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Well. This is not so simple and clear cut. The welfare state might not be swift and efficient, but OTOH private health care is a vortex of hi margin business practices. The cost of Health Insurance runs through the roof in the US. And public Health System is worse than some 3rd world countries.
Let’s not get too “binary”. There’s no win win solution.
Big deal. Without government sponsored health care you don’t have room for bureaucrats who have power over everyone, who can arrange special privileges in exchange for kickbacks.
Ron Paul is looking better and better…
Well, we’ll never know unless we try? Not to try that or some other modifications to our present system really shows an uncaring/inappropriate social planning?
Should 45Million americans be without basic healthcare coverage right now? Should working people have to choose between owning a home and having healthcare?
Yes, there are terrible abuses in the USA Healthcare system==and the Candadian as well===so lets design starting with the best of both systems? (yea==whatever that might mean?)
In any system, some will get the shaft. Do you want 45 million getting the shaft, or some smaller number?
From the begining of this country till about the mid 60’s the government had nothing to do with health care in this country, and everyone loved it, thought it was the best thing ever.
The government begins to get involved, forces the creation of HMO’s and costs begin to skyrocket, and the quality of the care is not as good.
So, by getting the government MORE involved, we are going to increase the quality of coverage and reduce the costs. That would be a first.
When did health care become “a right” I have several dozen friends in Canada, they come here when they can for health care. There are also more MRI machines in the state of Kalifornia than in all of Canada.
Bottom-lining it, one factor rules the debate: the public good cannot be dependent on for-profit entities. Period. No amount of good intentions can possibly equal the force of primal greed.
Profit-seeking necessitates cutting costs. In healthcare, cutting costs has one unavoidable consequence – a decline in quality of care.
All the rationalizations for greed remain nothing more than that – individuals maximizing their income at the expense of everyone other than themselves. Common human purpose and simple humanity are inconvenient factors to be brushed aside. It’s all about ME, ME, ME.
Fixing broken humans and working to make them resistant to breakage, overall and in the long term, cannot ever be profitable. It will always result in a net monetary loss. So the choice really is that simple: private profit for a few and a less-healthy, less-productive populace and economy and country – or a fiscal sacrifice by all, for the real profit of a healthier populace, which is returned to that same populace in countless societal positives, in perpetuity.
Caring about other people, as individuals or as a society, (and indirectly, about oneself, as a member of that society) is reflected on no balance sheet anywhere.
#5 Health Care is, not only a right of the people, but the duty of a any self-entitled first-world society.
Regarding #1’s comment, there truly is no easy solution. And it is clear that whatever solution is adopted in the U.S. must not follow the current Canadian “easy solution” system.
If you have health care insurance in the US that doesn’t mean that you can get quick access to what you need. 17 year old Nataline Sarkisyan died waiting for help because Cigna wouldn’t cover her — she’s a mirror version of your Canada story except she isn’t around to tell the tale. Also having a profit oriented healthcare system hurts America in a global economy.
Healthcare is not a right. Period. It’s a privilege – one the government should get out of. Medicare, SCHIP, and other intrusions have driven prices up and made it where more government is needed.
It’s a sad cycle – government intrusion means you need more in order to make it better, which always makes it worse.
If insurance in total, save for catastrophic needs, was abolished, like it used to be, then people would be better off.
To those 45 million without insurance — if you want it, get a betterjob. If you can’t get a job that provides it — you failed at life.
And to you liberals who think you have to take care of everyone — aren’t you the same people who love the evolution thing? Whatever happened to your belief in survival of the fittest? Gotta love the double standard.
I’ve had health insurance, on my own, since I graduated college. I worked hard, and I have it. Even when I had to buy it privately and not through work. My parents always had it, because they cared enough about us to work hard enough to get it.
People who want to work low-paying, easy jobs don’t deserve things that they haven’t put the effort in for. Get some catostrophic coverage to get started — it’s not expensive at all. Unless you are fat, and in that case, lose some weight. This stuff isn’t that hard, use some common sense.
Get a education, some skill, etc. Geez.
#11 — no system is perfect — but I prefer one that allows me to buy my own health care if I deem it neccessary.
What happened to personal responsiblity? Where were her parents? I know that no insurance company would keep me from getting care for my daughter, no matter what the cost.
