What’s that favorite right wing law and order phrase — If you can’t do the time, ya shouldn’t do the crime?
Charges Sought Against Rumsfeld Over Prison Abuse
Just days after his resignation, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is about to face more repercussions for his involvement in the troubled wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. New legal documents, to be filed next week with Germany’s top prosecutor, will seek a criminal investigation and prosecution of Rumsfeld, along with Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, former CIA director George Tenet and other senior U.S. civilian and military officers, for their alleged roles in abuses committed at Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison and at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
The plaintiffs in the case include 11 Iraqis who were prisoners at Abu Ghraib, as well as Mohammad al-Qahtani, a Saudi held at Guantanamo, whom the U.S. has identified as the so-called “20th hijacker” and a would-be participant in the 9/11 hijackings. As TIME first reported in June 2005, Qahtani underwent a “special interrogation plan,” personally approved by Rumsfeld, which the U.S. says produced valuable intelligence. But to obtain it, according to the log of his interrogation and government reports, Qahtani was subjected to forced nudity, sexual humiliation, religious humiliation, prolonged stress positions, sleep deprivation and other controversial interrogation techniques.
Lawyers for the plaintiffs say that one of the witnesses who will testify on their behalf is former Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, the one-time commander of all U.S. military prisons in Iraq.
It would be great….
Probably won’t happen.
And if this case goes through and he is convicted in Germany… this means what? That he isn’t able to travel to Germany, because if he does he will be arrested? Perhaps he won’t be able to travel to several other countries depending on the treaties they have with Germany, but beyond that, what will this accomplish? Will any of the relationships harmed by the events of the past several years be restored?
Well he can’t go to Europe John, perhaps Norway and som other non EU members. But I think you are correct, it will not accomplish anything. Getting some german prosecutor reelected perhaps?
2 Perhaps he won’t be able to travel to several other countries depending on the treaties they have with Germany, but beyond that, what will this accomplish?
But, that would be fun in itself, wouldn’t it?
I think of Pinochet traveling to Britain for medical treatment, and having a Spanish court formally ask the British to extradite Pinochet to Spain…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/468589.stm
Could Rumsfeld, or any of the others, travel abroad after Bush leaves office?
2 Will any of the relationships harmed by the events of the past several years be restored?
Maybe not restored. But as they are repaired, it should be on more of an equal footing – especially now that “stay the course” has been jettisoned…. We hopefully won’t see any more of Bush’s arrogant policy: “9/11, 9/11, 9/11….We’ll do whatever we want…you’re with us or you’re against us”.
I have been praying for a war crimes tribunal…
Although it would be interesting, and maybe even deserved, I say no.
International war crimes should only be tried if the country of origin is unable to have the trials themselves. Because the US is still a nation of laws, we should be able to have our own war crimes tried here. If, and only if, the President grants a blanket immunity then should the international community become involved.
And I don’t put it pass the President to pardon everyone who might have committed a crime under his rule. After Congress holds some hearings, I fully expect that to happen, similar to Ollie North earned and Lt. Calley
god knows I am no Rummy fan, but I think “universal jurisdiction” is a crock, whether it is applied to Rumsfeld, Pinochet or whoever.
political prosecutions don’t sit well with me.
#5 – I have been praying for a war crimes tribunal…
Not really been praying for it, but hoped for it to happen. But it’s like U.N. criticism against Israel… it won’t happen.
Pay back for Nuremberg?
The entire 6 years of the Puppet-in-Charge has been one nasty , stinking act after another but, I still find it difficult to consider the type of reactions that may now occur. Maybe, we need to borrow a page from the past and establish a special prosecutor to determine and/or define whether there are grounds for prosecution and who should be prosecuted ? Might be a tough thing to do with the current Admin and its’ still standing protective legislation. At the least, I’d like to see blow job legalized, finally….
Well I guess this is exhibit A of why the US should not ratify the International Criminal Court treaty. Also a good reason to pull out of NATO.
Germany? They should concentrate on their war criminals. They may be pushing 80 or 90, but there still there.
What’s wrong with Germany prosecuting a crime against one (er… 12) of its citizens? This isn’t an international criminal court, it’s a country that also practices the “rule of law” prosecuting those responsible for kidnapping and torturing some of its citizens. I say they’re entitled, and hope my country would vigorously prosecute such a crime against me.
Uh, excuse me…Germany is mounting this judicial assault on Rummy? Germany? What, is this their cheap way of getting back at us because of Nuremberg? How in the hell does Germany get involved in this? What a bunch of crap. Funny, I didn’t know the World Court was based in Germany.
Where were those secret illegal prisons? It seems if even one of them was in Germany, that gives Germany jurisdiction, rendering every republican talking point on this topic irrelevant. If Germany has an extradition agreement with the US (and they do), looks like Rummy is headed to the clink. You don’t even need the ICC treaty ratified at that point.
*sigh*
No one READS anything anymore.
Germany is not doing anything. A group of Iraqis and a Saudi man filed in a German court due to the “international jurisdiction” law Germany has. The German government did not start this proceeding.
Do TRY to read the articles you bloviate about. It helps.
If the US allows this to occur then we have effectively lost sovereignty over our foreign policy. Considering that Germany doesn’t have any type or real Constitutional type rights then this policy could easily be extended to free speech on the Internet, or even any type of activity which might become known in Germany, China or any other country. If you want to hand over foreign policy to the UN, then this is the way to go about it. Of course, you had better be prepared to have your freedoms reduced to those of the lowest common denominator. Remember Iran, China and Venezuela already believe there is too much free speech here and on the Internet, so much for Net Neutrality.
