Thousands of Turks chanted in defense of secularism on Saturday as they buried veteran leader Bulent Ecevit, best known for winning EU candidacy for Turkey and invading Cyprus in a five-decade political career.
Crowds keen to protect Turkey’s official secularism booed Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan — whose party’s roots are in political Islam — as he arrived at the state funeral in Ankara.
“Turkey is secular and will remain secular,” chanted members of the crowd, which a police official estimated at 50-80,000.
Mainly Muslim Turkey is officially secular but defenders of secularism suspect the AK Party government of having a hidden Islamist agenda.
The funeral chants follow a demonstration by secularists last Saturday, and in May some 25,000 marched in defense of secularism at the funeral of a judge shot dead by a suspected Islamist gunman.
Ecevit, who attended that funeral, said earlier this year that the government posed a threat to the secular order.
Interesting comparison to the progress of Islamist fundamentalism in other Middle Eastern nations — eh?
Now if only we can raise a crowd to defend secularism here in the US.
They know that secularism is the only way out of the political mess the Middle East is.The whole M.East does not produce as much Manufactured product as Finland.To own 3 olive trees makes you a wealthy man.They have 3 generations of people who blame Israel and the West for their problems.Meanwhile Turkey is on their way to being a model member of the europeon community.
Think of this idea.
that in the christien Bible that the end is near.. That Armagedeon, will end all.
but, what will END??
religion?? Truth?? mankind??
Actually, ECA, there’s a school of though among Christians (preterism) that believes that particular prophesy has already long occurred. This is usually also one of the arguments in favor of secularism, however – just as there isn’t a single religion, there isn’t always universal agreement within one.
What’s strange is that being an atheist, I’ve actually learned more about Christianity than if I’d have simply become one. Since I agree that while there’s still some debate open, there’s enough historical evidence of the life of Christ to acknowledge that he was at least as real as other people we assume to have existed at the time, at which point I actually fulfill the extent of the requirements of the religion and there’s no reason to discuss the subject further. I also don’t agree with some part of what he is said to have believed, however, and his feelings on the supernatural in particular would have set us apart.
The same people that get hung up on the rapture also subscribe to a number of other tenets that don’t square with the rest of it, however.
Respective, that some aspects of public life and all public policy are kept wholly secular are what prevent people of one religion from being required to observe another. People to suspect that everyone is interested exclusively in their own agenda, however, which interferes with the advancement of their own, so I can’t advocate the separation without arousing suspicion that I am trying to force people to observe an absence of religion.
Like everything else about the subject, it’s vaguely absurd.
Max Bell, There is another half of the equation that your missing to “actually fulfill the extent of the requirements of the religion” . That is, believing Jesus was/is who he said he was, the Son of God (God Incarnate). But I am glad that you at least acknowledge His presence on Earth.
as to the article, it sounds like they are arguing for thier own version of Americas First Amendment. the part that says “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof….” Good for them.
#6 The secular state of Turkey is a bit different from the US First Amendment. After the modern state of Turkey was founded, it was illegal to wear the fez, a matter which on some occasions was punished by death, and also dervish dancing was illegal. Both were central rituals to Islam, or at least to some sects of it.
The secular state of Turkey is thanks to one man, Kemal Ataturk, who is revered with a fervour far stronger than that of George Washington in the USA, or Wayne Gretzky in Canada (grin). After WW I, the great powers were ready to carve up, divide and conquer the remains of the Ottoman Empire.
The secular state lends some tension to a country that is 98% Moslem. Anyway, I agree, good on the Turks for speaking up for their constitutionally-secular state. If you don’t use it, you lose it.
The fun part comes with all these folks that think the Old testament is PARt of christs beliefs.
It is only a history of the Hebrew religions..yes there are more then 1.
the stories we hear are THEIR journey, not the Christian ones.
When will the christians ADD their own.
So why are these guys so afraid of the Kurds having their own nation?
Officially, Turkey is a democracy but it is the military, backed by Western countries, which holds the real power. Politicians have to watch over their shoulders all the time.
