid Tie inverters. When the sun is shining in the daytime the excess power runs your meter backwards and helps power the rest of the world. So on sunny days I’m powering my air conditioner and the air conditioner for my neighbors. What that means is that Pacific Gas and Electric doesn’t have to make the power I’m producing. And – if I understand it right, when I make excess power in the daytime when rates are high, it pays for twice as much power at might when rates are low.

So some day when I can afford a Tesla I’m really going to come out ahead. But – my main reason isn’t because I want to save money. My main reason is ecological and political.

Ecological and Political Reasons – Why Solar?

Going green isn’t just a fad for hippies anymore. This planet is our spaceship and it’s size and resources are limited. If we screw it up then we suffer. Global warming is real. I think the effects are somewhat exaggerated, but we are heating the planet. A significant amount of that heating is man made, and the effects are cumulative. The CO2 that does come out of the atmosphere goes in the oceans making them more acidic.

So there’s no doubt in my mind that we need to start migrating away from burning things for fuel. Every year solar gets cheaper and cheaper. Solar is far cheaper than oil if you factor in the damage it does to the ecosystem and the cost of wars it takes to support the oil infrastructure.

The war in Iraq for example was all about oil. So the 3 trillion dollars that we still owe for Iraq should be added to what oil costs. It’s like someone stole your gasoline charge card and bought $10,000 on it and stuck you with the bill. And that’s just for one oil fueled war.

I’m also no fan of Islam. The middle east where all that oil is is also where Muslims slaughter each other in the most horrendous ways. The beheadings, the hanging women who are victims of rape, torture, shooting little girls for going to school, throwing acid if little girls faces, the total enslavement of women. And every time I drive my car I’m funding that. The latest story in the news is that ISIS is telling Christians to convert to Islam or be put to death. I’m helping to fund that every time I fill my gas tank. I’m paying for a way of life that I find disgusting.

And then there’s the whole fracking thing. I’m kind of blown away by the idea that we don’t even get to know what chemicals they are pumping into our drinking water and what the long term effects are. It’s the whole power of the oil lobby thing and I’m tired of being under the thumb of big oil. I come from West Virginia and I hate the strip mining. I can understand why we did it in the past. But I can’t understand why we are still doing it today. Solar is the future. It’s just a matter of if we are going to get there fast or get there slow.

So – why SolarCity? Because of Elon Musk!

So – you might ask, why SolarCity? What made you pick SolarCity as opposed to some other vendor? I have a very specific reason – and that’s Elon Musk – the founder of SolarCity, Tesla Motors, PayPal, and SpaceX. Elon Musk is my hero. I can not say enough good things about Elon Musk. He is the most productive inventor on the planet right now taking humanity in the direction that humanity needs to go in. Elon Musk started with PayPal that revolutionized the transfer of money in the Internet.

Then he realized that humanity needs to move out into space at some point and NASA wasn’t getting us there fast enough. He wanted to go to Mars and if NASA wasn’t going to do it – he decided to build his own rockets. And now he is the first commercial space company delivering supplies to the International Space Station. His rockets are the most advanced rockets on the planet and they are 1/4 the price of anyone else’s rockets. And in the next few years he’s going to cut the cost by a factor of 10 by making the rockets fully reusable.

So then Elon decided that gasoline cars need to go so he started Tesla Motors and Tesla makes the best car on the planet ever. Not just a fully electric car, but the best car on the planet. And in a few years he’s going to have one that’s $35,000, which is cheaper than a gas car because it takes no gas. All the electric cars on the market today are in response to Tesla getting the market going. Elon is moving us to electric cars far faster than we would otherwise have gone. But what about batteries for all these cars? Where are they going to come from? Elon Musk!

Elon is now in the process of building the world’s largest lithium ion battery plant. It’s not just the world’s largest, it’s going to make more batteries than the sum total of all the rest of the world. This is the technology we need not just for electric cars, but for off grid solar systems and energy storage to make solar power be viable for night time use. In fact, the global warming problem is solvable. As the cost of solar goes down and battery technology increases, there’s no reason not use use solar. The best way to deal with global warming is to solve the problem.

Actually global warming is the good kind of problem to have because it is a result of humanity being so successful. So our problem are the good kind of problems to have. But even though they are good problems, we do need to solve them. Now, SolarCity is one of Elon’s companies. It is the nation’s biggest installer of grid tie solar systems. Solar City is well on it’s way to becoming America’s largest electric power company. They will generate more gigawatts of power than any other utility company and quite frankly – I want too see SolarCity succeed.