Considering Germany’s history from it’s beginnings as a Prussian fief the recent E/W German, including WWII, I find this a little hypocritical. Even today the police in Germany can enter an individual’s house without judicial warrant, something we take as a basic right in the US.
As far as extending US Civil rights to foreign nationals, who really thinks that a terrorist or enemy can really be engaged by same rules that are used for peaceful US citizens. It would the same as sending a Police officer to fight a war. You couldn’t take a prisoner without bringing them before a US court. You couldn’t bomb a target or fire upon enemy soldiers without be fired upon. You would have to have arrest warrants for anyone you attempted to engage. If on the other hand you simply want the US to remain at home and not become involved overseas then fine, just say so.
17 If on the other hand you simply want the US to remain at home and not become involved overseas then fine, just say so.
But we don’t, do we?
We claim we are the sole superpower, and will attack anyone – anywhere – if we think they are a “terrorist”. We will use rendition teams to abduct “terrorists” from one foreign contry and interrogate them in secret prisons in some other foreign country…
And then, we bitch when other countries follow our lead by claiming jurisdiction over Human Rights cases… no matter where they occur.
#16. Rereading the article – you are correct. this is a private matter, brought by plaintiffs, not the German government.
I think some of the confusion came from Time mish-mashing in the possible criminal prosecution in 2004, as well as the Pinochet thing.
Gosh, guys, if Rummy hasn’t done anything wrong, then what’s everybody so worried about?
While I’m skeptical that this will produce any concrete results, I don’t think that’s what should catch anyone’s attention.
What this means is that our own government has been so hamstrung in it’s capacity to police itself that another government has taken up prosecution.
Bet’s Shrub’s REALLY sorry he groped Merkel, now, though.
You really are just full of it. . If America is so shitty than move to Germany and don’t come back. There are a million other places on this earth you can go. No one is held hostage to live in United States. But you stay because it really is great and you can moan and groan about how rotten we are so you feel better about being happy and not dodging grenades when you make the next beer run.
Don’t believe any headlines from “Uncle Dave”. His wishful thinking carries him away. The original article in TIME doesn’t have this erroneous headline. “documents, to be filed next week with Germany’s top prosecutor [WITH, not, BY], will SEEK a criminal investigation and prosecution…”
Once again Uncle Dave has had a pre-mature ejaculation. 🙂
As pointed out, this is a private suit brought not by….but in the name of….11 various terrorists or former prisinors of the Defense Department, and the sponser….and in this article I had to almost read all of it before they barely mentioned the real people behind this move, is the American run and staffed, supposedly non-profit Center for Consitituional Rights. This is the second or third time this group has tried this. Germany isn’t going to touch it, if for no other reason than good old Gerhard Shroader may have allowed his spy folks to join in the rendition of prisinors.
#8….Jagermeister…..Excuse me….but my eyes must be tired…..did I see you say the UN defending Isreal????? Maybe I’m reading that wrong…..surely your not saying the UN dosen’t critisize Isreal??? The UN dosen’t do ANYTHING but critisize Isreal….
Q: When liberals don’t agree with each other, what happens?
A: Really boring threads on blogs, and nothing more.
This story is more Friday filler for newscasts than anything important. As soon as the German court finds out they’re arabs they’ll treat them like shit and throw the suit out.
#23 – Jagermeister…..Excuse me….but my eyes must be tired…..did I see you say the UN defending Isreal????? Maybe I’m reading that wrong…..surely your not saying the UN dosen’t critisize Isreal??? The UN dosen’t do ANYTHING but critisize Isreal….
the U.S. is always using its veto against it.
All this will do is give credence to “If you don’t do the time, you didn’t do the crime.”
RBG
A word of warning to the German lawyers…
Don’t ever take sides against “the family.”
They might end up sleeping with the fishes.
18 Yep, when we take off and overthrow a government to further the Globalist agenda this what happens. Unfortunately, just like illegal search and seizure we might have serious consequences from allowing this to happen. Whether or not I like Rumsfeld isn’t important.
I’m not worried about when we go somewhere and fight for our national interest, that’s our national interest ( you know OIL the thing that make your car go, zoom zoom). I’m not any more interested in aiding Globalist slavery than in importing the current illegal Mexican slaves to under cut American jobs. Nor, do I want to export our jobs, sorry outsource our jobs along with our standard of living.
When they export your job, it’s not to raise the standard of living in another country, it’s simply to lower your’s while at the same time tightening the noose around our collective necks.
When the US debt gets large enough and we start having massive problems in the economy the Globalist will have a solution ready. Join the NAU (North American Union), and the NAU will assume everyone’s debt, but with that your precious rights and liberties will be gone. But then, if you feel the people in Mexico have law, order and freedom you might not mind that.
Both Italy and Germany have similar issues going on. In the case of Italy, it looks like US citizens (who happened to be CIA) violated their domestic kidnapping laws when they did a secret warrantless ‘rendition’.
If the reverse happened: let’s say Iranian secret service agents kidnapped a somebody in the USA, should they be given a pass because they are government agents working under Iranian orders?
So why shouldn’t these private citizens be given their day in court? They are German citizens and are pursuing this case in the country where the incidents either happened or originated from. When similar incidents have been pursued in US courts, the government has dummied up and played the “State Secrets” card even when there has obviously not been any secrets.
If Rumsfeld is responsible then yes, he should be held accountable. The proper venue would be US courts, but not if they won’t hear the cases.