The Moroccan-born mayor of Rotterdam has said Muslim immigrants who do not appreciate the way of life in Western civilisations can ‘f*** off’. Ahmed Aboutaleb, who arrived in the Netherlands aged 15, spoke out in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo attack in Paris last week.

Appearing on live television just hours after the shootings, Mayor Aboutaleb said Muslims who ‘do not like freedom can pack your bags and leave’. Labour politician Ahmed Aboutaleb, a former journalist who was appointed mayor of the Dutch city in 2008, is known for his straightforward stance on integration.

The 53-year-old won the praise of London-mayor Boris Johnson over his comments last week attacking fellow Muslims who move to Western nations but refuse to accept the Western way of life. ‘It is incomprehensible that you can turn against freedom,’ Mayor Aboutaleb told Dutch current affairs program Nieuwsuur (Newshour).

‘But if you don’t like freedom, for heaven’s sake pack your bags and leave.

‘If you do not like it here because some humorists you don’t like are making a newspaper, may I then say you can f*** off.

  1. LibertyLover says:

    Are you trying to piss off Phydeau?

  2. spsffan says:

    Well, good for him! It’s about time SOMEONE Muslim said something.

    But I hope he knows that speaking out like that will put him on someone’s hit list.

    • NewFormatSux says:

      Don’t deport the mayor, deport the liberals who don’t like what he is saying. Already in France they have arrested a comedian for ‘hate speech’

      • norman says:

        boycott deportee’ism

      • jpfitz says:

        Over reaction to two “taboo” historically emotional memories performed by two hated groups. The PC police are working overtime, especially when the jokes are performed by a Muslim.

        I wonder if a white xtian would have been treated the same.

  3. JudgeHooker says:

    Interesting how this article is tagged under ‘religion’, should be marked as ‘culture’. Oh, I forgot what blog this is….

    • Jerk says:

      Ya got that right!

      This blog is more restrictive than ISIS when it comes to posting links or anything other than simple text. That’s probably because of our DMCA laws which are controlled by the likes of the MPAA/RIAA — groups with actual money that is used for “influencing” our law making representatives. (The same people who wouldn’t think twice for apologizing for being capitalistic Islamaphobes.)

      But then, you won’t see much TECH BLOGGING here either!!! Personally, I find it damned curious how subjects like net neutrality have been almost completely ignored (a subject that’s about to royally screw everyone who pays for ISP service) and how our illustrious Dvorak staff continue with all the little bullshit stories that are clearly intended to take our attention away from these things.

      Anyone remember how Dvorak used to be some kind of tech insight genius? WTF?!

      • NewFormatSux says:

        When this site was talking about net neutrality, John Dvorak got it all wrong, saying Republicans were trying to repeal it.

  4. Ah_Yea says:

    He’s not long for this world.

  5. bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

    It would be fun to construct a similar fact pattern/issue set for “If you don’t want to accept american culture, then get the f___ out.”

    I’m thinking of religious types who won’t grant others the right to be free of their beliefs. Hey!…that is very similar.

    Only difference is the religious groups reaction to not being loved?

    Constructing the same meme based on denying science has a great appeal to me as well……. but its a bit strained.

    Morning Joe has gone on a few days now about Obama not using the term/idea of “extremist muslims” as opposed to the great majority of plain (non-terrorist) muslims. Shows a number of Dumbo commentators saying Islamic terrorist acts have “nothing” to do with Islam (near quote from Ex Gov Dean).

    I view such statements on par with the rights’ notion that we should invade somewhere to defeat terrorism, or have more guns.

    Just a big tree full of nuts.

    xxxxxxx What we need to do is isolate the Fundie States that support, fund, provide safe haven for nut ball Imans. In the Main, thats Iran and Saudi Arabia.

    Sold our soul for a barrel of oil.

    • Neville Obama, is it incompetance, self delusion or misinformation from our first Kenyan Dictator? says:

      You’d be the first to cry if couldn’t buy heat for that cold basement.

      I think its self evident since Bergdahl that Obama has made a deal to keep him safe from terrorist distraction, so he can move on his agenda of destroying America from within.

      Its the simplest explanation for his agenda, and disinformation about the terrorist threat.

    • jpfitz says:

      Hey bobbo, happy new year.

      I too have been hearing this meme that the French murders aren’t to be lumped in with the “normal Islamic terrorists”. I call bullshit. Anyone killing or prophesying radical religious terror in the name of any deity is a terrorist.

      I heard on CNN that the comparison between the Irish Catholic “terrorists” and the Islamic terrorist were not called anything but the IRA. Sure, bombing of pubs in London with civilians having a pint wasn’t terrorism.

      • NewFormatSux says:

        These guys were supported by Al Qaeda in Yemen.

