Vast wastelands around the nickel mines
The Recorder — We covered one aspect of this in the blog in 2006 and newer information backing up the seemingly ludicrous notion that the Hummer is environmentally more sound that the Prius. I wouldn’t own a Hummer because it is a clunker that is too darn big. It seems to be brought up time after time as a screwball example of why the Prius is a scam. In this report someone finally mentions real economy cars such as the Scion. Hybrids may actually be an environmental disaster if the reports in and around the nickel mining operations in Ontario are true. But the hybrid is trendy and hip.
Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles – the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.
The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.
So, if you are really an environmentalist – ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available – a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage – buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.
related link:
Old post on Hummer versus Prius
Biggest source of Acid-rain
I will be the first to admit, I do appreciate the 40+ miles I get with my Scion Xa. Great little car for moving around town, and even has good power for hills and highways. Plus, the stereo support MP3, has a docking station for the iPod I will never own, and front wheel drive is pretty handy on the hills. Fully loaded, it was only 18k. Much less than the 30k I paid for my 4×4 Dakota which only gets 20mpg.
I do however still have my 4×4 truck for the times when the snow is just too high for the scion to get around.
After almost a year of driving a Hybrid Camry, I will avoid Toyotas for the rest of my life. At just about 20k miles I have been in for dealer service 3 times. In the 2k miles since the last service I have a red engine light again, but it was xmas season, so I havent been in for service again yet. After this lease is over I am getting a Maxima.
The part that keeps breaking is the gas tank pressure regulator pump, I have no idea what it does or how it works, I just know when it is broken, I get 30mpg instead of 50 on rural (55mph speed limit) highways.
You can recycle most of the components of a Hybrid… how much of the gas that you burned can you recycle?
Now if they would give us what we really need… a short range purely electric car (100 miles / charge), with reasonable speeds, covering 80% of our ‘puttering around’ needs. But it will never happen. No oil changes, no transmission to service/replace, extremely low brake wear, few moving parts to break. Dealers and their service departments won’t allow it. Gas pump operators won’t allow it.
The concept is a crock – of course. If people want to waste time playing semantic and statistical games – well, it’s your time.
GregA – I have several neighbors with the Prius and the hybrid Camry. None have your problem. Plus a couple of Scions. We also have a conscientious competent Toyota dealer in town.
I think your mistake was where you bought the car in the first place – especially when they keep refreshing the problem.
I just searched through a couple of car forums and found no one with your problem.
I want a SMART car… or something like it. It looks like a blast to drive. and it’s too cold and wet for my motorcycle.. (I love my BMW r1150rt) .
If I need to haul something I’ll rent a truck for the day.
The mini is fun also.
Don’t forget, the RIAA will soon be asking for royalties from Hummers.
There’s nothing like the Big Lie to get people “revisiting” issues. If spoken in headlines often enough, it becomes equivalent to the claim that scientists are still unsure of Global Warming, or that Creation Science really has a point there.
I guess it was a low news day.
This from Toyota re: recycling of batteries. Nothing about the mfg. impact on the environment, there are too many googles to go through.
http://tinyurl.com/394vkq
What do you do with a totaled Prius? Pray the mess can be recycled? Cripes, a smashed battery system is something for which I can find no data.
Here we go repeating history all over again. I remember the last fuel crisis. I did my part to solve it by buying a 1984 Plymouth Turismo that was great in the snow, great on the highway, got 45mpg (5-speed is the secret) and did all of this without fuel injection, turbo charging, hybrid technology, and cost less than $8,000 new. Rich snobs can drive cars that cost more than they save; however this will not solve the fuel crisis. We need something affordable, economical, AND practical.
I keep looking for this car to reappear in a modern form, but no one seems interested in building one. That’s too bad; I believe in practical economy. Turbo diesels seem to be the best route today if someone would put together an affordable package. Until then, I’ll just keep driving what I can afford.
Is Lee Iacocca still around? Its time to dust him off and put him back to work.
I drove a 1992 Ford Festiva that got nearly 50 miles to the US gallon (57 Canadian). I gave it to my daughter, with strict instructions never to drive it out of town…it wd be a deathtrap in a hwy accident. Still going strong at 160,000 miles…why cant they build a modern version of that w airbags?
