What’s going on in Colorado’s Evangelical community? First Ted Haggard was forced to step down in disgrace, and now for the second time in as many months a prominent conservative Christian leader is embroiled in a gay sex scandal. This time it’s Paul Barnes, founding pastor of the 2,100-member Grace Chapel, who admitted to his congregation, in a taped confession that he has had sexual relations with other men.
Unlike Haggard, Barnes has limited political connections and has stayed out of Colorado’s gay marriage debate, although he has preached that God views homosexuality as a sin. During his tearful confession, the 54-year-old acknowledged struggling with his identity since childhood and being racked with self-loathing because of his “firm moral family.” Despite being unable to escape himself, even after being reborn, Barnes claimed he could not accept that people were “born that way.” But if nature did not make him gay, does that mean his strict religious upbringing is the root cause of his lifetime of guilt?
Most folks aren’t especially tweaked when they learn a friend or relative is gay — unless they’re strung out on one or another religion that says you’re a sinner. Phew!
The claim by Ted Haggard that he had tried unsuccessfully to treat himself for a “repulsive and dark” part of his life, reflects a concept espoused by many religious conservatives, and disputed by many mental health experts.
“Haggard is Exhibit A of how people can’t change their sexual orientation,” said Wayne Besen, a gay-rights activist and author. “With all that he had to lose — a wife, children, a huge church — he had to be who he was in the end. He couldn’t pray away the gay.”
Haggard did not specify how he had sought help or describe the healing-and-restoration program he vows to pursue now — but did say he deserved to be “disciplined and corrected.”
Clinton Anderson, director of the American Psychological Association’s Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Concerns Office, found Haggard’s statement dismaying.
“There’s a profound sadness that someone should be saddled culturally with such a negative attitude toward a part of themselves,” Anderson said. “From our vantage point as psychologists, his self-repulsion is not necessary, it’s not justified.”
It’s been decades since scientific study led psychology away from considering homosexuality as “deviant”. Cultural lag is one thing. Clinging to foolish notions and harmful practices on the basis of religious ideology is absurd.
There have been as many as four including haggard in so many months. Some have not been reported by the “national media”.
Exactly. Sexual polarity is not a choice, no matter how hard the church wishes and prays it is. These revelations only underscore how stupid and destructive such philosophies are. Just accept gays and the problems go away.
I find that those who are vehemently against something are usually really into it. And i think we’ve had some great examples in recent history.
#2 please explain how or why then people change “Sexual polarity”
when you consider the obscene amounts of wealth being a successful evangelical minister bestows upon you, and the complete unquestioning obedience of a large flock, it’s easy to see how even the strongest man can succumb to temptation.
besides, evangelicals talk about evil that others perpetrate all day long — it’s always on their mind; they’re obsessed with it. perhaps if evangelicals quit obsessing about evil and just focused on being a better person themselves, they wouldn’t constantly go around snapping like this
This only illustrates that we live in a sinful world and pastors are NOT exempt from its temptations. Sexuality (not just homosexuality) is a learned behavior, we are a product of our environment.
If you disagree with me then think about those people who are attracted to children, do we want to consider that “normal” also. And just because people cheat on their spouses, should that also be considered normal. We need a moral compass and the Bible is the only one that has stood the test of time.
Remember just because some prominent people are hypocrites don’t blame God for that.
hey Smartalix, just accept everything and the problems go away.
I’ve never understood why it matters if “you’re born that way.” It’s not uncommon for humans to be born with a disposition to sin. Surely no Christian would say that if you’re born that way, it’s okay?
No, it IS a choice. Love is a choice and so is sexual activity. We don’t just leave our house and rape the first person we see. We exercise control all the time. Are men also genetically predisposed to their hands? Shall we now have geneticists absolve us of all blame, shall we all believe in fate and indulge every ridiculous whim because we were predisposed to it?
Nothing has changed since Christianity was founded. The Greeks considered homosexuality and pedophilia normal (not saying that homosexuals are pedophiles, but greek male teachers had sex with their male pupils normally). St. Paul wrote all his works in this culture and the Jewish rabbis, like Jesus, lived in a very moral culture at the same time. They knew all about this and it didn’t change their mind about homosexuality or marriage. That isn’t proof that they’re right, of course, but it’s not possible for “modern psychology” or science that changes anything about religion and morality. Religion and morality is prescriptive, not descriptive. So you have evidence against a Christian straw man, congratulations.