        • jpfitz says:

          Exactly, or that’s what the intel is claiming. What are we to believe nowadays from our stellar and honest CIA and msm.

          I dig for the truth, sometimes wasting much time on the web. Watch the video of the French Policeman being shot point blank. The video is blurred when the gunman shoots, but at 14 seconds the video is clear. I know I will sound conspiratorial but where is the blood? And why didn’t the officer return fire?

          • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

            Good New Year to you too JP. Good opportunity for you to change your whole approach?

            As in, I’ll bite: where is the blood and why didn’t the officer return fire?===and when the answer is “We don’t know” you have run to the end of what is called a cul-de-sac. I think in France this is known as a dead end to your inquiry.

            Its interesting how many people think an unanswered question means anything, when the simple observable truth is: they mean nothing.

            So, net/net what you are left with is the policeman was shot point blank. Add this to the uncontested reports of the gunmen yelling “we are avenging the the honor of Mohamed the Profit of our Imaginary Sky God as a AQIY (Al Quaeda in Yemen) action and what you have is a firm basis to go out and arrest 54 other people for terror threats based on what they have written.

            Yes, its a New Year but nothing has changed. Hypocrisy at full tilt and Alfie raving to the point of spittle taking flight. I hope that boy never gets ebola.

            What a world. “I kill you in the name of Allah”===equals===”Nothing to do with the great religion of Islam.”

            Its like guns have nothing to do with death from gun statistics. You know==pick your own stupidity.

            Its great to be Hooman.

          • jpfitz says:

            Agreed…WE don’t have a definitive understanding of why no return fire and a very clean execution.

            Religion, the after life promise of the world.

            Politics, the puppeteers controlling the dead ends who should be helping world peace.

            And talking about guns, find the story where a white youngster “boy” is stupid about posting comments and gets bankrolled by the G. men. Kid has problems but to lead him through every hoop…what is it, get him off the street before he turns into a stupid adult?


          • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

            I agree jp. Seems like the only terrorists we hear of being caught by our Homeland Security Force spending Billions of $$ per year to erode our privacy rights is “mamma boys,” retards, and the religiously infirm ((not to do a triple knock on Alfie)) in scenarios that sure look like entrapment to me.

            Ah well. Billions on National Security instead of Millions on Mental Health.

            We make our choice every election.

            Silly Hoomans…..only one step above the retarded religiously infirmed slightly smaller minority.

            Ha, ha.

  6. Jerk says:

    Go check out a COMEDIAN who seems to have a much better handle on this than anyone ELSE! His name is Patton Oswalt (from “King of Queens”) and his view on “Sky Cake.”

    … I’d post links (like I did once before) but we all know how scared this site (and others) is of the DMCA police. (Talk about evaporating rights when a host is forced to police… er, censor blog postings.)

    • NewFormatSux says:

      Charlie Hebdo would be banned from college campuses in the US as hate speech, and the editors expelled.

      • Obama sent a message not joining world leaders and trying to empty Gitmo says:

        Lefty derision doesn’t achieve anything. Christian evangelism does, which is why they are killing us.

        But anyone could easily demolish the facade of godliness in Extremist Islam, by simply publishing the photos of the thousands of Muslims, Christians, Jews, Secularists…they kill.

        Caption them correctly.

        • ± says:

          I know it’s been a long time. But we met once before I think. LAX, 1982. You were handing out books with a partner. I politely declined.

      • jpfitz says:

        IT’S SATIRE!!! I apologize for shouting.

    • jpfitz says:

      Sky Cake, yummy, and funny.

  7. NewFormatSux says:

    Chapter 4 of Reflections on the Revolution in Europe: Immigration, Islam and the West is titled ‘Fear Masquerading as Tolerance.’

  8. Obama sent a message not joining world leaders and trying to empty Gitmo says:

    Plain talk! Where’s John McCain?

  9. Rogue says:

    McCullough, one of these days, I hope, you will publish angry views that some people have about Jews who wouldn’t assimilate.

    • LibertyLover says:

      If the Jews were cutting off people’s heads in NYC, or threatening to do so if the city council didn’t pass laws establishing Islam as a national religion, I’m sure he would.

  10. Sheesh says:


  11. Neville Obama or fifth column disinformation says:

    Making fun of the false prophet, or submerging a crucifix in a jar of urine, does nothing to further the lefty agenda.

    Nor any sane agenda. So why do it?

    • DogEars says:

      Because we can.

      • Neville Obama or fifth column disinformation says:

        Only because the remnants of Judaeo-Christian freedom remain…lefty statists are attacking that politically incorrect speech and will silence you till you can’t.

        My point, apart from soft tyranny desired by the left, its counter productive to attack the people you are trying to reason with.

        • ± says:

          Agree about your counter productive point.