If hybrids worked this is what they would look like.
http://tinyurl.com/2nntc4
It might or might not be true – I seriously doubt anyone takes their Hummer to 300K. But it doesn’t matter. The point is to continue preferentially buying “green” technology, even if it turns out to be less green than claimed, so the manufacturers get herded down that path.
Claims like this are put forward by people who want to dismiss environmental concerns. They look for flaws in proposed solutions, and often the flaws are there. But ask them what counter-proposals they support and there’s no reply, just a sort of smug ridicule of the whole issue.
Accepting the statement as true, what it means to me is that gas is too cheap for conservation to be practical. If the government won’t tax it to provide the market incentives thereby keeping that money in the GOUSA economy==as they have shown themselves unwilling to do for 35 years now===there is no reason for the House of Saud not to raise their prices and take our accumulated wealth to their sandy shores.
The whole oil economy/free market at work/short vs long sighted/benefits is interesting to observe. Too bad GOUSA continues to take the Big Oil/free market/short sighted view of things.
No, 2008 is the year that we talk about how we’re going green and we won’t be. Not even close.
Cheese #9, watch for significant new diesel designs to be introduced later this year by VW (and possibly others). The next generation of diesels will be much cleaner, and designed for city driving.
If you go to Sudbury, Ontario in Google Earth, you find one helluva’n industrial/mining wasteland. Can’t imagine it’s ALL from batteries … but it’s a Stygian landscape, for sure.
John, this is another crock.
No one buys a Toyota with an expectation that its service life is 100Kmi. Ask the same research house (once you’ve discovered who’s financed this) to find out what the 300Kmi number is for the Toyota.
Then stop scamming yourself.
I have a Toyota in the driveway with 220Kmi. It’s a 1993. It gets 22 in town, 34hwy. It has no intrinsic value except as cheap transportation. Its insurance cost is nominal– no collision insurance is necessary. It’s on the original engine and 5-speed; one clutch, four batteries, a generator, four self-done brake jobs (4 wheel disc; it’s stupid-simple to do).
If you’re somehow trying to justify a Hummer as economical or even mildly eco-friendly, you failed.
If you’re pandering for hit count….. well, I’d believe such a ruse. Why didn’t you put a blonde bikini’d female beside an H2 instead? Doesn’t that trick seem to work the best for you? Or perhaps just call it another bogus Linux problem…..
Own a Honda Hybrid. Thing kicks butt.
I would say that the 100,000km lifespan is a load of crapola. This thing is built well and like a honda, it will still be driving in 10-15 years. No problemos.
Secondly, if I have a hybrid, especially a popular one, the thing people are pointing to for failure is the battery. If, say in 5 years, the batteries do die, the after market will be so huge to replace them, it’s not like you throw the thing out. As well, also keep in mind, that the batteries when they are replaced, are replaced with the latests in technologies (assuming you go 3rd party), then, your MPG goes way up.
I guess the same could be said about the Hummer, just not sure many people would buy a new engine for it.
I think this is all silly though, the reality is that MOST of western world would do fine with a Hybrid. The technology is sound and proven. As time goes on, the only two things that will change on it is the battery technology and the fuel source (plug-in, coal, gas, hydrogen, flux-capacitors, etc…). That is the direction we should be heading.
What is needed (some examples)…
–One car maximum for every 3 adult people in a household.
–Limit horsepower per kg of car to an energy efficient maximum.
–Limit car speeds to energy efficient maximums.
–Create free public transportation systems funded by tax dollars.
–Don’t allow industries that permanently damage the environment.
–Don’t allow industries where the byproducts are not recyclable in an eco-friendly way.
Sure it’s expensive. You’ll have to drop your standard of living down a few notches. Unfortunately, many people will fight to stop such measures through selfishness and greed. I honestly see a few starts and spurts for “green” ahead, but apathy, greed and selfishness will win out.
And then, there’s China. It’s their turn to rape the earth and they’re doing it with more gusto and faster than ever imagined.
I have to echo the comments above on the false lifetime-expectations claims. That’s what they use to make their numbers, and there’s nothing that can back up a Hummer lasting 300k miles as the “expected” lifespan. The Prius, however, go on over to Priuschat.com and ask how many people have over 100k miles on their Prius, you will get a LOT of responses. There was an initiative in either New York City or a city in Canada (I can’t remember which off the top of my head) where taxi companies got a load of Prii back in 2000 or 2001, first generation Prii. Some of those cars have well over 250k miles on them, no sign of the battery packs losing effectiveness.