Thanks to pressures required by membership of the EU, it is only recently that Islamists parties have found the courage to speak out and express solidarity with people in Palestine and Lebanon.
The crowd you see here is actually comprised of members of a minority.
When the majority in Turkey start speaking out, this secular crowd will find its voice drowned out.
But that is the way to go. If people want Islamic state, they should go for it. West can’t choose what others want.
ECA: you say that the OT is “is only a history of the Hebrew religions”.
But that’s exactly what Christianity is, a Jewish cult, albeit a particularly successful one in terms of adherents.
If only Europe would stop butting into Turkey’s internal affairs. Making them get rid of the death penalty wasn’t very popular there for example. All these new laws Turkey had to adopt gave strength to the Islamists. And to top it off, Europe still won’t let them into the EU, because they’re too Islamic. It’ll be funny in 50 years when Muslims become the majority in France and everywhere else.
#13. The EU is a superstate, and its laws do not merely regulate the external affairs of its members. Everyone, not just Turkey, has to comply.
Adhering to EU requirements will solidify the secular Turkish state. And if the Turkish people benefit economically by membership in the EU, there will be an unassailable argument against islamism there – going the Iranian route will result in ejection from the EU and grave economic consequences. Give the people a vested interest in secularization and they will stay secular.
#12 – Makes sense, but why are they opposed to the Kurds just taking Iraqi land?
Jim:
Actually, while we might be on the same page, I’d disagree. I should admit that I don’t actually agree with the interpretation I’d given it, which I actually meant as a play on the idea, since my reason for disagreeing doesn’t make much sense, otherwise. While Christ states the idea quite literally himself on a few occasions, he refers to believing in him as the son of God and refers to believing in himself exclusively, drawing no distinction between either. It’s also true that in the context where these statements are made, believing in him means that the people he is speaking to identify him as the messiah, whose teachings provide a means of redeeming themselves with God and thus being worthy of salvation. Merely believing in Christ (or that he was the son of God as well, for that matter) would render the Bible a much shorter book.
I had a idea about christ awhile back, considering the ramifications is fun as an alternative history.
That said…
What would it be like, if the antichrist had killed the christ, after he left his family, and took his place.??
#7: Well, you can buy a fez and watch whirling dervishes, as most tourists do, in Istanbul anytime. What Ataturk did was to prohibit religious cults. There were cases of capital punishment though, fundemantalist anti-revolutionists were executed.
#9: At the end of WWI, French and Russian backed Armenian militia (you may find photos of Armenians in French uniforms) were killing people in Asia Minor. Ottomans made them migrate and many people died unfortunately. The politicians in the west support genocide arguments by the Armenian lobby for votes. As a result, if you say “there was no genocide” in France you get arrested, whereas the state archives is open for anyone in Turkey. So much for freedom of expression. Ironically, the French enlightment idea and freedom of expression influenced the founding father Ataturk greatly. My hope is Turkey and Armenia reach an agreement.
#15: A nationalistic movement needs one crucial thing: an enemy. A Kurd state bordering Turkey would be a real headache to the the government of Turkey.
“Interesting comparison to the progress of Islamist fundamentalism in other Middle Eastern nations — eh?”
Even more interesting comparison to people like Bill O’Reilly who say “secularist” like it’s a dirty word.
15,
The Kurds have been trying to take a piece of the following countries to restore the historic Kurdistan; Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran. You know the saying, give and inch, they take a mile? Well, the Iraqi people (not the government backed by the US) had nothing to do with the kurdish plight. The Kurds have been involved in as many historic blights as they have had visited. This is the major problem with colonialism, imperialism and the other isms (communism included!) Once your dream land starts falling apart, where do you draw the line? India is still enjoying the partition from the British 50 years ago, Israel is still a paradise after the Balfour declaration, the entire middle east is still the land of the free after the machinations of WW1 and 2… The list goes on. But, as mankind is a pendulum, it will all be visited again.
So, give the Kurds northern Iraq. The Christians there will be persecuted, probably killed or forced out. And 50 years from now, we’ll be talking about this all over again. THat is if smoking doesn’t kill me first!