          But only as regards to people who can be reasoned with. Moslems can’t be reasoned with. It is codified in the Koran that not only is it OK to lie to non-believers, it is ENCOURAGED.

          Half of them need to be destroyed. If they still won’t reason, half of the remaining should be destroyed, etc. until they decide to reason.

          • jpfitz says:

            My humane consideration at first seemed to be an epiphany. Let’s just give all the religious muslims a polygraph, then I realized the scale of the task and accounting of each individual and newly born. I am sad.

          • Neville Obama or fifth column disinformation says:

            I disagree, they can be reasoned with. For example, in Iraq we won enough hearts and minds the Sunnis rejected alQaeda…

            Obama snatched defeat from that victory.

            So secular advance was possible.

            Christianity also has its successes:

            We are successfully evangelizing Arab and Muslim nations through satellite TV programs (number one means of receiving TV in the Middle East) and seven Internet websites, receiving 1 to 2 million hits every month. We have also adapted our Mega City Media Evangelism Campaigns to the Arabic culture.

            But when the conversation begins with derision and attack, minds close and they go into self defense mode.

          • Neville Obama or fifth column disinformation says:

            It doesn’t follow I agree with unlimited immigration of muslims. There should be a moratorium on that until the Islamic Extremism these communities generation and/or bring with them, is fully understood, contained and addressed.

            Under the principle of self defense, that is defensible.

          • spsffan says:

            Why waste time. Do them all now.

      • IM72 says:

        You can also walk off a cliff. So your point is ??

        • DogEars says:

          Intentionally walking off a cliff would be illegal in many places, while the rights of free speech, freedom of expression, and freedom of the press are part of the legal foundation of the US. To paraphrase several of those old founding fathers: if freedoms are not periodically reasserted, you will lose them.

    • jpfitz says:

      “So why do it”, because in America we are free to express our distaste, no matter the subject…in almost any manner of expression. Free speech baby, it goes a long way in keeping us from becoming a backwards society. Lefty and Righty issues are moot in a free speech society.

      We are Dvorak, Viva Dvorak!

  12. jpfitz says:

    The best part of Mayor Aboutaleb F**k off video was the ad at the bottom of the video to join the NRA and get a free duffel bag. Not saying what the Mayor said wasn’t important Mc. Just ironic YT ad.

    The Netherlands has big problems with the Muslim community and now the Mayor’s head may be asked for.

    • NewFormatSux says:

      What’s ironic about it?

      • jpfitz says:

        Yeah, more on target than ironic. I can join the NRA and pack that duffel with my cold steel purchased at my LGS.

        I still see the irony. Guns didn’t help the French PO lying on the pavement.

        I grew up target shooting since I was ten years old. I still enjoy target shooting. I’ve got tinnitus from my stupidity while firing my Winchester as a teen without ear protection, and working in machine shops. My point being is I don’t blame guns, I blame mental health, poverty, drugs, religion and the plain stupid who don’t respect firearms for the negative connotations attributed to deadly weapons.

        • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

          I”m with you jp, but on topic, its ironic you don’t pick up on faulty connotations for realities associated with what you call DEADLY weapons. Not sport firearms. Or recreational instrumentalities.


          Its DEADLY

          …. and a WEAPON.

          Correct on both counts. Makes you wonder how society has come to add on any negative connotations.

          • jpfitz says:

            If everything looks like a nail a hand gun will work well as a hammer. You are right about how society tries to make firearms sexy. The AR-15 is considered the barbie doll for grown men. A tool built only to kill mankind has a connotation of being a toy to add on all sort of accessories. I don’t get the whole AR thing. I do enjoy target shooting at bulls eye targets, not silhouettes of humans.

            I read recently some police dept. had targets of real people who had mug shots taken. Somehow the info got out and one of the “targets” was pissed so the dept. stopped using the “insensitive” targets. Funny, well maybe not, but what the hell were these p.o. thinking.

          • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

            Funny, well maybe not, but what the hell were these p.o. thinking. /// Their own self made reality…… just as we all do.


  13. norman says:

    lie, i will read yer comments:

    ‘just now hear ‘spiral’ no agenda, wallah,

    well well well

    ah damm , fogot what

  14. bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

    Alfie, the agent provocateur and monotonous robot for Jesus says
    1/15/2015 at 8:42 am

    Making fun of the false prophet, or submerging a crucifix in a jar of urine, does nothing to further the lefty agenda. /// Consider it a yawp in the face of the domineering and oppressive forces in America. A Statement. So infantile in its conception, that only a Robot for Jesus would get upset. A winnowing if you will.

    Nor any sane agenda. So why do it? //// Years later, and the Robots for Jesus automatons are still seething in the recognition that they live in a FREE SOCIETY where their nonsense can be ignored and even made fun of.