So let me know when “scientists” determine how long “cultural lag” takes, because we’re at 2000+ years and counting and The Way isn’t going away. You might want to throw a couple history books in your laptop bag the next time you take a flight, there, genius.
Ah, I enjoy stories with great irony.
And here, in this forum, the raving xians trying to establish/enforce what quite a few of us look upon as ridiculous:
Being gay is a sin, and even if you’re born gay, all you have to do is change.
Some even believe there is no “born that way”.
It all boils down to the bible. It teaches a mindset not suited for many people’s reality. It’s sad.
#7) So people are only attracted to other people because it’s learned?
Dude, I dunno about you, but I’m fairly certain that my attraction to women is fundamental to who I am. Looking back on my childhood, I can see how I was sexually attracted to girls before I even knew what that meant.
Let me ask you a question I’m genuinely interested to hear your answer…Do you believe that a man who, from childhood, had a strong attraction to other men, can change that fundamentally? Not just their behavior, but their very attraction? If it’s just learned, can they relearn and become straight?
When I was a homophobe, I used the gay vs. pedophile argument, too…then I figured out why that was a weak argument. (Hint: the keyword is consent. If your sexual predilection includes an intent to deny consent, it’s pathological. Otherwise, it’s nobody else’s hate-filled business)
Obviously, believers in “The Way” will never get round to comprehending geologic time, evolutionary time — or science-based reality. They will proceed down their particular Yellow Brick Road — and that’s OK except when they have the power to enforce their silliness on others.
What these articles illustrate is the harm done by stubborn, ignorant beliefs.
Even us non-gay, non-religious folk have enough brains and common sense to understand that NONE of us would be alive right now if it weren’t for a man CHOOSING to stick his penis into a woman’s vagina and not in a man’s you know where!!
But then again, maybe this is God’s way of curing overpopulation?
At least he’s not molesting children…right?
#4 you cannot change “Sexual polarity”… that is what #2 said
#10 says “Love is a choice and so is sexual activity.”
Hmmm, I certainly agree that sexual activity is a choice, but the components of love are certainly not well enough understood to be recognized as anything approaching a clear-cut choice. And the one thing that is definitely not a choice is sexual attraction. The notion that you chose to be attracted to your wife is preposterous on its face, and suggests that you could just as easily make the opposite choice to find her ugly and repugnant. People spend billions of dollars annually to make themselves more attractive, and the implications of the claim that attraction is a mere choice are enormous and far-reaching. Shhhhhh, we must keep this quiet. This idea of “choice” would wreak havoc on our current economy.
As for your claim that “nothing has changed since Christianity was founded,” I disagree with that also, at least with regard to emphasis. Certain Bible passages are virtually ignored today because they’re totally unacceptable to so many people. A good example would be the apostle Paul’s letter to Timothy saying, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” And later he writes, “But women will be saved through childbearing -— if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.” (Bible quotes are from the New International Version) I don’t hear a lot of sermons being preached on this topic today. Why not? It seems to be one area where our current culture has most greatly diverged from “God’s plan.”
Once you’ve solved the much greater and pervasive problem of women being treated equally, in contravention of Biblical teachings, then perhaps you can attack some of the much smaller problems that currently distract you.
#6, I think the matter of “is it a choice?” is a bit more cut and dry with purely homosexual people, but I have known plenty of bisexual individuals who claim to have never been aware of any same-sex attraction until sometime later in life.
Having said all of that, actions are always a choice, but I have never known love to be a choice for anybody.
P.S. to my #17. Please don’t get the misimpression that I have anything but the fullest support for women’s equality. On the contrary, I was using that issue as an example of how wrong Biblical teachings can be, and how so many Christians selectively ignore certain portions of the Bible for which popular support for the extremeness of the Bible’s position has virtually vanished.
And my apologies for neglecting to properly close one of my bold HTML tags 😉
#19
Hey Gary, I got your point, and I share it 😉
I would even stress “….how so many Christians selectively ignore certain portions of the Bible….” more and say:
Many Christians selectively ignore numerous portions of the Bible to make it acceptable today.