Someone trying to work the numbers to make it come out in their favor. “Hmm, if we say the Prius won’t last long, and we say the Hummer is going to last 3x that long, then the overall lifetime costs work . . . let’s go with that!”
And, how is the “nickel-mining” now a problem, when we’ve been using NiMH rechargeable batteries now for years? It’s not like the Prius is the cause of exponentially higher nickel production, I’ll bet Sam’s Club sells more packs of rechargable batteries in a year than are in the whole fleet of Prii out there right now.
This story is crap, John, you of all people should know better.
This is hands down the stupidest thing I’ve read in a long time. Buying green even when its not really green will not “herd” manufacturers down a true green path. All it will do is let manufacturers know that consumers are stupid and that consumers value the appearance of green over true green products, which will cause manufacturers to flood the market with fake green products.
The only way to “herd” manufactures towards a green future is to demand truly green products. Hybrids are in no way such products.
It’s all a scam this “global warming” to get you to buy new shit that you need to be “green”.
Marketing is a very clever science…and we fall for it every time!
Global warming a scam?
http://www.newstatesman.com/200712190004
The new NatGeo has a interesting piece on e-trash – old computers messing up the environment.
I especially took note there is no mention regarding the “green” compact fluorescent lamps (CFL) that we are meant to buy.
What about the BILLIONS of CFLs with mercury, rare earth phosphors, lead and plastics in 10 years time? Isn’t that the same as the electronics that are screwing up the Earth?? Will there be another panic crafted by marketing to get rid of the Earth damaging CFLs for a new “green” lamp?
We are all sheep…and stupid ones at that baaaaa baaaaa baaaaa…
Cheers
Diesel is a good idea, but it seems to have caught on with the oil crowd. Gas is 3 bucks now, diesel is 3.95. Funny how it was cheaper before eh! They will get theirs no matter how green you go. I’m expecting dumbya and his buddy to institute a federal road tax on my bicycle next. I am getting from one point to another without paying for their war, so …..
#3, such cars have existed for a long time. The Lectric Leopard was available back in 1980.
http://www.theenergyguy.com/MoreTEGsCar1.html
I know someone who actualy commutes in one of these:
http://www.hightechscience.org/sparrow.htm
#19
I dont putting limits on cars per people is good. For example, I have a 1989 Suburban. The thing gets 9 mpg. I drive it a total of about 600 miles per year, in snow storms and camping. The rest of the year, I drive a more economical car. Given you solution, I would either need a less economical car all year so I can be prepared for the blizzards here, or be stuck when the snow comes. One answer doesn’t work for everyone.
Current Hybrids are TOO complex mechanically. Everyone I discussed this with seems to agree that a good design would have the drivetrain be totally electric, with a small fixed purpose fuel burner that is optimized for a particular RPM running a generator that’s most efficient at that RPM keeping the battery pack topped off. And you plug it in at home. And for total efficiency, you don’t let GM, Ford or Chrysler have shit to do with it. They’ll just fuck things up. Standardized battery packs, motors and other driveline components would go a long way for green, as you could keep a vehicle properly maintained and safe on the road for far longer than is common today.
Don’t expect any of this to happen of course.
Dvorak=Journalist? Not always so.
Here’s what a few moments of research found. You can find it too. Just “revisit” any string of eight words within it on Google. That probably will lead you right to it.
“It has come to our attention that a story originally published in the Mail on Sunday has apparently been misinterpreted by some of our readers.
“In order to prevent further misinterpretation, we have removed the article from our website. The following letter was published in the Mail on Sunday on May 13, 2007:
“Your article about the Inco nickel factory at Sudbury, Canada, wrongly implied that poisonous fumes from the factory had left the area looking like a lunar landscape because so many plants and trees had died. You also sought to blame Toyota because the nickel is used, among countless other purposes, for making the Prius hybrid car batteries.
“In fact any damage occurred more than thirty years ago, long before the Prius was made. Since then, Inco has reduced sulphur dioxide emissions by more than 90 per cent and has helped to plant more than 11 million trees.