I’m so tired of the stupid arguments on both sides that I’m just sick and tired of it. Do the national health care already and get over it.
$935 and hour for 5 hours in the emergency room the other day for a kidney stone diagnosis. Happened on a sunday and called my HMO. They said go to the emergency room because everything else is closed. Sucky insurance with my employer with deductibles means I’ll be paying.
I don’t mind paying. Don’t get me wrong but the cost of the U.S. healthcare is just stupid. Rich people getting richer by the day.
Maybe I should fly to a different country with better healthcare. It would cost me the same and I would get better healthcare.
let me see:
The equipment they NEED and use, is aquired from the USA…Whats the price of this equipment??
In the USA, HOW MANY of us can deal DIRECT with our hospital, under our Health care plans??
THEN add the 20% co-pay..
restrictions ON our health plans..
An OK’ from 2-3 doctors TO the health plan to PROVE that we need it.
THEN the problem that we STILL NEED to work while all this is going on, AS IF’ we arent employed for 30-6 months days, the Health care payments FALL ON US..
AND still, over 1/3 of the USA has NO health insurance..
Wow I never thought this would happen but I agree with the three headed kitty on #6
12,
If you want to keep the Gov out,,,THEN keep the CORPS OUT.. Let the health organization DO THEIR JOB.
17..
THERE SHOULD BE NO COMPETITION…
you should be able to go to ANY Doctor and get GOOD care…
The materials to SUPPLY that care, SHOULD BE CHEAP and reasonable priced.
#6, TriHC,
Well darnit, my old bud, you’re correct, but when it’s you or someone you love, it’s really tough to determine whether or not it should be highly profitable.
I’m not talking about hours or days, I’m talking about years of life. I know some people who paid their own way, and it put them in the lowest tax bracket.
Don’t tell me you want the enormous profit that some doctors now receive vs. someone living that could still contribute to “society.” I know that’s not your intention.
The poor die, the rich live longer.
On hand #2, I’m against treating people with “insurance” that have a common cold or a hangnail that visit a doctor hoping for an immediate cure.
I do not pretend to know what the “fix” is for the current system.
Competition?
It’s never competing to see who can do a better job – it’s competing to see who can do it cheapest.
The profit motive + competition = much – if not most – of the reason America is going down the toilet.
The problem with health care isn’t insurance but the corruption in the government and AMA that keep prices artificially inflated.
Human being are nothing but despicable garbage.
Hey, Universal health care is a great idea. First we enslave doctors, then enslave nurses, then enslave therapists, then enslave EMTs, then enslave construction workers building hospitals, and then … YOU.
Both systems have flaws and benefits. My question for those who want nationalized medical care in the US: Since national medical care will likely be rationed at some point due to costs and limited taxpayer resources, do you think this “free” medical care should also cover the 20 million or so illegal residents of our country?
And how does Canada handle non-residents who need medical care?
#12 –
You’re basing your view of the world on nothing but your own personal life story. This may be shocking, but people have different upbringings, opportunities, societal barriers, and abilities than you do. You even say (obnoxiously) that you had health insurance as a kid because your parents loved you enough. Ignoring all other factors, maybe some poor kid didn’t have parents that loved him enough. Is that his fault? Should we tell him to go screw himself and die because his parents were ass hats? Are you really that heartless?
Furthermore, belief in the reality of evolution has absolutely nothing to do with being a compassionate human being. I could be one of the hypothetical ass hat parents I mentioned above and still be intelligent enough to understand scientific facts.
But if you want to live in your supernatural dream land of sprites and fairies, what about the excuse that evolution makes humans just another animal? Isn’t the reason your god granted us all higher intelligence to go beyond our selfishness and help those less fortunate, even if in the animal world they might be deemed unfit to survive? So where’s the rightiousness from you, oh non-believer in evolution? Did Jesus ever say “go screw yourself you sick leper asshole! Get some skills so you can afford to see a doctor. Too bad your parents didn’t love you enough to keep you healthy in the first place.”?
Seriously, what’s your problem?
There’s no way that private pay healthcare will be banned in the US.
No system is perfect but the Canadian system covers more people for less overall cost than the US.