I want SolarCity to make a profit selling me power. I want them to take my money away from me. I really really like what Solar City is doing and it feel to me like I’m donating to a worthy cause. And that is an interesting concept. I’m someone who often donates to good causes. For example I am one of the funders for the Pioneer Awards that the Electronic Frontier Foundation gives away each year. In fact the only real job I had in the last 30 years was working as the system admin for EFF. Currently I’m in the spam filtering business.

But now I’m realizing that in the case of Elon Musk, giving to a corporation is at least as productive as a non-profit. But I’m not giving them money – they are saving me money. So I can do the right thing and have green energy and save money doing it. It doesn’t get any better than that. I head an interesting quote from Larry Page founder of Google said that he’s going to leave his money to Elon Musk. Here’s a YouTube video about it. How Elon Musk became the real Ironman!

And finally – there’s now way I can say enough here about how much I appreciate the work Elon Mush is doing. So I’m going to share this YouTube video with you that will give you an idea what a great think thing happening in or world because of Elon Musk. So SolarCity – take my money please!


  1. Tim says:

    Shit, Marc; I thought others already told you what you should do with your wires for you??

    did you think there would be pi??

  2. Spoor -- General Lackey, Central Services says:

    “”And – of course – doing it myself is work. Although for me it would be somewhat fun doing the research and doing my own designs, it’s not like I’m inventing anything new.

    Admirable, Marc… solar systems don’t fix themselves…

    we’re kinda a stickler for paperwork…

    • Marc Perkel says:

      Yeah – I forgot to mention that the deal includes them maintaining it. So if the main inverter blows they come fix it.

      • Tim says:

        Yea. Just like att had to come in after the lightning strike I fixed everything 3 weeks before the neighbors… “Uverse doesn’t fix itself… our battery box at least failed, didn’t it??”

        ‘Elon Musk’ … sounds so heteroflexible. And yet, I remain stiffy-free…

  3. moss says:

    It’s been a few years, now, since the cost of getting nuclear power generation up and running — and maintaining the facility – versus same scale solar passed each other going in opposite direction.

    So, after years of supporting nuclear – having worked in the field, having an idea of how much less it could cost when you get away from the greediest of contractors – I decided that any effect my still small voice might have must be dedicated to solar. And the companion piece of wind generation.

    We’re on the way to generating enough excess solar and wind electricity here in NM that plans have already been approved for new transmission lines to be constructed – so we can sell the juice to folks in California.


    • Marc Perkel says:

      That’s another thing that I want to write about sometime is the high voltage DC distribution system so that power can be moved around from place to place.

      • jpfitz says:

        I don’t remember if you mentioned your locale. I would imagine your west of the Rockies, maybe CA.

        How would the system you are having installed fare in the tri-state area? I have a neighbor down the block with a new sign on his lawn about solar and his entire roof is covered with solar panels, I mean every square inch is covered even northern facing entry pitch areas.

      • Tim says:

        Well, I forget something old everyday… I guess I’m a product of tesla/edison power wars and concluded that Edison was a dirty old man which spat upon the floor and we should all just get bone cancer from tva…

        I guess I never looked past AC for long distance transmission. I’m so vegan.

        “”HVDC allows power transmission between unsynchronized AC transmission systems.

        “”larger conductors can be used since HVDC does not suffer from the skin effect.

        ^^ {note: or a smaller conductor for the same current…}

        “”For a long AC powered undersea cable, the entire current-carrying ability of the conductor would be needed to supply the charging current alone

        and associated lack of dielectric {displacement current} heating and loss….

        I guess I should add –> less radio interferrance and bone cancer and leukemia and brain cloud.

        • Tim says:

          I guess I should also guess that it would be more resiliant to solar-induced currents on long cables… The mechanism for ac systems is that it takes a relatively low induced semi-dc current to saturate the *cores* of the transformers. They loose the inductive reactance and burn up looking like a short.

          This idea of transformer ‘saturation’ is actually how runway landing lights are usually powered up and 80’s model tvs are made between on and off…

  4. deowll says:

    Solar cells are generally deemed to be good for 20 yrs though they degrade as they age. Snow, clouds, dust and the angle of the sun all impact output hugely.

    The US has about 300 yrs worth of coal. The only way to blow that is to export it or the Toxic greens block power companies using it. The real unsubsidized cost of electricity from solar cells is about 10X that of fossil fuels.

    All the hard evidence is that we are heading into a nice long cooling trend. The computer modals on which the hypothesis of AGW are based on haven’t been anywhere near right for almost 18 yrs based on satellite data.

