Could these Jews hold the key to settling Middle East strife or are they living in a fantasy? I have to say their’s is a position I’ve never heard of. At least from Jews.
Why are Jews at the ‘Holocaust denial’ conference?
A handful of Orthodox Jews have attended Iran’s controversial conference questioning the Nazi genocide of the Jews – not because they deny the Holocaust but because they object to using it as justification for the existence of Israel.
[…]
Some of them belong to Neturei Karta (Guardians of the City), a group of a few thousand people which views Zionism – the movement to establish a Jewish national home or state in what was Palestine – as a “poison” threatening “true Jews”.A representative, UK-based Rabbi Aharon Cohen, told the conference he prayed “that the underlying cause of strife and bloodshed in the Middle East, namely the state known as Israel, be totally and peacefully dissolved”.
In its place, Rabbi Cohen said, should be “a regime fully in accordance with the aspirations of the Palestinians when Arab and Jew will be able to live peacefully together as they did for centuries”.
Neturei Karta believes the very idea of an Israeli state goes against the Jewish religion.
They are a bunch of crackpots from a group by the name of Neturei Karta who believe that Israel has no right to exist as a country because only the messiah can create a state of israel. They are more than happy for the jews to live subjugated under the boot of other nations. The constantly ally themselves with enemys of Israel and were the only jews allowed into the cabinet of Yassir Arafat.
Here is some more info about them
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/nk.html
I also have if you would like audio of their ringleader Dovid Weiss speaking at UC Irvine during last years Holocaust in the Holy Land week, a week put on by the UCI Muslim Student Union and filled with Anti-Semitic Speakers.
To quote:
In its place, Rabbi Cohen said, should be “a regime fully in accordance with the aspirations of the Palestinians when Arab and Jew will be able to live peacefully together as they did for centuries”.
Yes, because you know how good Islamic extremists, which are as plentiful as sand in the middle east, are perfectly willing to let those of a different belief system co-exist. lol.
The fact is that the Jews have been screwed either way. They were screwed by Hitler when they didn’t have a “country”, and they are screwed today because they do.
I would gladly place a large bet that regardless of any piece of land, most Islamists would gladly kill any Jew because they just plain hate them. With an ungodly hate – it has nothing to do with “Zion”, and everything to do with “They are Jews”.
3,
Virulent Islam appeared after Israel and the rest of the Middle East was partitioned by the West. Look back to 1919 and you’ll see the start of your present. Only by correct the root causes can you cure a problem.
And it’s true. Christians, Muslims and Jews DID live together for hundreds of years. There was that little Genghis Khan problem, but he was a born again, so it’s expected.
Wow, I would have thought the response for this would be positive. Sounds like the voice of sanity to me. Hey lets try to do something to help both Jews and Palestinians, maybe promote peace. Naw, war and strife is better, at least MUCH more profitable.
Christian and Muslims both have extremists. Why can’t the Jews? And you have to be an extremist to deny the purposeful killing of millions of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, communists, and other on the Nazi shit list.
They are more than happy for the jews to live subjugated under the boot of other nations.
Really? They are? Jews must have their own country or else they’re subjugated under the boot of others?
I guess the Christians better form their own Christian-only country, and FAST, so they can quit being subjugated under the boots of others. Ditto for Hindus, Buddists, Wiccans, etc etc and so on and so on.
Fusion: What I took from the article is not denial of the holocaust by the Jews, but a move away from Zionism, and towards a reconciliation with Palestinians. I dont see this as extremist at all.
“not because they deny the Holocaust but because they object to using it as justification for the existence of Israel.”
7,
Hitler HATED Commies… more than anyone else. And it’s no surprise that at the time, the Commies were thought to be a Jewish institution.
A few fighting the Hard headed zealots…What a fight.
If you’ve ever studied Jewish history — the last century in particular — you’d know that Zionism as a political phenomenon was nothing more than a minor trend up until WW2. In fact, outside of the Warsaw ghetto uprising, Zionists played little part in the resistance to Nazi oppression.
The encouragement — and facilitation — of the Zionist state was agreed upon by most countries via the United Nations after the war and, only then, did it become the central “solution” for Jewish refugees. Approximately 2/3’s of Jewish refugees resettled in Palestine — with and without permission from the Imperial Brits who still considered it their own.
Named (#5),
Read the history of the Ottoman Empire and maybe you’ll reconsider that comment!
13.
The Ottoman Empire was, in principle, tolerant towards Christians and Jews, but not polytheists, in accordance with Sharia law. Forced conversion is counter to Sharia law, and was not standard practice. Though far short of modern standards, Ottoman tolerance was particularly striking compared to the contemporary situation in Europe, where wars were fought between Protestants and Catholics, heretics were routinely executed, and Jews were frequently expelled and sometimes even massacred. Nonetheless, the tolerance was reported to be conveniently ignored when new circumstances seemed to suggest a different course of action.
