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This “White House Advisor” has always been all over the media condemning everyone — especially gays — while praising the Lord.
Toronto Daily News – Church Leader Quits After Gay Sex, Meth Claims – US evangelist accused of using male prostitute services — Anyone who studies American history knew this sort of thing was coming. Hypocrisy reigns. As a friend of mine likes to say, “Only sinners go to church.” If this is nothing more than a smear campaign I’d say it was risky since this guy runs in some powerful circles. Let’s watch this unfold. If all this is actually orchestrated by the Democrats, then it looks as if they’ve finally found a Karl Rove rival. Who is it?
Pastor Ted Haggard, the president of the American Association of Evangelicals, has resigned due to allegations of engaging in homosexual intercourse with a prostitute.
Ted Haggard, who runs one of the largest churches in the US and regularly consults the White House on policy matters, had been paying a male prostitute to have sex with him about once a month for the past three years, a man who claims to be the male escort told a Denver radio station
Mike Jones, a male escort, alleged that Haggard, whom he knew as “Art”, paid for sex with him during trysts which had been taking place between them on an almost monthly basis over the course of the previous three years.
Further, Jones said Haggard used methamphetamine before their sexual encounters to heighten his experience.
When did the Republicans get so gay? From what I can tell this is the guy pushing evangelical religion into the Air Force Academy. Now he’s gay? What gives?
related links:
Rocky Mountain News Coverage
CNN Discussion
Click on CNN video interview with Haggard — He denies everything: says he is happily married.
Ted Haggard Homepage
Harper’s Article on America’s Most Powerful Megachurch
Religious Bullying at the Air Force Academy
More on Air Force Academy
Interview with Jones About Haggard who Apparently called himself “Art.”
Note of irony. Here’s an article where Haggard is preaching about how religion belongs in politics. Be careful what you wish for.
Update for all the doubters!: CNN interviewed Ted Haggard and he admits calling Mike Jones for a “massage” and to “buy meth.”
Yet another update:
For those who worry about anyone “judging” Pastor Ted — his church just fired him. Here’s the .pdf of its press release.
Last update, we promise!: Haggard admits being “guilty of sexual immorality” and stated, “I am a deceiver and a liar.”
Haggard is a graduate from Oral Roberts University.
It’s hard to believe, alright. And I’m pretty shocked.
“The premier moral and political force is unmasked as a philanderer, hypocrite, liar, and very possibly a crook.
The nation’s most recognizable cleric/politician has been caught knocking up an aide; has been caught lying about it; and is suspected of supporting his auxiliary family with crates of cash taken from organizational accounts. He continued to be a presidential advisor even after being caught. He has topped the gaudy display with an act of contritional blitzkrieg best measured by stopwatch and laughmeter.” But enough about Jesse Jackson. http://tinyurl.com/yb5msd
35. Oh, phew. For a moment I thought someone said it had something to do with being a conservative.
RBG
I still don’t understand the Jekyll & Hyde aspect of these guys… [spill-over from my comment #25]
The public “face” of Foley [ Dr Jekyll ] pushing laws to protect kids from pedophiles… [Foley’s inner Mr Hyde].
Ditto with the Catholic priest sexual-abuse scandals.
Ditto with Jimmy Swaggart & Jim Bakker…
Possibly ditto with Haggard?
Is the “evil” only too real to them, because they live with it constantly – inside their own heads???
#55 doug
Sorry chief! You are wrong on both counts Fingerprinting is and “art form” not a science. It is a widely known and greatly mis-understood fact.
Polygraphs are 100% subjective and hold 0 value.
I never speak against things I am guilty of myself. If I were to do that I would freely admit it when I was doing so.
Angel Wrong: “And we all know how much americans love people who claim that they have rehabilitated so he will be pardoned by his followers and proceed as if nothing has ever happened. ”
Hey Angel, I dont know about everyone else here, but I am a little tired of your “America” bashing. The truth is we are trying to fix this. I beleive you said you were from Venezuela or Paraguay on some other post. Well I have been to your little sh*thole of a country. It aint that great.
Not too surprising, seeing that Christianity is basically a gaywod cult anyway. Anybody who prefers silly fairy tales to reality is sort of effeminate in the first place.
What motivates people like Haggard to be pastors and vocally condemn other gay people? Was he caught up in the big lights of Christian rock-star stage life? Addicted to the power wielded through his false identity as a moralizing holy man? He obviously can’t truly believe that he’s making the world a better place by spouting hatred and nonsense, given that he is gay himself, with a penchant for debauchery.