    Of course NASA/NOOAH say the last two months were the warmest in history after they lowered the official high June temp from the 1930s which was hotter than anything recorded since and of course they said the same thing in 2010, 2012 but those got lowered as well. Yep June 2014 was .0003 degrees warmer world wide based on surface thermometers and after lowering 3 previous records and making “adjustments” to correct the instruments.

    I have so much confidence in my government that I pretty much now assume anything it says is some sort of lie until a third party confirms it.

  5. bobbo, are we Men of Science, or Devo says:

    I do love the truth.

    Not being an expert in anything, its always confirming to see that when I actually google a subject, the truth is always slightly different than what I thought.

    A worthwhile and short read of Life Expectancy of Solar Panels:

    The key being not to think of Solar Panels as working or not but just like by big screen tv and wifey: slowing degrading over time.

    Marc—you effuse so religiously. Good subject to do it on though.

    Moss–I thought “new designs” promised the consumption of their own and existing radioactive waste? Just more lies from Big Nuke?

    Egon–yes you asked those same questions last time, and like a retard, you ask them again taking no account at all of the responses you got. Thats called: having your head up your ass.

    Do-ill: still holding hands with Egon I see.


    Understatement: the prediction is human civilization will crumble in 150-200 years. Marc thinks it will take 200-250 years.

    Yes, its a terrible thing to vaguely state for no purpose that the end of civilization is overstated.

    • Marc Perkel says:

      I think humanity will get it together and thrive.

      • bobbo, just having reinstalled his OS to defeat the RAT says:

        I never “thought” that, and the HARSH reality of what the science really means only “hit me” about 3-4 months ago.

        A few individuals are hardy==99% of us are not.

        Take away electricity from the wall, and what do you have? Now….. times 8 Billion.

        You see the challenge?

        Humans will survive—our civilization will NOT.

        Worst case scenario depending on what cascades when….huge species die off too. Maybe even humans given how group/food chain dependent we are.

        Its NOT fantasy either. Its what SCIENCE says is going to happen……unless we do something that is the OPPOSITE of what we do now.

        Not you or me, not our kiddies, but our grand kiddies. A good example of the limited intellect/imagination/imagery/common sense we big brained lizards have.

        Sucks to be Hooman—we could have existed longer than the dingo. But we failed.

        Being killed off by their own technology is one of the terms of the equation for intelligent life in the universe communicating with one another.

        Its right there: just look. Its not limited to Nukes. Shitting ourselves into Hydrogen Sulfide suffocation is also there.

        Ha, ha. I pity the kiddies.

        • jpfitz says:

          It’ll be like going camping. Building fire pits for warmth and cooking. Hunting and fishing for food. The water, I don’t know, if they keep fracking…we are fucked.

          • bobbo, having to reinstall my OS to scrub off the RAT attack says:

            for how many of the 8 Billion do you think that will work?

  6. ECA says:

    Can I also suggest, a small wind generator.. 1-2, 1k fans do very well..but I dont know your area..

  7. Total Cost of Ownership says:

    When do you expect to see a monetary return on your total investment?

    At what point does the accumulative output of a solar cell exceed the energy required to make and maintain it? This would also include the energy to build the building and other process plant infrastructure to make the first production run.

    What happens to the efficiency of the solar cell over time? How much chemical Windex is needed to clean off all the bird poop?

    • Total Cost of Ownership says:

      (And yes, I read your article. I just want to hear more about the economics.)

      • bobbo, just having reinstalled his OS to defeat the RAT says:

        Yep–on a macro/societal level all those questions are valid.

        ………in the real world, a wise consumer only needs to look at their monthly bill and the caps thereon, reliability?

        What else?

    • Marc Perkel says:

      I’ll be saving money from the first bill.

    • jpfitz says:

      Here is an article about northern climate solar roof panels covered in snow. Someone will invent or already has a easier way to remove snow and other debris blocking the sun. Maybe some sort of roofba, ya know like a roomba.

    • jpfitz says:

      More Elon Musk at work. I imagined only the 50’s sci-fy movies could pull that off with special effects. That’s a lot of fuel being burned, and a bird strike could…well maybe the gyro’s would react fast enough.

  8. Marc Perkel says:

    Since my bill is just $75/month now I’m not saving much at first. It’s mostly about not using carbon.

    • bobbo, just having reinstalled his OS to defeat the RAT says:

      You are very conserving. My bill this month is $73…but I don’t use my AC in this 113 degree heat. If my dinky was free, I’d use my AC. Hate wasting $$ that way.

      Hmmm…. looking at my bill….10.3 cents a kilowatt hour for a total of $57.