    In the Middle East: you can’t put an image of Mohamed in a jar of urine.

    In the USA: you can.

    See the difference?

    • Neville Obama or fifth column disinformation says:

      Just because you can does not mean you should.

      • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

        All the religions should be made fun of until the value of being pragmatic and rational is the universal value.

        People should not be encouraged to believe in nonsense and should be made fun of when they do.

        How else….progress?

        • Neville Obama or fifth column disinformation says:

          But making fun isn’t rational or pragmatic and doesn’t accomplish your stated goal.

          In fact, its contrary to your stated goal.

          While I have precise reasons, logically sound and rational, why Mohammed is a false prophet…ridicule, derision of any sort, contradicts any hope of engaging conversation.

          • jpfitz says:

            You can’t have logical and rational thinking in the realm of God. You can only blindly have faith in a superstition to be pious.

            Making fun of faiths has been a pastime of humanity and hopefully will continue in civilized societies, stifling free speech does not lead to progress. Only free speech and questioning authority and religion will help to raise humanity out of barbarism and poverty.

  15. Jeremiah's Johnson says:

    It’s a sad day when some foreign mayor has more character and a better grasp on reality than our own elected officials. Good to see someone say it though. Too bad a few billion can’t up and say it together.

  16. norman says:

    in local shop and the guys were huddled around the shopkeepers laptop which is usually tuned to bbc iran but this day, it was a live broadcast by our city mayor. As I leave with me couple of six packs in a reused plactic bag from a different store, I fake interest and say i will listen at home and memention name of local radio station East Jutland radio (yes jylandsposten of muhamed drawing fame is local rag)

    as i leave the shop i can still faintly hear the idiot continue with his speech

  17. norman says:

    in local shop and the guys were huddled around the shopkeepers laptop which is usually tuned to bbc iran but this day, it was a live broadcast by our city mayor. As I leave with me couple of six packs in a reused plactic bag from a different store, I fake interest and say i will listen at home and memention name of local radio station East Jutland radio (yes jylandsposten of muhamed drawing fame is local rag)

    as i leave the shop i can still faintly hear the idiot continue with his speech, it is copied from a flyer sent out weeks ago by our local housing assocciation. Having nothing better to do I stood watching some nervous guy on a bit too high soap box. (it was national civil servents union rally kit container) The only two persons present who were obvious local nationals were journalists (one of conditions for entry to local journalist school is native fluency in local language) a morroccan who at 15yrs old arriving here would hardly qualify for entry, on the other hand would be ideal material for the corespondant school we have here in town. (french mate mine, his first job after graduation was in wine importer warehouse edge of town) No i am telling a lie, there were a couple of badly dressed over weight young mothers, judging by their equally badly dressed and equally overweight kids not fathered by blue eyed blonds. They passed by a couple of times too often. Couple of palistinian youths were enjoying heckling the shy man, I gave them the stink eye, and from that moment on I was a theatre prop. (everybody in town knows about first xmas as mayor he crashed his sons first visit to girlfriends parents place and looking at his shoes explained he’d nowhere else to go.

    Around here every other day ye can hear flipent remarks at the newstand like the vid above or a turkish middle aged man(curds are usually younger) saying why don’t they go and fight in their own country,(meaning palistine youth who only ever been in Beruit to vist their granny, 12% of local school kids had holidays cut short one summer. That was when we had a local national school. The arabic language childrens school ten paces from the lordmayors soapbox is still open.

    The poor shy man went on to better things, he became minster for defence just in time to bomb Lybian children and at this very moment has armed f16s flying the baltic. I’m surprised he was not in the arm in arm paris line-up.

    • Tim says:

      Tell the shop to “fuck your fuckin’ flyers” and hand them back. Those county council people are the same ones that tell people to paint their windows white before a nuclear attack…

      When the Wind Blows:

      Your local-folksy, incomprehensible diction is slipping, norman — I fear for the current status of your mental health.

      • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

        Hey Timmmmmay….

        Your continuing interaction with Norm is similar to Phydeau’s care for Pedro. Some variation of the strong leading the weak, or the caring bending to help the needy?

        All with about the same effect …. near zero. But the attraction is evidenced.

        I agree. Norm slipped up the first time that I have noticed. Almost a rational post. While much of his patois which does have a unique rhythmic feel to it, its meaning obscured if there is any.

        We must all keep the lame and infirmed in our best wishes. None with higher calling than patting them on the head.