I have said it before, and I say it again: Cherry picking passages from the bible makes the bible “OK”. Taking it literally as words from a god is totally unacceptable in today’s society. As your example describes very well.
#6 is that how you explain people who claim to?
#16 how do you explain people who claim to?
sometimes people change their behavior, I don’t claim the fundamental meaning of such decisions, but would like your take on it. “Changing teams” as I have heard it called, occurs often enough. One public example:
“DeGeneres’ relationship with former Another World actress Anne Heche turned into material for the tabloid press. After several years in the spotlight, Heche broke up with DeGeneres and went on to marry male cameraman Coley Laffoon.”
Hey get real folks. The human male will screw a snake if someone will hold it’s head. It’s nature and the way nature works. Some have been indoctrinated into a form of pleasure they like, and want to repeat. Death is the price we pay for sex, so you might as well go ahead and enjoy it and forget the holier than thou’s bullcrap. Some men and women are just to darn dumb, ugly or smell so bad they cant find pleasure the way normal folks do. Feel sorry for the and damn the damners for picking on the poor souls.
Roger, one of the best phrases I’ve heard to describe these folks is “Cafeteria Christians” (with mad props to the writers of West Wing for such an apt label).
#10, solomonrex, “
“Love is a choice and so is sexual activity. We don’t just leave our house and rape the first person we see. We exercise control all the time.”
Who is the “we” you are referring to?
#23
Yeah. But I tend to prefer the coffee drinkers rather than the “stone them to death” xians tho 😀
And #21 Wok Tiny: I don’t know whether you choose to try to provoke or if you are utterly ignorant. But your post is as stupid as saying;
“I saw it on the Internet, so it has to be true”.
# 6 You ask why would anyone choose to be gay given the consequences. That is very faulty logic. People choose to kill even in states that have the death penalty. People make bad choices every day with the hope that they will avoid the consequences.
#10 – Shall we now have geneticists absolve us of all blame, shall we all believe in fate and indulge every ridiculous whim because we were predisposed to it?
We have to something… you Xians smear guilt around like monkeys throwing feces… How is that different?
I had a long, thoughtful response… but as I kept reading it occurred to me that Xian ideas are moronic and they can just go to Hell (or they could if Hell weren’t just part of thier mass delusion).
It’s quite hilarious how people like to spin this story as being a Christian or religious perspective. Let me come out now and say I don’t have a religious molecule in my body. Yet I continue to question the legitimacy of the whole gay perspective. But I am one of the “lucky” ones who can still do this. Those who might wish to challenge likewise – eg.: business executives, government workers, school teachers, scientists, tenured professors, zoology instructors – all know to keep their mouths tightly shut lest they risk losing their hard-fought positions in life. If anyone is stuck in a closet, it is they. Or hadn’t you wondered why respected people in your community generally don’t question, even slightly, the concept of being gay? And that’s the way you like it.
You people accept the gay faith, purely based on ‘what should be right,” with the same “religious” zeal as those who truly knew the sun revolved around the Earth. You refuse to base your beliefs on anything remotely scientific. And when such a tidbit does come along you grab it like it was your last supper. You will never examine or even speak of such issues as bi-sexuality, impact on children, zoological contradictions, “genetically-induced” gay accents, mental health development, etc.
If solid, generally-accepted pro-gay evidence does indeed exist in all its glory, merely to be examined, then I say the psychological, zoological, medical and media communities all have a lot to answer for. I look forward to the day it should exist.
There is an old cliche that goes like: “some of my best friends are gay.” In my case, my BEST friends are gay. And so, you know, I would give my life for any gay person as I would any other person if warranted. I would drink their spit to show supreme loyalty.
But I refused to be sucked into overwhelming, superstitious gay propaganda just to go along with the crowd.
RBG
#25 When I was in high school, I had a female classmate who was pursuing another female. She didn’t go for guys. I suppose in this regard, she could be called “gay.” She told me that she was not always so oriented, but that while “straight” another “gay” female student had so persistently pursued her that she was swayed over to a “gay” orientation.