      THEN I get an unexplained “Customer Charge” of $14, a solar surcharge of 83 cents (wtf-for?)

      Big Gubment couldn’t be screwing me could they?

      • jpfitz says:

        Here on the east coast even during 84 degree temp reading on the thermostat, we only used the AC twice when the thermostat read 86. I’d rather run the fan and save the money. You gotta realize the humidity here is what makes the heat uncomfortable.

        bobbo complaining about 113 degrees, hey it’s a dry heat over on the west coast, no?

  9. Ah_Yea says:

    I’m ready to make the jump although the money is a bit of an issue since I live in an area Solar City doesn’t service.

    I agree that electricity prices will keep going up. I am even more concerned that as future demand is placed on the grid, quality of service will suffer.

    Another consideration is how much the cost of solar panels will increase as demand increases. Expect the price to soar until more fab plants can be built, which will take time.

    Now is a good time to get in.

  10. jpfitz says:

    We’re in Solar citys area of installation. I just signed up for a quote, I don’t know how my better half will see this but once I can show her the cash savings, who knows. Will have to get a new roof first, so that kinda hurts. Nothing wrong with the original current roof except that we’ve lived here 26 years and I’d rather now then later replace it.

    If it’s payments and not a all up front cost, she’ll see the savings.

    • bobbo, having to reinstall my OS to scrub off the RAT attack says:

      Yea….unless you are going to continue to drink and drive, according to my link above, you should “over size” your system so that in 30 years when it degrades 25%, you’ll still have your total watts covered.

      Even with crappy horrible insulation, my house averages 10-15 degrees cooler than outside, then I use the whole house fan to cool off after dark.

      Slight discomfort, maximum savings. don’t forget to insulate/stop air intrusions.

  11. Voice Of Ridicullus says:

    To anyone who thinks global warming isn’t real: First of all, you’re an idiot. Now go watch the following:

    So good for you and anyone else who currently has a choice to go solar and be less of a global problem. Even better if you’re not sucking up electricity and data to make your insane arguments (though, I’m sure Comcast has your back on that one — back “side” that is).

    • NewFormatSux says:

      Those videos are silly. They can be used to justify any policy. Just put up really bad stuff if you don’t do what I say and my theory is right.

  12. NewFormatSux says:

    3 points, Mark.

    1) The oceans are not getting more acidic but less basic.

    2) If solar is getting cheaper thru time, then wouldn’t adoption now be locking people into a more expensive system? I see the same problem with CFLs vs LEDs that are getting cheaper.

    3) If you are worried about CO2, then use of solar could increase CO2. The grid needs to be powered at all times. If the solar drops, then they have to ramp up electricity from other sources.
    The ramped up power generation emits more CO2 than a conventional power plant.

  13. bobbo, the hair on fire AGW'er who came to understand we are killing our grandkiddies off by the excrement of our current technology says:

    Why Morgan Stanley Is Betting That Tesla Will Kill Your Power Company ///

    My Spidey Sense tells me the time frames for growth of solar/batteries vs more coal are too far apart for anything disruptive to be talked about for another 50 years.

    Too many “break throughs” needed on the Green Side: better converters, better storage, better grids. The only thing Coal needs is for idiots to continue to lie and to sleep…… depending on which kind of science denying idiot you are.

    Yea, verily!

  14. Solar Geek says:

    Elon Musk is very good at crony capitalism. Not sure I would ever buy any product of his.

    The Green Corruption Files : SolarCity: Subsidizing the Left’s ‘green’ millionaires and billionaires

  15. Dave Phillips says:

    There’ll be Pi in the sky bye and bye.

  16. NewFormatSux says:

    Perhaps you should take your previous post on defining God and put Elon Musk’s picture there. Too much of environmentalism reads like a religion rather than clearheadedness. I saw this some years ago on this blog when people were gaga over the idea that plug-in hybrids could be used to provide energy back to the grid.

    • bobbo, the hair on fire AGW'er who came to understand we are killing our grandkiddies off by the excrement of our current technology says:

      Good Ol FNuS at least provides some quiet amusement if only for its unintentionedness when he mindlessly says:

      8/6/2014 at 10:45 am

      Perhaps you should take your previous post on defining God and put Elon Musk’s picture there. /// Valid and clever.


      Too much of environmentalism reads like a religion rather than clearheadedness. /// You would learn “a lot” if you would deconstruct what you mean by this statement. NOT here in this forum—to yourself. I mean: really think about what you were thinking about when you wrote it and what it means to you. Its a good demonstration of “how” you think. All very corrupted.