#65, I’m American, and Angel has a point. This country has become more and more religious right-wing bible belt “Jesus Save Me!” Schlock. Every time I deal with Christians, I get the overwhelming feelings of embarassment and anger, because they act like redneck fools. Ever been to Europe? Things aren’t perfect there either, but the people come across as much more educated, and don’t throw the Bible at you for believing in science over fantasy.
Christians are just as bad as every other religion, they all have their ups and downs. People seem to fear Muslims nowadays. There was a time when Chrisitans were feared too. The hypocrisy is as old as the religion itself. The leaders, be they popes or “evangalists” have always had a “do as I say, not as I do” attitude. It’s that pretentious, arrogant stance that makes intelligent people angry at the way religious institutions control the masses. Especially evangalists. I hate thofe f*ckers.
Any Christians reading this: You scare me. You claim holiness, kindness, and decency, when one of your leaders is a liar. And not just a regular liar. Being gay is fine, but being gay and condemning gays is another thing altogether. I don’t get how they (followers) can stick it out, priest after priest implicated in molestations (don’t you think thats wierd??!! Shouldn’t they be the last people to molest? Yet hundreds, if not thousands of them have). It’s sick the way christians continually turn their backs, or worse, begin to accept that religious right do-gooders can get away with sexual crimes.
On 65. When calling another country a “shithole”, it’s a diplomatic best practice to narrow down the particular “shithole” in question. This is done to avoid having the superfluous “shithole’s” residents think we are indiscriminate goons. This also reduces the chance when traveling abroad, of people peeing in your coffee.
#64. If you have some proof that fingerprinting is not a science, I am sure the entire criminal justice system – including myself – would be keen to know it. I do know that the subjectivity in fingerprinting extends to how many “points” of comparison one needs to make a match, but there is some consensus on that, and dissident voices.
And in the 100 or so years of fingerprint analysis, there has never been shown to be two identical fingerprints on two different people.
Having already read about the sorry saga of Ted Haggard, the comments I find most interesting are those by Right Wingers trying to shift the topic to the evilness of lawyers, liberals, and (strangely) Jesse Jackson. Provides a revealing look at their inability to defend the behavior of their own.
#70 and #64
Not so sure if this discussion belongs in this fabulous thread. But I couldn’t help adding a little. Besides, it’s fun to finally have some practical use of podcast listening.
Way back in March I listened to Dr. Karl’s GMIS about this very subject. His take on it were that fingerprints have been held as “free of error”, and he meant this is wrong. Everything else in science comes with a certain margin of error, but not fingerprints.
Simon Cole is supposed to have found 22 cases where use of fingerprints have been wrong. And conviction of innocent people have been the result. Read on at http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/09/050913124509.htm
or get the podcast if you’re interested.
I doubt this will help Haggard on his almost certain trip to Phoenix, but it’s interesting never the less 8)
71. Right. And the following are not the original topic-shifters worthy of a response:
0. “and regularly consults the White House on policy matters,”
3 “and the House Republicans on… uhhhh..”
33. “I wonder if this will affect conservative Christian turnout in the upcoming elections?”
41″… he knows this guy is what most Republicans represent and has been caught being a hypocrite. most Republicans are hypocrites.”
43. “Why are so many republicans hypocritical sado masochistic homosexual ass tweaking pedophile drug users? ”
46. “Fact: Ted Haggard is(was) a weekly advisor to President Bush”
59. “I wonder if Haggard gets his usual spot on the weekend conference call with Bush, Rove and Cheney?”
RBG
#72, thank you Roger, you saved me the effort of supporting “J”s contention. Sorry doug, sad but true, fingerprints are not science anymore then cooking is a science. More and more courts are insisting that fingerprint evidence be admitted as an opinion and not conclusive evidence.
Wow, that actually is his story. I thought Eideard was joking. I figured when he said it was partly true that he was leaving out the drugs to avoid prosecution, but instead it’s the other way around. I’d say his story is a fake.
“Massage therapy” eh? Hmm, it’s so crazy it just might work.
#73, RBG, So what is your point?
0 & 3, He consults with Bush and other Republican leaders. That is part of the reason he has so much stature and this story is so important.
33, will his transgressions effect the elections? Haggard has made many political sermons as well as met repeatedly with Republican leadership. His fall from grace and subsequent admission is sure to influence some supporters and like minded people.