        • norman says:

          HT was ikon for copenhagen rapid transit, ‘to hell with it’ passing Vallensbæk calmed me on way to freehaven, silly wearhouse job. one winter early a chirpy bird said in face of frouning guard ‘H T Fxxxx me’

          ye see in those days ye had a ticket seller and a ticket checker,, and some mothers took their children by bicycle to school at 0800 and worked duun mine for 29hrs pr day before they got home too

          The chirpy liver bird said, ‘Run n Hop’

          • jpfitz says:

            Timmy, I too give all a chance to have their say and take in the comment for examination, given Norm‘s language difference what was the above about? I’m not choosing you to be a translator, but help, maybe you can read Norm‘s broken English better.

          • norman says:

            I do not understand Dutch but here is my guess at what the speaker is saying:

            ‘… in the world together living.. if funies offend , well it is only the funies (I’m guessing ‘tit-titer’ were first ‘tit = to look and ‘titer’ = draftings ) and the fuck off, bit would be closer to a mild colloquialism such as regular morning commutors might greet each other.

            It reminded me of first time in copenhagen and as I pass the railway guard, not knowing if I was expected to show a ticket, another passenger rushes past, as if late. The person said ‘How is the time schedual today’ and the guard seemed to answer ‘shot to hell’ and the first persons’ quick response was , or sounded to me like ‘fuck you too’

            The little danish I understood at the time was picked-up in a small border town

            It is used to be said that there are no banned words in danish and the worst sware words were very mild

            HT (Hovedstats Transport) the railway guy had answered her ‘comming through’ by naming the initial letters of the then public utility, which is also a bit like saying d i v o r c e infornt of the kids.

            1st person comming through ‘ Good morning’

            2nd person stationary ‘not too bad, thank you for asking

            1st person parting ‘ well i suppose we will all just have to muddle along’

          • jpfitz says:

            Pretty good english Norman. I understood all.

  18. Neville Obama or fifth column disinformation says:

    I recall 1970, Istanbul Turkey, when partying with a Turk (Muslim), he loved Tom Jones.

    At the time, being a long haired leaping gnome, I didn’t agree. It upset him.

    Tom Jones is Jewish.

    Its possible we reach moderate muslims, but not if we insult them first.

    • norman says:

      summer of 1970, my budding-shop experiance was curly wire matrass factory,, i ran duun the longe mile road dual carriageway (seperate drimnagh/walkinstown Dublin ireland. was two christian brothers to 100 secondary students in class. the shame of it.


    • jpfitz says:

      You insult every Muslim by not converting to Islam. No way to put a good foot forward with the Muslim community.

  19. Jeremiah's Johnson says:

    Norman reminds me of “amanfrommars” who I see here and there on the great cloud of webtubes.

    Just speculating, but maybe “norman” is Skynet spinning up a second instance of “amanfrommars” with different startup parameters.

  20. IM72 says:

    You guys are so full of shit it saddens me. Why, I’m not sure. Why should I care what you do with your souls? Especially when you’ve made it obvious that you couldn’t care less? Anybody care to enlighten me? or perhaps just offer up more bullshit.

    • Neville Obama or fifth column disinformation says:

      Not bullshit, I give you bobbo!

      DU should bring back “caption this photo”

    • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

      The MAJORITY of people in this world, or who have ever lived, do not believe in your god. In fact, they believe YOUR god is a violation of their own belief system.

      You see the issue now?

      …………..and btw……….we do “care” whatever you might mean by that phrase. I certainly care that so many people are mindless religious.

      Just look.

      Its not revealed truth. Its mostly untrue or can’t be proven either way. Overwhelmingly, it looks like a social construct.

      I’d wonder what else you are so stupid about, but we have the entire Republican Party for that.

      • Neville Obama or fifth column disinformation says:

        I apologize Bobbo.

        It was unchristian.

        I see the issue thusly, Christians won’t permit your refusal to believe in God, be a reason not to feed you if hungry, shelter if cold, heal if sick.

        Islamic extremists will do much more than not help you in your time of need, they will end you.

        That’s the issue.

        • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

          I agree Alfie. Many of your expressed ideas posted are NOT very christian as I understand the faith.

          ……….and the Fundie Muslims are a nasty bunch even compared to christian fundies.

          something so many don’t give weight to: the extremes of an idea often define the whole.

          As in: show me a Fundie Christian and you get vows of silence, poverty, chastity and so forth with the occasional spurt of abortionist murders.

          Show me a Fundie Hindi or Buddhist and you have guys growing beards or fingernails or living in a cave.

          Show me a Fundie Muslim–and you’ve got a terrorist killing in the name of Allah.

          It is a difference among the religions, and very telling I think.

          • Phydeau says:

            Although there have been plenty of Christians killing people in the name of God throughout history. The difference is that the societies where Christianity dominates have become more “civilized” and thus have toned down the killing. Maybe if we get the societies where Islam dominates into the 21st century, they’ll tone down the killing too. :/

          • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist says:

            Anything is possible….but I hope you are open to the idea that not all religions, or any other dingbat anti-science notion is the same as any other?