      Et violet: “Too much” of ANYTHING is bad. Thats a tautology. If “it” is not bad, keep adding more of it until bad is reached. See the non-think going on? The thing here is environmentalism. So, the sub rosa is actually that environmentalism is bad even in small amounts and I can prove this by adding to it until everyone would agree. People won’t stay on track that it is the “too much added” rather than the subject that is bad. And what is wrong with environmentalism? Its like religion making one not clearheaded. Nice loop de loop there as Atheists, Anti-theists, and Science oriented knuckle draggers could be roped in by such equation. …. but too much of anything is bad……. so close!

      So——-FxSn==>what do you have against environmentalism? Its only what you live in.

      I saw this some years ago on this blog //// OH? There is even more proof? Wonderful.

      when people were gaga /// hmmmm….. gaga. Nice concept gaga is. Anything from a mere mention to wearing her underwear?

      over the idea that plug-in hybrids could be used to provide energy back to the grid. /// So what “actually” is your point here? That full electrics can work with the grid? That is true isn’t it????? But lets keep adding to that idea until it is Bad…….hmmmmmmkay: Who said hybrids and solar will solve the solar/storage issue?

      Who said that??????

      As usual: your post is ……….too much.

      • NewFormatSux says:

        I guess that was an attempt at reading comprehension, but you failed at ‘too much’ vs ‘too much of’, rendering your critique invalid.

  17. bobbo, a new Nom de Flame: the hair on fire CACC who understands why first fermentation stops at 13%, and so will Hoomans says:

    catastrophic abrupt climate change

    Methane is only one way of many that it might happen instead of just a slow miserable death from food chain collapse, ocean collapse, energy disruption, sea level rise…… etc.

    Its all “possible” with different levels of probability….. but not in OUR lifetime……………………so why worry?

    • Tim says:

      Really? I’d rather thought we’d all just lay down in a ditch and get shot in the head…

      • bobbo, a new Nom de Flame: the hair on fire CACC who understands why first fermentation stops at 13%, and so will Hoomans says:

        Timmmy: tangents do not present you well.

        Be honest, be direct…… do better.

  18. Problem Solved says:

    I’m waiting for a viable, perpetual motion machine.

  19. NewFormatSux says:

    Mark, what is SolarCity charging for? Do they charge you for the power at a set rate of x /KwH?
    Do you get a credit for power generated and sent back?

  20. NewFormatSux says:

    Useful on a personal level, but even if every house adopted home solar, it would be a small percentage of total power usage.

    “4) PV Panels on houses. There are about 89 million houses in the US[y]. If the owners of every one of them installed 1,000 sq ft (e.g 20 ft by 50 ft) of PV panel on their roof, the total area would be about 3,200 sq mi., a small percentage of the needed area.”

    Also good comment from rgbatduke.

    • bobbo, we think with words, and flower with Ideas says:

      Now add–every roof.

      Now add–Every road Surface.

      Now add–solar fields.

      Now add–other green tech.

      Now add– etc.


      rgbatduke: ever hear of DC power transmission? Its mentioned in this very thread (I think). Imagination bent towards maintaining the status quo: retarded.

      Factually correct. totally up your ass stupid.

      One of your better posts.

      Be honest, be direct….do better.

      • NewFormatSux says:

        Oh no, you fell for the road surface idea? Why am I not surprised. This is where it starts to be a religious experience. You left out the roofs of cars too.

        • Tim says:

          I like the idea of being able to short the road out with ‘old tech’ in my trunk.

          Aside — a flyback for 20 kv, a tripler {for 60 kv}, a wire out the bottom of the car body connected to the dragging ‘brush’ {use your imagination} — rolling Van de Graff.

          impress your friends, fun at manholes.

          • Tim says:


            asphault is a good insulator, like a rubber belt; for the more consensus-minded amongst us…

        • bobbo, we think with words, and flower with Ideas says:

          Lots of green tech ideas for miles of roadways and parking lots. Not “solar” as much as thermo-electrical or some other tech?


          thats ok. You examine and invetigate, test and re-examine. And then you…………….DO……..
          what works.

          Pragmatic don’t ya know.

          same with recharging your car battery by some induction process in the roadway. Not yet? ……… OK………. DO it……. when it works.

          You know what DOESN’T WORK?: doing nothing?

          …………well, that will work for another 100 years……………until we all die.

          What is the contemplative time span of doing nothing?

          • Tim says:

            “”What is the contemplative time span of doing nothing?

            What is the penalty from community developement if your grass is made of silicon?? Hint: they are sheltered by the court…

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  28. Coordinator Terry Collins’ observation wraps up numerous viewable


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