So the judge is implying they would have died anyway without being tased? CSI aside, I realize it may be difficult to determine exact cause of death every time, but cripes! Makes you wonder if the Taser company contributes to coroner and judge reelection coffers. Or is that too cynical?
Judge orders all references to ‘Taser’ stricken from medical examiner’s reports
A Summit County Common Pleas judge ordered the county medical examiner to delete any reference that Tasers contributed to the deaths of three Ohio men.
All three men were in an ‘agitated’ state and ‘on drugs’ when police officers shot them with Tasers, and the judge ordered their deaths be ruled ‘accidental’ also that any reference to “homicide or “electrical pulse stimulation” should be deleted from death certificates and autopsy reports.”
Five sheriff’s deputies had been indicted on charges related to the death of one of the men, who also had a history of mental illness. The judge further ordered that man’s death be ruled as “undetermined” and to “delete any references to homicide and the death possibly being caused by asphyxia, beatings or other factors.”
Here’s a report on this that makes an interesting point:
[Coroner] Kohler’s rulings were controversial because few coroners have said the Taser was a factor in deaths. Other coroners typically cite other contributing factors, such as drug use, heart disease and cardiac arrhythmia due to illegal drug use.
The links say in essence that there is no credible expert testimony that indicates a taser can contribute to the death of a person. If that burden has to be met, then including it as a possible contributer is wrong. That will change when the “evidence” changes.
Now, you and I may think its pretty obvious that being shocked with 80,000 volts 4 times might contribute something to something, but there still is no proof that second hand smoke, or first hand smoke for that matter, causes cancer. Just a coincidence. And the law moves on.
Soon, only criminals will have tasers. That aside the report should read as it was written. That may reflect badly on the officers or it may make the coroner look incompetent. Judges shouldn’t tell people how to do their jobs.
The Taser manufacturer advertises heavily to law enforcement agencies that they have never lost a liability case and employs huge legal resources to defend that. You can be sure that they intervened in this case.
I just wanted to point out that this Uncle Dave’s posting is a follow-up to the original posting back in 2006.
My real concern here is that a judge is saying he knows better than an expert in the subject matter. Where do their powers end? Is this an abuse of discretionary powers? I would think that someone in that position would be more aware that they are not experts in every single field on the planet as they call it the “practice of law” not the ‘practice of medicine’ or ‘practice of everything’.
Well, this is the RepubliKKKan TORTURE REGIME, so they have to protect their TORTURE WEAPONS !!! No change until we have REGIME CHANGE here at home !!! If you value the Constitution and the Bill of Rights ***NEVER VOTE REPUBLIKKKAN AGAIN*** !!!
I’m a cop and I’ve been “tased” around 6 times. I’ve never suffered any after effects. One of our instructors volunteered to for a 100 second cycle (the normal cycle is 5 seconds). It was painful but again, not problems. The reality is if you’re healthy the Taser won’t cause you any problems. On the other hand, if you’re on drugs/alcohol or in an agitated state or you have heart/respiratory problems it could be an issue. The question we have to ask is, what is the alternative? If someones resisting arrest and you don’t have a Taser, then your choices are limited. Essentially, you have to wrestle with them which can result in a positional asphyxia death or using impact weapons (batons) on them. I can guarantee injuries under those circumstances.
MIFW – Why not just blow them away with your Glock 9mm? At least that way you’d be held accountable for the death.
The way Tasers are abused, shooting somebody who’s mildly misbehaving instead of saying “HEY YOU, STOP THAT”, they should be abolished.
Anyone who would volunteer for a 100-second tasering should probably either be put in a rubber room or get some serious counseling. Is that guy like die Weisse Engel from “Marathon Man”??
#1, bobbo,
You are just plain wrong.
The links say in essence that there is no credible expert testimony that indicates a taser can contribute to the death of a person.
The coroner in this and several other cases HAVE asserted that the taser was either the or a contributing factor.
there still is no proof that second hand smoke, or first hand smoke for that matter, causes cancer. Just a coincidence.
Wrong again. There is plenty of evidence that tobacco smoke causes cancer. The only problem is that smokers deny the validity of the studies.
What about the poor Polish guy in Vancouver Canada
that was tasered at that Canadian airport and then had the police jump on him
Guess the same was true for him too
I believed the Warren Report and the Sept 11 report as well
Mister Mustard: I was referring to legitimate use of the Taser (or any other weapon for that matter). Any device/weapon issued to a police officer has potential for abuse. I can’t speak for other agencies but I know that mine doesn’t tolerate excessive force. We can’t use a Taser for someone who is “mildly misbehaving. They have to be threatening or using force against the officer.