The state’s relationship with the Greek Orthodox Church, was largely peaceful, and recurrent oppressive measures taken against the Greek church were a deviation from generally established practice. The church’s structure was kept intact and largely left alone but under close control and scrutiny until the Greek War of Independence of 1821–1831 and, later in the 19th and early 20th centuries, the rise of the Ottoman constitutional monarchy, which was driven to some extent by nationalistic currents, tried to be balanced with ottomanism. Other churches, like the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, were dissolved and placed under the jurisdiction of the Greek Orthodox Church. On the other hand, the empire often served as a refuge for the persecuted and exiled Jews of Europe; for example, following the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492, Sultan Beyazid II welcomed them into Ottoman lands.
Yep. Looks pretty good! 1915, the massacre of the Armenians and the Assyrians were the true low points. Of course, the emipre was done then and was going through it’s death throws.
It’s from wikipedia, so you can change it if you like.
Named,
You should check sources other than Wikipedia… How about Efraim Karsh or Yahya Armajani? Again, you tacitly admit some issues, but they were Jihadists bent on military rule through the words of the Koran… Not a Muslim? Then pay a tax and be a 2nd class citizen. Won’t pay the tax or accept 2nd class citizenship? Then die by the sword.
Yep, real pleasant folks.
Although, I do grant you many examples in Europe during the Ottoman’s where co-existence occurred…
Ethanol,
During the past, ignorance was our greatest strength. We’ve learned nothing in the present and will repeat it in the future.
Named,
Avoiding a rebuttal, eh?
Why just focus on the Big Three?
Every single religion or devotion has upstart clerics/rabbis/fsm-spaggeti-eaters that deviate from the norm.
Cant we just drop the whole religion thing and devote that brainpower and blood & sweat & tears to something that has some actual purpose & value, instead of this hokey useless crap.
Like… world peace (yes, unlikely) or the population of the moon & mars – or cleaning the planet up – etc.
And when have the Palestinians ever been “conciliatory” to the Jews?
You’re holding the Jews to different standards than you hold the Palestinians – that’s why it’s hard not to take the claim “I’m not anti-Jewish, I’m just anti-ZIonist” with anything but a huge lump of salt.
#17,
In #13, you suggested named read some history. I didn’t understand why you suggested that. His comments were fair and accurate. So when he reposted a more elaborate response, you poo pooed that with some names I am unfamiliar with.
You sir, have failed. You are making unfair assertions and haven’t even had the courtesy of backing them up. named hasn’t avoided making a rebuttal. There isn’t anything worth rebutting.
#18 – I especially like the rabid peaceniks that’ll kill you to prevent you from committing violence. How come you never hear about militant Buddhists though?
Mr. Fusion,
Actually when named made the false statement in #5, “Virulent Islam appeared after Israel and the rest of the Middle East was partitioned by the West”, the burden of proof was his and he failed. Wikipedia provides a superficial, summary of the Ottoman Empire. The history is detailed and scholars, a small sample of which I named, agree that something we might call Virulent Islam was the founding of the Ottoman Empire.
Ergo, Virulent Islam did NOT appear after Israel and the rest of the Middle Eas was partitioned by the West.
You sir, have failed, as has Named.
I strongly recommend anyone who is interested in this subject listen to the most recent episode of Dan Carlin’s Common Sense podcast. If he makes as much sense to you as he does to me you will probably decide to subscribe, as he is a welcome relief from the ‘party lines’ many other podcasts dispense.
Among the other podcasts I listen to regularly are “This Week in Tech, ” “Free Talk Live,” (but I can only handle that once or twice a week), and Bill Maher’s “New Rules.”
The only solution for the Israel region, is to become a place for innovation, in terms of quality of life for everyone, social protection for everyone, democracy for everyone. Find another name, forget about nationalisms, religions and other past differences.
The primary goal should be for the region to become a place for the good life for anyone who wants to live there. That region has got to be even more visionnary than other regions, and quickly become a role model for the positive melting pot that has to become all other regions of the world.
Some palestinians were forced to have those Jews come live in their nabourhoods, or they were forced to move out to ghettos? It might be, but truth is most people had crappy lives 50 years ago, and in any ways things have urgently got to change not only for this certain kind of poor populations (palestinians and israellis) but for all the poor in the world. So ultra positivism and the belief for the potential of human civilisation to do good is the only solution.
Ethanol,
Any empire behaves in the same way. Those that lead, rule with an iron fist. It’s only after the creation of America that rights were bestowed on all the people. You can go back further into history and see how much lower we were. That’s exactly what you did.
In terms of history, you can slice off the moments when the real fundmental shifts happened… The Reformation, the Enlightenment, The American Constitution. These are the frameworks which we have to compare human existence to. Not to how bad another empire was in the past.