She had changed her “sexual polarity” or “changed teams” as my college classmates called it.
I am not trying to provoke, or troll, but I am trying to express my ignorance in the best way possible: a sincere question.
“If ‘Sexual polarity is not a choice’ then how do people change their sexual polarity?”
So far, I have not had a direct and clear response. The closest being #6 which seemed to state that sexual polarity is not a fundamental, but a behavior question. However, I could not clearly understand the intent of this post.
So Roger, I implore to, don’t refuse to teach and then hate me for my ignorance. Answer my question.
This whole gay/not gay thing is just silly. People are people…and we are the mammal that is in estrus 24/7, 365 days a year. We don’t have a “heat cycle” aside from ON. The sexual dimorphism between our sexes is blurred — with a high variablity between male/female, as it’s very, very subtle. And, like all primates, if you have ever been to the zoo on a sunny afternoon, we have sex on our minds all the time. In fact, boredom makes it worse for monkeys and men.
I’d venture to guess that ANY raging testosterone addled male would find any port in a storm satisfying if there a lack of first-choice desirable ports. SEX is a fundamental pursuit as it’s tied in with our survival instincts. We may be compelled to find food before sex, once we eat… oh baby!!
Now, to be only attracted to the same sex may be a preference, it may be something hardwired. The argument is over nurture v.s. nature. However, note: numerous studies have shown that we DO pick mates based on smells and other very subtle criteria, stuff we aren’t even aware of conciously. Women are turned on by men with smells that are VERY different from their fathers and brothers, and turned off by smells that are similar. (We’re not just talking aftershave, but the molecular expressions of our genetics.) This might be a way of genetic sorting. Some people smell good, some, eh, not so much.
There are a lot of things we “do” as a species that is rather clouded in what was an effective survival skill in the past, but rather useless today. For a percentage of us to be attracted to the same-sex may also be a long term strategy to our ultimate herd survival. . Maybe there is a reproducion limiting switch? Maybe crowded conditions create a need for homosexuality, to enable the long-term survival rates of the reproducers, without famine or pandemic?
Lots of animals have odd little quirks of reproduction. Reptile sex is determined by the ambient heat while they are incubating in the egg. Hot and it’s male, just right and they’re females, too cold and they’re dead. But there have also been studies that have shown that reptile behavior is also related to the temperatures.
LINK
“… the researchers found something else: the few females that hatched from eggs incubated at the higher temperature (designated as ”hot females”) behaved as if they were males when they reached maturity. Physiologically female in all respects, the ”hot females” nonetheless courted ”cold females” rather than males, and they consistently repelled the advances of true males. During a two-year study period, none of the hot females mated or laid eggs.”
For all we know, being evangelical and hearing bible passages always being spouted while a woman is pregnant causes homosexuality. Who knows? Maybe it’s soy!
Whatever it is, it’s not something that can be “cured” because it’s all about SEX and it’s pursuit, which is part of our instincts, our nature. Maybe gayness is a key part of gods plan?
People have been born and/or chosing to be same-sex attracted since the beginning of time. It’s across all cultures, all religions, all races. In fact, it’s across all species…except maybe the amoeba and snail (as they are both sexes). Heck, some species can change to the sex needed!!!
I’d think that we would have come to accept it by now. Get your head out of your neighbors pants (unless, of course, it’s consentual.)
#28
Gee, I was wondering what took you so long RBG, LOL.
And once again, I have to admit, I’m not sure if I’m getting your point.
Besides, “Let me come out now and say I don’t have a religious molecule in my body.” Not quite the impression I’ve received earlier, but “things” might have changed?
I take it you still think there is no gay sexual preference? That it’s all a matter of making up your mind and stick to it?
I’m pretty much convinced there is gay on one end of the scale, and heterosexual in the other. And then there are grades between the two, bisexual being at one spot of the scale.
You mention “You people accept the gay faith…” and I have to ask, what “You people” are you talking about? And what is “gay faith”? And “impact on children…”. What’s that? Do you think kids turn gay if they see a gay couple?
And “In my case, my BEST friends are gay. “ Do you suddenly believe in being gay now, or are you sarcastic?
I mean, what the hell are you talking about?