The 100 second tasing was part of a test/trial to prove that the Taser isn’t harmful. I would agree though that the volunteers “aren’t right.” I did a couple of 5 second “rides” with the X26 and I don’t want no more.
10. Saper Winnipeg
Yeah, what about that poor polish guy in Vancouver Canada who was tasered?
Canadian stun gun death
http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=14564
“Last year, a coroner’s jury found that Bagnell had died from a “restraint-associated cardiac arrest as a result of acute cocaine intoxication and psychosis.”
The Province, Tues. April 29, 2008 pg. A13
Exactly reflecting #8 Mike’s comments.
So in the end, they should have used more taser, not less.
But I guess we can always choose to believe only the coroner’s reports that are most consistent with our personal political views.
RBG
#7&11: You are probably in great physical shape with no health problems. I bet you can withstand a whole lot of things that someone with any number of medical conditions couldn’t.
There are two key points to this story to keep in mind.
First, would these people have died had they not been tased. If they answer is no, then the Taser was a contributing factor in their death and should have been left on the report as a ‘possible’ contributing factor.
Second, why is it any business of a judge to change a coroner’s report like that? It is the coroner’s job (as the medical expert) to say what did and might have contributed to death, not a judge.
You have to question the motives here. Don’t forget, this change came about because the Taser company sued.
Uncle Dave: I don’t disagree that the health of the person who is subject to at Taser is important. I also question whether a judge has the authority to order a ME to change his “opinion.” I wasn’t really addressing those points, I was only trying to point out that the Taser is a weapon and is potentially dangerous but if you take it away from officers, which some want to do, then what choices are they left with? I should also point out that many of the people that we (the cops) have to tussle with are in bad physical condition. It’s the nature of the world they live in. It’s difficult, if not impossible, for an officer to determine the health status of a person in the few seconds he or she has to decide to use force or not.
I don’t disagree that the Taser should be considered a factor in the death, I just don’t think it is the proximate cause.
>>I was referring to legitimate use of the
>>Taser (or any other weapon for that matter).
MIFW, if cops only used their weapons and their authority in the ways they should, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. Hey, even a broken broomstick, when poked up Abner Louima’s ass with enough enthusiasm, can be fatal.
The point is, law enforcement officers use tasers with WAAAAAAAY too much vigor, often substituting shocking someone with 80,000 volts for saying “Hey you, stop that!”.
If the fucking shock killed the guy, it’s no different from putting a 9mm slug through his heart. If lethal force was warranted, no prob. If not, those bastards should rot in prison. With broken broomsticks being poked up their asses with vigor.
#15: Interesting point you made in there MM. With all the deaths from Tasers, perhaps using one needs to be relabeled as being ‘lethal force.’ For anyone who objects, it’s possible to shoot someone without killing them, but that’s labeled lethal force because it ‘could’ kill them. It doesn’t happen as often, but using a Taser can be lethal, too.
I interviewed for PR position at the Taser company…they said this was a PR “issue” with the media – needless to say, I passed on the opp.
“As of mid-April, 68 wrongful-death or injury lawsuits have been dismissed or judgments entered in favor of Taser, according to the company. The company has not lost any product-liability lawsuits.”
Of course, what business is it of anyone’s to question or change a judge’s findings?
RBG
16 UD: Since physical force can lead to death, I don’t think you would label that “lethal force” either. Besides, police shoot with the expectation that death will likely follow. No police force, afaik, shoots to wound. There’s a real danger of missing, and possibly hurting someone else.
RBG
Tazers can turn people into wookies!
http://www.break.com/index/tazing-chewbacca.html
When you have Darth Vader chasing you, tell me it’s not dangerous!
If you Tazer someone in the head, I’m certain that would kill them. Who knows if these cops are aiming too high. And you know that eventually the career bad guys are going to get smart and where some kind of wire mesh vest that bleeds off the shock. So it will only work on the occasionally routy citizen. What an excuse to tazer people. To meet some quote, to justify the budget for them.
And you know, Tazer sounds so much like Phazer. But even Star Trek’s famous toy had multiple settings. Where as Tazers can manage anything but Off, and Stun/Kill. What scientific body decided the safe voltage level for these things? Seems like it’s rounded off too high, to have been arrived at by some standards committee. And wouldn’t they have pushed for a second setting for smaller and older people?
People that think tasers don’t cause death are not looking at the trail of dead bodies.
Why don’t we check out the taser on Dick Cheney. It would be a test of evil Vs evil.