“The company has won praise from the Ontario Ministry of Environment and environmental groups. Sudbury has won several conservation awards and is a centre for eco-tourism.”
Hybrids may actually be an environmental disaster if the reports in and around the nickel mining operations in Toronto are true.
I lived in Toronto for years. There are no nickel mines nearby. There is a steady urban sprawl eating up good farm land, but no wasteland.
Sudbury is a couple hundred miles north of Toronto. It sits on some of the oldest known rock on earth (the Precambrian Shield) that was the scene of a massive meteor hit untold eons ago. That hit produced a lot of mineral deposits, including nickel, silver, lead, copper, and gold. Current refining methods for the nickel put a lot of sulfur dioxide and nitrates in the air. For years, the Sudbury Basin was the world’s worst point of air pollution.
There was little vegetation because of the acid rain. With no vegetation, the soil washed away until bare rocks were left. So solve that problem, the largest nickel company, INCO built a huge stack over 500 feet tall. That helped by putting the pollution hundreds of miles down wind. Since then, INCO has reduced the amount of SO2 and NO emissions tremendously.
It has been 15 years since I was last in Sudbury. It was so much better from the first time I was there 40 years ago. But it ain’t no Toronto.
#17 — reread the comments and the piece. It’s not about the Hummer…the Hummer is used as a worst case comparison. It doesn’t mean I LIKE Hummers (the vehicle).
AS for Toronto..I meant Ontario..it’s been fixed. It was a mistake. Obviously if that plant was near Toronto there would be some complaining.
And as for some article disappearing from some newspaper…gee Peter, what a shocker.
Let me preface this by stating I live in the UK.
Whenever I see a story regarding the Toyata Prius, I simply want to shoot myself. The Toyota Prius barely exists in the UK for one reason, and one reason alone. It is rubbish. There are at least 2 competing cars from every other dealer that are far better, and cheaper. I run a Renault Clio, 2 Years old, no problems (£6 Grand. Firstly this is not the price of the car, just the extortionate rate UK Buyers have to pay, you can probably get it for 1/3 off in europe). The Clio gets my 39MPG (Actualy, book is 48) on petrol. it produces 142g/KM of CO2. Prius Book 48MPG, 104g/KM. UK Price: £17.
America, I speak solely from the heart, GO TO SCHOOL AND GET AN EDUCATION THAT ISNT PANTS. If you buy a car simply because of a marketing campaign saying its good you need to be shot.
If you want a good car, with excellent MPG -Volkswagen Golf GTTDI. Well get you around 55 MPG(Actual), working out at about 500 Miles on a Tank (motorway driving). In America it is the Golf GLS TDI. Set you back about $17K. 145g/KM Co2, top speed 130, 140BHP. Also, since its german it will never break down or require any major work. The TDI version will be less powerful but even better for MPG and CO2.
I hate being harsh, but there is a reason you got booed at Mali. Its because you think you need a 8L V8 4×4 SUV you drive in a straight line 100ft to take your kids to school. Quite frankly, you dont your just being pillocks. There are situations where you need a 4×4, they are when you are ACTUALLY working off road, or when you live in a harsh area, by this I mean a farm in North Wales, not San Francisco. Get you act together, before the rest of the world decides to start a “war on stupidity”. (Sorry, my pure disgust at the stupidity of your poltiical leaders and what seems to be most of the country just outrages me.)
John,
Even if a new technology such as hybrid electric vehicles did consume more resources than older established ones, it would still make sense to buy them if there is a reasonable expectation they will be more resource efficient in the future. All early adopters pay a premium over late adopters, but they fund further development of the technology.
In any case, while a Prius may use more resources/mile than a VW diesel, for example, it seems unlikely than it uses more than the Hummer. As others have pointed out, the “study” assumes the Prius will be junked after 100k miles and the Hummer after 300k, both of which are unlikely–they will probably have similar lifetimes.
Future hybrids will use lithium batteries that require no nickel, will run off of solar or wind power 75% of the time with the help of larger battery packs, and will cost about the same as gas-engine-only cars. The fact that they cost the same indicates that the resources needed to manufacture them are roughly equivalent.
Future hybrids will use about 1/8th the liquid fuel per mile than current vehicles (by running on batteries 75% of the time, and by having at least twice the fuel efficiency while running on liquid fuel). What’s not to like about that?