Yes, a few RICH Canadians fly to the US for healthcare but untold THOUSANDS fly back up to Canada if they find themselves sick in the US.
The heartlness right wing media like to point out that RICH Canadians fly south but never mention that many more middle class Canadians fly the other way for healthcare.
#23==of course emergency medical care should be provided to all who need it.
That in fact is just reason Number 14 to enforce our border controls.
Wait 3-4 months or lose your house. Hmmmmmmmmm…
Australia has a DUAL health system Government Public and Private.
For all non life threatening health issues there was the usual wait, sometimes for months. But for any serious health issues they were taken care of immediately. If there were no beds / services available in the public health sector you would go to the private health sector at if it were public.
People would buy health insurance to not have to wait for all the non life threatening health issues.
I am not sure what they have now as I haven’t lived in Australia since about 1996. So any Aussies reading this please update me.
Cheers
True Canuck medical story:
My wife collapsed outside one day – I can home from work to find her in bed complaining of nausea and a splitting headache. I thought she had the flu and basically left her alone that night to rest. Next morning she’s still throwing up and mumbled something about hitting her head when she passed out. That got my attention and after much arguing finally convinced her to go with me to Emergency.
From the time we got there until we saw the first doctor was 1.5 hours. When she described what happened, the ER doctor ordered an immediate CT scan. This showed blood on her brain – an aneurysm had leaked slightly, causing her symptoms. They shipped her immediately to another hospital with a neurosurgery unit. Operated the next morning, clamped the aneurysm and saved her life (surgeon described it as “very ugly – a number of small bulges, difficult to clamp”). What followed was 8 days in ICU, another 10 days in a stroke recovery ward and a month in a rehabilitation hospital. Total out of pocket expense: about $100 in parking while visiting her (I got monthly passes – that why parking was so cheap). She was not working at the time and so didn’t lose any salary and my employer told me to worry about my wife, not my job. I didn’t lose any salary due to absences.
The argument is not really about health *care* at all. It is about health *insurance*, which is very profitable. The US has no system, and millions are excluded from it.
Canadian Health care is not free, but it is insurance, in which risk is spread.
So, I’m trying to figure out where exactly this means the canadian system is worse than the USA’s or others…
Sorry, bub… This is a doctor shortage problem.
Why is there a shortage? A number of reasons, but one good one is that in the USA, you can get $28k for doing brain surgery. Why work in Canada when you can go to the USA? It’s called a brain drain… and it’s feeding the corporate healthcare engine in the USA.
There is certainly a major problem in the Canadian system, long waiting periods (love to see actual stats on this that indicate a significant number of people are dying because of it), but I don’t think there are nearly as many major problems. Everyone has equal rights to healthcare… that’s the point. Why should someone jump queue? They shouldn’t. The queue issue does have to be addressed…
It should be noted that many US insurers restrict their clients to certain doctors with similar results.
I think the questions to ask are:
1. What would have happened if they didn’t have $28k to spend? Or no money to spend at all? Would they have gone south still without money? Would they have had to wait? Would they have gotten the same results?
2. What would have happened to a similarly uninsured person in the USA? Would they have even gotten as far as the GP? I doubt it. (now keep in mind, this isn’t exactly fair, since everyone in Canada in theory, pays taxes for their healthcare “insurance”.)
My wife is a GP in Canada and does deliveries. She get’s about $500 per delivery. Doesn’t matter if it take 2 hours or 28 hours. How much would that cost in the USA?
I think this is just an ad for people with $28k to spend and a health issue. If you have the money, spend it. If not, get in line. I think the signal being sent is, there is a monster in the closet next door… go there if you want to pay. Otherwise, we’re keep our’s private.
#12 I do not believe I have read such an ignorant and naive post on this board in a very long time.
You are obviously young and ignorant as to the ways of the world.
You do not get what you want in this world by working hard, you get it by lying cheating stealing and and being a bastard. That is what you will learn soon enough.
The world is not a level playing field. Life is not just. You will find this out soon enough.
American healthcare is the best in the industrialized world? How about the *worst*:
http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN07651650
And do we pay the least per capita? No, we pay the most:
http://www.pkarchive.org/column/082704.html
Can anyone doubt we are truly messed up in this country on this issue?