            On point….that somehow the Inquisition cancels out any concern about imposition of Sharia? Muslims “used to be” more peasceful than the Arabic variety is today. They are going backwards.

            But maybe more on point….what cooled the Jets for the Christian Terrorists?

            ………………and it was WAR on them until they straightenup up and flew right. Thats what it takes when the other team is out to kill you. Convert or die. Convert…..and we kill you anyway….because you know…. the Christians did too.

            Politics, religion, culture, ego, id…team sports.

            Its Primal Man!

          • Phydeau says:

            I dunno bobbo… I really don’t know the details of Islam, how violent it is compared to Christianity. I do know that the Christian bible has some pretty intense violence in it. I also know that Islam is strong in less “civilized” societies, so how much of their violence is attributable to their religion vs their society?

            All of the “Angry Desert God” religions (Islam, Judaism, Christianity) have some pretty violent stuff in them. I’m not a big fan of any of them. :/

          • Phydeau says:

            Well looky here, someone wrote a book on whether Muslims are “different” or not:


            Here’s a quote from an interview with the author, from this article:


            Even in some areas in which we expect … I didn’t find a great deal of difference. For example, many people think that Muslims are really intent on fusing religious and political authority, that there’s really no room in Islamic thinking for independent civic sphere that is not run by religious authorities, and in which religious authority and doctrine predominate, meaning there’s little room for an independent civil society and public sphere. Well, I found in this survey data that … Muslims and Christians don’t differ very much on this question, and that most Muslims, once one controls for everything that needs to be controlled for in these statistical analyses, actually do not want to fuse religious and political authority…

            Some, of course, do. Some absolutely do. But some Christians do as well … There are many American Christians who are skeptical about dividing church and state rigorously. That’s true for many Muslims as well. But a majority of both Christians and Muslims seem to embrace at least some separation of sacred and secular in politics. That’s one finding that was perhaps surprising and also showed that Muslims are less distinctive than we might think.

            Good point about the American Christians who insist the US must be a “Christian Nation”.

          • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist and Green Energy Advocate says:

            The pervasive error made here is paying any attention at all to what “most” adherents of any ideology think. THAT is not what controls. Its the much smaller group of “leaders.”…. and its not what they think/say but rather what they do.

            You continue to miscompare Christians from 400 years ago to Muslims of today. Why do that? I do agree that people “qua people” are more the same than different across time, culture, religion and any other element.

            ………….but the issue lies in the small differences.

            Silly Hoomans…… willing to die, worse kill…… for ideas they can’t explain and don’t understand, and are made up by other people.

            What ya gonna do?

          • Phydeau says:

            What leaders? There is no pope in Islam, all the different flavors have their own leaders. And the small violent factions have their own leaders. Do we blame the overwhelmingly peaceful followers of faction X for the violent actions of faction Y? Doesn’t seem fair. We don’t blame Christians in general for the antics of Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church.

    • jpfitz says:

      Ah enlightenment, that’s your journey.

  21. Highstreet says:

    Btw: he didn’t say “F*ck off”, he said (in Dutch): “Rot toch op”. “F*ck off” is a too strong translation, it’s more like: “Get out of here”, or “Get lost”

  22. NewFormatSux says:

    Public schools in France can’t protect Jewish children, to the point where they end up attending special schools for Jews, and now they are reluctant to exhibit their religion in public.

    I know liberals hate Jews, but you would think they would realize that all non-Muslims are on the list.

    • jpfitz says:

      I was under the impression that the non-progressives hated the Jewish. You know, the guys from duck dynasty. South of the mason dixon line where most of the hate of minorities comes from.

      • NewFormatSux says:

        Just look at what Obama said the other day. Calling out Jews as the reason for the call for Obama sanctions. On no other issue did he say that people were doing it because of their ‘donors’.

        • NewFormatSux says:

          Iran sanctions, that is. Obama did not state that pressure from donors is behind objections to his policy on Cuba, Russia, Ukraine, etc.

    • Phydeau says:

      Those “conservatives” hate everyone who’s different… muslim, jew, buddhist, flying spaghetti monster, atheist. They’re equal opportunity haters.

      I think it’s basically the hatred and fear of the different/unknown… they haven’t advanced much farther than the caveman days :/

  23. Phydeau says:

    Wow, go off on vacation and you miss some interesting stuff!

    FWIW I agree with the mayor… if you can’t assimilate you should go home. However, there are a couple things to keep in mind. A lot of the European countries (France, Germany, Spain, etc.) have for years been importing “guest workers” to do work that their aging population can’t or won’t do. A lot of these guest workers are from poor mostly Muslim countries. Furthermore, there’s a fair amount of racism in these countries, and the guest workers have been treated like second-class citizens. So it may be harder to assimilate in those countries than we realize, i.e. they may want to but are being given the cold shoulder.