41, Haggard is a hypocrite and is a leader in the conservative movement. He wants to shape policy.
43, yes, why are so many Republicans ass tweaking… Notice, the question isn’t “Why are all Republicans…”. Just why are so many of these upright citizens sex fiends?
46, a true statement. See the first response for 0 & 3
59, good question. Will Bush welcome his Cristian friend back into the fold or cast him out.
All these points are relevant and discuss Haggard and his predicament. In case you missed it, a leading conservative, religious, Republican consultant has been accused of the very things he decries so often in his sermons. Being off topic would be something like comparing Bush to Hitler. No matter how many similarities there are, we are discussing something else.
I’ve met this guy, and during a couple of years when I had to live in the springs for business, I saw some otherwise smart & fun folks get sucked into his church. (I’m talking young Ph.D’s & bartenders here.) I went to the services a few times & I can understand why. Certainty is a powerful drug.
Thank God I’m living in Denver now. The Springs is a bit too much… I worked with several gay activist groups during my time there, and let me tell you, the rumors about Haggard are not new. They’ve been circulating for at least a couple of years now. I didn’t quite believe them at the time… I was obviously wrong.
I’m curious about how New Life will change after the full details come out. They’ll probably ratchet up their anti gay rhetoric after six months or so.
Though it seems mean to say, I’m glad to see this guy finally taken down for the hypocrite that he is.
#9 – Wrong. That still doesn’t cut it. If it’s standard church practice to temporarily step down pending an investigation then no church would ever be functional. High profile people get accused everyday. If this is all it takes, then maybe to get religious organizations to shut down around the country is to just step up the accusations, if they’re real or not.
A smart way to probably go about it is to just deny it, continue on with your job and then sue the accuser for libel/slander and go on with your life. This is of course if you’re 100% innocent. If you’re not innocent, then you do what is happening here. You spin it like these people are doing. And of course, you’re helping with the spin Brenden.
#11 – thanks, great video – “Root of All Evil”
There’s nothing new about the “closet deviants waving flags” crowd, and there is certainly nothing new about flag-waving closet deviants with close White House ties. For a reminder of an earlier example, see http://tinyurl.com/y8424t
#74. I fully agree that any fingerprint tester can make an error in a match, as is what happened in the Madrid train bombing case. any scientific testing is subject to errors.
my point is that, at its root – no two people have the same fingerprint – fingerprinting is a science. the same simply cannot be said with polygraph testing, which is why it is excluded from trials. It tends to “overpersuade” juries, and can turn a trial from a quest for truth into an argument about the reliability of polygraphs.
For those of you that found my earlier post confusing, let me break it down a bit for you. Hypocrisy is an unforgivable sin, if unrepentant, as it harms other people greatly while increasing the political power of the hypocrite. Hypocrisy and fear of change were at the root of Jesus’s execution, so it is ironic that our “christian” leaders are acting like modern Pharisees by being so terribly hypocritical. Any person who caused so much suffering as this man while holding himself to a much lower standard is going to Hell, if there is any justice in this world.
I have to note, that if the forces of reason are going to win this battle against the know-nothings, we are going to have to learn to use the language of faith as fluently as the language of reason, as our opposition has no leg to stand on in either respect. It is only through ignorance of their scriptures that they can feel licensed to behave in this fashion. “The truth will set you free,” after all, and they have no concern for the truth. And, finally, to #68; don’t let the slanderers of Christ succeed in convincing you that all those who follow his words are anti-truth, violent hypocrites. Indeed, anyone who actually listens to Christ rather than listening to their pastor to his exclusion will be none of these things, but the media focusses upon the false “christians”, for the simple reason that the converse of that statement is true as well; “Lies will enslave you.” The true masters of media are those who want power and control over all else, and the fundies are complicit in the enslavement of the American people.
#82, doug,
How do you know that no two people have the same fingerprints? Can you point to a study by an independent researcher that demonstrates that there are no two fingerprints the same? What is your level of discrimination in determining a match or similarity?
Fingerprints have never been adequately demonstrated with any scientific accuracy to be different. There aren’t even common standards on fingerprint identification. Science requires empirical evidence, not anecdotal recalling or coincidences. While it is true that at some level there may be some discrimination, so called “experts” have no standard of examining on that level. Sorry, but fingerprint identification has yet to meet the level of science.
http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/%7eid/bbc.html
http://www.issues.org/20.1/mnookin.html
#84. That is, of course, the irony of fingerprint testing – if no two fingerprints are ever found to be identical, there is no control group to compare the tests against (ie two people with identical fingerprints), which is one of the bedroks of science. I would respectfully suggest that sufficient anecdotal evidence has been compiled, since no two fingerprints have ever been shown to be identical, so the burden of proof should be on those who maintain that fingerprints CAN be identical.