Why pick the Europeans and the West as an Example? Because most of the Jews in Israel are from Europe. They are almost all Ashkenazi jews, so a European example is best.
What the Jews suffered under a Nazi regime is almost exactly what the Jews are perpetrating on the Palestinians. Checkpoints, paperwork, no crossing borders, killings… It’s shameful.
And the Jews should ABSOLUTELY be held to a higher standard than the Palestinians. Afterall, the palestinians didn’t operate the gas chambers. It was the White Ango Saxon Protestants. Yes, the WASPS didn’t have to give up their land. The Palestinians did.
Now, read these questions and then find your answer in the Ottoman Empire… Or Byzantium, or Roman, or however far back you want to go to ignore modern history…
Ten questions to the Zionists
by Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl ZT”L
Dean of Nitra Yeshiva
1.
IS IT TRUE that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, if they would relinquish all their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that:
a) none of the deportees travel from Spain to Palestine; and
b) all the deportees be transported from Spain to the USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with entry visas to be arranged by the Jews living there; and
c) $1000.00 ransom for each family to be furnished by the Agency, payable upon the arrival of the family at the Spanish border at the rate of 1000 families daily.
2.
IS IT TRUE that the Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey received this offer with the clear understanding that the exclusion of Palestine as a destination for the deportees was based on an agreement between the Gestapo and the Mufti.
3.
IS IT TRUE that the answer of the Zionist leaders was negative, with the following comments:
a) ONLY Palestine would be considered as a destination for the deportees.
b) The European Jews must accede to suffering and death greater in measure than the other nations, in order that the victorious allies agree to a “Jewish State” at the end of the war.
c) No ransom will be paid
4.
IS IT TRUE that this response to the Gestapo’s offer was made with the full knowledge that the alternative to this offer was the gas chamber.
5.
IS IT TRUE that in 1944, at the time of the Hungarian deportations, a similar offer was made, whereby all Hungarian Jewry could be saved.
6.
IS IT TRUE that the same Zionist hierarchy again refused this offer (after the gas chambers had already taken a toll of millions).
7.
IS IT TRUE that during the height of the killings in the war, 270 Members of the British Parliament proposed to evacuate 500,000 Jews from Europe, and resettle them in British colonies, as a part of diplomatic negotiations with Germany.
8.
IS IT TRUE that this offer was rejected by the Zionist leaders with the observation “Only to Palestine!”
9.
IS IT TRUE that the British government granted visas to 300 rabbis and their families to the Colony of Mauritius, with passage for the evacuees through Turkey. The “Jewish Agency” leaders sabotaged this plan with the observation that the plan was disloyal to Palestine, and the 300 rabbis and their families should be gassed.
10.
IS IT TRUE that during the course of the negotiations mentioned above, Chaim Weitzman, the first “Jewish statesman” stated: “The most valuable part of the Jewish nation is already in Palestine, and those Jews living outside Palestine are not too important”. Weitzman’s cohort, Greenbaum, amplified this statement with the observation “One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Europe”.
Named,
You are making excellent points all over the place, but still not retracting the false statement you made in #5, “Virulent Islam appeared after Israel and the rest of the Middle East was partitioned by the West”. Named, this is not true. What is the cause of your refusal to acknowledge the un-truth of your statement???
Ethanol,
what we see as the jihadists now is directly related to the partition of the middle east. Unfortunately, the reason we see it is because of the exploitation of the situation by all sides. The rule of past empires follow the exact same process… subjugate, tax, rule. Doesn’t matter which empire you look at.
Now, with “democracy” flowering across the lands, we have different M.O’s for rule.
Imagine if you will the situation in current day Israel. Palestinians are not allowed to return to Israel. They are not allowed to marry Israelies. They are not allowed to work in Israel. They are not even allowed into Hospitals until the checkpoints have been cleared. This was NOT the case 50-60 years ago. It is a modern construction due to the partition. So, the remaining countries EXPLOIT this situation and fund, coerce, prod the people into being martyrs. This is the modern situation. There is no way to compare the oppressed Palestinians reaction to their situation to past actions of the Ottoman empire. Different times, different everything.
I’m not denying that there were militant Islamics before 1919. Or militant Christians, or hindus, or Chinese, or whatever. The difference now is the injustice on an innocent people is being exploited by those in power on both sides of the divide to continue the status quo. The above Rabbi’s are acknowledging that and are trying to change it.
#27, named,
I don’t think ethanol cares for the truth. He only wants you, or anyone else, to believe exactly the way he does. While I have a slightly different take then you, the difference isn’t worth quibbling over. I agree enough to say you got it right. Your analysis is concise, accurate, and very relevant.
Fusion…
I just wish I had an appropriate Homer Simpson quote right now…
One of the more frequently quoted statements of Karl Marx is Religion is the opium of the people this being a translation of the German statement “Die Religion … ist das Opium des Volkes”.
Donot forget that Marx was a Jew too…