    Another thing I wonder about is whether people really can change, and accept new things, or whether the people who look down on brown furriners will always do so, and the only way progress is made is by them dying off and their more accepting children creating an environment of acceptance. I’ve read about the Irish being discriminated against in America in the 1860s (“No Irish Need Apply” highlights at And yet now today anti-Irish sentiment is insignificant. (I have an ancestor from a German family in the late 1800s who caused a scandal for marrying an Irish girl so I read up on it a bit.) So this struggle may resolve itself in a generation or two…

    Another issue is the decreasing birthrate among the natives of the aforementioned countries, and the higher birthrate of the guest workers, causing natives in those countries to fear “losing” their country to people not like them. The Israelis worry about it with their burgeoning Palestinian population, and of course people in America worry about it too, with the country set to become a “majority minority” eventually ( And what can you do about this? Tell the “natives” to increase their birthrate in a demographic battle against the “outsiders”? Good luck with that.

    All in all, an interesting subject.

    • NewFormatSux says:

      >and their more accepting children creating an environment of acceptance.

      Hence the call to deport the appeasing liberals.

      • Phydeau says:

        Tsk, is that the best you can do? So what are you in favor of? Deporting all suspicious looking brown people? Forcing the right kind of people to have more kids, the wrong kind of people to have fewer kids?

        Any thoughts or just reflexive quips?

        • NewFormatSux says:

          You’re the one calling for creating an environment of acceptance, after previously saying that those who insult Muslims by publishing Mohammed cartoons are free to face the consequences.

          • Phydeau says:

            Yes, I’m in favor of creating an environment of acceptance for the vast majority of Muslims who are not terrorists. I’m also in favor of anyone who mocks major world religions to expect to get grief for it. I’m also against terrorists of any religion committing violence. And your point is?

          • Phydeau says:

            pedrito, it’s always nice when you respond with some point, however wrong it may be, instead of “neener neener yer wrong wrong wrong!”

            This is not one of those times. 🙂

          • NewFormatSux says:

            Creating an environment of acceptance means killing off Jews, Muslim calls to prayer in the streets.

  24. Phydeau says:

    This Muslim fear sounded familiar, and now I realize why. You guys are the same ones so afraid of Saddam Hussein back in the first Gulf War.

    Even though Iraq was a country of only 17 million people, with no army, air force, or navy outside its borders, you wingnuts were paralyzed with fear that Saddam was going to INVADE AND CONQUER AMERICA SO WE MUST DESTROY HIM.

    Now, you’ve doubled down on the crazy. ISIS, with a few hundred or maybe a few thousand followers, with AK47s, IEDs, and maybe some RPGs, is a MORTAL THREAT TO CONQUER AMERICA SO WE MUST DO SOMETHING ANYTHING AIEEEEEE!

    Refresher: America has a military larger than the rest of the world’s militarys combined (or maybe it was larger than the top 15 combined). We have a population of over 330 million. We have a dozen aircraft battle groups, approximately 500,000 National Guard troops in the US itself, etc.

    Neither ISIS nor anyone else will be imposing Sharia law on the United States. No Sharia police is going to take anyone away for disrespecting Mohammed. Yes, terrorists can blow things up in the US, but they are criminals and we treat them like criminals.

    So go change your soiled panties, take a deep breath, and try to think clearly.

    • NewFormatSux says:

      No, it is liberals imposing sharia law on the US. There are stores now that display certifications that they are compliant with sharia law.

      • Phydeau says:

        Really, do tell. Links, please.

        • Phydeau says:

          Anyone? Bueller?

          • Phydeau says:

            Who needs evidence when its truthiness is well established? 😉

            Just like Birmingham England completely controlled by Sharia Law! OMG WTF!

          • NewFormatSux says:

            That FoxNews and CNN correction is uncalled for. nogo zones doesn’t mean police can’t go there, but that they are semi-autonomous, and law enforced on more of an ad hoc basis. Kind of like the open drug zone in The Wire 3rd season.

      • jpfitz says:

        Holy shite you really drank the cool-aid without confirming the thruthiness.

        “In response to the “Muslim Patrols”, the far-right organisation Britain First has established “Christian Patrols” in east London.”

        Pedro and NSF both hear what they want without any critical thinking.

    • NewFormatSux says:

      Yale University Press wouldn’t publish a scholarly work on the Danish cartoons, that went back thru history for depictions of Mohammed. Maybe you should tell them not to be scared of ISIS.