And yes, there are differences about how many points of comparison are needed. I imagine one could find similar controversies in other sciences, with some practitioners demanding more corroboration than others. That does not make it not a science.
Compared to polygraph testing, where the test itself is higly unreliable, fingerprinting is not nearly as controversial.
As with much forensic science, the desire for a given outcome (ie to match the fingerprint to the suspect) corrupts the process in many cases. The lack of blind testing in many crime labs (especially those associated with law enforcement) is also a scandal.
I think we are just going to wind up agreeing to disagree.
77. I’ll spell it out for you as a public service.
With many examples, I’ve exposed the hypocrisy that “Right Wingers” and I had deviously “shifted the topic” (71) from Haggart’s misconduct to politics when clearly the liberal posters had already done so numerous times.
I’ve demonstrated the fallacy, with a similar Jesse Jackson example, that misconduct and hypocrisy shown by a religious leader who advises the president is representative purely of followers of a conservative viewpoint – however much liberals would like to believe this. (eg: my examples.)
And thus the idea that the topic was shifted because of the “inability to defend the behavior of their own” (71) is proven ludicrous.
I can’t make it any more plain for you than that.
RBG
RBG,
If I understand your point…
Nope, you are wrong again… The problem is, the example we have seen from Democrats are all normal sexual expressions. Straight man on woman sex, between consenting adults. Yes, it is adulterous, but still within the realm of legal sexual conduct. On the other hand, when Republicans have sex scandals, the very legality of the conduct, pedophilia, soliciting, or spousal abuse, are sex crimes. For normal non republican christianist americans they have criminal penalty. They are not morally equivalent. The claim that they are is ludicrous.
Also, you seem to miss the irony. An advocate for child safety on the internet, is a child sex predator. An opponent of gay sexual orientation is a closeted gay. (and on and on into areas that are not as sexy as these two crystal clear examples) Also, the democrats haven’t spent the last 30 years claiming they are morally superior to their opponents, only that we offer better governance. Wana talk about governance? No? Then sex scandals it is.
#83) “If the forces of reason are going to win this battle against the know-nothings, we are going to have to learn to use the language of faith as fluently as the language of reason, as our opposition has no leg to stand on in either respect.”
How ’bout this? I tried to incorporate ‘science and reason’ and the ‘language of faith’
Every 30 minutes or so (that’s when Mickey’s big hand is on the “6”) try to breath through your nose. Breathing exclusively through one’s mouth, as some evangelicals do, tends to dry out the delicate tissue of the upper respiratory system increasing the risk that tiny demons sent from the bowels of Hell by the Prince of Darkness himself will invade your body and force your brain to generate neurons that will communicate with each other, engender actual cognitive abilities and possibly even result in your IQ exceeding room temperature. It’s all spelled out word for word in the Unchanging Holy Word of God Bible. If I recall correctly, it’s right after the part about the consumption of shellfish being an abomination and before the instructions on how to make a fuzzy bunny animal sacrifice generate an odor that is pleasing to God. If you get to the part that says handicapped people cannot approach the altar of God, you’ve gone too far. Go back to where it says anyone with a “flat nose” must stay away from the altar of God and look for the line about what to do if you get your “seed of copulation” on yourself, your clothes, or your partner and go from there. You’ll find it, I’m sure. Just keep looking. Your salvation is at stake and we wouldn’t want you to be tortured for all of eternity in the fires of Hell because you couldn’t follow a few simple instructions.
-Dave
Dave, my point is that all of that crap was what was -repudiated- by Christ, and when these people want to rule people by Leviticus, not only do they willfully ignore large parts of it, but they also ignore everything the guy they name their religion after actually said. Please, do me a favor, and skip straight to Luke, and read that through. These are principles they willfully violate, and it is a weakness worth exploiting, unless you are so snobbishly above any faith as to think it nothing but asinine legalism.
TAKE THE FINGERPRINT DEBATE TO THE CAGE MATCH FORUMS..they will be deleted if continued here.
–The management
Maybe he was just getting his COLON massaged, I’ll bet they could find some fingerprints in there.