      • Phydeau says:

        Yes NFS, there are a lot of people out there like you pooping in their pants out of fear. It’s nice that you don’t feel alone. 🙄

        • Sheesh says:

          Sheesh, you have to be the most pathetic left wingnut troll I have ever seen on this blog.

          • Phydeau says:

            Oh how nice, another person adding nothing to the conversation but “neener neener you’re wrong wrong wrong”. Welcome. 🙂

          • NewFormatSux says:

            No, he’s not a troll. He is revealing his true self. For example, opposition to open pedophilia is anti-gay bigotry in his view. This is something I have suggested on this blog in the past, to mockery from many. Now Pheydeau reveals it as the agenda.

          • Phydeau says:

            NFS, it’s common knowledge that anti-gay bigots accuse gay people of being pedophiles. Just another sad chapter in the long story of bigotry, and you’re adding your own little contribution. Thanks. 🙄

          • NewFormatSux says:

            I started by countering that there are Muslim gays because of the known pedophiles in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
            You’re the one who called being against that anti-gay.

          • NewFormatSux says:

            That said, it is strange that it is mostly gay men calling for the lowering of age of consent.

          • Phydeau says:

            Congratulations NFS, you’re multi-ignorant, not only on Muslim issues but in insisting that gay equals pedophile. It doesn’t. Look it up outside the Fauxzone.

          • NewFormatSux says:

            You made them equal. But yes, male pedophile interested in boys is gay.

          • Phydeau says:

            Uh, sure, and male pedophile interest in girls is straight. So what’s your point?

            Though interestingly enough, the majority of men chasing after boys present themselves as straight (active heterosexual sex lives with wives and girlfriends). Strange.

        • jpfitz says:

          Hey Phydeau this should throw a wrench into the whole ISIS organization, same name military type American company. Maybe just a coincidence.

          A bunch of guys running around the desert in black masks, using American weapons we left behind for nefarious reasons. Or, just stupidity.

  25. NewFormatSux says:

    > Yes, terrorists can blow things up in the US, but they are criminals and we treat them like criminals.

    Like the guy who was working with KSM that Obama released after 6 years in prison?

    • Phydeau says:

      Your point, NFS? Are you saying Obama is in league with the SHARIA TAKEOVER OF AMERICA???? Do tell.

  26. I was thinking if after work we could grab a cup of coffee

  27. NewFormatSux says:

    While you are so worried about the treatment of Muslims, do you have any ideas about how to handle the mistreatment of Jews?

  28. bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist and Green Energy Advocate says:

    Phydeau says:
    1/22/2015 at 12:57 pm

    What leaders? /// The ones who lead more than just themselves.

    There is no pope in Islam, /// There is a grand ayatollah (can’t not think about Weird Al Yaknovich) for the Muslims in Iran…the worlds biggest sponsor of anti-western terrorism….hmmm…is that up to date? Ok…top 5.

    all the different flavors have their own leaders. /// Exactly. Note you fault the notion of groups having leaders because you think of an exception…..but immediately default to using the concept even with your exception. Amusing eh wot? Yes===sad silly hoomans organize themselves by group, and groups have leaders. Its a sad trait causing much evil.

    And the small violent factions have their own leaders. /// Time two now….so go back to what and how you thought when you posted your first thought above.

    Do we blame the overwhelmingly peaceful followers of faction X for the violent actions of faction Y? /// NAME those factions.

    Doesn’t seem fair. We don’t blame Christians in general for the antics of Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church. /// I do. He’s just the pustulant tip of the diseased corpse. (I exaggerate….but only a little.)

    I’d love to share a few beers with you Phydeau. We could resolve this fairly quickly.

    • NewFormatSux says:

      Muslims do not allow the drinking of alcohol, so Phydeau would request that you drink soda out of respect.

    • sheesh says:

      “I’d love to share a few beers with you Phydeau. We could resolve this fairly quickly.”

      Oh please do. Then quickly go get a room….sheesh.

      • Phydeau says:

        Sure why not… all y’all wingnuts are shacked up together in your little room. 😉

  29. Phydeau says:

    Read this for some interesting insights on Saudi Arabia and their connection to one (very powerful) flavor of fundy Islam (Wahhabism)

    • bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist and Green Energy Advocate says:

      Nice read. Repeating your point: “What Leaders?”

      The article didn’t cover the Whathobby side of the bifurcated Caliphate in Saudi Arabia. Probably a single strong man in charge of a politbureau small click of like minded competitor capos?

      Ha, ha…..the Vatican City of the Muslim Religion? Tally Jihad and dedicated to antiquity…….but….we can point to 3-4 dudes on the internet to show they are just like us???

      C’mon Phydeau. Look more clearly at what you have already read. What does that article tell us about your desire to be ecumenical?

      The future for the House of Saud is to return to dust. All part of the conflict looming ahead.

      What a contemplation.


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